Ever promise your kid you'd make them something?

[a4racer]

Well, I kinda did. And now I need your help!

So, my kid is 5 years old, and she loves building, Lego, and of all things, the Titanic. To give you some idea, her idol presently is Dr. Robert Ballard. You see what I'm dealing with here.

About a week ago, she asked me if we could build something together that she could ride, and I foolishly immediately agreed. She then outlined what she was thinking of. Her original spec list (she wrote this out, and presented it to me, like an order form):


6 wheels;
All wheel drive; (we drive a Subaru, and gush about AWD to her all the time--so, for the record, we're talking about a 6 wheel, AWD vehicle now)
Seat;
Red; and
Steer by pumping your hands.

After some initial creative discussions, I discovered that the last item means "hand-driven", not that this helps substantially with either clarity or build simplicity.

So, I started researching hand-bikes, off-road wheelchairs, and stuff like that, and I got back to her with my research and say that this project, while doable, may need to be slightly amended to reflect what is actually possible (for her dad).

She said, okay, I'll make this easier, you can make it out of wood. Yes, so now it has to be made out of wood.

So, I've thought this out now, and I think it might actually be doable (albeit potentially ugly). We've negotiated out the 6WD and AWD aspect, and she's also comfortable with just having 3 or 4 wheels in total.

I'll be frank here, this is NOT intended for any on-road use (or off-road use for that matter), this will, at best, be used in either our garage as a proof of concept, or on the local high school track--the journey, methinks, is more important than the destination as it were. I really just want to spend time with her building something that she's really keen on.

In my mind, I'm thinking of this:

Smallish
wooden platform (satisfying wood quotient requirement), painted red (naturally).
Larger wheel in front connected by chain to cranks which are operated by hand.
Two small wheels (or even big casters) in rear, on articulated "beam" which will steer the creation. (Kind of like the Green Machines of yore)
Steering may be by foot--pedals attached to cables / ropes perhaps, to be honest, I haven't thought that part through at all.
Seat mounted on platform (as per spec request)


I think I can jury rig a hand crank mounted on some sort of post attached to the "seat platform" / chain / drive wheel arrangement (with considerable assistance from my LBS). Maybe.

What I need most though, is input--should the drive wheel be in front, pulling, or behind, pushing? Is a smaller drive wheel better, ie: 26" or even smaller, like a kid's bike 20" or so? How about gearing? I mean, she's only 5 and relatively light, but then again, that cuts both ways, being only 5, her power is not as considerable as say, mine, or Mario Cipollini's. Physics was NEVER my strong suit (just ask my disappointed Asian parents in my Grade 12 Physics mark) Steering is also kind of up in the air, as is "how to attach wheels to platform"--fixed casters on some sort of beam is a potentially easy solution, maybe even snowblower / lawnmower wheels too (how to affix an axle to platform? I don't know), but the drive wheel, that is giving me nightmares.

I apologize if this post is all over the map--I've been brainstorming for about a week now, and then realized that the folk here on the forum might have some pretty cool ideas...

Price IS an issue, but I'm willing to lay out good cash for a great project and what I think will be a memorable experience for both of us. Figure $1000 or so for materials and labour, where she and I can't undertake the labour ourselves. Like I said, if this sucker ends up going faster than a snail's crawl, I'll be thrilled. I'm not going for land speed records, I'm just looking to deliver on a promise to my kid, and to have a great time in so doing.

Any thoughts / ideas / suggestions / criticisms / opinions etc., are welcome...

Thanks folks!
:banana:

[MattTuck]

Any thoughts / ideas / suggestions / criticisms / opinions etc., are welcome...


your should get your daughter into engineering school, asap.



as far as your project, why not start with something easier? a little box cart would do nicely. My dad made me one of these when I was a kid. you can make the front steerable by have the whole front member pivot at the center, and having rope that comes up to your hands to pull that side. Your feet rest on front member, so they counter act the steering input from the rope.

http://communities.bentley.com/askIngaPics/166Pic21.jpg

If you knock that out of the park, maybe you can build something bigger/better next time.

[a4racer]

I just have to get the hand-crank drive unit somewhere in there...for her, that is apparently an integral part of the design (I rolled my eyes privately and broke out into a cold sweat when she said that, pencil crayon firmly in hand)

[christian]

Haha, I love it. My 4 year-old recently asked me to build him a merry go round in the backyard. I said no, but compared to this, I think I got off easy.

