OT: can someone explain nascar to me?

[crownjewelwl]

so i'm trying to watch the Daytona 500...i just don't get it

i'm sure there is a lot of strategy involved, etc. but i still don't get it

lot's of peeps probably say the same thing about bike racing...

help me

[William]

so i'm trying to watch the Daytona 500...i just don't get it

i'm sure there is a lot of strategy involved, etc. but i still don't get it

lot's of peeps probably say the same thing about bike racing...

help me

Pedal to floor....turn left long time.



;);):)
William

[ultraman6970]

You forgot to mention the most important thing, the wheels at the outside are bigger to help the guy to turn.

[FlashUNC]

On super speedways like that, drafting is everything.

[eddief]

everyone likes to say her name. Even me.

[rugbysecondrow]

I am not a NASCAR fan, but folks who are into it talk about the pit stops, crew chief, the team etc. Not terribly dissimilar than bike racing, aside from the engine. All the cars are regulated to be "equal", to control that variable, which leaves the driver, team and crews as the variables for success.

[spaced_ghost]

go fast, turn left.

[rugbysecondrow]

everyone likes to say her name. Even me.

Know this name, Christmas Abbott...she is hard core, hot and the newest thing in NASCAR.

[rice rocket]

:eek:

[bobswire]

I am not a NASCAR fan, but folks who are into it talk about the pit stops, crew chief, the team etc. Not terribly dissimilar than bike racing, aside from the engine. All the cars are regulated to be "equal", to control that variable, which leaves the driver, team and crews as the variables for success.

Agree, I'm sure the folks who really are into to it wonder why folks enjoy watching cycling.

[Lewis Moon]

I am not a NASCAR fan, but folks who are into it talk about the pit stops, crew chief, the team etc. Not terribly dissimilar than bike racing, aside from the engine. All the cars are regulated to be "equal", to control that variable, which leaves the driver, team and crews as the variables for success.

...and cheating. You forgot about cheating.

The guy two doors down used to be a "Skunk Works" prototype machinist for GM. He sez: "Cheating is an art". A flatter panal here, a slightly different shape there....

[rugbysecondrow]

Agree, I'm sure the folks who really are into to it wonder why folks enjoy watching cycling.

I won't sit down and watch either, although I am good in spurts of 5 min or less. Enough to pop in, check on the status, then move on.

I understand it though, just not my cup-o-tea to sit down and watch for the duration...golf is the same way.

...and cheating. You forgot about cheating.

The guy two doors down used to be a "Skunk Works" prototype machinist for GM. He sez: "Cheating is an art". A flatter panal here, a slightly different shape there....

I didn't forget it so much as I did omit it. That is why "Equal" was in quotes. There is cheating or advantage playing in all sports, so I am not certain it really needed to be called out.

[William]

Know this name, Christmas Abbott...she is hard core, hot and the newest thing in NASCAR.

CUPPOW!!!!:cool:





William

[verticaldoug]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcbsi8itHw

go to 4minute mark when he is behind the wheel.

TOP Gear
Richard Hammond does NASCAR

If anyone is going to be snobby about NASCAR, you'd expect the TOP GEAR crew from England. Surprisingly, Hammond is a huge buyer. .

I think you have to be there.
If you think F1 is better, you haven't watched a Gran Prix race in awhile.
Boring.

[rugbysecondrow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcbsi8itHw

TOP Gear
Richard Hammond does NASCAR

If anyone is going to be snobby about NASCAR, you'd expect the TOP GEAR crew from England. Surprisingly, Hammond is a huge buyer. .

I think you have to be there.
If you think F1 is better, you haven't watched a Gran Prix race in awhile.
Boring.

A buddy was a pit crew member for a Grand Prix team and we went to the race, pit etc. It was boring, very boring. Maybe if I had some of the headsets to listen to crew and cross talk, but we didn't.

I was forced to drink too much beer and eat fried food to make the evening a success. I did get to see Ashley Judd up close in the winners circle...she is gorgeous.

Cheers!

[carpediemracing]

When trying to explain bike racing to non-riders I compare bike racing to Nascar.

"In NASCAR they all stay in a group because drafting is so important. It's like that in bike racing too, that's why they're always in a big group."

"You can make a big move but you have to time it right. Because the draft is so important it's much easier to stay in the group. You go too early and you blow up on the bike, like in NASCAR you end up using up your tires or gas whatever."

