Hushovd angry at Armstrong for doping

[Tony T]

Hushovd angry at Armstrong for doping (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hushovd-angry-at-armstrong-for-doping)

“I am very pissed at Armstrong and others who have played us for fools,” he told nrk.no. “I have cried going over the mountains because it hurt so much,” he said.

When asked if he had ever doped, the Norwegian replied, “The only thing I can say is that I know that I'm sitting here with a clear conscience. Meanwhile, people who have doped said the same thing before, but in my head, and here I have it safe and fine,” pointing to his heart.

[Rueda Tropical]

Hushovd angry at Armstrong for doping (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hushovd-angry-at-armstrong-for-doping)

““The only thing I can say is that I know that I'm sitting here with a clear conscience.

Actually what you could say is: No I have not doped. Providing that you actually hadn't... you know... never doped.

How many more will express shock that Armstrong was doing what they to some degree or other were doing themselves? The UCI and it's system of, do it but don't get caught, has turned the sport into a bad cartoon.

[MattTuck]

dude, that guy could very well be running with some sort of high octane blood that they injected after he almost bled out thanks to that PMC paper hand.

If he ever does test positive, he can blame it on some tainted blood.

[robin3mj]

Also- super pissed at his parents for perpetuating those Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and Tooth Fairy myths for so many years.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I'd pay to see LA try to talk sh&t to Thor, like he did Tyler. He'd have his a$s handed to him before he knew what hit him. LA needs to disappear, like aliens abducted him.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'd pay to see LA try to talk sh&t to Thor, like he did Tyler. He'd have his a$s handed to him before he knew what hit him. LA needs to disappear, like aliens abducted him.

I'd pay to see it, too!

BBD

[Grant McLean]

Actually what you could say is: No I have not doped. Providing that you actually hadn't... you know... never doped.

I think the point he was trying to make by saying what he did, was that
every doper in the history of the sport has said they didn't dope, so what's
the point of saying the same thing? He admittedly struggles with the point
of defending ones self in an environment of suspicion and lack of trust.

At this point, people following the sport will believe what they want.
There isn't anything someone can say that will ensure the truth.
Some people have long since burned that credibility bridge for everyone.

G

[earlfoss]

It's a strange thing for him to say. I figured that he got his first win in a long time under his belt and now he's relevant enough to ask about the doping thing, and that's his by the book answer.

He had to know Lance was juiced up the whole time, and at least post comeback they were chumming around Spain in the preseason.

[PQJ]

Et tu, Thor?

[Black Dog]

Comments along the lines of "I have a clear conscience" are a bit vague and elusive. Why not throw in a "I did not dope" or they even more fun: "I am not doping". Want to avoid being painted by the same brush then come out and make a clear and unequivocal statement.

[luno]

so, he's pretty much saying that he doped but he has a clear conscience about it.

[nicrump]

but he never answered the effing question. ones conscience is all relative. thor just dropped many rungs on the ladder.

[uncrx2003]

I really don't understand why so many people are upset about doping in cycling. It's an entertainment sport. Unlike other sport where doping (steroids) could results in significant injury to other people, cycling is a not contact sport. I would let them all dope.

[esldude]

I really don't understand why so many people are upset about doping in cycling. It's an entertainment sport. Unlike other sport where doping (steroids) could results in significant injury to other people, cycling is a not contact sport. I would let them all dope.

I somewhat agree. I would change the UCI restrictions on doping and bikes. A bike is anything with two wheels inline, and powered only by humans. Otherwise, sky is the limit, be innovative, be inventive, dope and otherwise soup up the human engine and lets see what can be done. What could an intelligently doped and talented human on a recumbent with aero fairing accomplish? I would find it far more interesting to find out than what has been going on so far.

[maunahaole]

I'd pay to see LA try to talk sh&t to Thor, like he did Tyler. He'd have his a$s handed to him before he knew what hit him. LA needs to disappear, like aliens abducted him.

Stranger things than that have been known to happen in Texas.

[victoryfactory]

The answer to unlocking the doping issue in cycling is right there in the OP:

“I have cried going over the mountains because it hurt so much,” he said.