Let's start with the basics - you're not building a vehicle from wood that a 5 year-old can power with her hands. No way, no how. I don't care how you did in physics, that ain't happening. You'll need a steel frame. Wood veneer tape will be fun to play with.

You will be much more successful if you focus on building a fancy body to her whims and desires and leverage existing "assemblies" for parts. In other words, don't try to develop Ackermann steering with wood control arms.

A single drive wheel is best - that way you avoid a differential. No suspension.

I am thinking something like this:
Tubular steel frame, like a trailer frame
Two fixed a-arms with articulating uprights/wheels and tierods to a steering mechanism in front - could be as simple as pedals right on the tierods and a linkage between them
A plywood seat
A raised steel boom tube and bottom bracket with crank and handles (if she insists on hand cranks) in front of the seat with a chain down to another timing wheel/bb and a separate chain out back to the driving wheel.
A brazed on bicycle rear end to the steel frame

Cutting up a Schwinn tandem would be a good start....

Then shape 1/4" plywood over a buck for the body.

It would help immensely if you could convince her to steer with her hands and pedal with her feet*, but if not...

* then you could just build a velocar out of wood/steel, like this:
http://ecofriend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/go-one-evolution_2_NSqFg_69.jpg

[christian]

Can you stick weld?

[MattTuck]

I just have to get the hand-crank drive unit somewhere in there...for her, that is apparently an integral part of the design (I rolled my eyes privately and broke out into a cold sweat when she said that, pencil crayon firmly in hand)

I think that if you make a box cart, put her at the top of a nice long hill with a flat run out, and let her pilot it, a hand crank will be the last thing on her mind...

Of course, I don't have kids, so take my advice at your own peril. I was however, a kid in the past, I am a kid at heart.

[christian]

Other ideas:

http://ecofriend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/argentine_designer_conceives_an_all_electric_woode n_tricycle_image_title_kfsmq.jpg

http://www.thecycler.net/photos/tricycle_en_bois_4.jpg

Ok, that wood tadpole trike is the business!

[christian]

This may help (or further discourage you):

http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2009/03/10-free-wooden-bike-plans-make-your-own-wood-recumbent-bamboo-bike-and-more

http://www.woodenbicycle.freeservers.com/trike.htm

Good luck. You're a good dad!!!

[a4racer]

my carbon fiber laying skills are pretty weak, so I'm not even going to attempt a fairing, hahaha!

I will see if I can't persuade her to swap drive / control inputs from hands / feet to feet / hands. If that's the case, I agree, this project just got a whole lot simpler.

I'm intrigued, however, by the thought of using a bike trailer as a starting point for the project. relatively lightweight, two mounted wheels to begin with, fairly sturdy (for a 5 year old)...hmm...

Tandem modifications is also a neato idea, but I fear there would be extensive welding required there. And there is nothing that I fear more than welding. Well, maybe Godzilla, but that's about it.

[cp43]

Can you stick weld?

I think this is the critical part that was left out of the original post. Not stick welding in particular, but fabrication skills and abilities. You'll probably get some better feedback once people know what you can do.

If it's time with your daughter that you're really going for, can you talk her into building a few prototypes with you first? That way you can screw up a bunch of stuff, learn together, and then finally build something really good.

Have fun :)

Chris

[a4racer]

Hahaha!

[vqdriver]

sounds like you're looking for a stripped down go-kart roller.
meaning a go-kart without the motor. it'll have the steering and braking all sorted out and wheels and such are easy(er) to come by.
then all that's left is to rig a drivetrain to drive the wheels, but you'll have a metal platform to attach stuff to. added plus, you may also find one with a roll cage for some peace of mind. most importantly, the scale is correct.

i know that simply buying it is counter to the spirit of the endeavor. but you may be able to use the layout and/or go-kart parts if you decide to make it yourself, which may be a good balance of build feasibility and project satisfaction.

[christian]

I will see if I can't persuade her to swap drive / control inputs from hands / feet to feet / hands. If that's the case, I agree, this project just got a whole lot simpler.

Actually, maybe don't try to persuade her. Ask her at dinner to consider how/why cars and bicycles and motorcycles are steered the way they are, and why people have decided that. Would it be different if we had prehensile feet? Might be an interesting conversation.

If that fails, offer to put an ipod remote on the "steering" bars. :)

[a4racer]

Actually, maybe don't try to persuade her. Ask her at dinner to consider how/why cars and bicycles and motorcycles are steered the way they are, and why people have decided that. Would it be different if we had prehensile feet? Might be an interesting conversation.