I don't watch NASCAR but I have to say that watching F1 is not quite as chaotic, except at the starts or if it rains.

[rice rocket]

Talladega Nights is probably the most informative NASCAR documentary.;)

[Gummee]

I can watch the first few laps of an F1 race, then it gets kinda dull. Cars going round in circles with no passing? Nah. Places determined by fuel strategy and/or pit stops? Nah.

NASCAR jumped the shark when it regulated everything to the Nth degree. Give me a Superbird vs Torino Talladega battle over spec bodies racing spec engines any day. Give the manufacturers free run and stand back and watch! Much mo bettah than what we've got today.

M

[carpediemracing]

Talladega Nights is probably the most informative NASCAR documentary.;)

I need to put that in my queue. Thanks for reminding me :)

[bostondrunk]

talladega nights is probably the most informative nascar documentary.;)

that...just...happened!


:)

[Gummee]

I need to put that in my queue. Thanks for reminding me :)

Do yourself a favor and give yourself a lobotomy now. That movie drained MANY IQ points that I didn't have to lose!

M

[saab2000]

Talladega Nights is probably the most informative NASCAR documentary.;)

Exactly like Airplane! is far, far more instructive of the real world of aviation than any other movie before or since.

As to the cheating? I have a buddy who has been involved with motor sports his whole life. I met up with him at NAHBS and we walked around as he's a welder by profession and can definitely appreciate the fabrication of the bikes.

I asked him about 'cheating' in motor sports. Everything he described sounded legal to me with the possible exception of one thing: fuel lines. Most high end categories limit fuel tank size. So there are creative ways to increase the length of the fuel lines to increase fuel capacity. But everything else he described sounded exactly like what happens in the world of cycling that is absolutely accepted practice. For example, nobody would describe Zipp's dimpled wheels as cheating. They may or may not be effective, but it's not illegal. Same with wearing aerodynamic clothing or spending time in wind tunnels or whatever.

The equipment matters in auto racing a whole lot more and so the attention to detail is of critical importance but most of what he described was exactly that, attention to detail. It wasn't cheating by the way I would understand it.

Except the fuel line thing, which I though was pretty cool..... :D

[fiamme red]

Know this name, Christmas Abbott...she is hard core, hot and the newest thing in NASCAR.She reminds me of that old Groucho Marx song...

Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia the tattooed lady
She has eyes that men adore so
And a torso even more so
Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclopedia
Lydia, the queen of tattoo
On her back is the Battle of Waterloo
Beside it the Wreck of the Hesperus, too
And proudly above waves the red, white and blue
You can learn a lot from Lydia

(la la la la la la)

When her robe is unfurled, she will show you the world
If you step up and tell her where
For a dime you can see Kankakee or Paree
Or Washington crossing the Delaware

(la la la la la la)
(la la la la la la)

Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia the tattooed lady
When her muscles start relaxin'
Up the hill comes Andrew Jackson
Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclopedia
Lydia, the queen of tattoo
For two bits she will do a mazurka in jazz
With a view of Niagara that nobody has
And on a clear day, you can see Alcatraz
You can learn a lot from Lydia...

[FlashUNC]

Talladega Nights is probably the most informative NASCAR documentary.;)

Shake and Bake!

[54ny77]

christina abbott--hubba hubba.

human torque wrench.

[Dave B]

I am trying to like NASCAR simply as we (Indy) have the Brikyard 400 as well as other events. I will say it is a fun atmosphere to witness folks behaving like...well NASCAR fans. I went to this race, the Indy 500 and the grand prix (when it came here) and the difference in culture at the different events was amazing. I missed out on the MotoGP race last year, but plan to try that out coming this new season.

I think racing has some incredibly difficult aspects to understand. The stress these drivers put themselves through is pretty crazy. 200 miles an hour bumping and rubbing while keeping the car in control-ish takes skill. The set up, cheating, whatever takes tremendous skill. I think there are some great aspects to all of this just as I find some of it boring as wathing the carpet grow.

all good bay-bee


Plus my wife and I named our son William (after happycampyer) Robert (after my father-in-law) Bradley (well..after me)

So if he goes NASCAR on us he is set up to be a winer. Billy Bob Bradley couldn't be a better NASCAR name even if we had planned it that way. My brother-in-law the NASCAR loving truck dirver pointed that one out to us.

Yep Liz and I have never put it together that way.

