Firefly carbon tubes ti lugs

[Mikej]

On the tumblr

[Tony T]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8530327285_662bf787a4_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/8530327285/in/photostream/lightbox/)

[Joachim]

Yeah baby!

[Climb01742]

hope tyler chimes in and tells us more.

[Joachim]

hope tyler chimes in and tells us more.

I hope so too, since I just clicked on the little banner thingy and found no info.

[MattTuck]

I thought mixed material frames were soooo 2008.... :rolleyes:


Maybe they're coming back :help:





I say that, of course, in jest. It is a beautiful looking machine.

[Joachim]

I thought mixed material frames were soooo 2008.... :rolleyes:



Yes they are! Just like square taper bb's. :) And yes, I have a man crush on that frame. Good thing there is a Peg on the way.

[mcteague]

Just got my Seven 622 SLX a few days ago. I'll post pictures when I get some decent ones. I, too, had my doubts about frames made from different materials but took a big leap as I trust Seven Cycles. I have had 3 rides so far and absolutely love the thing. It may sound like tripe from Bicycling magazine but it really rides smooth, stable but quick and feels really stiff when climbing. Plus, it just looks freakin' amazing.

Tim

[Climb01742]

can't quite explain why but i'm intrigued by carbon/ti mixes. has anyone seen a good, detail explanation by a builder of what carbon/ti does together that carbon or ti alone don't?

[Bob Ross]

I thought mixed material frames were soooo 2008....

That was certainly my first thought as well. That thing looks like a Seven




...a Really Fcuking Good-looking Seven!

[SoCalSteve]

can't quite explain why but i'm intrigued by carbon/ti mixes. has anyone seen a good, detail explanation by a builder of what carbon/ti does together that carbon or ti alone don't?

Not a builder, nor do I play one on TV, but all I can say is my Ottrott is the best riding , handling, feeling bike I have ever owned ( and I've owned quite a few)...

[tv_vt]

I don't know what the latest fashion is for frames, but I love my Serotta Fierte IT. It may be considered a cheap Serotta by some, but it's a fantastic frame - smooth, stiff, stable. OK, it's not the lightest frame on the road, but that's OK with me.


Thom

PS. Cheap Serottas aren't cheap, either...

[Dave B]

Not a builder, nor do I play one on TV, but all I can say is my Ottrott is the best riding , handling, feeling bike I have ever owned ( and I've owned quite a few)...

Demoed a Nove' a few years back for a weekend. It was fantastic. So stable and very high level of comfort on long long rides.

I know this sounds stupid, but I have always thought it would be simple to have a ti bike (in a line) and then cut tubes and put carbon tubes in it.

I remember Matt Bracken telling a story of how the initial IF XS came about and that is almost exaclty how he described it. People freaked, but it worked out well for IF.

I am sure it is difficult to pull off, but always looks cool.

and Ottrott is one of my dream bikes. I was so close to buying Scott's (from Serotta) Ottrott cross bike. Still bummed on that one.

[ergott]

Not sure of the details, but Serotta used to say the Ottrott has the best ride quality of any in their lineup and rides more like steel.

My guess is having carbon for the downtube and toptube keeps the front triangle stiff and still gives you a titanium-like ride. I don't think the seattube matters other than that a carbon tube might be lighter.

[Dave B]

Not sure of the details, but Serotta used to say the Ottrott has the best ride quality of any in their lineup and rides more like steel.

My guess is having carbon for the downtube and toptube keeps the front triangle stiff and still gives you a titanium-like ride. I don't think the seattube matters other than that a carbon tube might be lighter.

I have heard this as well. The carbon doesn't compress/flex in a ST application that improves the ride. I have no idea, but I suppose the logic is plausible.

[ultraman6970]

Like this one a lot, how do that mix rides?? the carbon for stiffness and Ti for comfort or something? Ti lugs with carbon tubes would look sick too.

[shovelhd]

Looks comfy.

[54ny77]

Yowza.

That's nice. Really diggin' the looks of the seatstay junction.

Every single bike maker, big or small, could take a lesson or three from the Firefly guys on how to present and photograph their bikes. I'm blown away just about every time I see something in the images gallery.

[victoryfactory]

Yep, I've heard the same good things about Ottrott.
Would love to try one.
When they first came out, I assumed it was an attempt to
incorporate carbon into a bike frame without full carbon manufacturing tooling.
It can be done in a metal frame based operation. You can make any custom
sizes. The "Frankenstein" bike. Something I could envision and bike builder
might like to experiment with.
If it hadn't been so good riding, it may have just ended up as another prototype
up on the top shelf of the warehouse.
But it turned out to be a great bike.


VF

[Elefantino]

External cable routing.

Hmmm...

[SamIAm]

Haven't really heard from too many Ottrott owners that didn't love their bike.

Whoever pointed out that Firefly does an awesome job with photography is right on the money.

I will be very interested in the pricing on this frame and how it compares to the Ottrott. If its less, then Bill will get a chance to fulfill his commitment to become price competitive or communicate (in ways that matter to customers) what justifies the premium.

