Moots CR vs Legend

[duffeymt]

How would you compare the two?

[Joachim]

By riding both.

[oldpotatoe]

How would you compare the two?

This ought to be interesting.

BTW-how do you compare a Fuji apple to a Macintosh, in terms of taste?

Gonna just watch this one.

[crownjewelwl]

the moots is strident yet yielding

the legend is lucid yet somewhat episcopalian in its predictability

[wooly]

This is a very generic question and search is your friend but in the spirit of this forum here's my take:

Custom geometry vs stock - probably the biggest deal here
Tube sets: butted versus straight gauge - not sure you can tell the difference but some claim to.
Weight due to butting (usually)
Finish - moots has a beautiful finish but Serotta can easily paint. Moots can to but your rarely see a painted moots.

I don't necessarily fall into the category of liking one over the other. If I was going to get ti I'd get a Hampsten SB or firefly.

[esldude]

the moots is strident yet yielding

the legend is lucid yet somewhat episcopalian in its predictability

Darn took the words right out of my mouth. Leaving me with nothing to add.

[54ny77]

which ti would you consider the rolling antichrist?

the moots is strident yet yielding

the legend is lucid yet somewhat episcopalian in its predictability

[Elefantino]

Does the Moots have holes in the frame for internal cable routing?

[54ny77]

holes equals loose morals.

Does the Moots have holes in the frame for internal cable routing?

[esldude]

which ti would you consider the rolling antichrist?

WWW.tritonbikes.com

Anyone making a Ti unicycle in Russia cannot be up to any good. Unicycles are the devil's spawn.

[yakstone]

I agree with Joachim - ride them both with the same wheels on each.

[beercan]

I preferred the ride on my serotta Colorado legend vs my moots vamoots SL I have now, sold the serotta and I still miss her everyday.

[jr59]

If I had both done the same way, I would ride with air in the tires.

Both are top of the line Ti frames made by people who know what they are doing.

Put the names on small pieces of paper and put them in a hat, shake well, close eyes and pick one. That one will be the best!

[akelman]

the moots is strident yet yielding

the legend is lucid yet somewhat episcopalian in its predictability

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening making sweet, sweet love to this answer.

[Elefantino]

If I had both done the same way, I would ride with air in the tires.
And if they're not both done the same way, leaves.

:D

[ctcyclistbob]

i agree with joachim - ride them both with the same wheels on each.

+2

[dd74]

BTW-how do you compare a Fuji apple to a Macintosh, in terms of taste?
Fuji's are sweet and sour. Apple Macintosh taste like overpriced plastic.

[mgm777]

Like others have already stated, it would be pretty hard to make a bad choice between the two. That said, here's my take on the subject. Consider the type of riding you primarily do. I have a Ti Legend. It has butted tubes(marketing hype? small weight savings?)...don't think this makes a meaningful difference. My bike has a 8 mm bb drop, and it is my understanding this is Serotta's default spec for bb drop. In my frame size, 55, the Moots CR has a 7.2 mm bb drop. I'm not a frame builder, but if my assumption is correct(it may not be), and bb drop is a signficant indicator of how stable the bike is going to feel during a high speed decent and sweeping turn, then the lower bb drop is preferable. I don't race anymore, especially no more crits, and most of my riding incudes long canyon climbs and long descents around the Boulder area. So, stability on long descents is an important characteristic to me. I also own a Ti Seven with a 7 mm bb drop and I can discern a slight difference in handling(not good or bad, just different) when using the same wheelset. For me though, my next bike will likely be a Moots purchased from Peter at Vecchios, when I sell my Legend. Right now, a Moots has my eye.:)

[SteveV0983]

When I was in the market last year for a Ti bike I couldn't find a local dealer for either one. I tried to reach Serotta several times with basic questions and never received a call back or an email response. I will add that I still own a 1992 Colorado tg which I think is a great bike. But even with that bike, when I had questions about changing fork, paint questions, etc., I found their customer service to be pretty poor. Contrast that with my first call to Moots approx 15 months ago and I was greeted with someone who couldn't have been happier to accommodate me. Knowing that my closest dealer was over 100 miles away, they arranged to have a demo shipped to my LBS of choice and offered to sell it through them if I wanted one (assuming my LBS agreed, which they did). Several other calls and emails to Moots were all answered within half an hour and always with an eagerness and excitement for the product. So I rode the demo, loved it, ordered it, and 9 weeks later got what I feel is a fantastic bike. I also received a follow-up email after the purchase from the company president asking me for my feedback and letting me know that the service did not end with the purchase. For the price of these frames, I think customer service matters and Moots won me over. Plus they are a very "green" company, which is important to me. Others may have had different experiences, but this was mine.

