OT: Bobby Knight on being crusty

[thwart]

Reminds me a bit of that saying 'life sucks, and then you die'...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/magazine/coach-bobby-knight-on-why-hes-so-unpleasant.html

[Dave B]

I met him several times, he is amazing. Yes he had some methods I don't agree with, but there are so many things he did for others and for his players that are never mentioned.

He isn't by any means perfect, but he did a great many things!

[BumbleBeeDave]

Yeah, like assaulting police officers, choking his own players, etc, etc., and his answer?

"Those things were inconsequential to me."

Yeah, a real class act. Not. He goes way beyond being "crusty." There's a lot of coaches around who also won an awful lot of games because they inspired their players, not because they scared the hell out of them.

BBD

[jbal3242]

Somehow I can't imagine him receiving a "heroes welcome" if he ever went back. definitely not in the class of other great college coaches, the guys always been about himself and will continue to be.

[Bradford]

There's a lot of coaches around who also won an awful lot of games because they inspired their players, not because they scared the hell out of them.

I once spent an afternoon with someone who played for coach Knight and asked him a lot of questions about this. He was certainly an inspirational figure to his players and remained so after they graduated (emphasis on graduation, not just finishing eligibility and leaving).

Coach Knight would say or do something every now and then that was cringe-worthy. However, he daily did things that were inspirational. For those of us who lived in Bloomington during his time there, it is easy to put the over-the-top stuff in perspective. For people who only hear about him through the national media, which loves to bring up the stupid things he said or did, it is hard to have the right perspective.

[biker72]

What always impressed me was coach Knights player graduation rate… regardless where he was coaching.

Some of his coaching methods were rather unorthodox....:)

[jr59]

I once spent an afternoon with someone who played for coach Knight and asked him a lot of questions about this. He was certainly an inspirational figure to his players and remained so after they graduated (emphasis on graduation, not just finishing eligibility and leaving).

Coach Knight would say or do something every now and then that was cringe-worthy. However, he daily did things that were inspirational. For those of us who lived in Bloomington during his time there, it is easy to put the over-the-top stuff in perspective. For people who only hear about him through the national media, which loves to bring up the stupid things he said or did, it is hard to have the right perspective.

I know coach and have for years. Bradford's comments are spot on.

I have haven't meet many that have ever met him for any amount of time and not felt this way.
Those that feel other wise have never met or had any dealings with him, and only know what they have read. AND, coach does not give a rat's behind what the press says. Not in the slightest at all.

[jr59]

On top of my above comment;

Think of all the wins at IU.
All the final fours, and sweet sixteens.

Then name all the NBA stars that ever played for him.
That list is VERY short! Hmmm... I wonder how he did it?

He's by far ans away a GREAT basketball coach and mind.

[Bradford]

And think of the wins by coaches who played for him, including that guy at Duke.

[firerescuefin]

And think of the wins by coaches who played for him, including that guy at Duke.

The press loves Mike K. I've had a friend play for him. Behind the scenes...he's every bit as intense...and would make a sailor blush with his language. Both great coaches...and both guys I would send my boys to play for.

[Dave B]

I knew the kid he choked very well. I dated his sister. The kid deserved! ;)

[jr59]

The press loves Mike K. I've had a friend play for him. Behind the scenes...he's every bit as intense...and would make a sailor blush with his language. Both great coaches...and both guys I would send my boys to play for.

100% correct. I know both!

[1/2 Wheeler]

I'm 100% sure that Coach Knight doesn't give a Flying F what any of us think of him. I respect him for that.

I think the majority of people that played for him have great respect for him. That is enough for me.

[Spin71]

Somehow I can't imagine him receiving a "heroes welcome" if he ever went back. definitely not in the class of other great college coaches, the guys always been about himself and will continue to be.

You obviously know little to nothing about college Basketball.

[Len J]

Having worked with a few of his former players........I wouldn't let one of my kids play for him ( be abused by him). Too many other good coaches that don't behave like him

Ymmv.

Len

[Louis]

I wonder what's it's been like for his family to live with him all these years?

Players know that they'll soon be gone. Relatives are for life.

[saab2000]

Yeah, like assaulting police officers, choking his own players, etc, etc., and his answer?

"Those things were inconsequential to me."

Yeah, a real class act. Not. He goes way beyond being "crusty." There's a lot of coaches around who also won an awful lot of games because they inspired their players, not because they scared the hell out of them.

BBD

Thank you for saying this. People like him deserve nothing but get everything because they bully their way into it and feel entitled to everything. He's a dirtbag bully and nothing more needs to be said.