[pdmtong]

That was certainly my first thought as well. That thing looks like a Seven
...a Really Fcuking Good-looking Seven!

not exactly, the carbon and ti implementation is more like an IF XS.

if you look at an elium versus an ottrott versus a XS, the carbon tubes are all in different places. not sure if this is due to copy cat avoidance or some yet to be articulated design philosphy

[Dave B]

not exactly, the carbon and ti implementation is more like an IF XS.

if you look at an elium versus an ottrott versus a XS, the carbon tubes are all in different places. not sure if this is due to copy cat avoidance or some yet to be articulated design philosphy

All of the bikes that have the carbon tubes with ti lugs kind of look the same. Sure there might be subtle differences. However, I am curious if there really could be a difference in the ride. I would imagine tube thickness, carbon lay up etc. IF just updated their XS with OS tubes and lugs. I would be interested to see how it is different then the FF or an older XS, Ottrott, etc and see if there is a sweet combo that nails it.

[pdmtong]

All of the bikes that have the carbon tubes with ti lugs kind of look the same. Sure there might be subtle differences. However, I am curious if there really could be a difference in the ride.

all 3 use ti for the chainstays
all 3 use carbon for the seatstays

only IF uses carbon for the three main tubes

serotta uses a carbon DT, seven uses ti

serotta uses a ti seattube, seven uses carbon

there must be a design reason but I have never found one.

of the three, the XS looks like the most excuse for a MM bike by a ti builder bridging its way to carbon. the others, simply by mixing materials more "imply" some kind of design thought.

there might be a pony in there. there might not

my ottrott does ride very nicely though.

[akelman]

Mine is another voice in the "an Ottrott is the most comfortable and best performing bike I've ever ridden" chorus. And I, too, have ridden a lot of bikes. If Joachim ever gets tired of the Ottrott I sold him, he knows where to find me.

[54ny77]

question: who did the first carbon-ti bike? merlin's cycrene, serotta's ottrott, or [ ]?

[Elefantino]

all 3 use ti for the chainstays
all 3 use carbon for the seatstays

only IF uses carbon for the three main tubes

serotta uses a carbon DT, seven uses ti

serotta uses a ti seattube, seven uses carbon

there must be a design reason but I have never found one.

of the three, the XS looks like the most excuse for a MM bike by a ti builder bridging its way to carbon. the others, simply by mixing materials more "imply" some kind of design thought.

there might be a pony in there. there might not

my ottrott does ride very nicely though.
Don't forget the bike line formerly known as LeMond.

http://www.englishcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lemond11.jpg

[EnginCycle]

question: who did the first carbon-ti bike? merlin's cycrene, serotta's ottrott, or [ ]?

In 1990 Merlin made the ti/carbon bikes that Tomac used. I actually think it was before Merlin sold this type product but they made the first ones. Litespeed (now Lynskey) then stepped in and made them for production purposes. Mixed material is nothing new but glue technology has really gotten better in the past decade. Most bonding issues of the past are bad technique combined with less than great glue.

-Drew

[mcteague]

all 3 use ti for the chainstays
all 3 use carbon for the seatstays

only IF uses carbon for the three main tubes

serotta uses a carbon DT, seven uses ti

serotta uses a ti seattube, seven uses carbon

there must be a design reason but I have never found one.

of the three, the XS looks like the most excuse for a MM bike by a ti builder bridging its way to carbon. the others, simply by mixing materials more "imply" some kind of design thought.

there might be a pony in there. there might not

my ottrott does ride very nicely though.
Seven offers some of each. The Elium line have more Ti while the new 622 SLX has carbon HT,DT,ST, TT and seat stays. Only the CS, BB and lugs are Ti.

Tim

[pbarry]

In 1990 Merlin made the ti/carbon bikes that Tomac used. I actually think it was before Merlin sold this type product but they made the first ones. Litespeed (now Lynskey) then stepped in and made them for production purposes. Mixed material is nothing new but glue technology has really gotten better in the past decade. Most bonding issues of the past are bad technique combined with less than great glue.

-Drew
Yes. Merlin welded the lug, BB, and drop out assemblies for the Epic Ultimate. Specialized shipped the machined pieces and custom lug fixtures to Somerville where they were prepped and welded, then shipped back to Specialized, who bonded the tubes and lugs. No way Specialized made money on those. Incredibly well done product tho!

[54ny77]

come to think of it, were the old exxon "graphite" bikes mixed material?

i can't remember back that far, hazy memory....

In 1990 Merlin made the ti/carbon bikes that Tomac used. I actually think it was before Merlin sold this type product but they made the first ones. Litespeed (now Lynskey) then stepped in and made them for production purposes. Mixed material is nothing new but glue technology has really gotten better in the past decade. Most bonding issues of the past are bad technique combined with less than great glue.

-Drew

[93legendti]

Not a builder, nor do I play one on TV, but all I can say is my Ottrott is the best riding , handling, feeling bike I have ever owned ( and I've owned quite a few)...

Add me to the list of Ottrott fans. It's my favorite bike.

I've always thought that the ti carbon joinings had a way of preventing "bad" road vibrations from impacting the rider because the meeting of the carbon and ti tubes help to dissipate, rather than transmit, the shocks from the road, due to the dissimilar materials.
Also, that the carbon in the TT optimizes the amount of torsional flex, as opposed to a one piece TT.