[fogrider]

my best handling bikes: Legend Ti and Scandium Rock Lobster. both very stable and feel great in turns...but I have yet to swing a leg over a Moots.

[oldpotatoe]

Fuji's are sweet and sour. Apple Macintosh taste like overpriced plastic.

I prefer the taste of Macs. Each year I look forward to the fall when they are at the market. Fuji are plain and somewhat industrial to me, at the same time. Macs are sweet and I love the sound they make when I bite one, and how they look in my bag, all multicolored.

tee-hee

[oldpotatoe]

Like others have already stated, it would be pretty hard to make a bad choice between the two. That said, here's my take on the subject. Consider the type of riding you primarily do. I have a Ti Legend. It has butted tubes(marketing hype? small weight savings?)...don't think this makes a meaningful difference. My bike has a 8 mm bb drop, and it is my understanding this is Serotta's default spec for bb drop. In my frame size, 55, the Moots CR has a 7.2 mm bb drop. I'm not a frame builder, but if my assumption is correct(it may not be), and bb drop is a signficant indicator of how stable the bike is going to feel during a high speed decent and sweeping turn, then the lower bb drop is preferable. I don't race anymore, especially no more crits, and most of my riding incudes long canyon climbs and long descents around the Boulder area. So, stability on long descents is an important characteristic to me. I also own a Ti Seven with a 7 mm bb drop and I can discern a slight difference in handling(not good or bad, just different) when using the same wheelset. For me though, my next bike will likely be a Moots purchased from Peter at Vecchios, when I sell my Legend. Right now, a Moots has my eye.:)

Huzza!!

[KeithNYC]

When I was in the market last year for a Ti bike I couldn't find a local dealer for either one. I tried to reach Serotta several times with basic questions and never received a call back or an email response. I will add that I still own a 1992 Colorado tg which I think is a great bike. But even with that bike, when I had questions about changing fork, paint questions, etc., I found their customer service to be pretty poor. Contrast that with my first call to Moots approx 15 months ago and I was greeted with someone who couldn't have been happier to accommodate me. Knowing that my closest dealer was over 100 miles away, they arranged to have a demo shipped to my LBS of choice and offered to sell it through them if I wanted one (assuming my LBS agreed, which they did). Several other calls and emails to Moots were all answered within half an hour and always with an eagerness and excitement for the product. So I rode the demo, loved it, ordered it, and 9 weeks later got what I feel is a fantastic bike. I also received a follow-up email after the purchase from the company president asking me for my feedback and letting me know that the service did not end with the purchase. For the price of these frames, I think customer service matters and Moots won me over. Plus they are a very "green" company, which is important to me. Others may have had different experiences, but this was mine.

Bears repeating.

[Tony]

Bears repeating.

I also tried to reach Serotta several times with a basic question and never received a call back. I did however get and email approx a month later and was referred to this forum (BTW this is a great place I'm glad I was turned on to this forum, learning a lot!) I wont get another Serotta, customer service is important to me.

Tony

[Matthew]

I have a 2009 Moots Compact which is essentially a CR and a 2002 Serotta Concours which at the time was a step down from a Legend in their lineup. I have the same components on each: wheels, saddle, bars, stem, and grouppo. Forks are the same too, a Kestrel EMS Pro( I like the durability of an aluminum steerer). My thoughts on the Moots: Phenominal ride quality. It is just so smooth yet it gets up and goes when pushed. Feels very stable, a great all day ride. Build quality, finish, and customer support are all top notch. Call them, someone answers the phone every time. I also got an e-mail after I made my purchase making sure I was happy with my Moots. Just a great company all around. And they still offer a paper catalog you can pick up at the shop or get in the mail. And they usually send you a sticker or two with it!! The Serotta: Also a great riding bike. Feels slightly stiffer in the BB with just a bit more of an edge in the saddle, not quite as smooth as the Moots. But I am talking minimal here. It corners great, also has an all day ride quality (have done many centuries on it) and can certainly hold its own in a race. Build quality, paint and finish are all stellar here too. I have thousands of miles on this bike and it still rides and looks like it did the day I bought it. Others are stunned this bike is 11 years old when I tell them. Not sure if this helps you. My take is this: You will be happy with either choice. These two make some of the best ti bikes on the planet. If I could only keep one bike it would be the Moots for just the sublime ride quality it exhibits. Had to get sublime in there somewhere!! But I can honestly say I will have both of these bikes until I am no longer on this earth. Matthew.

