Real world weights of steel frames

[professerr]

This is a cc of a question that got asked and then promptly shut down unanswered by those sensitive folk across the hall. But I remain curious so I'll cc the OP's question here: What are real measured weights on some of the steel frames out there?

You read alot of weights for different tubesets on different bikes but I know there alot of variables involved, obviously size of frame size of tubing where the butts where cut, and if the frame was made of mixed tubing. I'm not reslly interested in if someone doesn't care what there steel bike weighs, because let's be honest everyone cares a little at some point in everyone's mind a frame would be too heavy. So if you know the weight of your frame or frame and fork please post it. If you remember please post approximate size of bike and also supposed tubeset ie pegorichie, spirit, ox platinum 853 etc..

(Vsalonistas, please avert your eyes...)

[e-RICHIE]

1600 grams - 54cm frame size.
sheesh atmo...

[DRZRM]

Never weighed them unbuilt, but my 59cm IF SSR (so stainless) built with Record 10, Enve 2.0 fork, Enve 65s carbon clinchers, Speedplay X2, and carbon cages weighs 17.5 lbs.

My Zanconato CX (Pegorichie lugs/tubes) bike which is also a 59 with Record 10, steel fork, aluminium clinchers (Record hubs laced 32 to HED Belgiums) is around 19.5 lbs.

[Grant McLean]

I'm not real sure what the mystery is about finding frame weights.
A 3 minute google search is all that it takes.

frame materials-
Alu stuff like a Caad frame from Cannondale is in the 1200-1300g range
Carbon stuff that's real light is like 900 grams, but most of the stuff you'd
likely ride is in the 1000-1100 gram range.
Steel is going to be 1600-1900 grams. Will depend on the size and how it's joined.

Forks-
Carbon stuff is in the 350-400 gram range
Steel fork with a crown is about 700 grams

There is a whole website devoted to this stuff, it's not a secret:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php

[akelman]

My 56 cm Peg Luigino, built with silver Campy stuff, weighed about 19 lbs. My 56 cm Speedvagen, built with Record carbon stuff, weighs less than 17 lbs. My 56 cm Kirk JKS Special, also built up with Record carbon stuff, weighed a bit more than that, but it had a steel fork, which, more than anything else, probably accounted for the difference. My 56 cm Merckx Corsa Extra, built with silver Campy stuff, weighed about 21 lbs. And my (approximately) 57 cm DeSalvo 10th Anniversary, again built with Record carbon stuff, weighed a bit less than 18 lbs. I'm sure there have been others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. And for what it's worth, I won't allow any ultra-light parts anywhere near any of my bikes.

[thwart]

In size 56:

Zanconato Road (Pegoritchie tubeset), steel fork, with Campy headset installed: 6.12 lbs

De Rosa Neo Primato, steel fork, CK HS: 6.17 lbs

Pegoretti Duende, all carbon fork with CK HS installed: 5.37 lbs

And for reference:

Serotta Hors Categorie (titanium), carbon/alloy fork, sans headset: 4.74 lbs

Parlee Z4, all carbon fork, Cane Creek HS installed: 3.05 lbs

Seems that most HS weigh ~ 100 gms

[akelman]

I mean, I'm sure I could shave +/- 1 lb from any of my bikes without too much effort: ultralight pedals, carbon bits here and there, high-zoot tubular wheels, some really-hard-to-adjust brakes, a full-ti Record cassette, etc. But I'm not sure, given the kind of riding I do and the extra weight I'm lugging around on my misshapen body, what the point would be.

[Joachim]

All my bikes I own, from carbon to steel to titanium to ti/carbon = 17 +/- 1lbs per bike.

[54ny77]

my upcoming steel build will likely be in the 5.5lb (+/-) range for frame & fork only (54.5cm square).

total bike weight likely in the 18lb area w/modern components, which is still quite dandy.

[JLNK]

63cm Lighthouse frame with Max tubing, with a 62cm top tube, 43cm chainstays that is brazed - it weighs 4lbs 11 oz. I have a 65cm Serotta Colorado with a 62cm top tube that weighs 5lbs. For comparison I have a 63cm Habanero straight gauge ti frame with same geo as the Lighthouse that weighs 3.9lbs.

[professerr]

My 56 cm Peg Luigino, built with silver Campy stuff, weighed about 19 lbs. My 56 cm Speedvagen, built with Record carbon stuff, weighs less than 17 lbs. My 56 cm Kirk JKS Special, also built up with Record carbon stuff, weighed a bit more than that, but it had a steel fork, which, more than anything else, probably accounted for the difference. My 56 cm Merckx Corsa Extra, built with silver Campy stuff, weighed about 21 lbs. And my (approximately) 57 cm DeSalvo 10th Anniversary, again built with Record carbon stuff, weighed a bit less than 18 lbs. I'm sure there have been others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. And for what it's worth, I won't allow any ultra-light parts anywhere near any of my bikes.

Thanks for that info. What I'm curious about though, specifically, is just the frame weight and the fork weight.

