My 23c vs 25c tire experience

[SteveV0983]

Just curious if others have had any similar situations to this. I had always ridden 23c tires (typically Vredestein Fortezza Tricomps) on my old Open Pro rims. Then I got a set of HED Belgium C2s (wonderfully built up by echelon John) and immediately felt a comfort and handling difference with the exact same tire on the new wider rims. I wanted to try 25c tires and Tricomps were not available at the time so I tried a set of Vittoria Rubino Pro III and was surprised to find that I wasn't as impressed as I thought I was going to be. Everything I had heard about 25c tires was that they were going to be so great, but they are not any more comfortable than the 23 Tricomps and they do not corner nearly as well. It's like my turning radius increased going to the Vittorias and I feel much less secure cornering.
So I sit here wondering:
1) Is the Tricomp just simply a better tire (at cornering anyway) or
2) Maybe there is no advantage of the 25 tire once you have the 23 rim or
3) Maybe the 25 Tricomps (which are now available) would give me more of what I was expecting out of a 25 with the added cornering that I was used to before I switched to the Vittorias. And to be fair, the Vittorias do ride very nice and have been extremely puncture resistant. But they just don't handle as well.

Anyone have any similar experiences with wider rims plus wider tires? Or have any of you Tricomp groupies out there (and you know who you are, and I am one of them) tried the 25s vs the 23s.

Any input/experiences are welcome.
Thanks.

[thwart]

I found that 23 mm rims with 23 mm tires were a minor improvement.

OTOH, 23 mm rims with 25 mm tires... major upgrade.

This was with Michelin PR3's. When you start mixing different tires in then you have too many variables, IMO.

[SteveV0983]

Makes sense and I agree that there are too many variables. But your opinion about the same tire in both 23 and 25 on a 23 rim is the type of feedback I was looking for.

[biker.caliente]

I replaced my rear tire of 23mm GP4000S on my Ksyrium as a result of cutting with another GP4000S in 25mm. I really didn't feel any difference when I pumped the 25 to 110psi as opposed to the 100psi I did with the 23mm and my average speed remain the same. There is, however, a slight improvement in comfort when I dropped to 100psi on the 25mm. This actually comes at a price of increase rolling reistance. There is a big descent on my regular route and I just let myself roll down the hill. The top speed with the 25mm was 1.5% shy comparing to that when I was on 23mm.

1.5% vs slightly better comfort. It comes down to choice.

[Kane]

I pumped the 25 to 110psi as opposed to the 100psi I did with the 23mm and my average speed remain the same.
1.5% vs slightly better comfort. It comes down to choice.

I like your attempt to be scientific, but I am doubting your numbers based upon small sample size. Rolling resistance is proven to be less with a wider tire. You want a little less air pressure to make the ride more comfortable and to improve the handling IME.
Cheers,
Kane

[Rubeboy]

I've been riding Vred Tricomps on standard rims (aerohead, DT 1450 etc) for years and years, usually around 110psi - and I love(d) them. I recently tried some A23s and some C2s with the same tricomps and felt a difference, especially on descents. I then tried Conti GP4000s 25s on the wider rims and...
Okay, perhaps I'm buying the hype, but I love the ride.
I can ride them at 90psi front and 95-100 rear and the feel is amazing.
Descending is an entirely different experience and rough roads rumbles are greatly minimized.
I was totally sold on the durability and grip on the tricomps but the Contis seem every bit as good. I've only been riding them for about 5 months so I can't speak to the durability yet, but they look good as of now. And the ride, at least for me, is better on the wider rims and the conti 25s.

[vqdriver]

I really didn't feel any difference when I pumped the 25 to 110psi as opposed to the 100psi I did with the 23mm
.

http://download.gamespotcdn.net/d4/user_images/1857/5cb5f2ba4a3e4cf0be11455mx5_2.gif

[carpediemracing]

^ the heck?

[rnhood]

Just curious if others have had any similar situations to this. I had always ridden 23c tires (typically Vredestein Fortezza Tricomps) on my old Open Pro rims. Then I got a set of HED Belgium C2s (wonderfully built up by echelon John) and immediately felt a comfort and handling difference with the exact same tire on the new wider rims. I wanted to try 25c tires and Tricomps were not available at the time so I tried a set of Vittoria Rubino Pro III and was surprised to find that I wasn't as impressed as I thought I was going to be. Everything I had heard about 25c tires was that they were going to be so great, but they are not any more comfortable than the 23 Tricomps and they do not corner nearly as well. It's like my turning radius increased going to the Vittorias and I feel much less secure cornering.
So I sit here wondering:
1) Is the Tricomp just simply a better tire (at cornering anyway) or
2) Maybe there is no advantage of the 25 tire once you have the 23 rim or
3) Maybe the 25 Tricomps (which are now available) would give me more of what I was expecting out of a 25 with the added cornering that I was used to before I switched to the Vittorias. And to be fair, the Vittorias do ride very nice and have been extremely puncture resistant. But they just don't handle as well.