[firerescuefin]

Having worked with a few of his former players........I wouldn't let one of my kids play for him ( be abused by him). Too many other good coaches that don't behave like him

Ymmv.

Len

And yet I've heard exactly the opposite from many. As you said YMMV. I hope my boys attend a Military Academy (AF/WP/NA)..horses for courses I guess

[saab2000]

I wonder what's it's been like for his family to live with him all these years?

Players know that they'll soon be gone. Relatives are for life.

Relatives are only for life if they allow it to happen and for them to be bullied and intimidated by a-holes. Relatives on the right side of things will close that door.

[firerescuefin]

Thank you for saying this. People like him deserve nothing but get everything because they bully their way into it and feel entitled to everything. He's a dirtbag bully and nothing more needs to be said.

....do speak. Clearly you know the man or had a son or close friend play for him. I understand he is a polarizing figure, but statements like yours are comical in their hyperbole. Like I said..coach K is in the same image..and you'd probably sing his praises.

[firerescuefin]

Relatives are only for life if they allow it to happen and for them to be bullied and intimidated by a-holes. Relatives on the right side of things will close that door.

Now you're related...keep the hits coming.

[bikinchris]

Yeah, like assaulting police officers, choking his own players, etc, etc., and his answer?

"Those things were inconsequential to me."

Yeah, a real class act. Not. He goes way beyond being "crusty." There's a lot of coaches around who also won an awful lot of games because they inspired their players, not because they scared the hell out of them.

BBD

+100. I have NO repsect for him. I much prefer coaches who inspire their players and seldom scream at them. The current Tenessee coach screams at his players a lot like Bobby Knoght did. Does that make him good?
If he is okay with the press showing him throwing chair across the court and the other stupid things he does, then I am okay thinking he doesn't deserve the notoriety he gets as a sports announcer.
I turn him off when he announces.

[saab2000]

Now you're related...keep the hits coming.

I just won't be baited into it. But there's plenty to say on this subject. I had a long answer but erased it. I've said my peace.

[firerescuefin]

I just won't be baited into it. But there's plenty to say on this subject. I had a long answer but erased it. I've said my peace.

Seems like you were the one doing the baiting IMO. I believe there's much to say....from both sides of the equation.

[dancinkozmo]

I knew the kid he choked very well. I dated his sister. The kid deserved! ;)

funny stuff....would you say the same if he choked your kid ?

[firerescuefin]

I'm out of this one...good man that made some really poor decisions IMO. What you see is not always what you get....for good and for bad.

[Louis]

I'm out of this one...good man that made some really poor decisions IMO.

Typically, if you're a good man / person you make good decisions. That may be simplifying it a bit, but saying that he's a "good man who made poor decisions" is an even greater misstatement of the facts.

[dancinkozmo]

...good man that made some really poor decisions IMO. What you see is not always what you get....for good and for bad.

sounds alot like what sandusky's lawyers said..

[firerescuefin]

Typically, if you're a good man / person you make good decisions. That may be simplifying it a bit, but saying that he's a "good man who made poor decisions" is an even greater misstatement of the facts.

Some poor decisions....know any good people that haven't made some? I don't . I know I'd like some do-overs.

[Louis]

Some poor decisions....know any good people that haven't made some? I don't . I know I'd like some do-overs.

Agreed, no one's perfect, but some are a bit less perfect than others.

[firerescuefin]

sounds alot like what sandusky's lawyers said..

Moronic. A guy that's loved and respected by players and peers compared to a convicted serial child molester. You should quit while you're behind. At least say something that has some bearing on reality.

[dancinkozmo]

Some poor decisions....know any good people that haven't made some? I don't . I know I'd like some do-overs.

is one of your do overs " i wish i didnt choke that kid" ?

[Louis]

Let's face it, big-time college basketball / football bring in lots of money for schools like IU and PSU. If you win they'll look the other way for a long time.

BK and JS are two way, way, different stories, but the same types of systems protected both guys for a long time.

[firerescuefin]

is one of your do overs " i wish i didnt choke that kid" ?

I would certainly hope so. No...not one of mine...but I got into a fist to cuff with one of my groomsmen and fellow firefighters (2 years before my wedding) we were good 2 days later, but I'd like it back.

[rugbysecondrow]

I just won't be baited into it. But there's plenty to say on this subject. I had a long answer but erased it. I've said my peace.

You walked into a bar, started a fight, then played the victim when you got punched. Deal with it.

[dancinkozmo]

I would certainly hope so.

seems like not choking a kid is not one of BK's "do overs".... then again his teams won lots of sports games so no biggie...Louis nailed it a few posts back

[Len J]

Lol. He made mistakes.....that's a good one.

