Feedback on the DT Swiss RR 440 Asymmetric Rim?

[bluesea]

For 11 speed Campy. I was thinking 32h F/R (Campy hubs). Maybe 2x DT Comp in the front--not too sure about the spokes and lacing pattern for the rear.

[tv_vt]

Don't know about the asymetric rim, but the regular 440 rim is really nice. RT Wheelcraft built me a set recently and the ride is great.

[bluesea]

Can you share the build details?

[mcteague]

I have new pair of wheels built by Joe Young. He recommended the 440 with the OC in the rear and I also ride Campagnolo. I have only had them a week but they are fine, not that I expected any worse. I have a 5 year old pair he built using DT 415 rims, with single eyelet. Lots of people said they were not strong enough but I have not had any issues in all this time. DT makes good rims, just make sure you go to a decent builder.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

For 11 speed Campy. I was thinking 32h F/R (Campy hubs). Maybe 2x DT Comp in the front--not too sure about the spokes and lacing pattern for the rear.

Just built a couple, great DT quality, Record hubs and DT comp spokes, 32, 3 cross, brass nipps. MUCH easier to get a tire on(they listened!!). In spite of some wingnuts on some of their websites, OC rims are NOT 'required' for Campagnolo and now, DA9000 hubs(same RH ctr to flange as Campag). OC helps all wheels, not just Campag.

ONLY 'issue' with the DT 440 is availability(none in the distributors till end of March, beginning of April) and cost-about $115 per rim, retail.

IMHO-no reason whatsoever to do anything other than 3 cross with 32 spokes. 2 cross saves you less than one spoke weight-silly.

[bluesea]

Just built a couple, great DT quality, Record hubs and DT comp spokes, 32, 3 cross, brass nipps. MUCH easier to get a tire on(they listened!!). In spite of some wingnuts on some of their websites, OC rims are NOT 'required' for Campagnolo and now, DA9000 hubs(same RH ctr to flange as Campag). OC helps all wheels, not just Campag.

ONLY 'issue' with the DT 440 is availability(none in the distributors till end of March, beginning of April) and cost-about $115 per rim, retail.

IMHO-no reason whatsoever to do anything other than 3 cross with 32 spokes. 2 cross saves you less than one spoke weight-silly.



Is not the 2x option for a stiffer front wheel? Not that I'd be able to detect it but, still a positive atribute is it not?

Have decided to pass on the OC rear. Do heavier drive side spoke lacings (Revo/Comp) make a more durable wheel?

[majorpat]

I've got a set of 440's (assym rear) with ultegra hubs that Old Potatoe built for me. I think they are a revelation but you'd be smart to take Peter's advice on the techical build details.

[TPetsch]

I just had a set of the RR440's built up W/King R45 hubs. 32 hole front built up with Supercomp spokes 2cross and rear 32 asymmetrical with Supercomps on the NDS and Comps on the DS both sides 3cross, black anodized aluminum nipples all round. Came out to exactly 1600 grams for the set. I have heard that the anodizing process on aluminum nipples make them a smidge stronger than the basic non-anodized ones. I'm 215 pounds and these are solid as a rock, not a peep out of them no matter how hard I drive up an incline, no flex or brake rub detected and somewhat complaint feeling too. Also IMO, DT swiss didn't jump in head first with the whole wide rim thing going overboard, they went to a nice middle average of 21mm outer diameter unlike the new SL23's @ 24mm which is really wide IMO, I don't really ride on crappy roads much if I can help it.

[bluesea]

Re-decided to go OC rear, and let the builder advise on spoke choice.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=125874

[oldpotatoe]

For 11 speed Campy. I was thinking 32h F/R (Campy hubs). Maybe 2x DT Comp in the front--not too sure about the spokes and lacing pattern for the rear.

Built about 8 of them. I like 'em..single eyelet so proper tension is a must..AND....smaller, ala Mavic, easy to get tires on.