[eddief]

I want a ti ride that is not quite a lime, shall we say sub lime? You gotta love it. Glad the differences are not like apples and oranges, then we'd be in world of sh*t.

[Matthew]

That should make this thread really take off. Would love to hear exactly why you think that.

[flydhest]

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening making sweet, sweet love to this answer.

brown chicken, brown cow.

[oldpotatoe]

Get a Moots for two reasons:

1. I sell Moots at my shop

2. I honestly don't think that Serotta is going to have a very long future. Based on the conversations I've had with people who are "in the know" and my knowledge of the current owner I think that it will be a miracle if the company lasts.


...since my opinion counts for so much.

Geezz, when I say the above I get a PM or get called out by a MOD(just happened on another thread about plumbing for electronic.)....

but I agree...

yessir, the phone lines are open!!

I need to ride more anyway.

Good post by PDMTong on the the serotta electronic' thread as well..about flag waving and 'hands on hips' attitudes..

[54ny77]

a moots and a serotta walk into a bar....

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening making sweet, sweet love to this answer.

[SPOKE]

Get a Moots for two reasons:

1. I sell Moots at my shop

2. I honestly don't think that Serotta is going to have a very long future. Based on the conversations I've had with people who are "in the know" and my knowledge of the current owner I think that it will be a miracle if the company lasts.


...since my opinion counts for so much.

I sincerely hope your #2 opinion is completely wrong. Recent activity from the Serotta crew seems very positive to me. I just wish they woul have a lugged steel option since I prefer to ride steel.

[akelman]

Get a Moots for two reasons:

1. I sell Moots at my shop

2. I honestly don't think that Serotta is going to have a very long future. Based on the conversations I've had with people who are "in the know" and my knowledge of the current owner I think that it will be a miracle if the company lasts.


...since my opinion counts for so much.

So wait, let me get this straight: you've heard some things (but you won't share any details!) from some people (but you won't share any names!) that are so damning that you've become convinced that Serotta is going under. In fact, you're so convinced of Serotta's impending demise that you're willing (eager, even!) to spread rumors that might hasten that process by damaging the company's good name and convincing a potential customer to buy a brand of bike that your shop carries? Awesome! I'm sure this is the kind of arm's-length assessment that the OP was seeking!

[akelman]

Also, after having lousy customer service experiences with Serotta for a few years, I've found things much improved lately. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Elefantino]

I continually try to get my head around this whole Serotta-is-going-to-fail-neener-neener thing but am unable.

[oldpotatoe]

I continually try to get my head around this whole Serotta-is-going-to-fail-neener-neener thing but am unable.

who the hell really knows. 'They' have been saying Campagnolo is going out of biz any second for a decade.

[wooly]

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening making sweet, sweet love to this answer.

Weird, I just said that to my wife last night. When she said she was tired.

[KidWok]

Weird, I just said that to my wife last night. When she said she was tired.

Not sure which one I like more...the initial comment or this response.

Tai

[TPetsch]

Also, after having lousy customer service experiences with Serotta for a few years, I've found things much improved lately. Your mileage may vary, of course.

A big plus (1) on that.

I recently had an issue with one of my Serottas and the customer service -and overall result- was outstanding. I believe they have really turned things around over there in the past few months.

In my opinion the Legend is the Benchmark. The Ti frame that all other Ti frames are measured against. Owned a moots once and it just wasn't for me, it felt as though it was a little too flexy in the bottom bracket and rear triangle. The Legend has a way of feeling solid as a rock yet floats along with authority mile after mile while never failing to disappoint no matter what the road throws at me. The fit and hand satin finish on the Legend is just a little more "Wow" compared to bead blast -not to mention that most, if not all the tubes are butted -Moots is all straight gauge- plus each tube varies in outside dimension on the Serotta -tapering- making for one of the most beautiful overall forms that I have ever owned, a true highly functional work of art. ...I -for one- highly recommend it. :)

[Ken Robb]

A big plus (1) on that.

triangle. The Legend has a way of feeling solid as a rock yet floats along with authority mile after mile while never failing to disappoint no matter what the road throws at me. a true highly functional work of art. ...I -for one- highly recommend it. :)

You recommend a bike that never fails to disappoint? Don't you like us? :)

[TPetsch]

Perhaps there's some subliminal meaning in what I wrote there. I need to search deep inside my psyche to extrapolate the foundation of it...