[Ralph]

NASCAR can get kind of boring. But it takes incredible skill and know how, plus a lot of money, to set up a car to run up front in NASCAR. You have to know so much. Spend huge on wind tunnels, understand the smallest nuiances of front end alignment (rear also on those solid axle cars that have some negative camber in rear), shucks....you even have to hire an engineer to do nothing but modify and tune the shock absorbers. In it's own way, it's ever bit as high tech and challenging as any other type of motor sport.

Even the engines....those old tech push rod engines of the 60's....they have so much hi tech in those old tech engines, they turn them almost 10,000 on every straight part of track for 500 miles. Few break these days.

Even the drivers have incredible skill. It's not easy to man handle a 3300 lb race car 4-5 hours, not wreck, stay in the draft so you have a chance of winning, get the pit stops right, and satisfy your sponsor off the track. Few drivers from Indy and Formula 1 make it in NASCAR....although some do when they come over for the money.

It's easy to make fun of the "bubba" image of the sport, but it works as a business, for owners, sponsors, crew, and drivers. However....these days I much prefer watching them at home.

[fuzzalow]

NASCAR tries hard to being a spectacle, which IMO makes it a hairsbreadth away from a farce, and usually delivers. The common fan likes to see the crashes.

Motorsport, in all its forms be it sprint midgets to F1, lives by the same 2 commandments: it ian't cheatin' unless you get caught and if you're not cheatin', then you're not trying hard enough.

Some folks here into track time for cars might have driven at Pocono - the North infield road course uses the 1st turn banking of the oval and is the turn with the steepest bank. I've driven it many times and yes there is both a line and an apex for getting through a high banking turn on an oval. Also, as a driver, driving that turn is not much challenge & boring.

NASCAR has never been mainly about driver skill in raw speed. More like gotta be smart enough & know the game. Spotters, pit crew, strategy.

To be fair, doing those turns surrounded by other cars is I'd guess, tricky and a challenge. The racing line is big, but not 3 abreast big. And any car on the limit is finely balanced.

Lose the back end, bump, rotate, crash. Spills & chills. More Budweiser.

[shovelhd]

I've been a NASCAR fan all my life. I watched it as a kid with my Dad. After a while you just ignore the elitist crap from the open wheel bigots. Either you get it, or you don't. For some reason, these people aren't satisfied, they have the need to pile on, stereotype, and denigrate. Whatever floats your boat. I like all kinds of racing.

Danica was one move away from winning that race yesterday. All she had to do was drop in front of the #48 as he pulled up on the inside with 3 to go. He would have pushed her to the win. No way he would have come around her without wrecking her, and he'd be crucified if he did that.

[1/2 Wheeler]

so i'm trying to watch the Daytona 500...i just don't get it

i'm sure there is a lot of strategy involved, etc. but i still don't get it

lot's of peeps probably say the same thing about bike racing...

help me

I don't get what it is that you don't get?

The car/driver that does the specified distance the quickest wins.

If you don't get why people watch it that is a different story.

If you want to be a fan you HAVE to commit to a favorite driver(s) and dirver(s) that you hate. Otherwise it is boring.

I think the same can be said for any sport.

[christian]

Some folks here into track time for cars might have driven at Pocono - the North infield road course uses the 1st turn banking of the oval and is the turn with the steepest bank. I've driven it many times and yes there is both a line and an apex for getting through a high banking turn on an oval. Also, as a driver, driving that turn is not much challenge & boring.I've driven the tri-Oval at Pocono in a Corvette ZR-1. Coming into turn one at 155 mph was actually one of the scarier things I've done in a car -- it looks like a square left-hand turn. But yes, becomes easier with practice. What doesn't?

Doing it 50 mph faster and braking 60-100 yards later, with other 3500 lbs cars around? Um, yeah, those boys can drive.

My former chauffeur Travis got 10th in the Nationwide race. Good start!

[Dave B]

I've driven the tri-Oval at Pocono in a Corvette ZR-1. Coming into turn one at 155 mph was actually one of the scarier things I've done in a car -- it looks like a square left-hand turn. But yes, becomes easier with practice. What doesn't?

this sounds awesome!

Doing it 50 mph faster and braking 60-100 yards later, with other 3500 lbs cars around? Um, yeah, those boys can drive.

This even more so!