I could be dead wrong....all I know is that I love riding mine.

[pbarry]

come to think of it, were the old exxon "graphite" bikes mixed material?

i can't remember back that far, hazy memory....

Yes.

[v531xc]

Yes. Merlin welded the lug assemblies for the Epic. Specialized shipped the machined pieces and lug fixtures to Somerville where they were prepped and welded, then shipped back to Specialized, who bonded the tubes and lugs. No way Specialized made money on those. Incredibly well done product tho!

Mike Lopez of Serotta Composites did the bonding of those Epics. He and Bruce Gordon did those two really awesome 650b ti lugged carbon bikes on the same jig iirc.

This Firefly looks really rad.

[54ny77]

whoa! there's some vintageness right there.

i can remember seeing those at a little bike shop in corona del mar (sourthern cal) in the early-mid 80's.

might as well had been a spaceship for all i knew at the time.

Yes.

[Joachim]

Just got my Seven 622 SLX a few days ago.

Tim

I've been eyeing one of those :)

[dd74]

Man! Firefly's really putting out some nice frames.

[mcteague]

I've been eyeing one of those :)

I've had a Seven Axiom for 10 years and have had a tough time figuring out what to do to improve its ride. After testing a Parlee Z5, that had nearly the exact dimensions as my Axiom, I was happy to back to my bike. The one thing I did prefer was the stiff feeling while climbing on the all carbon bike.

I contacted Seven and they assured me they could improve the stiffness of my bike while maintaining the comfort. I only have about 60 miles on the 622 but I am more than happy. The wheels and tires are nearly the same on both bikes, Joe Young DT wheels and Michelin 25s, so that helps keep the comparison fairly equal. The fit is even better, but I'm sure I have shrunk a bit in the last decade. It climbs like a carbon bike but has nice road feel, something many carbon bikes lack. Bad pavement feels much more muted than on the Parlee I tested. Plus, the 622 looks so cool. BTW, the name refers to the atomic numbers of carbon (6) and Ti(22).

Tim

[nmrt]

firefly is asking $6500 for this frameset. price includes a tapered ENVE fork (2.0 i think).

in comparison: serotta ottrott is $7495 (custom frame and fork)
could not find price on the seven 622 slx

[pdmtong]

Presumably FF, IF and seven source their tubes from enve. does anyone know differently?

I would think the tubes for the ottrott come out of Poway. The diameter of the DT on my ottrott is larger at the BB than it is at the HT. I think the TT is tapered as well but I would need to go look at it to re-confirm. The SSs are curved. Can/does enve supply tubing like this to the other three?

I have no doubt tyler builds a great bike. questions here are more about design philosophy when it comes to mixed material.

[Joachim]

could not find price on the seven 622 slx

2012 Price for frame and fork: $5540

[pdmtong]

big dollar gaps

$5500 seven

$6000 IF

$6500 FF

$7500 serotta

the crown lugging on the XS cannot be denied.
love the FF aesthetic - brings a nice freshness to the concept
no one rides a seven around here anymore. priced to grab share?
the ottrott ride...so smooth. tracks great. climbs great. doesnt snap but quietly winds up and next thing you know you are going 25+..very performance lexus like.

[mcteague]

Presumably FF, IF and seven source their tubes from enve. does anyone know differently?

I would think the tubes for the ottrott come out of Poway. The diameter of the DT on my ottrott is larger at the BB than it is at the HT. I think the TT is tapered as well but I would need to go look at it to re-confirm. The SSs are curved. Can/does enve supply tubing like this to the other three?

I have no doubt tyler builds a great bike. questions here are more about design philosophy when it comes to mixed material.

Don't know about the others, but Seven have their filament wound tubes custom made by Rock West Composites (http://www.rockwestcomposites.com/browse/round-carbon-fiber-tubing/filament-wound-carbon-tubing).

Tim

[merlinmurph]

firefly is asking $6500 for this frameset. price includes a tapered ENVE fork (2.0 i think).

in comparison: serotta ottrott is $7495 (custom frame and fork)
could not find price on the seven 622 slx

That price makes their all ti frame look like a veritable bargain @ $4K :banana:

[54ny77]

hmmmm, i'm in process of building out a closet....could use about 8' of carbon tube to hang clothes from instead of typical poplar or fir dowel....

would that be fashionably compliant or economically stiff?

Don't know about the others, but Seven have their filament wound tubes custom made by Rock West Composites (http://www.rockwestcomposites.com/browse/round-carbon-fiber-tubing/filament-wound-carbon-tubing).

Tim

[Ahneida Ride]

can't quite explain why but i'm intrigued by carbon/ti mixes. has anyone seen a good, detail explanation by a builder of what carbon/ti does together that carbon or ti alone don't?

I can't say why .... But I have to remark that the Ottrott I rode was
amazing. It' no gimmick.

[bicycletricycle]

ride quality, build quality aside.

it is really amazing how dated this kind of bike looks to my eyes.

[bfd]

big dollar gaps

$5500 seven

$6000 IF

$6500 FF

$7500 serotta

the crown lugging on the XS cannot be denied.
love the FF aesthetic - brings a nice freshness to the concept
no one rides a seven around here anymore. priced to grab share?
the ottrott ride...so smooth. tracks great. climbs great. doesnt snap but quietly winds up and next thing you know you are going 25+..very performance lexus like.