If that fails, offer to put an ipod remote on the "steering" bars. :)

That is a good approach--instead of persuading her, we can chat about why things are the way they are (stronger muscles in legs, more upright position, etc.) That way, she gets to come to the conclusion as opposed to Dad imposing / persuading her...

Good thought!

p.s. I can't stick weld for crap. In that I don't know what it is. My fabrication skills with wood are pretty decent though, and I have tools / knowledge that way.

[rwsaunders]

Perhaps reach out to Steve Garro at Coconino Cycles to discuss hand cycles, as Steve rides one himself.

[retrofit]

You could also take a few design ideas from existing hand cycles -- repurposing an old crankset and BB could get you the hand drive she desires.

Here is one person's attempt to design and build a hand cycle from CF: diy handcycle (http://diyhandcycle.blogspot.com/2012/01/this-is-chronicle-of-my-attempts-to.html).

Which ever direction you choose to go, be sure to document your experience with plenty of photos as the time spent with your daughter will truly be priceless.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Don't let a 5 year olds ideas drive you to failure.

Dumb it WAY down but paint it a pretty color and she will be happy as can be.

There is VERY little (as in no) chance she has the arm strength required.

[KidWok]

My almost five year old recently asked for (more like demanded) something similar. After seeing me wrench for years, he asked if he could help me with building a bike. The only thing I had lined up was moving the 7800 group from one bike to another, which turned out to be perfect for his age. I let him use the torque wrench to take parts off one frame-set and move them over to the other. I helped him tighten of course and he got really excited about it clicking at the end. He was really into it, but his attention span each time was probably no more than 30 minutes.

I'd say start small with something you're familiar with before spending big bucks on a larger project. Kids this age have big ideas, but smaller attention spans. Also gives them a sense of accomplishment to "earn" a bigger project.

Here's my boy "helping" me build wheels at 2.5 years old. He's tapping each spoke with the wrench like I do to hear the pitch.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/164514_1773659949274_8103957_n.jpg

Tai

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just call Tyler and Jamie over at Firefly, send them about $20 thousand, and I'm sure they can come up with something that will make her happy. ;)

BBD

[AngryScientist]

that's an awesome pic kidwok.

[pbarry]

This might be a good platform to start with if you can find one:
http://www.barthworks.com/cars/forneycycles/1993legacyexh519_1.htm

There's a more recent AWD bike with both leg and arm cranks--chain driven with Nexus front and rear hubs. A few have popped up on CL here recently.

[a4racer]

Don't let a 5 year olds ideas drive you to failure.

Dumb it WAY down but paint it a pretty color and she will be happy as can be.

There is VERY little (as in no) chance she has the arm strength required.

that you guys are right about the arm strength. Even with the thousands of reps of hammer and preacher curls I make her do fort-nightly, her arm strength just isn't there, hahaha! I think I'm going to start with a simple trike, with pedals for the feet (not hands!). She can steer with her hands that way, and won't get frustrated when she can only go "downhill"...

Mostly made out of wood, and painted red, naturally!

[Steve in SLO]

If your made-with-love-contraption starts shedding parts when she rides it, you may want to consider a Huffy Green Machine. Our kids rode theirs until they were over 10 years old and adults can have fun pulling 180 slide turns as well (or so i've heard).

[a4racer]

If your made-with-love-contraption starts shedding parts when she rides it, you may want to consider a Huffy Green Machine. Our kids rode theirs until they were over 10 years old and adults can have fun pulling 180 slide turns as well (or so i've heard).

Love it...I almost got nailed by a car riding one of those in about 1982. Seriously, who thought of "hey, lets put kids on really low-slung things that have little to no traction at best (plastic wheels) and nice and low so cars can't see them?"

At least recumbents have FLAGS!!!

[foo_fighter]

The plasmacar satisfies all those requirement except for AWD. Maybe you can modify it to have pedals to power the rear wheels. Also the 5th and 6th wheels are just bumpers so that may not count.

The means of propulsion is actually very clever and fairly intuitive. My 2 year old rides around on one all the time...so I disagree about the arm strength requirement.

[Louis]

A while back Bobswire made a wooden recumbent-type trike for kids and posted pictures. I did a quick search but was not able to find the thread.

You may want to PM him.

[a4racer]

The plasmacar satisfies all those requirement except for AWD. Maybe you can modify it to have pedals to power the rear wheels. Also the 5th and 6th wheels are just bumpers so that may not count.