Problem is he made those same "mistakes" for 30 plus years.

He certainly had good attributes, but his consistent physical and emotional abuse of anyone who disagreed with him was not a mistake, it was a personality flaw.

Len

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[akelman]

You walked into a bar, started a fight, then played the victim when you got punched. Deal with it.

Wait, criticizing a public figure, a man who's incredibly polarizing and has, as others have noted, choked a young man in his care, is the same thing as walking into a bar and starting a fight?

The thing is, people have different perspectives on what constitutes effective mentoring. From my perspective, once a mentor starts choking kids in his charge, something's gone badly awry. And I say that as someone who, when I was growing up, idolized Coach Knight. Now I think of him as a brilliant basketball coach and a fallen hero. Worse than the fall, though, has been his stubborn unwillingness -- at least as far as I know -- to accept responsibility for his many, many misdeeds. For Coach Knight, it seems that it's always someone else who's at fault, which is an odd position to take for a man who claims to be all about personal accountability and responsibility.

[rugbysecondrow]

He is a man of many flaws, but it sounds like many great qualities as well. Louis, we operate in a world of human error and imperfection, most of us are lucky enough to not have our imperfections broadcast nationally. If you feel comfortable knowing but a fraction about the man and judging him completely by that fraction, then so be it. I choose to be more measured. If choking a 20 year old was the worst thing I have ever done, then I would be pretty happy with myself.

[dancinkozmo]

I choose to be more measured. If choking a 20 year old was the worst thing I have ever done, then I would be pretty happy with myself.

i am in Canada and am interested in your American culture...are there many professions in the US where it is acceptable to choke ones subordinates ?? if so , i would like to apply for a position.

sincerely
dancinkozmo

[rugbysecondrow]

Certainly it is not the exact same, this is just a silly message board.

Yes, to drop in, sling some mess, say "that is all", then say a few more things and then act like he is above the fray and will not be baited when somebody argues back..I stand by the analogy.

Wait, criticizing a public figure, a man who's incredibly polarizing and has, as others have noted, choked a young man in his care, is the same thing as walking into a bar and starting a fight?

The thing is, people have different perspectives on what constitutes effective mentoring. From my perspective, once a mentor starts choking kids in his charge, something's gone badly awry. And I say that as someone who, when I was growing up, idolized Coach Knight. Now I think of him as a brilliant basketball coach and a fallen hero. Worse than the fall, though, has been his stubborn unwillingness -- at least as far as I know -- to accept responsibility for his many, many misdeeds. For Coach Knight, it seems that it's always someone else who's at fault, which is an odd position to take for a man who claims to be all about personal accountability and responsibility.

[rugbysecondrow]

i am in Canada and am interested in your American culture...are there many professions in the US where it is acceptable to choke ones subordinates ?? if so , i would like to apply for a position.

sincerely
dancinkozmo

If you got that from what I wrote, then you don't represent your nation well.

[akelman]

He is a man of many flaws, but it sounds like many great qualities as well. Louis, we operate in a world of human error and imperfection, most of us are lucky enough to not have our imperfections broadcast nationally. If you feel comfortable knowing but a fraction about the man and judging him completely by that fraction, then so be it. I choose to be more measured. If choking a 20 year old was the worst thing I have ever done, then I would be pretty happy with myself.

He choked a 20-year-old who was in his charge. And Knight was 57 or 58 at the time. That's the behavior of an unstable person.

[dancinkozmo]

If you got that from what I wrote, then you don't represent your nation well.

yes, our coaches dont choke their kids, but we do club baby seals.

[akelman]

yes, our coaches dont choke their kids, but we do club baby seals.

And put mayo on fries. Not to mention the crime against humanity that is poutine.

[rugbysecondrow]

He choked a 20-year-old who was in his charge. And Knight was 57 or 58 at the time. That's the behavior of an unstable person.

Did I say it was right? Did I agree with it? Did I say it was effective, appropriate or anything else positive? No. Nada.

To let that relatively minor, yet very wrong, event define the man himself, that is just not what I would do.

[rugbysecondrow]

yes, our coaches dont choke their kids, but we do club baby seals.

You have yet to say anything that resembles a point or a cogent thought.

[dancinkozmo]

And put mayo on fries. Not to mention the crime against humanity that is poutine.

thanks for not mentioning celine dion !

[Climb01742]

If choking a 20 year old was the worst thing I have ever done, then I would be pretty happy with myself.

Most people would rather go through life having never choked anyone. Hard to imagine anything justifies choking another human being.

