Tubular Ramblings- Add to the Culture Here

[sspielman]

I noticed that the Forum is in need of an active tubular thread. I thought that it would be a good opportunity to ramble a bit on some general observations and everybody could add to the pot (again).....
I have used tubulars exclusively since I got my first good bike back in 1978. I watched my friends convert to clinchers for their "convenience", but I never saw the need. Back in those days there were a number of manufacturers making good tubulars...and a number of bad ones as well. Clement was the giant of the day. They had a HUGE range of tires in a range of quality levels. THe better tires were available in a dizzying array of widths, tread patterns and casing materials. For example, the widest tire was the "Campionato Del Mondo". They were somewhere in the 28-30 c range and had a ribbed tread....the racier tires were the Criterium series. The basic workhorse was the 22 c Criterium cotton. They were so ubiquitous as race tires that they became known as "red labels". They were also available in a silk version...the Criterium Seta...and with a light silk casing as the "Criterium Seta Extra....Additionally, there was a variant of the Criterium series that had a fine diamond tread and was known as the "Strada 66"...This tire was only available in cotton, as it was somewhat promoted as a "rain tire". It is rarely mentioned today that silk loses a higher percentage of its strength in the wet than does cotton, so people tried to reserve silk tires for dry conditions. It was worth the trouble, because nothing really compares to the ride of a silk tubular (especially the wider ones)...A pair of Criterium Seta Extras are as fast as any tires that you can ride. Of course, the other manufacturers had great tires as well. From Italy there was D'Allessandro. Their competitor to the Clement Criterium was the "Imperforabile". It was noteworthy for its tough fabric band under the tread that improved its puncture-proofness. These were great tires as well. Another large manufacturer was Wolber in France. Most of their tires we mid range, but the Champion de France was a very high quality exception. It was very similar to a Criterium. At the lower end of the range, Wolber made a brutish tire that was excellent fopr winter riding. It was about 400 grams, with a heavy file tread....almost like a dry cyclocross tire. This model was called the "Toureste Renforce" and was very useful. Yet another French maker was Dourdoigne...they made VERY high quality tires and were headed for a number of years by a certain Mr. Andre Dugast. Some other makers included Alecy from Portugal (!), Cadetti from Italy, Hutchinson from France, Barum from Czech. and Saavedra from Argentina(!)

[Andreu]

Barum made great Cyclocross tyres. Are they still manufacturing?
ahh the memories.
A

[sspielman]

I am not sure of the corporate wranglings, but some part of Barum was metamorphosed into TUFO. I don't know if it was just equipment, a re-naming or other.....

[saab2000]

A good tubular thread is never bad.

Here is my story.

My first good bike came with tubulars in 1984. The tires were Wolber and the rims were Mavic. But I did not have the money (or knowledge) to keep the good stuff going. So I got cheap tubulars and cheap tubulars are the worst. But I knew that good stuff existed. But in the subsequent years I raced on clinchers.

They were not as good then as now, but they weren't as bad as most people think either. I used Specialized Turbo S slicks and Mavic G-40 rims. They were alright.

In 1989 I splurged and got a set of Mavic hubs laced to Campagnolo Omega V-shaped tubulars. I had a CX for the front and a CG for the rear, as was customary at the time. They were great. The hubs were peerless and the rims were light. They were terrific racing wheels and race them I did.

But the cost of replacing good tubulars still kept me on clinchers for my daily riding. They don't flat less, but when they do it is simply a lot less painful.

During my many years in Switzerland I occasionally rode tubulars again as I did have more income. I rode a season on my Grandis with some Vittoria CXs from Italy. They were my favorite tubular.

Finally in 2001 I went with the newer hubs and went with 10-speed on one of my bikes. This is when I first started having trouble with broken spokes and the like. It was on clincher rims.

Then this year I had had enough, and bought a set of Nucleon tubular wheels from someone through the classifieds. I was not going to cheap out either and got some Veloflex Criteriums. They have been fabulous. They are every bit the equal of the old CX, and as near as I can tell, they may in fact be identical to the old CX.

I now own 2 sets of the Nucleon tubular wheels and a few extra tires. But I have been very lucky this year with flats (knock on wood) and have not had any problems. My Grandis is, and always has been, set up with tubulars, but I rode it so seldom that it didn't count. This year I glued on some of those glorious Veloflexes and rode it more. Good move.