Anyone have any similar experiences with wider rims plus wider tires? Or have any of you Tricomp groupies out there (and you know who you are, and I am one of them) tried the 25s vs the 23s.

Any input/experiences are welcome.
Thanks.

If you're not going to run 80# in the 25's, then my suggestion is to keep running 23's. The advantage of 25's is that you can run them at lower pressure - and that's where their generally superior ride quality comes from. I weigh 185 lbs and never pump my Conti 4000's in 25 above 80#: Never. And I rarely ever flat.

[phcollard]

... I really didn't feel any difference when I pumped the 25 to 110psi as opposed to the 100psi I did with the 23mm and my average speed remain the same.

You're doing it backwards. When going from 23 to 25 you should not increase the pressure, or even keep it the same but you should *lower* it!

[SteveV0983]

Based on some of these replies, maybe I should lower the 25 Rubinos a little more. I had un the 23 Tricomps at 96f/104r and now am running the 25 Rubinos at 92f/100r (Topeak pumps have 4# increments) and I weigh about 180. Sounds like most of you running 25s are even lower than this.
Thanks for the input. It sounds like I may have to break down and try the Contis sooner or later since everyone loves them so much. I had always been concerned about a recurring theme I keep seeing about sidewall blowouts and I didn't know how good they were in the rain.
But either way, it sounds like the consensus seems to be that the same tire on a 23 rim rides nicer in the 25 than the 23 assuming you lower the pressure accordingly. Next set will have to be either the 25 Tricomps or the 25 GP4000S.

[djg]

I replaced my rear tire of 23mm GP4000S on my Ksyrium as a result of cutting with another GP4000S in 25mm. I really didn't feel any difference when I pumped the 25 to 110psi as opposed to the 100psi I did with the 23mm and my average speed remain the same. There is, however, a slight improvement in comfort when I dropped to 100psi on the 25mm. This actually comes at a price of increase rolling reistance. There is a big descent on my regular route and I just let myself roll down the hill. The top speed with the 25mm was 1.5% shy comparing to that when I was on 23mm.

1.5% vs slightly better comfort. It comes down to choice.

Not to criticize the attempt to be systematic, but how many times did you do the roll down test? 10? 100? Any controls besides same guy, same bike, and same hill? Any slight variation in your position -- e.g., just how you are holding your head -- might easily explain your 1.5% delta. Any slight variation in your line, in the air, etc. (and, honestly, it seems unlikely that greater rolling resistance on the rear tire is at fault).

As you've increased the volume of air, you might try decreasing the pressure a little bit. Try 5 psi increments and see what you think.

[thwart]

There is a big descent on my regular route and I just let myself roll down the hill. The top speed with the 25mm was 1.5% shy comparing to that when I was on 23mm.

1.5% vs slightly better comfort. It comes down to choice.

Well, there's been some research on rolling resistance that goes directly contrary to the sort of intuitive thinking that a harder tire = less resistance.

For me, 150 lbs in season, 70-75 psi front, and 80-85 psi rear (for 25 mm tires on 23 mm rims).

Fewer flats than riding buddies who ride at higher pressures, and these wheels roll out just as fast as theirs do (realizing that wheel bearings, aerodynamics, and other things factor into roll out speed and distance also...).

[William]

Well, there's been some research on rolling resistance that goes directly contrary to the sort of intuitive thinking that a harder tire = less resistance.

For me, 150 lbs in season, 70-75 psi front, and 80-85 psi rear (for 25 mm tires on 23 mm rims).

Fewer flats than riding buddies who ride at higher pressures, and these wheels roll out just as fast as theirs do (realizing that wheel bearings, aerodynamics, and other things factor into roll out speed and distance also...).

Running 28's, I'll run faster and further than my riding partners bombing down hills. I carry more weight than them, but I also have a larger profile exposed to the wind. What does this mean? Not much. You'll find a number of threads archived here on this subject. I've raced on 23's, 25's, and 28's and honestly, there isn't much of a difference at all other than I got fewer flats the larger I went.

