Point toes down while out of the saddle?

[MattTuck]

Been watching this guy on youtube and came across this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_65831anz4) where he talks about some tips for climbing.

One of his comments is to keep the toes pointed down while out of the saddle. You can fastforward to the 2 minute mark if you want, he starts talking about the toe pointing at about 2:20.

Any thoughts on this?

[blessthismess]

I have never heard of this i regards to climbing. Makes sense though.
When I think of pointed toe technique it makes me think of Jaques Anquetil.
Theres a video about him that i feel could have been done better (he had a very interesting life)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3sOezcnHoU

but at around 7:50 they discuss his riding style which includes "strange pointed toes" If Jaques did it its gotta work:p

[thirdgenbird]

I climb toe down and over the front of the bike. I can't tell you it is faster, but it feels right to me.

[Jaq]

Not sure I agree with his tips; I'll have to watch it again.

At one point, he seems to contradict the old adage: attack the bottom. And he assumes that you're just going to pop out of the saddle. I find I do better attacking the bottom of the hill and staying in the saddle for the climb, using as complete pedal strokes as I can. But my build (shorter/heavier) is better suited to that.

And to be honest, at around 3:16 or so, he's spinning the pedals and saying "now I'm flat footed.... now I'm pointing" and I can't see a difference in his foot position; it looks identical.

But I'll try anything once, twice if it's free.

[TheWolfsMouth]

I've always been told to stay flat, but it sort of makes natural sense. If your over the bars climbing I feel that your body would want to point your toes. Like if you were running and starting a sprint when you leave and your torso and head are out first, your toes become pointed to balance.....or something like that.

[MattTuck]

Yeah, the biggest argument against keeping your feet flat (and thus pointing them down) is if your whole ankle collapses/pivots at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I can see this requiring extra energy to then pick it up on the backside of the stroke. If you pedal with a flat foot that stays rigid at the bottom of the pedal stroke, it doesn't make as much sense to me.

Of course, you could just move your cleat backwards...

[FlashUNC]

So the tips seem to be take advantage of momentum, and pedal hard.

Rocket science, I tell ya.

[cnighbor1]

while out of the saddle I drop my heels to stretch by legs. after an bicycle crash I stayed in the saddle a lot. I keep getting slower climbing. I went to my sports therapist and he got my legs stretched out and to keep them thay way I stretch them every day. Plus while riding I get off saddle a lot more to drop my heels to get legs lose
Points toes down period. if you look at a lot of riders they oint toes down all the time.
Charles

[Z3c]

As with anything like this, it is right for some, not for all. Do what feels natural. Next time you watch a race note the many varied styles; heals up/down/flat, fast/slow cadence; they are all pros doing what works for them.

Universal "advice" like this is a peeve of mine if you can't tell..

[cachagua]

Why don't you just wear high heels?

[Bob Ross]

I have never heard a good argument for pedaling toe-down.

EVER.




Now, I'll happily go watch the video, but everything I've seen, read, and tried empirically suggests that it's not an efficient technique. Happy to be proven wrong, but jeebus there's an awful lot of contrary info to overcome.

[cfox]

Contador climbs toes down. Just do what he does, he seems to climb ok

[spaced_ghost]

almost expected this thread to be NSFW with that title...

[FlashUNC]

I have never heard a good argument for pedaling toe-down.

EVER.




Now, I'll happily go watch the video, but everything I've seen, read, and tried empirically suggests that it's not an efficient technique. Happy to be proven wrong, but jeebus there's an awful lot of contrary info to overcome.

Anquetil did alright.

[thirdgenbird]

Gilbert also rides toe down:

http://youtu.be/azgKCHhcsBc

Very noticeable at 2:08 and other quick clips when out of the saddle.

[Grant McLean]

as with anything like this, it is right for some, not for all. Do what feels natural....

Universal "advice" like this is a peeve of mine if you can't tell..

+1000

[David Kirk]

I watched the clip and frankly didn't understand his reasoning behind why one would point the toes down while climbing out of the saddle. That's not to say I think it's a bad idea but I just didn't get what he was saying.

When I climb standing I tend to point the toe some and reach down to the bottom of the stroke. The reason being that if the foot is flat is it weighted and placing weight on the pedal at the bottom of the stroke is a waste of energy.