My former chauffeur Travis got 10th in the Nationwide race. Good start!

wow! I think we should talk! :)

[rice rocket]

I've never driven Pocono, but I have NHIS, road course edition. Probably my favorite track in the Northeast, that "bowl" in unbelievable. I enjoyed it more than Lime Rock, which is much more scary...my day there ended with a Z06 on top of the tirewall before the Back Straight. I'm guessing he got air on the uphill, panicked, lifted, and landed wheels not-so-straight.

[fuzzalow]

Coming into turn one at 155 mph was actually one of the scarier things I've done in a car -- it looks like a square left-hand turn. But yes, becomes easier with practice. What doesn't?

Doing it 50 mph faster and braking 60-100 yards later, with other 3500 lbs cars around? Um, yeah, those boys can drive.

Yeah, well it's all good. But you'd have a funny time explaining to an average driver the almost boring run of 155mph down the long straight into turn 1 - just hold it flat, and wait...and wait...and wait...and wait. OK, turn comin' up, fun time!

I've never driven Pocono, but I have NHIS, road course edition. Probably my favorite track in the Northeast, that "bowl" in unbelievable. I enjoyed it more than Lime Rock, which is much more scary...my day there ended with a Z06 on top of the tirewall before the Back Straight. I'm guessing he got air on the uphill, panicked, lifted, and landed wheels not-so-straight.

NHIS bowl is indeed fun. And yes also to the view that Lime Rock is scary. There is not much that is more terrifying than the commitment and the compression of the downhill run into the last turn before the main straight. No place to go on the left except 20 yards of grass & ARMCO if you screw up.

[saab2000]

Question for the NASCAR folks: how much braking is there in the sport? And by that I mean the ovals. Road tracks clearly involve it. But I do wonder if there's significant strategic use of braking on the oval tracks.

[TimD]

.. And yes also to the view that Lime Rock is scary. There is not much that is more terrifying than the commitment and the compression of the downhill run into the last turn before the main straight. No place to go on the left except 20 yards of grass & ARMCO if you screw up.

Been through there at 90 MPH in my bone-stock 993, howling into my helmet, instructor screaming back "DON'T LIFT! DON'T LIFT!"

Good times :banana:

[christian]

But I do wonder if there's significant strategic use of braking on the oval tracks.Plenty. No coasting in NASCAR. You're either on the gas or on the brake. It's not like they "lift" from 205 to take those corners!

[AngryScientist]

i dont follow nascar, or know any of the history, but i thought the original idea was to take cars right off the showroom floor and race them. win on sunday, buy on monday type of marketing.

that i get.

taking a flat out race car, and slapping "monte carlo" or "taurus" on the bumper, that to me is just silly. a nascar monte carlo or taurus shares absolutely nothing with it's namesake on the showroom floor, who are they fooling doing that?

[GregL]

And yes also to the view that Lime Rock is scary. There is not much that is more terrifying than the commitment and the compression of the downhill run into the last turn before the main straight. No place to go on the left except 20 yards of grass & ARMCO if you screw up.

I still remember my first instructor at Lime Rock telling me to "aim five feet inside the apex (on the downhill turn) and you'll be just fine..."

[shovelhd]

Question for the NASCAR folks: how much braking is there in the sport? And by that I mean the ovals. Road tracks clearly involve it. But I do wonder if there's significant strategic use of braking on the oval tracks.

On the large plate tracks like Daytona and Talledega, not so much, but on the short tracks, brakes are incredibly important. I couldn't find a photo quickly, but if you look for photos of the Martinsville night race, the brake rotors are glowing white hot. Martinsville cars run special brake ducts and fans which the driver can turn on from the cockpit if braking starts to fade. It also has the effect of cooling the front of the tire so if the car is loose that will tighten it up. Think about it. These are 3500 pound cars with 850hp that need to slow from ~140mph to ~60mph twice per lap for 500 laps. That's a lot of braking.

[christian]

taking a flat out race car, and slapping "monte carlo" or "taurus" on the bumper, that to me is just silly. a nascar monte carlo or taurus shares absolutely nothing with it's namesake on the showroom floor, who are they fooling doing that?I raced rally cars that were built off production cars - i.e. the team would get a production car and strip it, and start the build from that. When they were done, the following parts would usually remain standard:

- the windshield
- the front windows
- the electric window switches
- the door-latches and trunk latch
- the external skin of the doors, a-pillars, b-pillars, and c-pillars
- the roof

So I'm not sure that "building a car from stock" is all that much different. Race cars are race cars. Nobody demands that TdF bikes should have to be hotted up 1950s Raleigh Sports.