But clinchers have a place in my world too. The bike I just sent out to Washington (Too Tall, we will need to ride soon) has clinchers, I have the Velocity rims with the OCR rear. I use Veloflex clinchers and while they are not quite as nice as the tubulars, they are still pretty acceptable and the ease of repair makes it just that much more worth it.

I have never had the pleasure of owning any silk tubulars. All I have ever had were the Veloflexes and Vittorias. I tried the Continental tubulars, but never really got to like them. They are very durable, but hold no other appeal to me.

I have seen the new tubulars from Deda and was impressed with how they felt in my hand. They seem soft and supple. They are not just re-labeled Veloflex. I don't know anything else about them, but I would be prepared to give them a try.

The Dugasts are undoubtedly very nice, but they are simply too expensive for me.

I have been back and forth between tubulars and clinchers. I see the plusses and negatives of both.

[weisan]

:D The one and only set of tubular wheels I have is the older Mavic Heliums with Conti Triathlons tubsX23mm put on em'. Okay, to be completely honest...I have yet to really catch on much love with that setup. I much prefer the ride when I swap it out with my regular clincher CaneCreek chrono wheelset with Conti Ultra3000X20mm tires. I have experimented with the tire pressures but still it's not getting my first vote, although I have not write off the benefits of tubs completely. Just that I feel like the current setup is not swaying me in any one particular direction in the tubs vs clincher argument.
Kinda like finding the perfect steel bike, I do believe in the many benefits and superiority in certain aspects that my friends here talked about regarding tubs...but yet I am not willing to invest too much time and money to validate that especially when I am quite happy with the clincher set. Like everything else, you don't know what you are missing until you have experienced it and you would never want to go back there again. I reckon that would be in my case.

Edit: I am not supposed to put in any more new post today be'cos it will screw up my post count and frustrate the kind efforts put in by my sweet pal BruceK in this thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=12487) :crap: ....so I am here to first thank Bruce-pal for his encouraging words...and secondly, to make sure the "BOSS" did not pay Bruce-pal to start monitoring how often I get on this forum. :D

Current Scoreboard (Top Ten Poster- "The Usual Suspects"):
BumbleBeeDave 4,304
Climb01742 4,083
Sandy 3,496
William 3,073
Too Tall 3,069
dirtdigger88 2,993
Kevin 2,657
Kevan 2,208
Smiley 2,100
.....
weisan is in the current distant 11th position.... 2,000 :p

[KevinK]

For training and road racing in the early 80's I used the Wolber Invulnerable. This was a mid-priced tire that had a very fine steel mesh below the rubber tread. It did a pretty good job of preventing punctures, although it wasn't fine enough to stop thorns. The Wolber Neo-Pro was another good mid range tire that had an exceptional ride quality for its price. I had a couple of aged sets of Clememt Criterium Setas that I reserved for courses that I knew were smooth and clean. I also used the Criterium Setas for riding at the Alpenrose Velodrome on my old Gitane track bike. I didn't own a a set of clincher wheels then, and even now most of my wheels are for sew-ups.

Kevin

[bostondrunk]

It still makes no sense to me why many people who drops 5 - 10k on a bike won't even try tubies. They'll buy carbon handlebars, carbon seatposts, etc., but won't try something that'll actually make a difference in the ride of the bike..
Its been beat to death.....but it ain't that hard to fold up two tubies under your saddle for training rides, and it is pretty damn easy to replace one on the road, easier than gluing a patch onto a tube, etc...
And no pinch flats! :beer:

[sspielman]

FWIW, I think that the Veloflex tires are the equal of any tires from the "good old days". I really do wish that they would offer seta versions of their range. Another observation about the compapanies of old...It has always been the kiss of death for a tubular manufacturer to be acquired by a large tire company. They always say that they want to keep them "exactly as they are" and then go about changing everything......and eventually the tubular company doesn't meet some profit projections... Some examples are:Wolber was acquired by Michelin; the tire production was closed and the rim division went to Mavic. Clement was owned by Pirelli; production halted and the name has been intermittently prostituted about. Vittoria was acquired by Lion tyre and production was moved to the Far East....

[Roy E. Munson]

easier than gluing a patch onto a tube

I doubt too many people patch tubes on the side of a road. And if you can tear a tubular off as easily and quickly as you say, I would guess it wasn't glued very well.

[Too Tall]

Sspielman, and I'm wondering how in the heck we never crossed paths???? Great story...more to come right?