[dancinkozmo]

You have yet to say anything that resembles a point or a cogent thought.

unlike you whos main point seems to be :

dont judge a man for choking a kid under his care...its relatively minor

[akelman]

Did I say it was right? Did I agree with it? Did I say it was effective, appropriate or anything else positive? No. Nada.

To let that relatively minor, yet very wrong, event define the man himself, that is just not what I would do.

I couldn't care less about Knight the man. Did I say I otherwise? I was and am talking about Knight the mentor. In that regard, he defined himself -- and not just when he choked Reed.

[akelman]

thanks for not mentioning celine dion !

I'm willing to spot Canada Celine Dion because of Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, kd lang, and many, many others.

[rugbysecondrow]

Most people would rather go through life having never choked anyone. Hard to imagine anything justices choking another human being.

DUI, marital infadelity, fist fight, theft, cheating in college, choking a 20 year old (not a kid but a large athlete) etc etc. There are lots of unpleasant things folks do in life they wish they hadn't. It is not making light of it, but accepting mistakes are made and folks move on and hopefully learn.

Maybe you and other are error free or were lucky enough to only make minor mistakes resulting in speeding tickets. Good for you. Other make mistakes, have regrets and learn.

I might just be alone here, which is all good. What forum do the flawed people hang out at these days? :)

[wc1934]

"That’s my answer. Let’s go onto something else. I’m tired of this".
He is still an A$$.

[dancinkozmo]

im errer free

[rugbysecondrow]

unlike you whos main point seems to be :

dont judge a man for choking a kid under his care...its relatively minor

I didn't say don't. I said I would take a more measured approach, but if you feel comfortable than that is fine. I wrote that, or something very similar.

[FlashUNC]

There are two coaching icons to follow, imo.

One is Coach Wooden. You'd be hard pressed to find any negative stories about Wooden. The man just sat on the bench twisting his game program for Pete's sake.

The other is Phil Jackson for his mastery of rather difficult player personalties. Again, without screaming or yelling.

I've read enough anecdotes about Knight and Coach K that players think their name was changed to Mother****er as soon as they joined the team.

That's not coaching. That's egotistic bullying.

[dancinkozmo]

"That’s my answer. Let’s go onto something else. I’m tired of this".
He is still an A$$.


heres a cool pic of one of my dogs....

[Louis]

heres a cool pic of one of my dogs....

Cute ;)

[Climb01742]

DUI, marital infadelity, fist fight, theft, cheating in college, choking a 20 year old (not a kid but a large athlete) etc etc. There are lots of unpleasant things folks do in life they wish they hadn't. It is not making light of it, but accepting mistakes are made and folks move on and hopefully learn.

Maybe you and other are error free or were lucky enough to only make minor mistakes resulting in speeding tickets. Good for you. Other make mistakes, have regrets and learn.

I might just be alone here, which is all good. What forum do the flawed people hang out at these days? :)

No one said they were error free or without flaws. You're setting up straw men and changing your argument. This isn't about mistakes and regrets, which we all have. You made a very specific statement about choking someone and how you could be happy if that was the 'worst' you'd done. My point is, most of us, flawed as we are, simply would never be at peace with violently putting are hands on someone else.

[Rada]

There are lots of unpleasant things folks do in life they wish they hadn't. It is not making light of it, but accepting mistakes are made and folks move on and hopefully learn.



Therein lays the problem with Bob Knight. He has an inability to accept responsibility of or learn from his mistakes. Good guys don't bully, or let their rage boil to the point of striking a person, or throw a tantrum like a spoiled child. The frequency in which he did these things speaks volumes of the man. He won games, good man.

[FlashUNC]

Therein lays the problem with Bob Knight. He has an inability to accept responsibility of or learn from his mistakes. Good guys don't bully, or let their rage boil to the point of striking a person, or throw a tantrum like a spoiled child. The frequency in which he did these things speaks volumes of the man. He won games, good man.

The sad thing is Indiana excused and protected this kind of behavior literally until he stopped winning. Once the wins stopped, then he became expendable.

Some priorities.

He's also the hypocrite who says he has disdain for the media, and works as TV analyst.

Guy is a total turd.

[rugbysecondrow]

No one said they were error free or without flaws. You're setting up straw men and changing your argument. This isn't about mistakes and regrets, which we all have. You made a very specific statement about choking someone and how you could be happy if that was the 'worst' you'd done. My point is, most of us, flawed as we are, simply would never be at peace with violently putting are hands on someone else.