The very structure and schedule of pro racing demands doping.
Change the distances, change the rules, shorter stages, more days off,
bigger teams.

Create space for individual riders to focus on a reasonable schedule.
The demands of the racing season, driven by sponsors and
money and "tradition" force people to dope. Once a few have success
doing that, others get with the program and here we are. You could almost
guess what was going through Floyd's mind that day in the TDF when
he chose to over dope. It was his only chance ( from his pov)


It's the very structure of the sport that needs adjustment and we will
see riders who can do a reasonable schedule without dope.

It will take some time but if you set up a new field for these athletes to
compete on they may thrive without dope.

Just look at the young phenoms that come up. In the beginning, they
shine. They are strong and talented. They give everyone a thrill. They
are the next Eddy. Then their race schedule increases and the results
go down as the pressure rises and ..... well you know the rest.

How many marathons does a world class runner do a year?
A pro cyclist is expected to do that every day!

Assasins!

VF

[jpw]

This is the classic non-denial denial technique. Does he realize this?

Is it my imagination, or is Cancellara deliberately keeping a low profile at the moment by hanging off the back of the GC results?

Boonen seems to have been darn unlucky with his health recently?

What's going on?

[victoryfactory]

This is the classic non-denial denial technique. Does he realize this?

Is it my imagination, or is Cancellara deliberately keeping a low profile at the moment by hanging off the back of the GC results?

Boonen seems to have been darn unlucky with his health recently?

What's going on?


What's going on is that every rider is dealing with how they are going to exist
in a new non doped era of cycling. First they have to fill in a plausible back story (Excuse) for the past and then try to move on.

If there was a strong, respected, intelligent and innovative international ruling body,
they could jump on this right now and fix cycling for the future.

But no, they spend their time covering their asses and ignoring the possibilities.
1 Forgiveness of past doping
2 zero tolerance going foward
3 restructuring of race lengths and schedules

Don't throw the riders out with the bath water. Don't continue the stupid
pointless witch hunt. Start fresh!

VF

[merlincustom1]

The answer to unlocking the doping issue in cycling is right there in the OP:

“I have cried going over the mountains because it hurt so much,” he said.

The very structure and schedule of pro racing demands doping.
Change the distances, change the rules, shorter stages, more days off,
bigger teams.

Create space for individual riders to focus on a reasonable schedule.
The demands of the racing season, driven by sponsors and
money and "tradition" force people to dope. Once a few have success
doing that, others get with the program and here we are. You could almost
guess what was going through Floyd's mind that day in the TDF when
he chose to over dope. It was his only chance ( from his pov)


It's the very structure of the sport that needs adjustment and we will
see riders who can do a reasonable schedule without dope.

It will take some time but if you set up a new field for these athletes to
compete on they may thrive without dope.

Just look at the young phenoms that come up. In the beginning, they
shine. They are strong and talented. They give everyone a thrill. They
are the next Eddy. Then their race schedule increases and the results
go down as the pressure rises and ..... well you know the rest.

How many marathons does a world class runner do a year?
A pro cyclist is expected to do that every day!

Assasins!

VF

Implementing these changes will do very little I fear, because there will still be the need to win, and some people will always cheat to win. I think an elite marathoner tears his body up more in a race than a cyclist does in a stage or one day event.

[spierfalls]

The problem with letting everyone dope for "entertainment purposes" is the fact that cycling is not like other mainstream sports. I might toe the line with the best cyclists in the world but never go to bat with the Yankees. There are so many pro amateur cyclists out there trying to make it while working part time jobs and struggling with little or no money from cycling. Or take a young guy loaded with talent that skips college to ride his bike. Should he have to worry that everyone he's racing against is doped to the gills. This is complicated.

[darylb]

Implementing these changes will do very little I fear, because there will still be the need to win, and some people will always cheat to win. I think an elite marathoner tears his body up more in a race than a cyclist does in a stage or one day event.



I agree to an extent that people will always look for the edge. It has happened in all sports for a hundred years. But if they really want to try to clean it up in cycling, they really would need to consider changing the format.