[AngryScientist]

Nobody demands that TdF bikes should have to be hotted up 1950s Raleigh Sports.

how is that a valid comparison at all? as far as i know you very well can go buy a identical TdF race bike at any specialized/trek/colnago dealer???:confused:

[saab2000]

On the large plate tracks like Daytona and Talledega, not so much, but on the short tracks, brakes are incredibly important. I couldn't find a photo quickly, but if you look for photos of the Martinsville night race, the brake rotors are glowing white hot. Martinsville cars run special brake ducts and fans which the driver can turn on from the cockpit if braking starts to fade. It also has the effect of cooling the front of the tire so if the car is loose that will tighten it up. Think about it. These are 3500 pound cars with 850hp that need to slow from ~140mph to ~60mph twice per lap for 500 laps. That's a lot of braking.

Good points. Mostly the casual observer (like myself) only sees the big name races like Daytona where it would appear that they are pedal-to-the-metal from the green flag forward, except during caution flag periods and pits.

It would be an understatement to say it would be a blast to do one of the 'Experience' events like Richard Petty used to have, even if just sitting in a passenger seat and letting a professional do the driving.

[redir]

I'm not a fan but I respect anyone who's got what it takes to go 200mph on a track with others inches away from them. I think it's boring but it is kind of cool to just watch for a few minutes. I've done 140mph in my Merc e420 and that was enough speed for me :eek:

[shovelhd]

i dont follow nascar, or know any of the history, but i thought the original idea was to take cars right off the showroom floor and race them. win on sunday, buy on monday type of marketing.

that i get.

taking a flat out race car, and slapping "monte carlo" or "taurus" on the bumper, that to me is just silly. a nascar monte carlo or taurus shares absolutely nothing with it's namesake on the showroom floor, who are they fooling doing that?

There are showroom classes in other racing series if you prefer watching "stock" cars race.

The bodies are very similar to the production models in shape. Safety concerns require the use of a tubular chassis with a full roll cage, so any monocoque chassis is out. Cup cars still use V-8 motors with manual transmissions, clutches, and a solid rear end.

Monte Carlos used to be rear wheel drive until recently. Camrys, never. Running a front wheel drive look-alike body on a rear wheel drive race chassis, that has been a complaint of NASCAR fans for a while. Things are starting to head back the other way, though. The return of the Camaro to NASCAR is a good start.

[FlashUNC]

i dont follow nascar, or know any of the history, but i thought the original idea was to take cars right off the showroom floor and race them. win on sunday, buy on monday type of marketing.

that i get.

taking a flat out race car, and slapping "monte carlo" or "taurus" on the bumper, that to me is just silly. a nascar monte carlo or taurus shares absolutely nothing with it's namesake on the showroom floor, who are they fooling doing that?

The original idea was a race series to give the moonshine runners something to do when they weren't flouting the law with their souped up coupes and sedans.

Through probably the 1990's it still had components of being "stock" cars. Dodge built the Daytonas in the late 1960's/early 1970's just to continue Richard Petty's dominance on the super speedways. But since the 1990's and the push for greater car consistency -- eliminating the mechanical advantage of having a better car with restrictor plates, uniform aerodynamic rules, etc -- and safety, the idea of each car being a race analogue to a stock platform has fallen by the wayside.

Heck, the headlights are just stickers for Pete's sake.

[54ny77]

i would absolutely love to get behind the wheel of a nascar ride, even as a passenger. might stuff an adult diaper in the nomex suit while i'm at it, just in case. :p

[rice rocket]

I raced rally cars that were built off production cars - i.e. the team would get a production car and strip it, and start the build from that. When they were done, the following parts would usually remain standard:

- the windshield
- the front windows
- the electric window switches
- the door-latches and trunk latch
- the external skin of the doors, a-pillars, b-pillars, and c-pillars
- the roof

So I'm not sure that "building a car from stock" is all that much different. Race cars are race cars. Nobody demands that TdF bikes should have to be hotted up 1950s Raleigh Sports.

I'd still be up for some FIA homologation specials like they had in the past. :)

[shovelhd]

eliminating the mechanical advantage of having a better car with restrictor plates, uniform aerodynamic rules, etc -- and safety, the idea of each car being a race analogue to a stock platform has fallen by the wayside.

The primary factor for NASCAR adding restrictor plates, playing with spoilers, wings, etc., is sold as safety but it's really about insurance. There is something about 200mph that insurers are afraid of. NASCAR will do everything it can to keep top speeds as close to 200mph as possible but not over.