Maybe that is a difference between us. I have been pissed and punched somebody, it was when i was a younger man. Am I happy about it, nope. Am I at peace with it? Yep, sleep well every night.

All this said, no progress is being made here, so I am stepping out.

[Rada]

The sad thing is Indiana excused and protected this kind of behavior literally until he stopped winning. Once the wins stopped, then he became expendable.

Some priorities.

He's also the hypocrite who says he has disdain for the media, and works as TV analyst.

Guy is a total turd.

Not for much longer. Word is ESPN has gotten tired of him and they are not going to renew his contract.

[Louis]

Chair throwing incident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qxu5cvW-ds)

I was a grad-student at Purdue when this happened, and was watching the game on TV. The IU fans loved it.

[Dave B]

Chair throwing incident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qxu5cvW-ds)

I was a grad-student at Purdue when this happened, and was watching the game on TV. The IU fans loved it.

There was a little old lady who was across the court. Knight just was offering her his seat. ;)

[dekindy]

IU 1981 grad and the national championship my senior year was a once in a lifetime experience. Watched all but the championship games in Florida on Spring Break and headed home to watch the championship game in Bloomington and celebrate all night. Almost went to Bloomington in 1987 to celebrate but had a job interview the next day.

For all his achievements on the court, Bobby Knight was a crusader off the court as well. He did so many things for so many people that will never be nationally known. Still had to cringe every time one of the negative public incidents took place.

He became very close to Glen Ress, son of my doctor in Tell City where I grew up. Glen fought Cancer and lost. Bobby Knight had a picture or momento of some type displayed prominently on his desk and often referred to this young man as his hero; very touching.

Bobby Knight's pet project when I was there and for many years after graduation was raising funs for the library. At every public speaking event that I was present he made a request that everyone write a check to the fund.

By the end it was my opinion that Bobby Knight should have left IU for Texas Tech about ten years before he actually did. It was getting bad and trending worse; you could see where it was going to go, a runaway train. I spoke with some Texas Tech fans when it was announced and they were ecstatic that Bobby Knight was coming to coach their team.

I always felt that Bobby Knight had some type of personality disorder; he always seemed so stiff and tended to talk in a monotone; really never seemed relaxed in an interview.

Like it or not, he is an Indiana legend when it comes to basketball, and that is about as big as it gets in Indiana.

[tuxbailey]

This almost feels like a Lance thread...

[1/2 Wheeler]

.... If choking a 20 year old was the worst thing I have ever done, then I would be pretty happy with myself.

I find this comical, but only because of how true it is.

The choke was a complete D-bag move and it momentarily had malice, but taken in context, it's not a deal breaker ATMO.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Agreed, no one's perfect, but some are a bit less perfect than others.

Certainly less perfect than many on this board.

[1/2 Wheeler]

.....never be at peace with violently putting are hands on someone else.

??

[Louis]

Certainly less perfect than many on this board.

Agreed - In my case, I'm just about 100% perfect. ;)

[R2D2]

I wonder what's it's been like for his family to live with him all these years?

Players know that they'll soon be gone. Relatives are for life.

My former in laws live in Bloomington in the same neighborhood where Bobby resided. I heard some great first hand stories of what happened when some neighbors happened to complain about his kids behaviour.

[jr59]

There are two coaching icons to follow, imo.

One is Coach Wooden. You'd be hard pressed to find any negative stories about Wooden. The man just sat on the bench twisting his game program for Pete's sake.

The other is Phil Jackson for his mastery of rather difficult player personalties. Again, without screaming or yelling.

I've read enough anecdotes about Knight and Coach K that players think their name was changed to Mother****er as soon as they joined the team.

That's not coaching. That's egotistic bullying.

Another one of the non published....

John Wooden was a HUGE CHEAT!!!

He paid all his players! Bill Walton said in his book he took a pay cut when he signed @ portland!
Look up Sam Gilbert! Then look up Wooden's record. You are going to find that Wooden was about a .500 coach until Gilbert came along. In the time that Gilbert was buying players for UCLA, not 1 left early under what was then the hardship rule. All the other top teams were losing players left and right. Also, please give me the pitch were AA players were to sit on the bench and wait their turn to play until their Jr andSr year. In this time frame it MIGHT have happened a few time at any other school, but it happened all the time @ UCLA!

Oh yea, Wooden's first rule of his pyramid was, I want the best players!
Sam Gilbert paid to make this happen.

Some BIG stinking cheat! You know, like a bike rider that always tested clean!

Go on and look it up!

[FlashUNC]

Another one of the non published....

John Wooden was a HUGE CHEAT!!!