The means of propulsion is actually very clever and fairly intuitive. My 2 year old rides around on one all the time...so I disagree about the arm strength requirement.

But the magical pixie dust that powers the Plasma Car is in short supply in the cold dark winters here. Just kidding, she loves her plasma car, and smashes it into my car all the time in the garage. Great, I just realized what I've committed to making her is another automobile battering ram.

[split]

Here are some pics for inspiration...an idea collage if you will.

Six wheels
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4103/4833876466_2b75ca7732_z.jpg

Red
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/5/10771369_f1850cecb6_z.jpg

Carbon Gates belt drive
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/news/2010/03/03/1267610299655-16usudg6txplh-670-75.jpg

Steer by feet, borrowed from a couple of old bicycles mechanics, the Wright brothers.
http://legacy.wrightflyer.org/Future/Sept_2003/Picts/MVC00089.jpg

She's gotta stop somehow
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/33981_562135890465533_162186569_n.jpg

And inspiration from the best at all wheel drive ;)
http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Audi-Quattro-and-BSCB-jump.jpg

And a helmet for safety
http://1.standaardcdn.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2012/08/01/03331801.jpg.h600.jpg

[Wilkinson4]

I will see if I can't persuade her to swap drive / control inputs from hands / feet to feet / hands. If that's the case, I agree, this project just got a whole lot simpler.

Build two! Rod operated driveshaft with foot rudder steering and the other way, a ride around the block will show one more efficient than the other:)

mIKE

[foo_fighter]

How about these:
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18ds30mkwzec9jpg/ku-xlarge.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/5982018/bmw-designs-a-42+wheeled-19+engined-car-for-one-four+year-old
http://jalopnik.com/5980101/help-a-four+year-old-visualize-his-dream-car

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/01/how-could-a-lifted-mercedes-benz-g63-amg-be-more-awesome-add-an/

[cmg]

some suggestions....silly fun. Just ad some potoons.

[idragen]

good luck OP!

[a4racer]

...and my kid is still loving cycling and has a hard crush on the Trek Fuel Jr. Santa brought a 3d printer to the house and we're loving the affinity to STEM!

This (http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/09/04/build-a-kids-bike-scooter-trike-and-much-much-more-from-scratch-with-infentos-build-kits/) pops up on bikerumor today...I'm going to take a long hard look at this!!!

[split]

...and my kid is still loving cycling and has a hard crush on the Trek Fuel Jr. Santa brought a 3d printer to the house and we're loving the affinity to STEM!



This (http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/09/04/build-a-kids-bike-scooter-trike-and-much-much-more-from-scratch-with-infentos-build-kits/) pops up on bikerumor today...I'm going to take a long hard look at this!!!


Uh oh! Trouble!!

[likebikes]

So what ever ended up happening with the thing in the op?

[slidey]

Warning: No useful content in this post.

I just wanted to chime in, and urge you to do your very best to make this bond with your daughter bear good fruit. Hearing of young kids with their curiosity aroused enough to pursue its implementation fills me up with just a little bit of optimism.

I love coming across such well-founded practical world optimism in young individuals, and I very firmly believe that if this is nurtured or given the right breeding ground, it could very well serve as a solid foundation for your child's future.

Finally, and a soap box racer immediately pops into my head when I hear your parameters for the hands-on project.

Good luck whatever it is, and do keep us posted.

EDIT: I don't pay nearly enough attention to dates as I should.

[Avincent52]

(Edit: Only just now noticed that this thread is two years old. But I'll leave the comment up for any other dad looking for child-based advice about a project with their kid.)

Your daughter sounds really awesome, and it's great that you're taking her ideas seriously.

You've gotten enough input on engineering, so I'll give you a little input on kids.

Even smart and serious minded kids--like your daughter, and my kids--are still kids. They come up with ideas, and they abandon them just as quickly.

So I'd
a) Try to get something started quickly. Kids have a different sense of time than we do. Two weeks may seem "quick" to us, but may feel like "forever" to a kid of that age.
b) Take her specs seriously, and also have a serious conversation as to why certain things will be easy--painting it red-- and others might be hard--hand drive.
c) Let her help. As much as possible get her involved in the process. Give her a little job that's within her capability, and leave her alone (meaning not hovering)

Again, let me commend you for doing this. Really, what she wants is to make something with her dad, and if you can do that, regardless of how the wheels are driven, you and she will have built not only a vehicle, but a memory that'll last forever.

Good luck. And post a pic of the process and the result if you're so inclined.