Yow, these prices seem very high. Can anyone say how the Holland Exogrid compares? At about $4900 for the exogrid with ti seat stays; $4600 for the isogrid with carbon seat stays, Holland seems like the perfect mix of ti and carbon:

http://www.hollandcycles.com/bikes/basics

Good Luck!

[SPOKE]

come to think of it, were the old exxon "graphite" bikes mixed material?

i can't remember back that far, hazy memory....

Yep, carbon wrapped aluminum tubes glued into cast 17-4PH stainless lugs.
Pretty neat in its day. Seat stay caps tended to break where attached to the seat lug.

[SPOKE]

firefly is asking $6500 for this frameset. price includes a tapered ENVE fork (2.0 i think).

in comparison: serotta ottrott is $7495 (custom frame and fork)
could not find price on the seven 622 slx

$1k for ST bearing pivot, multiple tube choices (for ride quality tuning) & fork stiffness/rake choices.
Not sure if all these choices are worth the extra coin to most. I own one of the first generation Ottrott's with Ti seat & chain stays as well as the first version of the Carbon mono-stay with the ST pivot. Love them both. And I do think it's the most tunable frame in the Serotta offering.

[SPOKE]

Presumably FF, IF and seven source their tubes from enve. does anyone know differently?

I would think the tubes for the ottrott come out of Poway. The diameter of the DT on my ottrott is larger at the BB than it is at the HT. I think the TT is tapered as well but I would need to go look at it to re-confirm. The SSs are curved. Can/does enve supply tubing like this to the other three?

I have no doubt tyler builds a great bike. questions here are more about design philosophy when it comes to mixed material.

Yep, tapered carbon tubes from Poway. Tapered Ti swayed in Saratoga Springs.

[Joachim]

http://fireflybicycles.com/road-ti-carbon

[54ny77]

this is cool:

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/FF-191-Studio-101-1024x712.jpg

[William]

seven

IF

FF

serotta

Holland

Different strokes for different folks!!
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/waving-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Evil/SatanBanana.gif http://www.highdefjunkies.com/images/smilies/banana_smiley_42.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Food/IrishDancingBanana.gif http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/green-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Alcohol/DrunkBanana.gif




:)
William

[bicycletricycle]

i always think that articulated stovepipe style of fabrication looks super ghetto.

probably because it is.

[54ny77]

here's the itsy-bitsy version:

http://cdn3.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2012/03/03/2/english_light_rear_end_600.jpg

[pbarry]

Timeless. :)

[Serotta_Carbon]

$1k for ST bearing pivot, multiple tube choices (for ride quality tuning) & fork stiffness/rake choices.
Not sure if all these choices are worth the extra coin to most. I own one of the first generation Ottrott's with Ti seat & chain stays as well as the first version of the Carbon mono-stay with the ST pivot. Love them both. And I do think it's the most tunable frame in the Serotta offering.

While the Ottrott is quite tunable I believe the Meivici and it's all carbon construction gives us slightly more options....

I have both and while I like the Ottrott I seem to spend more time on my Meivici. Perhaps I'm just drawn to it cause it's the bike I'd wanted to design & build since the 70s.....

[dd74]

Wow, an Ottrott vs. a Meivici would be a happy problem for someone with the coin. In fact, to decide on any of these frames would be a happy problem.

But damn, they're pricey. :eek:

[dd74]

While the Ottrott is quite tunable I believe the Meivici and it's all carbon construction gives us slightly more options....

I have both and while I like the Ottrott I seem to spend more time on my Meivici. Perhaps I'm just drawn to it cause it's the bike I'd wanted to design & build since the 70s.....
Mike, PM'd you a question. Thx.

[Climb01742]

While the Ottrott is quite tunable I believe the Meivici and it's all carbon construction gives us slightly more

Mike, could you expand on that a bit? Can you tune carbon lugs in ways you can't tune ti lugs, or is it another area that's more tunable?

Also, could you discuss why, in an ottrott, specific tubes are carbon and others are ti? What about each tube's 'job' or stresses better suits carbon or ti?

Thanks.

[SPOKE]

Wow, an Ottrott vs. a Meivici would be a happy problem for someone with the coin. In fact, to decide on any of these frames would be a happy problem.

But damn, they're pricey. :eek:

Well, as Mike knows I have the Meivici too....:)
I also know he put in a tremendous amount of design and engineering effort on all aspects of the Meivici so he has every right to be a "proud papa".....:)
And I have to say I am huge fan of the work Mike does and has done.

[Jeff N.]

seven

IF

FF

serotta

Holland

Different strokes for different folks!!
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/waving-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Evil/SatanBanana.gif http://www.highdefjunkies.com/images/smilies/banana_smiley_42.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Food/IrishDancingBanana.gif http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/green-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Alcohol/DrunkBanana.gif




:)
William
Over Easy

Over Hard.

Scrambled.

Sunny Side Up.

Poached.

Different Yokes for different folks.:rolleyes:

[Jeff N.]