He paid all his players! Bill Walton said in his book he took a pay cut when he signed @ portland!
Look up Sam Gilbert! Then look up Wooden's record. You are going to find that Wooden was about a .500 coach until Gilbert came along. In the time that Gilbert was buying players for UCLA, not 1 left early under what was then the hardship rule. All the other top teams were losing players left and right. Also, please give me the pitch were AA players were to sit on the bench and wait their turn to play until their Jr andSr year. In this time frame it MIGHT have happened a few time at any other school, but it happened all the time @ UCLA!

Oh yea, Wooden's first rule of his pyramid was, I want the best players!
Sam Gilbert paid to make this happen.

Some BIG stinking cheat! You know, like a bike rider that always tested clean!

Go on and look it up!

Considering I think NCAA players should be paid, this isn't exactly a negative in my mind. Never mind that players have been paid under the table to play at schools as long as college sports have existed.

Heck, university of Pittsburgh undeclassmen on the basketball team in the 1930s publicly complained to the local papers about getting paid less than their upperclassmen teammates.

Did Wooden ever choke someone on his team? Throw temper tantrums during games? Be a general turdbucket to the media? No.

[jr59]

Considering I think NCAA players should be paid, this isn't exactly a negative in my mind. Never mind that players have been paid under the table to play at schools as long as college sports have existed.

Heck, university of Pittsburgh undeclassmen on the basketball team in the 1930s publicly complained to the local papers about getting paid less than their upperclassmen teammates.

Did Wooden ever choke someone on his team? Throw temper tantrums during games? Be a general turdbucket to the media? No.

No he just CHEATED the system! That's all. He was a liar and a CHEAT!

But I guess because you think everyone did it it was alright!

[William]

Most people would rather go through life having never choked anyone. Hard to imagine anything justifies choking another human being.

Only when I've had to, or the guy across the ring was open and fine with the possibility of it happening to him.:)

Never just because I could, or to a weaker or subordinate person (outside of horsing around) .






William

[FlashUNC]

No he just CHEATED the system! That's all. He was a liar and a CHEAT!

But I guess because you think everyone did it it was alright!

I think the NCAA at its core is a hypocritical, corrupt system that abuses its labor force to make billions of dollars for itself and the athletic departments.

Its a systemic issue, and yes what Wooden participated in is regrettable. However, he's not the first, last or only college coach to engage in shady recruiting tactics. He's certainly not the only one to pay players.

But to conflate that with a coach physically assaulting a player, or throwing chairs in the middle of games, or spending a career being openly hostile to the media is to be far too unforgiving about one transgression and far too harsh about another.

Coaches have no right to physically assault there players. Why people think that's excusable is beyond me.

[firerescuefin]

Did the guy makes some big mistakes....yes. Should he have taken ownership for them and had the emotional IQ and fortitude to address those issues...yes.

Do I believe that he is loved my the majority of his former players because at the end of the day, he cared about them, loved them, and changed their lives for the better...not just going along with the charade like the majority of college coaches that see their kids as a means to an end....absolutely.

Do I believe that he is revered and respected by his peers because they respected the man and the coach...absolutely

I get the idea that many of you would be happier sending your kids to one of these guys wearing thousand dollar suits who are more interested in manipulating behavior and coddling the kids/ massaging their inner child to get results...but I am curious what these kids are learning about being men.

I've worked for guys like Bob Knight, who were rough (very rough) around the edges, but who were great men (in many aspects), yet deeply flawed, but at the end of the day would go to war with me, or in whose life I did and would gladly place my again in their hands again.

I've also worked for guys that on the outside had the right background, great resume, said the right things.....that I wouldn't trust with my dead hamster....yet these guys knew how to play the game and management (whose emotional and practical IQ was non existent) continued to move them up the chain. These folks are everywhere, and the fact that they continue to be moved along in most organizations tells us a lot about our culture IMO.

....and I've been fortunate to work for 1 man that did it right...in nearly every aspect. Those folks are rare. I hope you've had the opportunity to work for one.

If my son could play basketball at the highest level in D1, I'd want him to go to Duke and play for coach K...because I see him making Men. He's a disciple of Knight, and behind closed doors resemble Knight more than not. You want Calipari, Pitino...or even Billy Donovan (a guy I like) who embrace the one and done and encourage/enable kids to go to college without going to college (do some research on what qualifies as school for the 1 and done crowd)....knock yourself out. Me...I want my kids prepared for life, and I would hope that I raised them to be able to see the flaws in people, while also being able to see what makes them great (in certain aspects). I'll take loving, caring, demanding...and rough around the edges vs. enabler, coddler, user, manipulator every time. They can't all be coach K.