Saab - Old man, I refuse to let you ride clinchers! I've got 4 sets of race wheels and a training set...surely we can fit you up for a "test ride"? Nimbles with Veloflex mmmmmm tubulars. Yeah, I've got the bug for long fine rides. Get on the bannana and call the world is our oyster.

My gosh. I began riding "nice bikes" when my brother flaked out and left for a NM commune in the late 60s leaving behind a lovely Gitane. It had the worst possible tubulars. I soon graduated to a fine Bottechia fitted with Campag NR, Fiamme rims and Clements. Life was good and I can hardly remember flats...maybe folks didn't throw beer bottles than? What I remember most about the tubulars is how little glue I used as I was not racing and clueless to boot. The next bike was my custom Hetchins...remember that one Sspielman ;) He wore nice tubies all the time and I never had to worry about flatting because all my pals rode tubies too. If someone popped more than one tyre we loan them a spare and return it the next time. A local road had a reputation for popping tires and you could see old tubulars high in some of the trees where p'd off riders would fling them in frustration...kinda like tubular ghosts hehe.

[bostondrunk]

easier than gluing a patch onto a tube

I doubt too many people patch tubes on the side of a road. And if you can tear a tubular off as easily and quickly as you say, I would guess it wasn't glued very well.


True, I don't use the 'seven layers of glue' method. :D

[coylifut]

For example, the widest tire was the "Campionato Del Mondo". They were somewhere in the 28-30 c range and had a ribbed tread....

I had those. Do you remember the sound the ribbed tread made as you rolled down the road? They were really tuff. I never punctured mine and rode em till the cords showed through. Those were the days.

In about 1984 a friend an I ran across a Schwin shop that had a back room with a bunch of Campy Gruppos and a pile of Clement tires. The new owner had no interest in them so we scrounged up the money and bought all of it. We rode those tires for years. Those were the days.

[Cadence230]

In about 1984 a friend an I ran across a Schwin shop that had a back room with a bunch of Campy Gruppos and a pile of Clement tires. The new owner had no interest in them so we scrounged up the money and bought all of it. We rode those tires for years. Those were the days.
Nice :) .

[MartyE]

I still contend that the Clement Paris-Roubaix was one of the
sweetest all round tubulars made.
I have one old pair left, minus base tape that I need to send
off to have repaired, just not sure which bike I'm gonna
mount them up on.

Marty

[sspielman]

In today's clincher-dominated world, we are accustomed to thinking of tires as an industrial product....molded and produced in a smokestack style factory. This is not the case with tubulars. A handmade tubular is much more of a craftsman-style object. We often say that "a good tubular is really good but a bad tubular is really bad". When we say this what we mean is that the handmade tires are good and vulcanised tires are not as good. With respect to tubulars, what handmade means is "cold processed". What this means is that the treadband is glued onto the casing using adhesives that cure at room temperature. Because of that, the tread is not subjected to high temperatures which rob the rubber of much of its natural suppleness and cause premature wear. Using the cold process, the tread can also be attached to the casing while partially inflated which allows it to follow the contour. In a vulcanised tire, the tread is attached under tremendous heat and pressure...it is "ironed on" so to speak. When a vulcanised tire is inflated, the center of the tread...where the rubber meets the road....is stretched and stressed. In addition to the tread attachment method, the low production of handmaking tires lends itself to the selection of superior fabrics for casing construction as well as construction methods that allow for more precise construction...that is, smoother seams and placing the threads of the folded over fabric at the correct angle. All of these factors add up to what we notice as the great "feel" of a good tubular. You can tell a handmade tubular from a vulcanised one very quickly when they are deflated. A vulcanised one collapses in a flat ribbon, while a handmade one maintains its rounder shape.

[wasfast]

Clement was the giant of the day.

They were also available in a silk version...the Criterium Seta...and with a light silk casing as the "Criterium Seta Extra

...A pair of Criterium Seta Extras are as fast as any tires that you can ride. Of course, the other manufacturers had great tires as well. From Italy there was D'Allessandro.

I remember a 230 gram and 195 gram seta extra. They were great tires although the 195 was a bit light even for TT's. I was truly shocked when I started riding a couple years ago that Clement was all but gone as a tire manufacturer. Very sad.

I rode the track in the 70's and use Clement #3 silks for important races. The 95 gram #1's were scary light. Great memories. I had a Raleigh Team Pro track bike, candy red with white panels and all Campy Record Pista on it. Paid $400 for it used.....wish I still had it.