Riding at racing weight I was a ripped 245 - 250 and riding on 23's I was getting quite a few pinch flats. When I switched to 25's my riding partners and competitors weren't all of a sudden dropping me. I could hang where I could always hang, and drop them where I could always drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and fewer pinch flats. Then I switched to 28's for training and 25's for racing. On training rides I wasn't all of a sudden getting dropped because I switched, I was hanging where I could always hang, and dropping folks where I could usually drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and no more pinch flats. I even raced on 28's and I still was competitive, placed, and won road races and crits.

What does this mean? not much other than in my own experience, running a larger tire didn't slow me down, and gave me better reliability than running the standard 23c. But I'm also bigger than your average bear so your ymmv.







William

[echelon_john]

Clydesdales represent!

I've had exactly the same experience with larger tires, except for the 'racing' and 'winning' parts. :banana:


Running 28's, I'll run faster and further than my riding partners bombing down hills. I carry more weight than them, but I also have a larger profile exposed to the wind. What does this mean? Not much. You'll find a number of threads archived here on this subject. I've raced on 23's, 25's, and 28's and honestly, there isn't much of a difference at all other than I got fewer flats the larger I went.

Riding at racing weight I was a ripped 245 - 250 and riding on 23's I was getting quite a few pinch flats. When I switched to 25's my riding partners and competitors weren't all of a sudden dropping me. I could hang where I could always hang, and drop them where I could always drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and fewer pinch flats. Then I switched to 28's for training and 25's for racing. On training rides I wasn't all of a sudden getting dropped because I switched, I was hanging where I could always hang, and dropping folks where I could usually drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and no more pinch flats. I even raced on 28's and I still was competitive, placed, and won road races and crits.

What does this mean? not much other than in my own experience, running a larger tire didn't slow me down, and gave me better reliability than running the standard 23c. But I'm also bigger than your average bear so your ymmv.







William

[thwart]

I even raced on 28's and I still was competitive, placed, and won road races and crits.

But... they look like balloon tires... ;) :D

[William]

But... they look like balloon tires... ;) :D

When everyone is looking at your backside......who cares!!!;):D






William

[rjfr]

The Vredestein tri comp 23s on HED or Velocity A23 rim give a superb ride. Great tire with excellent longevity. I haven't tried a 25, but the 24 Vittoria Open Pave is incrementally better on these rims. Smoother ride with no degradation of longevity.

The best however, has been Grand Bois Cerf 28s (actual 29). The ride is so much smoother with no reduction in rolling resistance. The difference over chip seal is just amazing. I would use them exclusively, however, they are too tall for some bikes, so the Open Paves are my second choice.

[Black Dog]

25 tires on 23mm rims ride very nice. No different than 28s on 19mm rims etc... It all about the total volume of air in the tire. But it only works when you run them at lower pressures, like everyone here is saying. On rough surfaces (most roads) they are, in fact, faster than narrow tires at high pressure. This is not opinion it is supported by many a rolling resistance study and the results certainly fit with theory. On a smooth track like surface then high pressure and narrow are faster. Just physics.

Narrow tires were initially marketed as being faster because of less drag and well the rest is history (remember those super narrow Specialized Turbos that were anything but smooth). They have become so ubiquitous that most riders see a 25mm tire and think that it is too wide and must also be slow. They do not know why they think this, it is just not what they are used to seeing; in effect, it becomes counter intuitive. There are many misconceptions in this sport of ours and most of them are the result of some past 'creative' marketing. There is never a shortage of Kool-Aid to drink.

We should start a thread on the misconceptions in the sport that marketing BS has seeded.

[cachagua]

A thread wouldn't hold it. I think you'd need a whole 'nother Internet.

Could be interesting to begin a list, though. . .

[TPetsch]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this William. I'm 6'5" 220 so as a fellow heavyweight I'm picking up what you putting down here. What kind of PSI do you run on your 25's? I'm using Conti Chilli 4000's, 25's on DT swiss 585's and after thousands of miles I find them to be bullet proof and solid as a rock. I've put as much as 120 PSI in them an think the ride is great on my Legend, 50 mile rides are no issue, comfortable, but a lot can also be said for the Brooks Swift saddle too in the comfort dept.

...But now that everyone is talking 23mm rim widths I'm wondering if my 585's @ 19.6mm width are Old News? ...Or am I thinking too hard?