[Ralph]

Yes.....on the short tracks....Incredible brake technology.....air ducts and cooling fans to cool the brakes, which can cool the tires (at least help keep the tire bead from coming loose), temperature of brake rotors effects tire temps, which affect handling. Weight of brake parts affect handling. On big tracks....lightest brakes possible and still have brakes, less unsprung weight....keeping tires on pavement....corners faster.

NASCAR teams are really into huge front brakes on short tracks as light as possible. They know all about the importance of keeping unsprung weight down. They also run cooling fans blowing on transmission and rear end also. Not just on the brakes. They might turn these off with a few laps to go. Less drag on alternator, more HP to wheels.

When they qualify, cars set up totally differnt from when they race. Qualifying is almost a sport itself....which is why qualifying is shown live. Engine runs super light oil. Probably oil on wheel bearings, not heavy grease. Light wt differential oil, not heavy rear end grease. Fewer vanes on water pump (maybe). Brake calipers pulled back away from rotors. Radiators blocked off. Maybe fan belt not connected. And on and on, etc. I like to watch cars being prepared for qualifying. They over heat after a lap or two. That's where the engineering really comes into play. Most of the crew setting this up is formally educated trained engineers. Lots of science used here.

Getting the front alignment to work on each different tracks is also interesting to me. They run a lot of positive caster on right front....as well as a lot of negative camber on right front. Left front gets just the opposite. They run some negative camber on right rear also...with a solid axle panhard bar set up. Car is set up to almost turn it'self....without drag down the straights. Who gets this right is usually fastest. Lately....on some tracks....they have been off setting the body on the frame....so the right rear sticks out a little to the right and catches the side draft a tad on the corner. When car comes down the straight a way, it looks a little like it's going sideways. "crabbing". NASCAR recently put a limit on this.

I enjoy the part the engineers and crew play in NASCAR. Without understanding all of this is going on....I can understand why some think it's a boring simple sport.

[shovelhd]

Fewer vanes on water pump (maybe).

Maybe they'd get away with that once, claiming that the vanes were "defective" or "broken", but not again. Once a car is qualified, you cannot touch the engine other than to change the oil and make adjustments, or you go to the back of the field for the start.

[SoCalSteve]

i dont follow nascar, or know any of the history, but i thought the original idea was to take cars right off the showroom floor and race them. win on sunday, buy on monday type of marketing.

that i get.

taking a flat out race car, and slapping "monte carlo" or "taurus" on the bumper, that to me is just silly. a nascar monte carlo or taurus shares absolutely nothing with it's namesake on the showroom floor, who are they fooling doing that?


NASCAR came about when moonshine bootleggers would fix up their cars to outrun the police...then they would race them on the weekends ( at least that's the story Richard Hammond told on Top Gear)...

I'm sure the win on Sunday, buy on Monday came much later in the history of the sport.

[William]

Through probably the 1990's it still had components of being "stock" cars. Dodge built the Daytonas in the late 1960's/early 1970's just to continue Richard Petty's dominance on the super speedways.

That was true, but you could still buy them off the showroom floor. I think there had to be at least a production run of 500 units but I could be remembering that wrong. They dominated and that led to the beginnings of the changes and where we are today. They didn't actually sell a lot of the Daytonas and Superbirds at the time, but they fetch some serious money today.

Edit: That was 2000 units, not 500. Bobby Isaac broke the 200 mph barrier in a Doge Daytona in 1970.




William

[FlashUNC]

The primary factor for NASCAR adding restrictor plates, playing with spoilers, wings, etc., is sold as safety but it's really about insurance. There is something about 200mph that insurers are afraid of. NASCAR will do everything it can to keep top speeds as close to 200mph as possible but not over.

The irony is its made things more dangerous if anything. Now everyone just runs in one giant pack and everyone waits for "The Big One" to take out half the field.

[Ralph]

If you tried to race "stock" cars, even the hi performance models each manufactuer produces.....The race would only last a couple laps. Most engines would over heat, the front spindles would break off in the corners, the brakes would over heat, etc, etc, etc. A few more exotic cars would last a little longer....M3's, some 911's, Maybe some AMG Mercedes, cars like that, etc.

There is a good reason racing series allow some modifications....even in lowest classes.

[norcalbiker]

I remember watching it one time and it gave me a big headache.

[MattTuck]

Heck, the headlights are just stickers for Pete's sake.