OK, I got it. "It never fails to disappoint". In that I'm disappointed every time the ride is over, why can't the ride last FOREVER!

...Or may be I'm just illiterate.

BTW: I love you guys & this place :)

[oldpotatoe]

A big plus (1) on that.

I recently had an issue with one of my Serottas and the customer service -and overall result- was outstanding. I believe they have really turned things around over there in the past few months.

In my opinion the Legend is the Benchmark. The Ti frame that all other Ti frames are measured against. Owned a moots once and it just wasn't for me, it felt as though it was a little too flexy in the bottom bracket and rear triangle. The Legend has a way of feeling solid as a rock yet floats along with authority mile after mile while never failing to disappoint no matter what the road throws at me. The fit and hand satin finish on the Legend is just a little more "Wow" compared to bead blast -not to mention that most, if not all the tubes are butted -Moots is all straight gauge- plus each tube varies in outside dimension on the Serotta -tapering- making for one of the most beautiful overall forms that I have ever owned, a true highly functional work of art. ...I -for one- highly recommend it. :)

Back to the original post, wish I could mention why I like my Vamoots, and also how I know Legends, sold a lots of them, when in 2 previous bike shops..1993 till 2000 but sorry.

Send me a PM and we can discuss, to the Original Poster.

Remember when you buy the frame, you also 'buy' the manufacturer and also sometimes the bike shop.

[93legendti]

A big plus (1) on that.

I recently had an issue with one of my Serottas and the customer service -and overall result- was outstanding. I believe they have really turned things around over there in the past few months.

In my opinion the Legend is the Benchmark. The Ti frame that all other Ti frames are measured against. Owned a moots once and it just wasn't for me, it felt as though it was a little too flexy in the bottom bracket and rear triangle. The Legend has a way of feeling solid as a rock yet floats along with authority mile after mile while never failing to disappoint no matter what the road throws at me. The fit and hand satin finish on the Legend is just a little more "Wow" compared to bead blast -not to mention that most, if not all the tubes are butted -Moots is all straight gauge- plus each tube varies in outside dimension on the Serotta -tapering- making for one of the most beautiful overall forms that I have ever owned, a true highly functional work of art. ...I -for one- highly recommend it. :)
Agree 100%.
We go round and round on this every few months. It's always nice to hear from the Moots dealers.
A Moots is built more like Serotta's less expensive ti offerings. In terms of tube manipulations and sophistication, even a Concours is a step above a Moots. If you're happy with your Moots, that's great. I'll take a Legend or a Concours every time.


The Legend should NEVER be compared to the Axiom or the Vamoots.
Speaking in terms of specs, the Axiom compares to our Concours for being double butted, etc. (I could speak at length about this, but will not for the sake of brevity). The Legend doesn't accurately compare with any Seven model, or really any other model currently on the market of which I am aware. The amount of work and sound engineering that goes into producing the Legend is simply far more than any Ti bike available.
Moots does make exquisit Ti bikes. But the tube set that goes into the Vamoots, for example, is not nearly as advanced as anything in the Concours, or especially the Legend.
Clearly I have a biased opinion... but I also know a thing or two about how Ti bikes are built and engineered throughout the industry. Build quality will be equally high with all the aforementioned companies... so the difference comes down to design and philosophy.


Well said and truthful, DBRK. I think we can all agree that ride quality is predominantly a subjective matter when it comes to comparing these bikes. Just look at all that has been written so far. I never claimed that more advanced tubing = a better ride. I am simply stating that approaching engineering from a ride quality point of view allows us to create bicycles that not only ride better, but also are more customizable to the individual rider.

Clearly people are going to compare ride qualities of bikes. I was simply trying to clear up something that we hear constantly. "Why is the Legend so expensive compared to the Axiom?" More goes into producing the Legend - more research, more labor, more advanced tube designs - all to produce the best titanium bicycle we can. Is the ride quality still a matter of personal taste? Yes, of course it is. Does more technology necessarily equal a better product? No, not necessarily. Does sound engineering and more advanced hardware often make a more advanced, more satisfying product? Sure does... I would rather drive a BMW M3 than my Honda Civic, and I would rather ride a more advanced bike, expecially if those advances are geared toward ride quality/enjoyment.

If you want to turn this into an epistemological debate about truth and subjectivity, I am game... but we can do that through email, or preferably over a cold beer. :beer:

[William]

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"...