Yow, these prices seem very high. Can anyone say how the Holland Exogrid compares? At about $4900 for the exogrid with ti seat stays; $4600 for the isogrid with carbon seat stays, Holland seems like the perfect mix of ti and carbon:

http://www.hollandcycles.com/bikes/basics

Good Luck!My Holland ISOGRID comes closest to the type of bikes talked about here. It delivers a very lively ride. I like lively. Jeff N.

[Joachim]

My Holland ISOGRID comes closest to the type of bikes talked about here. It delivers a very lively ride. I like lively. Jeff N.

I am planning to demo an exogrid in November when I am visiting San Diego.

[Peter B]

I had a chance to talk with Bill at length about his work at NAHBS 2012 and came away very impressed. His frames would get my serious consideration if I were to order new ti.

[Hls2k6]

Love this bike, especially the welded seatstays/brake bridge. Wish so much that was an option on the full ti road frame.

[93legendti]

http://www.rexcycles.com/frames-parts/
Steel with carbon seat and top tubes, as well as carbon seat stays. $2650 for frame.

[54ny77]

it is kinda odd that firefly doesn't get skewered here for their prices when serotta gets maligned for [insert price/model here]. it's not like 6500 large is chump change. why is that?

they sure beat the snot outta anyone on the photography/marketing angle. those photos of theirs speak far more than anything else.

[Peter B]

http://www.rexcycles.com/frames-parts/
Steel with carbon seat and top tubes, as well as carbon seat stays. $2650 for frame.

Relative newcomer. Sheesh. Steve's only been at it for what, 25+ years now? How 'bout linking someone with some experience.

:rolleyes:

[Tony]

Relative newcomer. Sheesh. Steve's only been at it for what, 25+ years now? How 'bout linking someone with some experience.

:rolleyes:

Was at Steve's place today and got a look at his CSR, beautiful!!

Tony

[Peter B]

Was at Steve's place today and got a look at his CSR, beautiful!!

Tony

Steve's among the nicest, most humble folks you'll meet.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

it is kinda odd that firefly doesn't get skewered here for their prices when serotta gets maligned for [insert price/model here]. it's not like 6500 large is chump change. why is that?

they sure beat the snot outta anyone on the photography/marketing angle. those photos of theirs speak far more than anything else.

I don't care if their photographer can make me look like Roger De Vlaeminck on that bike, no way is that bike worth 2 large more than what I paid Nick for my Crumpton. It's a badass, awesome-looking bike, no doubt. But no frame/fork is worth that to me. YMMV.

[54ny77]

Wait, is this you riding through the Back Bay during a light rain?

Worth every penny!

;)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tmCXlTvwjkY/TSPCxZOSJEI/AAAAAAAABns/569btBGKKNc/s1600/dscn0077.jpg

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I changed my mind. If they could make me look like that (including only one arm warmer), I'd pay the price of admission for that frame/fork. Gotta look good in Back Bay on my way to the Corona Del Mar Starbucks!

[Peter B]

I don't care if their photographer can make me look like Roger De Vlaeminck on that bike, no way is that bike worth 2 large more than what I paid Nick for my Crumpton. It's a badass, awesome-looking bike, no doubt. But no frame/fork is worth that to me. YMMV.

And that in a nutshell defines why a brand like Serotta struggles...

[54ny77]

Rose's Donuts is the place. My pals eat there so often before and after rides the owner named a couple dishes after 'em.

;)

I changed my mind. If they could make me look like that (including only one arm warmer), I'd pay the price of admission for that frame/fork. Gotta look good in Back Bay on my way to the Corona Del Mar Starbucks!

[eddief]

http://davidsonbicycles.com/ti-carbon-gallery/

Not sure who makes those prefab carbon rear ends these days.

[terry]

I'm struck by the sad reality that time is not on my side, there are so many beautiful bikes out there that I'll never get to own/ride in my lifetime.

[buddybikes]

Firefly has expenses that are probably higher than others, being right in Boston, new building, and focus on a unique bike for each customer. they probably have sufficient demand to charge what they are for this new frame. They do have 35 years of experience, so they aren't newbies. Look at Sach's, his frames start at 4K, with substantially less frame material costs.

my guess is the amount of labor to build of these newbies is significantly higher than their ti only frames.

[cfox]

it is kinda odd that firefly doesn't get skewered here for their prices when serotta gets maligned for [insert price/model here]. it's not like 6500 large is chump change. why is that?

they sure beat the snot outta anyone on the photography/marketing angle. those photos of theirs speak far more than anything else.

Newish, edgy, buzz worthy builder, beautiful bikes and pics, no legacy of crazy looking bikes for old people...and is still cheaper by $1,000 (but still pricey for sure)

[oldpotatoe]

Firefly has expenses that are probably higher than others, being right in Boston, new building, and focus on a unique bike for each customer. they probably have sufficient demand to charge what they are for this new frame. They do have 35 years of experience, so they aren't newbies. Look at Sach's, his frames start at 4K, with substantially less frame material costs.

my guess is the amount of labor to build of these newbies is significantly higher than their ti only frames.

It should be pointed out that they are primarily direct to the end user as well(4 CA dealers, one in IL, many overseas-somewhat odd, IMHO, more overseas than in the US), which does change their finances, since they essentially 'double' the margin received on each frame/bike compared to selling one to a dealer, then to a customer. True for many builders mentioned here.