[Len J]

Did the guy makes some big mistakes....yes. Should he have taken ownership for them and had the emotional IQ and fortitude to address those issues...yes.

Do I believe that he is loved my the majority of his former players because at the end of the day, he cared about them, loved them, and changed their lives for the better...not just going along with the charade like the majority of college coaches that see their kids as a means to an end....absolutely.

Do I believe that he is revered and respected by his peers because they respected the man and the coach...absolutely

I get the idea that many of you would be happier sending your kids to one of these guys wearing thousand dollar suits who are more interested in manipulating behavior and coddling the kids/ massaging their inner child to get results...but I am curious what these kids are learning about being men.

I've worked for guys like Bob Knight, who were rough (very rough) around the edges, but who were great men (in many aspects), yet deeply flawed, but at the end of the day would go to war with me, or in whose life I did and would gladly place my again in their hands again.

I've also worked for guys that on the outside had the right background, great resume, said the right things.....that I wouldn't trust with my dead hamster....yet these guys knew how to play the game and management (whose emotional and practical IQ was non existent) continued to move them up the chain. These folks are everywhere, and the fact that they continue to be moved along in most organizations tells us a lot about our culture IMO.

....and I've been fortunate to work for 1 man that did it right...in nearly every aspect. Those folks are rare. I hope you've had the opportunity to work for one.

If my son could play basketball at the highest level in D1, I'd want him to go to Duke and play for coach K...because I see him making Men. He's a disciple of Knight, and behind closed doors resemble Knight more than not. You want Calipari, Pitino...or even Billy Donovan (a guy I like) who embrace the one and done and encourage/enable kids to go to college without going to college (do some research on what qualifies as school for the 1 and done crowd)....knock yourself out. Me...I want my kids prepared for life, and I would hope that I raised them to be able to see the flaws in people, while also being able to see what makes them great (in certain aspects). I'll take loving, caring, demanding...and rough around the edges vs. enabler, coddler, user, manipulator every time. They can't all be coach K.


For whatever reason, you seem to think that there are two extremes, abusive or coddling, with the exceptions being in the middle. I don't agree with that at all.

I recognize abusive personality traits because I was raised surrounded by them. Knight exhibits all of them. I've spent a good part of my life recognizing them and purging them in my own life. He may have had a great basketball mind, but at his core he was a bully. A successful bully, but nonetheless, a bully.

There are an awful lot of very good coaches that neither coddle their kids nor abuse them. One I am personally familiar with is Brad Stevens at butler. He holds his players accountable without feeling the need to abuse them to get what he wants. It appears Bill self may be the same way although I am not certain.

Abuse isn't necessary except by insecure people that know no other way. I suspect he could have been even more successful than he was if he didn't feel the need to dominate. It's a shame we will never know.

As to my kids, I want them to learn that life is hard, but it can also be safe, that its not necessary to bully and browbeat people to get what you want, that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in life and most importantly, that they don't have to tolerate abuse. They might have learned those lessons under Knight, but only by standing up to him, not because they were the behaviors he exhibited.

I've always felt sorry for Knight. He never struck me as very happy, living in such a world of extremes. I still do.

Len

[firerescuefin]

For whatever reason, you seem to think that there are two extremes, abusive or coddling, with the exceptions being in the middle. I don't agree with that at all.

I recognize abusive personality traits because I was raised surrounded by them. Knight exhibits ll of them.

There are an awful lot of very good coaches that neither coddle their kids nor abuse them. One I am personally familiar with is Brad Stevens at butler. He holds his players accountable without feeling the need to abuse them to get what he wants. It appears Bill self may be the same way although I am not certain.

Abuse isn't necessary except by insecure people that know no other way.

I've always felt sorry for Knight. He never struck me as very happy, living in such a world of extremes. I still do.

Len

You don't know anything about me or what I think. I grew up in an abusive home, lived in foster care for 3 years.....and spend more time thinking about raising my sons than most people do for real. I don't condone his actions, nor do I hold him up as the standard, but what you and many like you seem to ignore is the endorsements he gets from the majority of his players...who are now grown men. I don't think their "victims of abuse"...nor do I think they are choking kids out. You want to condemn the guy...knock your self out. If there is someone who played for him or had a son that played for him...at least they'd be making statements based on experience and not what they saw on Sportscenter.