If the rider keeps his hips (center of mass) a bit higher he can reach down with a pointedish toe and scoop across the bottom of the stroke. This helps keep the pedal speed high without a dead spot at the bottom of the stroke and makes is so the rider does not have to lift his mass up again (never lowered it onto a flat foot) in order the place the weight on the foot that is about to head down and generate power.

If you watch the guys who best 'dance on the pedals' you'll see that many (most?) reach some at the bottom of the stroke and scoop the pedal back with the toes. It's a light and quick motion with little force involved. The force will come with the pedal is at the 2 o'clock position and max out at the 3 o'clock position and taper off by 6 o'clock. This way they can apply force when it's most effective and stay light and high until the next downstroke.

I don't know that I explained it any better than the guy in the video did but I said something different.

dave

[hainy]

different strokes for different fokes

we all at the end of the day go back to what we do naturally

don't try to mimic someone else

[tiretrax]

It is the way I find myself naturally, especially when I get out of the saddle. And I try to attack the bottom and carry the momentum as far as I can get my fat ass up the hill.

I thought Anquetil was famous for lifting his heel on the upstroke but having it slightly negative on the downstroke, n'est pas?

[rustylion]

I think it's a very individual decision depending on lots of factors unique to the rider. You just have to find your position over time, one that feels natural.

As a big guy, I can climb better out of the saddle than in. I am able to use my weight on the downstroke at lower rpms and higher power. When watching me climb, no one ever confused me with a dancer on pedals (aka Contador).

But as I think of my foot position, it is fairly flat, definitely not pointed. Next time I am climbing, I will see if I "scoop" at the bottom of the strokes Dave described - his description made sense to me and felt vaguely familiar in my mind. But basically, my foot position feels the same to me (I think) as when I used to squat in the weight room. No squatter worth their salt ever squatted on his toes; an optimal powerlifting squat position is only slightly lifted at the heel so almost flat.

Biking is not squatting and my style is probably my style only...so just my two cents worth.

[Ti Designs]

we all at the end of the day go back to what we do naturally


I'm trying to think of what it is that I do naturally - pretty much nothing. I spent the first few years of my life learning how to walk, so I can't say that came naturally to me. The problem with learning how to walk when you're that young is that you don't really understand the learning process. I have the advantage of having a back injury that left me unable to walk for months, and then I tried to walk - it's natural right? If the muscles work I should be able to just stand up and walk... It doesn't work that way. If you think you were born with skills, pick up a violin and start playing. If you have a natural talent for it, you'll make music. I'd be willing to bet that 100% of people who just try to play the first time they pick up a violin just make noise. By comparison to learning how to play Mary had a little lamb, walking is far more complex.

Most people think they know how to ride a bike. There is a theory of the four stages of learning - you can look it up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

Most people never get beyond the first stage, because Unconscious incompetence is a comfortable place to live. The foot goes on the pedal, the crank controls movement, it looks like everybody pedals the same way - it must be natural! Ignorance may be bliss, but being fast on the bike is fun, which means getting past what you think is natural.

For those looking for a good argument on why going toes down is a bad idea, it's called reciprocal inhibition - the body doesn't allow opposing muscle groups to fire at the same time. The body is a series of opposing muscle groups, but it's not a balanced system. Take for example the glutes and hip flexors, both the femur at the hip, but the glutes fight gravity all day, the hip flexors lift the foot. If firing one smaller muscle group removes a much larger muscle group from the effort, it's not efficient or effective. The examples people give of good riders who seem to ride that way aren't valid. Tight hamstrings or a forward position will make a rider look like their riding toes down, but it doesn't mean there are muscles active to make that happen. As for riders at a time before good shoes and pedals, it's not the same.

The video that started this thread shows what's wrong with education on the internet. Anyone can be an expert, there's no burden of proof here. Does what he's teaching work? You know what they say about those who can't do...

[nathanong87]

pointing toes down looks weird but gilbert and frank schleck come to mind. watch them ride and they pedal the same way.

i actually have no idea why this is, but im a pretty firm believer that your body knows what it wants, and everyone is different.

froome drops his heels like crazy in the saddle, but he's still doing fine.