[93legendti]

Relative newcomer. Sheesh. Steve's only been at it for what, 25+ years now? How 'bout linking someone with some experience.

:rolleyes:

Sorry. Silly me. :D

[Climb01742]

http://www.rexcycles.com/frames-parts/
Steel with carbon seat and top tubes, as well as carbon seat stays. $2650 for frame.

Adam, thanks for the link. Very pretty and interesting. It is funny how some builders are 'hot', others aren't, yet they're all damn good.;)

[buddybikes]

It's called effective marketing! Using the internet to it's full advantage. People like us like "passion" and their image is such.

Personally for me it was meeting them in person and connecting. Plus Kevin did a design, different than current setup, got up on their machine and it felt perfect!

[Ahneida Ride]

Mr. Bedford also builds a Ti/carbon frame. Kelly is actually constructing one today!

I believe it is being offered around 5K.

[Dave B]

I don't get the issues folks have with builders building these bikes? I don't care which company is doing it, but folks just get their panties in a twist when they see these.

If you don't care for it, you don't have to buy it.

I would love to own a ti/carbon bike some day. The one time I used one for a weekend I just loved it.

I would also be interested in seeing the application done well with a mtb. Some people dig the look/idea some don't. Not much else to the argument other then people's personal agendas.

[Joachim]

I really really like mixed materials bikes if they are done right. I found the stock Ottrott a little too flexy for my taste (yeah yeah sacrilege, whatever), but I am sure that a custom Ottrott or the Firefly Ti/Carbon with its 1inch chainstays and 1.75 inch DT will be just right.

[PaMtbRider]

I would love to have one of these with Di2 and clearance for 32c tires. It would make for a great gravel road bike. Absolutely love my Ottrott and will never get rid of it, but adding a second Ti / carbon bike for gravel riding would be sweet.

[rpm]

I'm curious about the diversity in ti/carbon frames. Builders differ in which tubes are ti and which are carbon. The Ottrot has a ti seat tube and chainstays with carbon while the Seven Elium uses carbon in the seat tube and chainstays and ti everywhere else. The old LeMond "spine"bikes had ti downtube and chainstays and everything else carbon.

I'm wondering about a bike that had carbon for the downtube/chainstays spine, since that is where lateral stiffness is most desirable, and ti everywhere else because you want more compliance in the top tube, seat tube and seat stays.

[dd74]

I'm struck by the sad reality that time is not on my side, there are so many beautiful bikes out there that I'll never get to own/ride in my lifetime.
Not to mention finances not being on one's side, either. :eek:

[93legendti]

Adam, thanks for the link. Very pretty and interesting. It is funny how some builders are 'hot', others aren't, yet they're all damn good.;)

My pleasure.

It sure is. What a difference a snazzy website seems to make...

I've bought 2 forks from Mr. Rex. VERY reasonable.

[93legendti]

I'm curious about the diversity in ti/carbon frames. Builders differ in which tubes are ti and which are carbon. The Ottrot has a ti seat tube and chainstays with carbon while the Seven Elium uses carbon in the seat tube and chainstays and ti everywhere else. The old LeMond "spine"bikes had ti downtube and chainstays and everything else carbon.

I'm wondering about a bike that had carbon for the downtube/chainstays spine, since that is where lateral stiffness is most desirable, and ti everywhere else because you want more compliance in the top tube, seat tube and seat stays.

My Ottrott ST has carbon down and top tubes, as well as seat stays...

[93legendti]

At one time, Carl Strong made a carbon, steel and ti frame. I'm not sure if he still offers it

[Bob Ross]

At one time, Carl Strong made a carbon, steel and ti frame. I'm not sure if he still offers it

A single frame made from all three? Really? I've been keeping pretty close track of Carl's work since before he started offering carbon, and don't recall ever seeing a mixed materials frame from him (not counting forks, obviously).

[mosca]

A single frame made from all three? Really? I've been keeping pretty close track of Carl's work since before he started offering carbon, and don't recall ever seeing a mixed materials frame from him (not counting forks, obviously).
It's here. I think it was a one-off show bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY

[93legendti]

A single frame made from all three? Really? I've been keeping pretty close track of Carl's work since before he started offering carbon, and don't recall ever seeing a mixed materials frame from him (not counting forks, obviously).

Around 2004 or so it was in his website. I asked him about it. if I recall correctly, it was $2900 or so back then...

[Serotta_Carbon]

Mike, could you expand on that a bit? Can you tune carbon lugs in ways you can't tune ti lugs, or is it another area that's more tunable?

Also, could you discuss why, in an ottrott, specific tubes are carbon and others are ti? What about each tube's 'job' or stresses better suits carbon or ti?

Thanks.

Great questions. The reason I feel the Meivici is more tunable is twofold.

First, as you speculated, we are able to do more with the lugs on the Meivici cause we have more variables to manipulate. Wall thickness, lay-up orientations, material modulus etc. The lugs on the Ottrott are fabricated from tubing and the wall is the wall, the material is isotropic, and the modulus remains constant.

Second. We have more adjustability of the carbon chain stay than we have with the Ti. When I designed the Meivici stays we used an Ottrott stay as a baseline and then by changing walls, lay-ups, and materials we are able to make it stiffer or less stiff than the Ottrott stay and do so in 2 planes if desired.