ONLY bad news is they are expensive..$115 at my house.

AND 2 cross on 32 doesn't do anything for the wheel..in terms of ride or anything else. 32-3 cross.

[bluesea]

Roger that.

[oldpotatoe]

Is not the 2x option for a stiffer front wheel? Not that I'd be able to detect it but, still a positive atribute is it not?

Have decided to pass on the OC rear. Do heavier drive side spoke lacings (Revo/Comp) make a more durable wheel?

No..no such thing as a free lunch..thicker spokes on both sides more durable than thin spokes on NDS, all else being equal.

[bluesea]

W-o-o-o, thanks!

[saab2000]

O/C rear rims make for a stronger, stiffer wheel.

There's a reason Campagnolo, Shimano and Mavic use asymmetrical rear rims on their production wheels.

There are no negatives and only positives when building with asymmetric rims. Front and rear wheels are not the same and undergo many different stresses.

[Mark McM]

No..no such thing as a free lunch..thicker spokes on both sides more durable than thin spokes on NDS, all else being equal.

For highly dished wheels, using thinner spokes on the NDS (non-drive side) may actually be more durable. For highly dished wheels, NDS spokes are at very low tension compared to the drive-side (DS) spokes. If the tension is too low, the spokes may occasionally go completely slack under load - and wheels with spokes that go slack are less durable. Thinner spokes are more elastic, so they have more stretch under a given static pre-tension, and are less likely to go completely slack under load.

[Mark McM]

O/C rear rims make for a stronger, stiffer wheel.


That's actually not true. For the same flange spacing, increasing dish actually increases stiffness. This is because the spokes' contribution to lateral stiffness is proportional to the square of the sine of their bracing angle. The increase in lateral stiffness due to the increased bracing angle on one side of a dished wheel is greater than the loss of lateral stiffness due to the decreased bracing angle on the other side of the wheel. (Note: The reason that rear wheels typically have less lateral stiffness than fronts is not because they are dished, it is because they have narrower spacing between the flanges.)

There's a reason Campagnolo, Shimano and Mavic use asymmetrical rear rims on their production wheels.

Yes, but it's not due to stiffness issues. Highly dished wheels introduce other problems, related to the tension differentials. The highly tensioned right spokes are more likely to cause rim/flange failures, and the low tension left spokes are more likely to go slack under load, leading to wheel instability.

[saab2000]

It may be a total placebo effect but the wheels I've built with asymmetric rims seem stronger and stiffer when I ride them.

I can present no scientific evidence but I like mine. They've been flawless all Velocity rims.

[reidbeloni]

I'm really interested in this rim. It looks to have a tubeless profile, has anyone tried and had success with road tubeless on this rim?

[bikinchris]

It may be a total placebo effect but the wheels I've built with asymmetric rims seem stronger and stiffer when I ride them.

I can present no scientific evidence but I like mine. They've been flawless all Velocity rims.

I can tell you that spoke tension on wheels with OC rims are more equal and THAT makes a more durable wheel.

[campy man]

Just had Vecchios build a wheelset with Campy Record hubs, DT 14/15 spokes, 32H.

Great riding wheelset with only 2 issues;
- tire hard to get off and on
- initial problems with rim tape too narrow exposed spoke holes causing cut tube

Ride quality is great and plan to keep the wheelset for a very long time.

[oldpotatoe]

I can tell you that spoke tension on wheels with OC rims are more equal and THAT makes a more durable wheel.

That's true, no doubt about it. Wish more rims were OC but more expensive to do that. And some makers, like mavic, are so intrenched in what they think is a 'good' wheel(and rear hub for that matter), they will never change in spite of all that is better, around them.

[JeffWarner]

I understand from a builder's perspective why an offset rim makes sense. But are there any downsides to the RR440 Asymmetric rim durability? The Fairwheelbike Rim roundup makes the comment "in the past we’ve found that asymmetric rims have tended to have higher failure rates unless the rim is reinforced and weight added to the extrusion". Does the DT Swiss rim fall into this catagory?