"Mistaken publications of obituaries aren't as rare as you might expect. A recent example is of Dave Swarbrick, the British folk/rock violinist, who was killed off mistakenly by the Daily Telegraph in April 1999 when they reported that his visit to hospital in Coventry had resulted in his death. He did at least get the opportunity to read a rather favourable account of his life, not something we all get to do, and to deliver the gag "It's not the first time I have died in Coventry".

:):):):)

I think reports of their demise is a bit premature. Especially, according to first hand accounts around this place, things have turned around as of late. Regardless of which is better, everyone has their own bias and experiences and it's pretty clear with so many satisfied Legend and Moots owners around here one would have to conclude you can't go wrong either way.


Just sayin'





William

[Ahneida Ride]

I also tried to reach Serotta several times with a basic question and never received a call back. I did however get and email approx a month later and was referred to this forum (BTW this is a great place I'm glad I was turned on to this forum, learning a lot!) I wont get another Serotta, customer service is important to me.
Tony

Back in 2001, when I got my Serotta, you called and someone picked up.
One morning I called, got Kelly Bedford and asked him how to wrap bar
tape around my bottom bracket. Kelly was so polite is his reply.

Well .... then a few problems happened. ok.... that stage is over.
Call Serotta and you WILL get a live person.
The current Serotta is NOT the Serotta of 6 months ago.

I had the distinct privilege of meeting Bill last week. Bill is not your usual CEO. Let's just put it that way.
Got a problem with Serotta .... just call and ask for Bill. :banana:

[Ahneida Ride]

Incidentally, I have a 2001 Legend Ti Rapid Tour.....

One of the first bikes to come outa the new factory.

Great frame .... I love it. Thanks Serotta !!!!!!

[Ahneida Ride]

Also, after having lousy customer service experiences with Serotta for a few years, I've found things much improved lately. Your mileage may vary, of course.


As I just posted..... Bill is not your usual CEO.

[Smiley]

Get a Moots for two reasons:

1. I sell Moots at my shop

2. I honestly don't think that Serotta is going to have a very long future. Based on the conversations I've had with people who are "in the know" and my knowledge of the current owner I think that it will be a miracle if the company lasts.


...since my opinion counts for so much.

Well Wicked why would you go ahead and blast the second point around IF you don't have first hand knowledge of the situation, this is hear say at best. Slander is a bad thing so I'd watch out on what is posted by you or others if you can't back up this claim. What makes your claim so much worst is your pimping another brand of bike and negative selling against Serotta. I am no lawyer but I like to watch what I say on message boards.

[William]

There is an ancient quote that I think applies here. I'll see if I can remember it correctly from my off-kilter brain...

Moots, don't Moots? Serotta, don't Serotta? You are too concerned about what was and what might be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."



Go for a ride and clear your minds!:)





William

[jr59]

As I just posted..... Bill is not your usual CEO.

This may be true, and I hope it is,
BUT for those of us that tried, and got either no responce or a very snarky one.
It didn't help much. Well it helped Tom Kellogg, cause I ordered 2 Ti bikes from him.

So unless I want to sell them, which I don't. I'll not be in the market for another Ti bike for the rest of my life.

[Ahneida Ride]

Oz been here 10+ years :eek: and this thread comes up like clockwork.

Let me make a few comments.

My current Legend is a 64 (My fitter specified a 65..... I begged and talked
him down to a 64). He was correct. 65 is my size... Mea culpa

I've ridden two frames that fit properly. A Serotta Ottrott and my current Bedford.
Both frames were drafted by Kelly and both frames
had identical wheels built by the same wheel-smith.
So a comparison is perhaps valid.

Both frames where built to be "Sport Touring" bikes. One bike is lugged steel
and the other carbon/Ti. One bike has a steel fork and the other a carbon fork.

Both frames are extremely comfortable and responsive. However the
frames ride fundamentally different. The Ottrott feels like you are riding on a magic
carpet while the Bedford feels like Kelly installed a small motor inside.

It is impossible to state which is the better frame. At this level of
talent and refinement, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Blonds or Brunettes ? :rolleyes:

[Bruce K]

Red heads, please !!!

BK

[WickedWheels]

Apologies all around. Certainly not the brightest post and was only an opinion.

[oldpotatoe]

Apologies all around. Certainly not the brightest post and was only an opinion.

\?????

[William]

There is an ancient quote that I think applies here. I'll see if I can remember it correctly from my off-kilter brain...


Moots, don't Moots? Serotta, don't Serotta? You are too concerned about what was and what might be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."


Go for a ride and clear your minds!






William