Regarding your question on the design philosophy of the Ottrott I have to say that product pre-dates me at Serotta and I had little to do with it past supplying the carbon parts as a vendor. Ben & Jay Clark designed that bike and I'd be less than honest/accurate in trying to express their design intent. I will however see if I can get some thoughts from Ben on this topic and post them if the thread is still running.

[Climb01742]

Great questions. The reason I feel the Meivici is more tunable is twofold.

First, as you speculated, we are able to do more with the lugs on the Meivici cause we have more variables to manipulate. Wall thickness, lay-up orientations, material modulus etc. The lugs on the Ottrott are fabricated from tubing and the wall is the wall, the material is isotropic, and the modulus remains constant.

Second. We have more adjustability of the carbon chain stay than we have with the Ti. When I designed the Meivici stays we used an Ottrott stay as a baseline and then by changing walls, lay-ups, and materials we are able to make it stiffer or less stiff than the Ottrott stay and do so in 2 planes if desired.

Regarding your question on the design philosophy of the Ottrott I have to say that product pre-dates me at Serotta and I had little to do with it past supplying the carbon parts as a vendor. Ben & Jay Clark designed that bike and I'd be less than honest/accurate in trying to express their design intent. I will however see if I can get some thoughts from Ben on this topic and post them if the thread is still running.

mike, thank you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge. very helpful answers. i've always thought that this sort of behind-the-scenes knowledge was/is serotta's 'secret' weapon...if only it weren't so secret.;) thanks again.

[SPOKE]

Great questions. The reason I feel the Meivici is more tunable is twofold.

First, as you speculated, we are able to do more with the lugs on the Meivici cause we have more variables to manipulate. Wall thickness, lay-up orientations, material modulus etc. The lugs on the Ottrott are fabricated from tubing and the wall is the wall, the material is isotropic, and the modulus remains constant.

Second. We have more adjustability of the carbon chain stay than we have with the Ti. When I designed the Meivici stays we used an Ottrott stay as a baseline and then by changing walls, lay-ups, and materials we are able to make it stiffer or less stiff than the Ottrott stay and do so in 2 planes if desired.

Regarding your question on the design philosophy of the Ottrott I have to say that product pre-dates me at Serotta and I had little to do with it past supplying the carbon parts as a vendor. Ben & Jay Clark designed that bike and I'd be less than honest/accurate in trying to express their design intent. I will however see if I can get some thoughts from Ben on this topic and post them if the thread is still running.

Great info Mike! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

[93legendti]

I just exchanged emails with Carl Strong. He doesn't make that multi material bike anymore...

[soulspinner]

I changed my mind. If they could make me look like that (including only one arm warmer), I'd pay the price of admission for that frame/fork. Gotta look good in Back Bay on my way to the Corona Del Mar Starbucks!

:)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but I vividly remember visiting the factory in 2002 or 2003, shortly after the Ottrott was introduced. I had called the factory about something, gotten Jay, and he had invited me to come up and test ride one after learning I had bought a Legend in 2001. I remember it so well because Jay invited me, spent so much time with me even though I was unlikely to be in the market for another bike so soon, and because he just handed me this Ottrott and said "go have a good time." . . . "Uh, when do you want it back?" . . . "Oh, whenever you're done." :rolleyes:

I went up there and did a ride on my Legend, then went back out on an Ottrott and did an extended ride. I still remember the marked difference in power transfer between the two bikes. There was a perceived full cog of difference in power. In an equivalent gear I went faster on the Ottrott enough that I could feel it.

When I got back Jay spent half an hour talking with me about the bike and explained that the top and down tubes were the axis the frame flexed on when you pedal. The harder you pedal, the greater the flexing forces and the more power they sap. Putting the carbon tubes in those two locations made best use of the stiffness of the carbon to minimize the flex and translate it into usable power.

Made sense to me at the time. I also remember him wondering aloud why Seven did the seat and downtube on their Odonata because the top and down tubes were a much more obvious axis of flex. Hope I'm remembering all that right . . .

BBD

[Mark McM]

When I got back Jay spent half an hour talking with me about the bike and explained that the top and down tubes were the axis the frame flexed on when you pedal. The harder you pedal, the greater the flexing forces and the more power they sap. Putting the carbon tubes in those two locations made best use of the stiffness of the carbon to minimize the flex and translate it into usable power.

Made sense to me at the time. I also remember him wondering aloud why Seven did the seat and downtube on their Odonata because the top and down tubes were a much more obvious axis of flex. Hope I'm remembering all that right . . .

The Serotta Colorado Concept tubing flared the seat tube and the down tube. That made sense, because these were the axis the frame flexed on when you pedal ...

oh, wait a minute ...

[93legendti]

. . . but I vividly remember visiting the factory in 2002 or 2003, shortly after the Ottrott was introduced. I had called the factory about something, gotten Jay, and he had invited me to come up and test ride one after learning I had bought a Legend in 2001. I remember it so well because Jay invited me, spent so much time with me even though I was unlikely to be in the market for another bike so soon, and because he just handed me this Ottrott and said "go have a good time." . . . "Uh, when do you want it back?" . . . "Oh, whenever you're done." :rolleyes:

I went up there and did a ride on my Legend, then went back out on an Ottrott and did an extended ride. I still remember the marked difference in power transfer between the two bikes. There was a perceived full cog of difference in power. In an equivalent gear I went faster on the Ottrott enough that I could feel it.