Let's say they were somehow able to successfully eliminate doping. Not likely but let's talk hypothetically. And let's say the racing schedule and courses stay the same. By the time they get to the grand tours, including the TDF, it would look like a group ride. Boring race doesnt get the same ratings.

With some smart changes as mentioned above, I think it is possible to clean it up and have exciting racing. What's really going to happen is they are going to keep going after people who are already gone and hope the current riders get better at cheating.

[oldpotatoe]

Comments along the lines of "I have a clear conscience" are a bit vague and elusive. Why not throw in a "I did not dope" or they even more fun: "I am not doping". Want to avoid being painted by the same brush then come out and make a clear and unequivocal statement.

Standard answer to doping, first heard right after they made Uppers and the such illegal..what maybe 50 years ago?

These guys all have doctors(still do), they know what's legal, illegal and what level of what crap they can have in a test and still be legal. They will continue to dance in the 'gray' area of doping.

[saab2000]

The problem with letting everyone dope for "entertainment purposes" is the fact that cycling is not like other mainstream sports. I might toe the line with the best cyclists in the world but never go to bat with the Yankees. There are so many pro amateur cyclists out there trying to make it while working part time jobs and struggling with little or no money from cycling. Or take a young guy loaded with talent that skips college to ride his bike. Should he have to worry that everyone he's racing against is doped to the gills. This is complicated.

This is not complicated. Participating in sports, especially at the pro level, is a privilege and not an economic obligation. Of course, I don't argue with the guys who make more money balling or riding than they could doing other kinds of work. But there is a clear delineation between right and wrong. We know the rules and choose to participate or not.

If you play in the game you play by the rules or risk banishment. Pete Rose and Lance Armstrong know this all too well and for different sins. But both knew what they were doing was wrong.

[darylb]

This is not complicated. Participating in sports, especially at the pro level, is a privilege and not an economic obligation. Of course, I don't argue with the guys who make more money balling or riding than they could doing other kinds of work. But there is a clear delineation between right and wrong. We know the rules and choose to participate or not.

If you play in the game you play by the rules or risk banishment. Pete Rose and Lance Armstrong know this all too well and for different sins. But both knew what they were doing was wrong.



I think it is far more complicated than many want to believe. At that level, there are many obligations to many entities and simply viewing it as a privilege is not as easy as it may seem. Team, sponsors, potential sponsors, media etc. all have a heavy interest in what these guys do. I'm not saying it is right to dope but I am saying the right/wrong line is far blurrier at that level than it is from here. It is indeed all about the money but not necessarily the money the athlete makes. Maybe the athlete isnt the true villain.

[cmg]

Armstrong had a "clear conscience". How many other sports have the added thrill of watching competition under more pressure than just the competition itself? Hushovd is mad that the talk is about doping instead of the competition.

[saab2000]

I think it is far more complicated than many want to believe. At that level, there are many obligations to many entities and simply viewing it as a privilege is not as easy as it may seem. Team, sponsors, potential sponsors, media etc. all have a heavy interest in what these guys do. I'm not saying it is right to dope but I am saying the right/wrong line is far blurrier at that level than it is from here. It is indeed all about the money but not necessarily the money the athlete makes. Maybe the athlete isnt the true villain.

The athlete is not the true villain here. The fans are. We want the show, the spectacle. But the athletes are not without culpability. They know the choices and make the choices and have to accept the consequences. I don't buy that it's more complicated. We all live in our own worlds and have to make choices, whether we are lawyers or business owners or bankers or whatever it is we do. I do in my profession too and we have clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not.

The riders can choose to get out if they don't like the choices they face in the world of cycling. And I don't mean that with any cynicism at all or antipathy towards the riders. But there have been some who chose to not partake in the circus.

AFAIR, a famous rider from the late 80's and early 90's, Edwig Van Hooydonck, did essentially this. über talented and he won the Ronde van Vlaanderen twice. This is the biggest race for a Belgian pro cyclist. He quit a couple years later because he couldn't compete cleanly on the same playing field and he said as much.