Background. I have a pair of DT Swiss 440 (asymmetric rear) (32 hole, 14/15 spokes, laced 3x) on Dura Ace 9000 Hubs that developed cracks around the rear wheel's drive side eyelets. Mileage was ~3000 miles on the set. While it may be an over tension issue, the builder is swapping out the rim at no charge to me. I have the option to use the same 440 asymmetric rim or the regular 440 rim. If the 440 asymmetric has durability issues described by Fairwheel bikes, I plan to switch rims.

[tv_vt]

Funny - I thought this was a new thread and was going to say how much I can't stand them - and there's me saying how nice they are on pg 1. Just goes sto how opinions can change. I came to dislike them after flatting a few times on the road. With a full size frame pump, I found it nearly impossible to get the tire to seat itself on the rim after replacing the tube. Caused a whole lotta frustration multiple times.

Sold every damn pair of those rims I had.

[JasonF]

Funny - I thought this was a new thread and was going to say how much I can't stand them - and there's me saying how nice they are on pg 1. Just goes sto how opinions can change. I came to dislike them after flatting a few times on the road. With a full size frame pump, I found it nearly impossible to get the tire to seat itself on the rim after replacing the tube. Caused a whole lotta frustration multiple times.

Sold every damn pair of those rims I had.

100% agree.

I had a set that saw very little road time (definitely under 250 miles) and I wasn't crazy about the difficulty in mounting certain tires. Sure, I understand that you should push the beads into the center of the rim, use the right tape, yadda yadda but when there are other rims out there with ZERO fit issues (shout out to HED C2's), why deal with the hassle? Oh yeah, it sounds like the wheel is going to explode when the tire's bead finally makes its way out of the rim channel and is seated.

[JeffWarner]

Funny - I thought this was a new thread and was going to say how much I can't stand them - and there's me saying how nice they are on pg 1. Just goes sto how opinions can change. I came to dislike them after flatting a few times on the road. With a full size frame pump, I found it nearly impossible to get the tire to seat itself on the rim after replacing the tube. Caused a whole lotta frustration multiple times.

I agree with you on the tire issues, they can be a bit of a pain in the a$$ to change a tire. I was glad I got the "opportunity" to practice at home a few times before I had to do it on the road side. Pinched a few tubes before I learned about putting the bead in the center channel. Never trusted C02 to seat the tire 100% of the time, so started carrying a mini pump as insurance if I used my two cartridges.

[oldpotatoe]

I understand from a builder's perspective why an offset rim makes sense. But are there any downsides to the RR440 Asymmetric rim durability? The Fairwheelbike Rim roundup makes the comment "in the past we’ve found that asymmetric rims have tended to have higher failure rates unless the rim is reinforced and weight added to the extrusion". Does the DT Swiss rim fall into this catagory?

Background. I have a pair of DT Swiss 440 (asymmetric rear) (32 hole, 14/15 spokes, laced 3x) on Dura Ace 9000 Hubs that developed cracks around the rear wheel's drive side eyelets. Mileage was ~3000 miles on the set. While it may be an over tension issue, the builder is swapping out the rim at no charge to me. I have the option to use the same 440 asymmetric rim or the regular 440 rim. If the 440 asymmetric has durability issues described by Fairwheel bikes, I plan to switch rims.

I don't see how an OC rim, with the RH spokes tensioned correctly, having the LH spokes be higher tension(but still less than RH side) be the cause for eyelets pulling out. I have built hundreds of OC and non OC rear rims and on decent quality rims, built to an accepted 100-110 kgf, have seen no issues. That includes a LOT of DT440. There is nothing inherit to OC rim design that contributes to eyelet failure.

[JeffWarner]

I don't see how an OC rim, with the RH spokes tensioned correctly, having the LH spokes be higher tension(but still less than RH side) be the cause for eyelets pulling out. I have built hundreds of OC and non OC rear rims and on decent quality rims, built to an accepted 100-110 kgf, have seen no issues. That includes a LOT of DT440. There is nothing inherit to OC rim design that contributes to eyelet failure.