This is one of the all time ridiculous things.


:)


As for the earlier comment about pit crews making a big difference in races. I do not know the name of one pro tour cycling mechanic off the top of my head. They are important in car racing. Less so in cycling. I think probably because pitting is a mandatory part of racing and thus a strategic choice on when it happens. In cycling, you only see the mechanic if you have problem.

[1/2 Wheeler]

One of the things that differentiate cycling road racing from almost all other forms of racing is that at times they are effectively soft pedaling. Through the feed zone, during nature breaks, or any other dozens of reasons.

NASCAR, like damn near every other form of racing, is pedal to the floor start to finish unless there are required restrictions (yellow flag).

Even in marathons, the runners pace themselves but I do not think there is nearly as much group running as you have in cycling. I don't recall any other form of racing where they are chatting it up as much as the peloton does. It ruins it for many people.

[joep2517]

That was true, but you could still buy them off the showroom floor. I think there had to be at least a production run of 500 units but I could be remembering that wrong. They dominated and that led to the beginnings of the changes and where we are today. They didn't actually sell a lot of the Daytonas and Superbirds at the time, but they fetch some serious money today.

Edit: That was 2000 units, not 500. Bobby Isaac broke the 200 mph barrier in a Doge Daytona in 1970.




William


William,

For some reason that number stuck in my head too. I though during the 60's and early 70's the manufacturers had to produce 500 cars to have them race in their series.

I know Wiki is the source of all knowledge :). I found this on their site:

NASCAR once enforced a homologation rule that at various times stated that at least 500 cars had to be produced, or as many as one car for every make's dealership in the nation had to be sold to the general public to allow it to be raced. Eventually, cars were made expressly for NASCAR competition, including the Ford Torino Talladega, which had a rounded nose, and the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird which had a rear wing raised above roof level and a shark shaped nose-cap which enabled speeds of over 220 mph (350 km/h). Beginning in 1970, NASCAR rewrote the rules to effectively outlaw such outlandish aerodynamic devices.

Either way, back then the saying was "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday"

The new Gen 6 car is trying to bring that saying back.

[zap]

NASCAR=ancient technology.

Nothing horribly innovative going on in NASCAR but does keep costs down relative to other racing series.

I prefer Aussie stock car racing.......they have some wicked long courses....

or German DTM.

But, despite old tech, the racing is still pretty good and incredible talent (management, engineers, pit crew and driver) is needed to be successful.

F1 starts soon.....

[rice rocket]

Hey, watch your mouth. NASCAR has fuel injection now!


Snide remarks aside, they actually have more advanced wind tunnel and rolling road technology than most F1 teams. Many many people in touring car and F1 come work at NASCAR because that's where the money is. There is room within the limits of ruleset to optimize, but since a lot of things are "spec", the optimization is in the finer points. Any advantage is an advantage.

[crownjewelwl]

no one on this forum knows anything about nascar...

thanks folks!!

[Ken Robb]

i would absolutely love to get behind the wheel of a nascar ride, even as a passenger. might stuff an adult diaper in the nomex suit while i'm at it, just in case. :p

This is easy-check on-line for "NASCAR Experience", Andretti Driving School, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

so i'm trying to watch the Daytona 500...i just don't get it

i'm sure there is a lot of strategy involved, etc. but i still don't get it

lot's of peeps probably say the same thing about bike racing...

help me

The team managers/crew chiefs/owners yakking with other managers/crew chiefs/owners with a few laps to go speaks volumes.

The only thing Ford/Toyota/Chevy of those cars are the emblem, the shape and where some of the $ comes from. All are handmade, all with unique engines. BUT the good old boys will go buy a Chevy if one wins the Daytona 500,

Gonna be a while before the good ole boys will let a woman or anybody but them, win this thing.

I don't really 'get it' either.

[zap]

Snide remarks aside, they actually have more advanced wind tunnel and rolling road technology than most F1 teams. Many many people in touring car and F1 come work at NASCAR because that's where the money is. There is room within the limits of ruleset to optimize, but since a lot of things are "spec", the optimization is in the finer points. Any advantage is an advantage.

NASCAR is quite small compared to F1 in terms of worldwide audience and monies.

I'm not doubting that NASCAR teams have top notch engineers, but I have to believe that engineers at Mclaren have a mid level NASCAR Sprint teams annual budget to spend on further refining their titanium/carbon composite 7 speed transmission for the 2013 season.