When I got back Jay spent half an hour talking with me about the bike and explained that the top and down tubes were the axis the frame flexed on when you pedal. The harder you pedal, the greater the flexing forces and the more power they sap. Putting the carbon tubes in those two locations made best use of the stiffness of the carbon to minimize the flex and translate it into usable power.

Made sense to me at the time. I also remember him wondering aloud why Seven did the seat and downtube on their Odonata because the top and down tubes were a much more obvious axis of flex. Hope I'm remembering all that right . . .

BBD

I heard Ben S. speak about the Ottrott around 2004. If I recall correctly, he said the seat tube has the least influence on ride characteristics and putting carbon there made little sense.

[Bob Ross]

It's here. I think it was a one-off show bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY


Wow. Mind = blown.

[Bob Ross]

Around 2004 or so it was in his website. I asked him about it. if I recall correctly, it was $2900 or so back then...

I had no idea Carl was working with carbon that long ago. Geez, is there anything he can't do? :)

[rnhood]

Great info Mike! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

Agree, this is good info, and the type information that we need to see articulated on the Serotta website, instead of the usual comment that "we make the best bike in the world". The thought and execution (sophisticated layups, etc) and thought behind the construction is a good value proposition. You should balloon out the individual segments of the bike and put your technical comments there.

[mtb_frk]

I would also be interested in seeing the application done well with a mtb. Some people dig the look/idea some don't. Not much else to the argument other then people's personal agendas.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=56800

I had this made in 2008 and am still loving the bike. I went back and forth about the full Ti vs. Ti/carbon from a durability standpoint. But no issues so far.

[nmrt]

so, assuming that the seat tube material has little influence on ride quality, it would make sense for seven and firefly to put carbon in there to reduce frame weight?

I heard Ben S. speak about the Ottrott around 2004. If I recall correctly, he said the seat tube has the least influence on ride characteristics and putting carbon there made little sense.

[Mark McM]

I heard Ben S. speak about the Ottrott around 2004. If I recall correctly, he said the seat tube has the least influence on ride characteristics and putting carbon there made little sense.

Then why the extra time and expense in creating a special flared seat tube for the Colorado Concept tube set?

[TPetsch]

Can't imagine the Ti vs. Carbon in "those" areas reducing frame weight very much if at all.

By the time you factor in the glue and the fact of the overlapping areas of ti & Carbon, this might add to close to twice the weight in those areas.

And the fact that the Ti in those areas -where the carbon is now- would be where the Ti is at it's thinnest point -especially if the Ti tubing was butted.

And they might also be using thicker Ti in those areas where the tubing is glued compared to the wall thickness had they used Ti tubing only.

so, assuming that the seat tube material has little influence on ride quality, it would make sense for seven and firefly to put carbon in there to reduce frame weight?

[Climb01742]

This would be a perfect place for someone at serotta who was involved with the design/creation of the ottrott to share the story. Clearly there are a bunch of folks intrigued by carbon/ti mixes. What a great chance to elucidate why serotta believes their design choices best solve the challenges. Team Serotta, the stage is yours!;)

[mosca]

I had no idea Carl was working with carbon that long ago. Geez, is there anything he can't do? :)
Yeah, I had no idea he actually offered those for sale. He has a remarkable range of capability for a one man shop.

[SPOKE]

Agree, this is good info, and the type information that we need to see articulated on the Serotta website, instead of the usual comment that "we make the best bike in the world". The thought and execution (sophisticated layups, etc) and thought behind the construction is a good value proposition. You should balloon out the individual segments of the bike and put your technical comments there.

+1.....agreed. More meaningful tech talk that speaks directly to what makes Serotta's different from competitive products.

[93legendti]

Yeah, I had no idea he actually offered those for sale. He has a remarkable range of capability for a one man shop.

Now I sorta wish I had bought one...otoh, my Ottrott ST is perfect...;)

[jerome]

Not a builder, nor do I play one on TV, but all I can say is my Ottrott is the best riding , handling, feeling bike I have ever owned ( and I've owned quite a few)...

I used to love mines too - I had 2 and one XS but my Ottrot were design in SF at City Cycle back in the great times 2005 - love it - I love full Ti too indeed.

I might get one of those FireFly.
They are doing great

[pdmtong]

I used to love mines too - I had 2 and one XS but my Ottrot were design in SF at City Cycle back in the great times 2005 - love it - I love full Ti too indeed.

I might get one of those FireFly.
They are doing great

Yes. City Cycle at the top of the game. The San Francisco gran prix circuit race. Serotta sponsoring a team. 2005. Those were the days

[pdmtong]

I heard Ben S. speak about the Ottrott around 2004. If I recall correctly, he said the seat tube has the least influence on ride characteristics and putting carbon there made little sense.

Hmm good insight. Based on that perspective that would explain sacha's choice to use carbon seat tube on speedvagen as simply a weight savings measure.