Thanks, good feeback.

In my case, I'm pretty sure it was an over tension issue that cracked the rim vs a design issue. I "think" the OC cracking issue Fairwheel Bike talked about is more from the offset load ... torque load ... of the spokes not pulling inline with the rim and potentially causing some issues. Once again, I think this was related to a certain rims from Velocity. If your seeing good life from properly built 440 OC rim, that's a good sign.

[dustyrider]

I love dt Swiss. They're just down the street from me and I like to support them since they do so much for our riding scene. It also helps that their products kick serious...you know. I have a set of 440 rims laced to 240s 32 hole 3x double butted and brass nips. The rear is oc. They're solid! Come to think of it 5 bikes of my 6 bikes are currently adorned with dt Swiss.

[Bob Ross]

There are no negatives and only positives when building with asymmetric rims.

Having recently aquired my first RR440 Asymmetrical rim, I discovered a minor negative of offset spokes:

It is a bitch to get 16mm rim tape to adequately cover the spoke holes!

[oldpotatoe]

Having recently aquired my first RR440 Asymmetrical rim, I discovered a minor negative of offset spokes:

It is a bitch to get 16mm rim tape to adequately cover the spoke holes!

Use 18 or tubeless tape.

[JeffWarner]

Use 18 or tubeless tape.

I'd recommend wider .... I had 18 mm snap on plastic rim strips and they slid around a bit. 19-20 mm products seem to fit better.

Does the tubeless tape (pacenti, stan's, orange seal) leave a sticky residue when puled off and how hard is it to clean up before applying fresh tape?

[TimD]

I built up a 440 OC rear on a 32h DT 240s last year. It came out well, IMO. It is paired with a DT 415 / DT 240s front. Both are laced 3X.

Not sure what to compare it to as I've been using 32h DT rims for some time (though I built a HED Belgium rear about 2 years ago and have been riding it since).

I weigh about 190 lbs, FWIW.

[tuxbailey]

I have them with Record hubs. Got them from the classifieds and originally built by OldPotatoes.

I like how they ride and looks. My only issues are difficulties to mount tires. I accidentally pinched some tubes while mounting so I have to be careful. Specially on the road.

[soulspinner]

DT 460 rear and 415 front here. No issues but but good 2 know an OC rear exists.

[oldpotatoe]

DT 460 rear and 415 front here. No issues but but good 2 know an OC rear exists.

Latest gen. Velocity A23 has a rear OC also. QC issues seem to be over. Built lots, good rims.

[mcteague]

Joe Young built me a pair using the 440 OC rear rim. I use the DT rim strip and while the tires are a bit tight its nothing I can't deal with. Still completely true after 2 years and I have never even touched them with a spoke wrench.

Tim

[JasonF]

I have them with Record hubs. Got them from the classifieds and originally built by OldPotatoes.

I like how they ride and looks. My only issues are difficulties to mount tires. I accidentally pinched some tubes while mounting so I have to be careful. Specially on the road.

Lol, that was my wheelset that I purchased from bumknees and then sold to Sean...glad you like them - 32 f/r should be bombproof. Plus they were built by a true pro.

[metalheart]

Curious about what tires (brand and size) others use with this rim. I use Schawalbe One clinchers in 25mm, but it is time for new tires and I am looking for options.....

[Bob Ross]

Curious about what tires (brand and size) others use with this rim.

I'm using 23mm Conti GP4000S II.

[dustyrider]

I lucked out and scored a couple sets of open corsa cx in 25c on velomine for cheap. They mount up easy, keep a nice voluminous shape and feel like I'm riding pillows that can some how corner on rails... When they're all gone, I'll go for the new graphene stuff in a 25c. Assuming the mounted profiles will be similar. Seems folks like the rubber.