Riders are not indentured servants forced to do what the evil directors make them do. I will never buy that in today's world it's the choice between cycling glory or the dole or worse, the mattress factory. I've lived in Europe and spent a lot of time watching the world of cycling pretty closely. The fact is that only a very small percentage of riders make more money cycling than they would in the normal world of work. The average pack fodder rider does not. Never did either. People race bikes because they love the sport and want to ride in the biggest races and only a select few really make good money at it. Maybe the top couple hundred riders in the world. Greg Lemond ushered in the era of the big contract in about 1990. Prior to that things may well have been different.

What the economics of cycling were in past generations is not what I'm talking about. But in modern cycling (90s and forward) the idea that riders had no choice is simply a romanticization of the issue.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[darylb]

The athlete is not the true villain here. The fans are. We want the show, the spectacle. But the athlete's are not without culpability. They know the choices and make the choices and have to accept the consequences. I don't buy that it's more complicated. We all live in our own worlds and have to make choices, whether we are lawyers or business owners or bankers or whatever it is we do. I do in my profession too and we have clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not.

What the economics of cycling were in past generations is not what I'm talking about. But in modern cycling (90s and forward) the idea that riders had no choice is simply a romanticization of the issue.




I agree with the first paragraph almost completely. But by more complicated I guess I mean it is impossible for us to put our minds in their places. It is a lot easier to rationalize a choice when that thing that you have wanted your entire life is the reward. I spent some time in professional sports and know the choices. This is why I sit at a desk and am not on the field.

But for the second paragraph, the clarification in my mind is they have a choice if they want to be a pro cyclist but if they want to be at the top, they dont, or at least didnt, have a choice. Same with most sports. The NFL still claims they done have steroids or growth hormones in the sport. Every single one of us know it isnt true. But if you want to be a lineman, or a linebacker, or most any position any more, you take it or you dont play. And that starts in college.

[jpw]

there's a lot of potential for blackmail inside the pro peloton.

[saab2000]

And that starts in college.

College? I've heard stories of high school being rife with bad news stuff...... It's not pretty, that's for sure, regardless of the sport.

[victoryfactory]

The athlete is not the true villain here. The fans are. We want the show, the spectacle. But the athletes are not without culpability. They know the choices and make the choices and have to accept the consequences. I don't buy that it's more complicated. We all live in our own worlds and have to make choices, whether we are lawyers or business owners or bankers or whatever it is we do. I do in my profession too and we have clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not

Here's the difference: In your profession, do you lose your job for
following the rules? That's what happened to LA's team mates who
wouldn't follow the program, apparently.
And don't blame the fans either, they are only guilty of loving the sport.
The real culprits IMO are the governing organizations and teams who looked the other way and even took bribes while the cyclists took drugs.
They let pro cycling rot from the inside and now they are making excuses.
They took the money. They looked the other way. They let it happen.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

VF

[Jaq]

College? I've heard stories of high school being rife with bad news stuff...... It's not pretty, that's for sure, regardless of the sport.

When I was in high school in the early '80s, my best friend was a phenomenal track athlete. And he was using EPO. I can't remember how, but I do remember him complaining of odd side effects, like seriously flaky skin. According to him (at the time), EPO was rife amongst the top guys at all the schools in our league.

As for Hushvod, his confession seems "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." The thread title should be changed to a more Onion-esque "Hushvod Angry That No One Asked Him What He Thought About Lance Before Now."

[Fiertetimestwo]

Jaq,

My understanding is that EPO wasn't around in the early 80's- I don't think it was even invented until 85 or so, and likely wouldn't have been available even on the black market until the mid to late 80's.

Steroids? Testosterone? Amphetamines?

[Jaq]

Jaq,

My understanding is that EPO wasn't around in the early 80's- I don't think it was even invented until 85 or so, and likely wouldn't have been available even on the black market until the mid to late 80's.

Steroids? Testosterone? Amphetamines?

Reading the Wiki article about it, various forms seem to have been in the lab pipelines in mid-to-late '70s, so yeah, I don't see how it could have been EPO, but oddly, the memory is pretty strong, especially his use of the term "EPO." But it he might have just been using steroids and talking about EPO - we grew up in an area that was pretty heavily invested in bio-tech, so the term may have been on the wind as something to look forward to. That said, and looking at the wiki article on Epoetin Alfa, it does mention one of the side effects as being skin rash, and he definitely had that.