[PeterW]

A local road had a reputation for popping tires and you could see old tubulars high in some of the trees where p'd off riders would fling them in frustration...kinda like tubular ghosts hehe.[/QUOTE]

Too Tall,

I remember those trees from the early 80s. Somewhere in Potomac. Near Seven Locks? On the Seneca loop? Am I thinking about the same place?

Anyway, I was 14 or so, on one of my first rides with the big kids. I was on my third-hand Benotto (broken and repaired at Proteus). I'll never forget coming up to a stoplight and the whole group leaned in on me. No one unclipped. Green light, and they all sprinted after a garbage truck. Then, the ghostly trees! What a ride!

[Too Tall]

! DOH ! Pretty wierd isn't it? There was another "ghost tree" area along New Hampshire Ave. headed out twords Brookville.

Where and how do you store spare tubulars? My best spare goes in a seat pack and the backup plan is rolled and toe strapped to the seat stay above the r.brake. I miss the old weinnman(?) tubular carrier that bolted to the rails of your saddle...that's class.

[KevinK]

I had a Raleigh Team Pro track bike, candy red with white panels and all Campy Record Pista on it. Paid $400 for it used.....wish I still had it.

I sold my Raleigh Pro Track Bike, red w/ white panels and Campy equiped while I worked at Second Nature Bikes in Eugene. Was it you who bought it? I am still kicking myself for selling it!

Kevin

[csm]

remember the old panaracer 270k? or something like that? kevlar belted and they weighed 200, 240 or 270 g depending on the tire? rode like tanks. you could run them 'til the belts showed.
I think I MIGHT go back to tubulars next season.

[MRB]

Hey.... come to think of it, I have some (8 to 10) Vittoria CX and CG, and a few Clement Crit. in a box in the basement. Do you suppose they are still any good?

I want to ride tubulars again in the near future. I have been asking around, and it looks like the Hutchinson Carbon Comp is a good fairly wide tubular. I guess the old Panaracer Tourguard has been recently reintroduced as a Panaracer Practice.
Any experience with these anyone?

- M

[toaster]

I'm new to tubulars but I heard of Clements. I looked around for a tubular cyclocross tire and found Clement Elite Cross in blue color at Nashbar and purchased these online. I haven't got 'em yet but I anticipate they will be of a good quality. They are 30mm.

I figure I'll move up a bit in the results, right????

[KevinK]

! Where and how do you store spare tubulars? My best spare goes in a seat pack and the backup plan is rolled and toe strapped to the seat stay above the r.brake. I miss the old weinnman(?) tubular carrier that bolted to the rails of your saddle...that's class.

The FedEx small Pak is the PERFECT size for carrying a spare sewup folded in quarters and straped under the seat. It is made of Tyvek and is real tough and waterproof. I do it so the orange and purple FedEx logo is facing out and strap it on with a toestrap. Looks slick and matches my orange/purple Classique Ti!

Kevin

[Too Tall]

Good idea Kev.
I glued up a set of those Hutchinson for a teammate this season and did not love them. Construction was very good but not supple at all...I'm betting they ride like crap.

[zap]

! DOH ! Pretty wierd isn't it? There was another "ghost tree" area along New Hampshire Ave. headed out twords Brookville.

Where and how do you store spare tubulars? My best spare goes in a seat pack and the backup plan is rolled and toe strapped to the seat stay above the r.brake. I miss the old weinnman(?) tubular carrier that bolted to the rails of your saddle...that's class.

Back pocket next to the tool kit with sealent. Nice tight roll.

Seat bags and/or tubular carriers are not acceptable for Zap prepared bikes.

[wasfast]

I sold my Raleigh Pro Track Bike, red w/ white panels and Campy equiped while I worked at Second Nature Bikes in Eugene. Was it you who bought it? I am still kicking myself for selling it!

Kevin

I bought it from Bill Stein who worked at Action Sports in Beaverton in late 1976. I later sold it in 1979 through Jerry Baker of Baker's Bikes in Seattle.

So, to answer your question, I don't think it's the same bike. Sure pretty though.

[MartyE]

A couple of years ago someone (who's name slips) was
selling off old stock from one of the midwest teams (Mike Fatka?).
I picked up 3 pairs of undrilled tubular rims that I use to store
tires. mount them (no glue), air them up a little bit and
hang them in a closet.
When I'm going to mount a pair for use I'll pump them up to 8 or 9 bar
and let them stretch out for a day or two.

marty