Montoya certainly has had a good go at NASCAR since his F1 days. It has been reported that he hated all the testing done in F1 and the need to stay in shape.
In NASCAR he races tons and can eat what he wants. It's been fun watching him adjust to the nuances of NASCAR racing.

[R2D2]

Most have a cro-moly frame so there is that connection to cycling.
And drafting. And air pressure or stagger.
And some like Tim Richmond and Jeremy Mayfield and AJ Allmendingere
used some strong peds.
And the Charlotte area has some of the best engine builders/fabricators/wind tunnels in the world.

But it is just go fasts turn left like cycling is breakaway and stay away.

[fuzzalow]

For the curious and those that haven't driven a track lap at Lime Rock Park (LRP) I wanted to describe how and why the last turn could be considered nerve wracking even by driver enthusiasts that track or race their cars. Why not, it is off season for a bike forumites in the Northern Hemisphere and it maybe worth a minute to read.

The last turn at LRP is not to be feared but respected. Track time is fun and there is no need to drive over your head. Those that do, may do so out of ego, ignorance and stupidity and often pay a terrible penalty. Every good driver respects the potential aftermath of speed.

The last turn at LRP comes after a short straight that is severly downhill. The straight does not slope smoothly into the entry turn-in of the curve but rather bottoms out to level ground before turn entry. Because the last curve leads to the main straight, carrying as much speed as possible yields faster speed along the longest straight of the track and potentially a better lap time. So at speed it feels like a roller coaster down with a right turn just as the car is squished down on its suspension from hitting level ground after the downhill run leading into the turn.

The compression is what can make it a tricky and dangerous curve. The car is accelerating, off-throttle, braking, compressing its suspension travel and initiating turn-in. Not necessarily all at the same time but almost simultaneously and also in sequence and all within a 2 second time frame. There is weight (center of gravity - CG) shift of the car happening each step of the way. CG back on acceleration, neutral on off-throttle, forward on braking, severely forward on braking & suspension compression, left on turn-in, backwards and left as car levels out. All these forces acting on the car is what makes the turn unforgiving as it decreases the margin for error. These forces that unsettle the car make it much harder to pull back and control in the event of driver error. Newtonian physics.

The driver must hit the correct mark for braking and turn-in. There is a heel-toe downshift under moderate braking to 3rd gear. The car must be oriented correctly on turn-in to make the apex of the curve. If the car is early apexed, it may run out of road on exit. And there is minimal run-off except grass and ARMCO. As long as this curve is approached with small nibbles of increasing speed, it can be done confidently and with commitment. But even this is not possible unless there is the driver skill to repeat accurately the lap times so that the entry, mid-corner & exit speeds can be increased incrementally.

Sound complicated? It is and it isn't. What I've described is just one turn. And not in traffic fender to fender and nose to tail. And this is what is more than may meet the eye for the average driver.

Which also gets back to the NASCAR discussion. All of those drivers have skill. It may be specialized and optimized to their specialty and genre in motorsport, but is is still present and developed to the highest degree. The subtlety in skills and approach is astounding.

I am not a fan of NASCAR in any way except for the sound of the motors. But these good 'ol boy drivers still gotta know something. And that they do.

[cash05458]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG2OcW_Hwkg


This should help explain everything...:p

[William]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG2OcW_Hwkg


This should help explain everything...:p

Well, you can't turn left there because you'll go on to that little grassy area; and thats not allowed.:D;)





William

[rice rocket]

NASCAR is quite small compared to F1 in terms of worldwide audience and monies.

I'm not doubting that NASCAR teams have top notch engineers, but I have to believe that engineers at Mclaren have a mid level NASCAR Sprint teams annual budget to spend on further refining their titanium/carbon composite 7 speed transmission for the 2013 season.


Bernie Eccelestone pockets all the money. ;)

Here's where NASCAR teams blow their wad:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/nascar/the-secrets-of-laurel-hill/
http://www.gizmag.com/go/8106/

[Gummee]

If you want to be a fan you HAVE to commit to a favorite driver(s) and dirver(s) that you hate. Otherwise it is boring.
Sounds like wrasslin to me!

WWE FTW bay-bee!

M

[zap]

Bernie Eccelestone pockets all the money. ;)




Yes, Bernie is very wealthy.

You want a job.....Mercedes is looking for a few good engineers.

http://www.mercedes-amg-f1.com/en/#/category/recruitment/