[Len J]

You don't know anything about me or what I think. I grew up in an abusive home, lived in foster care for 3 years.....and spend more time thinking about raising my sons than most people do for real. I don't condone his actions, nor do I hold him up as the standard, but what you and many like you seem to ignore is the endorsements he gets from the majority of his players...who are now grown men. I don't think their "victims of abuse"...nor do I think they are choking kids out. You want to condemn the guy...knock your self out. If there is someone who played for him or had a son that played for him...at least they'd be making statements based on experience and not what they saw on Sportscenter.

I'm very familiar with more than a few people that played for him and there are two distinct camps with a wide chasm in between, those that recognize his abuse for what it was, and while acknowledging the good things he has done, see the negatives far outweighing the positives, and the loyalists.....the cult of the abused.

You can try to minimize all you want by pre-supposing that my opinions only come from sports enter, but you would be wrong.

I don't get how anyone who has been abused could fail to recognize his personality for what it is, and actually minimize his actions. I really don't get that

Len

[sailorboy]

And yet I've heard exactly the opposite from many. As you said YMMV. I hope my boys attend a Military Academy (AF/WP/NA)..horses for courses I guess

I would also add that the brand of 'leadership' Knight has displayed that has been widely reported on both in the media and from first-hand accounts from former players would not be tolerated in the officer ranks, staff or coaches of the service academies. At least not if it were discovered. I should know, I'm a senior officer and currently work at the Naval Academy.

Maybe it only represents 1% of his behavour (although I doubt that) but like so many things in life it takes a lot of rights to overshadow one wrong, and even with that sometimes there is a zero-tolerance policy. Choking a young person in your charge is probably one of those things.

My view of society says this is not the kind of role model we should promote. Like you said, YMMV

[MarleyMon]

Touting his graduation rate seems impressive until you remember that they are IU degrees. :p:banana:;):crap::beer:

Knight's last words in the NYT article summarize my view of him.

[akelman]

Geoff, I'm someone who believes in a great deal of discipline for my boys. I also believe that the best way to encourage outstanding performance, both from my boys and from my students, is to have very high standards, to challenge them to excel. My issue with Knight, then, is that he lacks self-control and refuses to accept responsibility for his actions.

[akelman]

Adding to that, I think if one wants to instill discipline in others, one has to exhibit self-discipline. And if one wants to encourage others to embrace accountability as a core value, one must take responsibility for one's own actions.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Adding to that, I think if one wants to instill discipline in others, one has to exhibit self-discipline. And if one wants to encourage others to embrace accountability as a core value, one must take responsibility for one's own actions.

We have a winner! You instill respect and loyalty in those you work with by setting an example . . . . all the time.

Knight could get 99 coaching "attaboys" but that one "Oh SH*T" of throwing the chair, assaulting the police officer, or choking your own player wipes them all out. And he's never learned that simple fact.

As for the cult-like devotion some people have to sports coaches like this, go Google "Stockholm Syndrome." This is just the sports fan strain.

BBD

[tuxbailey]

Adding to that, I think if one wants to instill discipline in others, one has to exhibit self-discipline. And if one wants to encourage others to embrace accountability as a core value, one must take responsibility for one's own actions.

+1

Very nice.

I see that many supporters can overlook the "isolated" incidents because he has done a lot of good in other areas. But the man does have issues that had manifested in a public manner.

The parallel drawn from recent incidents is that I can see and recognize that LA had done a lot of good outside of cycling, saved many lives and gave many hopes. But that doesn't change my opinion that he is a liar, cheater, and a bully as demonstrated by facts.

[mgm777]

This thread reminds me of a quote I had to memorize and recite during my first year at a service academy many, many years ago...

"The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an Army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the Soldier no feeling, but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or the other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself. While he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect towards others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself."

- Gen. John M. Schofield's address to the Graduating Class of 1879 at West Point

[torquer]

This almost feels like a Lance thread...
I didn't click on the article link in the original post, but assumed it was about this story in Sunday's sports section:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sports/basketball/lebron-james-is-making-the-case-for-the-happy-athlete.html
"Roger Clemens threw baseballs and the occasional broken bat at hitters. Ty Cobb slid spikes first. John McEnroe, Lance Armstrong, the 1974 Philadelphia Flyers — pick your favorite victorious villain.

Indeed, conventional wisdom is that to succeed at the highest level, you have to be boiling over with the rage of Achilles, bursting with a maniacal drive to win. Happy people are too soft to cut it.

Bob Knight, the patron saint of surliness, recently finished his manifesto on the issue. Its title: “The Power of Negative Thinking.”

I'm surprised that after seven pages of replies nobody else brought up this connection: Lance, as bad as Ty Cobb (that's BAD) or the Broad Street Bullies, but at least not in Knight's league. At last, some good news for the poor guy!