That being said, I've always used it as an example of even high-schoolers willing to dope. There were a couple guys on the football team who were using steroids to bulk up. What stunned me most was the collusion of these guys' parents. One guy's dad was that stereotypical "hard-man," always at all the games, screaming like one of the coaches (who put up with him for some reason). In fairness, I don't think any of us knew what the effects were going to be back then (or maybe they did), so the dads saw it as a harmless way to improve their kids' chances of playing college ball - which none of them did, as far as I know.

[oldpotatoe]

When I was in high school in the early '80s, my best friend was a phenomenal track athlete. And he was using EPO. I can't remember how, but I do remember him complaining of odd side effects, like seriously flaky skin. According to him (at the time), EPO was rife amongst the top guys at all the schools in our league.

As for Hushvod, his confession seems "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." The thread title should be changed to a more Onion-esque "Hushvod Angry That No One Asked Him What He Thought About Lance Before Now."

"In 1989, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone, called Epogen, which remains in use today."

-Wikipedia

[Jaq]

"In 1989, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone, called Epogen, which remains in use today."

-Wikipedia

Approved in '89. But worked on and developed at least a decade and a half before then, according to the same Wikipedia article. We all know that the FDA doesn't grant same-day approvals; trials go on for, sometimes, decades.

Like I said, for all I know, he was using fermented horse-piss. But the words from this 18 year old kid's mouth were along the line of "EPO is great, but it effs up your skin. Like this." Whereupon he displayed his effed up legs and feet - and they were seriously scabrous enough that the memory lingers to this day.

What's more, one of the reasons he gave for using whatever it was he was using was that it allowed him and the other white guys using it to compete with "the black teams from LA," especially in the events like the 880 and the mile relay. Whatever he was using, it wasn't a muscle-builder like regular steroids, but a drug intended for better oxygen uptake (not that we knew anything about VO2 back then).

[saab2000]

.....but a drug intended for better oxygen uptake (not that we knew anything about VO2 back then).

They knew a fair amount about V02 back then. I remember when Greg Lemond got big in the sport and they talked about his VO2 capacity in the early 80s. We know more now, but they knew a lot back then too.

[Jaq]

I meant us kids. It was just a thing that made you better at the sport, but had s--tty side effects.

[54ny77]

You think cycling's got a drug problem?

They've got nothing on this.

Ping Jiang's like Bruyneel x100 (forcing a junior colleague to take female hormones to mellow him out a little, be more sensitive, trade smarter...). :p

http://dealbreaker.com/page/5/?s=ping+jiang+

"Andrew Tong, alleged that his boss, portfolio manager Ping Jiang, had forced him to take female hormone pills as part of a slightly unorthodox philosophy of Jiang’s that male traders needed to be more like women (not as aggressive, etc) in order to maximize returns. Tong also alleged that he was instructed by Jiang to wear dresses, and as a result of the pills, could not perform sexually with his wife, with whom he was trying to have a baby."

[nathanong87]

not like tour would have won a grand thor anyways. He's probably in the gruppetto on mountain stages regardless.

[Fiertetimestwo]

Approved in '89. But worked on and developed at least a decade and a half before then, according to the same Wikipedia article. We all know that the FDA doesn't grant same-day approvals; trials go on for, sometimes, decades.

Like I said, for all I know, he was using fermented horse-piss. But the words from this 18 year old kid's mouth were along the line of "EPO is great, but it effs up your skin. Like this." Whereupon he displayed his effed up legs and feet - and they were seriously scabrous enough that the memory lingers to this day.

What's more, one of the reasons he gave for using whatever it was he was using was that it allowed him and the other white guys using it to compete with "the black teams from LA," especially in the events like the 880 and the mile relay. Whatever he was using, it wasn't a muscle-builder like regular steroids, but a drug intended for better oxygen uptake (not that we knew anything about VO2 back then).
If it was EPO, I think that makes your point even more strongly- high school kids using an early version of an experimental non-approved drug. Holy crap.