Thing about the 585's besides the extra weight is that they are never a glancing thought in my mind during a ride, they just do their thing solidly mile after mile, so another question is whether the HED C2 @ 23mm will hold up as well to my weight. Is it a trade off in rim solidity -for a 220 Lb guy- considering that each HED rim is 100 grams lighter than a 585. Will I suddenly feel a bit of flex in the HED that I don't feel on the 585 when cranking hard up an incline. Or will the HED with Conti 25's offer me the best of "all" worlds. Lighter weight, No flexing under my 220 pounds and the added benefit/comfort of 25's on 23mm rims?

At 220 I can't help but always wonder if the "Light Weight" gear is made for the 165 pound rider in mind?
Just some thoughts that I've been having lately, Thanks in advance, Thomas :)

. Running 28's, I'll run faster and further than my riding partners bombing down hills. I carry more weight than them, but I also have a larger profile exposed to the wind. What does this mean? Not much. You'll find a number of threads archived here on this subject. I've raced on 23's, 25's, and 28's and honestly, there isn't much of a difference at all other than I got fewer flats the larger I went.

Riding at racing weight I was a ripped 245 - 250 and riding on 23's I was getting quite a few pinch flats. When I switched to 25's my riding partners and competitors weren't all of a sudden dropping me. I could hang where I could always hang, and drop them where I could always drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and fewer pinch flats. Then I switched to 28's for training and 25's for racing. On training rides I wasn't all of a sudden getting dropped because I switched, I was hanging where I could always hang, and dropping folks where I could usually drop them. What I did notice was a smoother ride and no more pinch flats. I even raced on 28's and I still was competitive, placed, and won road races and crits.

What does this mean? not much other than in my own experience, running a larger tire didn't slow me down, and gave me better reliability than running the standard 23c. But I'm also bigger than your average bear so your ymmv.







William

[thwart]

25 tires on 23mm rims ride very nice. No different than 28s on 19mm rims etc... I'd agree.

Until you get to a corner.

[don compton]

The Vredestein tri comp 23s on HED or Velocity A23 rim give a superb ride. Great tire with excellent longevity. I haven't tried a 25, but the 24 Vittoria Open Pave is incrementally better on these rims. Smoother ride with no degradation of longevity.

The best however, has been Grand Bois Cerf 28s (actual 29). The ride is so much smoother with no reduction in rolling resistance. The difference over chip seal is just amazing. I would use them exclusively, however, they are too tall for some bikes, so the Open Paves are my second choice.
+1000 and these tires are not heavy.

[SteveV0983]

At 220 I can't help but always wonder if the "Light Weight" gear is made for the 165 pound rider in mind?
Just some thoughts that I've been having lately, Thanks in advance, Thomas :)

.

I'm sure many of the experienced wheel builders could answer better than I could, but I would assume that if a rim like a C2 is built up correctly with enough spokes, then your weight would not be a problem. I weigh 180-185 and originally tried a set of Ultegra WH-6700 wheels on my new build and hated them. I found them very twitchy and unstable to the point where I was getting upper back pain from trying to control the front end. And the back end bounced like a trampoline. Plus they were out of true every time I looked at them. By the way, they are 16f/20r in the spoke department. The C2s that I have are built up 28f/32r all 3x and they are fantastic. They are comfortable, stiff, have stayed true, and track perfectly without any of the squirrelly feeling I had with the Shimanos. My guess would be that there is no reason those rims could not give you a great ride.
By the way, I did experience the difference in the wider rim first hand with a good comparison. In the time period between returning the Shimanos and waiting for my C2s to arrive, I put my old Mavic Open Pro/Ultegra hub wheels back on (which I believe are 19mm) and rode for a few weeks like that. When the C2s showed up, I just swapped the cassette and tires and took off and the difference was not subtle. So this is the same bike, same tires, same roads, same everything except the rims and the difference was amazing. I think you'd love them.

[Oregonic]

I'm thinking of making the leap from 23's to 25's this summer as well. I have some of the new Pacenti SL23's on order, and I'll be lacing them up to some older DA 7800 hubs.

I'm always interested to see what pressure people are running on 23mm clinchers. I'm about 170, and I never run more than 90(ish)F and 100R - in 23mm Pro Race 3's, on 19mm Open Pro rims. I rarely have a flat (knock on wood). I'm going to experiment with those 23's on the new rims first, to see where they settle in, but I suspect I'll be able to drop about 5-10PSI. So I'm thinking I could go even lower with 25's.