There's tons of info out there about the weight of every other component that makes up the whole bike, but very little about the actual frame weights. Even the weight weenies site Grant linked to posts only a few steel frames, and at most a couple customs.

[Ahneida Ride]

Traditional Lugged Bedford size 65 ... 60 2 deg sloping top tube

Stainless lugs .... Stainless seat and chain stays...

frame only ..... no fork or head set ...

Built with a mix of True Temper and KVA stainless ...

Just over 4 pounds ... about 1875 grams

Kelly used a down tube for the seat tube ..... He had to custom Filet the BB and then manufacture the BB lugs.

[Ahneida Ride]

1600 grams - 54cm frame size.
sheesh atmo...

Ha ! ..... 1875 for a 65 (plus fork and HS) :eek::banana:

[pdmtong]

55 responsorium
- XcR frame = 1800g
- fork (uncut trigon) = 390g

eTT 56.5 IF SSR SEC
- 953 painted frame with reynolds carbon stays = 1500g

[Grant McLean]

Even the weight weenies site Grant linked to posts only a few steel frames, and at most a couple customs.

That's because there isn't nearly the variation you're thinking there is.

If it's small it's going to be in the lower range 1600-1700grams
and if it's big and/or a particularly heavy gauge, it's more like 1800-1900 grams.

All steel weighs the same. The difference between frames is how much
of it was used in the tubeset. All the variables you're thinking about don't
really add up to much for any particular example. Think about any steel
frame as belonging to a class category.

A thin wall tubeset weighs the same no matter who built it
weight examples: Cervelo Prodigy or Lemond Zurich - 1700g

A classic columbus SL standard size tube frame: Merckx Corsa
or raleigh 531 - 1850g-1900+

If you know a little about what the tubeset is, you can guess within
about 100 grams.

-g

[Joachim]

Size 56cm lugged steel with mix of S3 (TT, ST and seat stays) and OX plat (HT and DT) with Spirit for Lugs chainstays, 3.5 lbs.

[beeatnik]

I like these threads. Especially when I see someone claiming their 57cm Speedvagen is 14.5 pounds with clinchers and a 600g crankset.

[flydhest]

Is the summary here something like steel frame and fork versus (parlee-grade) frame and fork is about 1500 grams or three pounds?

If you can get your Parlee to 13 pounds with the choice of compnents and wheels, you can get your steel bike to 16. 16 is light no matter how you look at it.

[christian]

Grant's figures match my experience. Basically, going from a high end steel frameset to a quality carbon frameset (non-weight weenie), you'll lose about a pound and a quarter. Maybe slightly more.

Edit: And you can lose almost exactly another pound going from a steel fork to a carbon fork.

[e-RICHIE]

Ha ! ..... 1875 for a 65 (plus fork and HS) :eek::banana:

I am missing your point atmo.

[1/2 Wheeler]

.....(Vsalonistas, please avert your eyes...)

Not a chance! It takes allot of effort to prove material doesn't matter.

[e-RICHIE]

Not a chance! It takes allot of effort to prove material doesn't matter.

I thought the OP was about weight, stationary at that, not material atmo.

[Mark McM]

Custom T.E.T., True Temper S3 tubing, 53mm C-C seat tube (55mm top tube), 1378 grams. Complete bike (including computer and water bottle cages) about 16 1/2 lbs.

[1/2 Wheeler]

I thought the OP was about weight, stationary at that, not material atmo.

My reading comprehension is questionable but I thought it was about weight of material.

I think we can all agree that if he is only using it on a trainer then the weight won't matter.

[oliver1850]

1990 58 cm (57 TT) Serotta Nova Special, lugged Columbus SL, stripped of paint: 1,940 g
matching fork with 8" steerer: 680g

1989 59 cm (57.5 TT) Serotta Nova Special X, lugged Columbus SLX, professional repaint with clear over decals: 2,300 g

NOS circa 1992 Titan, lugged Columbus Thron, oversized DT and TT, braze on FD tab, internal brake cable, 59 x 57, chromed and painted: 2,160 g

circa 2002? Serotta Colorado III, tigged Colorado tubing, 57 x 57, repainted?: 1820 g

Match built Paramount, 56 x 56, lugged Reynolds 853, original paint: 1940 g

Terry Isis, 58 x 53, tigged Reynolds 853, braze on tab and rack bosses, original paint: 2080 g

All frames weighed today on same scale with all hardware removed. All frames have DT shifter bosses except the CIII; the Paramount has a pump peg, the Titan has a chain hanger, the lugged Serottas have both. Will post some more forks if I can find them.

[e-RICHIE]

My reading comprehension is questionable but I thought it was about weight of material.

I think we can all agree that if he is only using it on a trainer then the weight won't matter.

There is so little difference in the range of what is used for a particular frame that weight may not matter in real world use atmo. The moving parts - that's another story. But less than a pound on average between the extremes? I dunno. Maybe if you are lifting the bicycle over your head all day long. But on the road, for a normal person whose weight and strength are hypothetical here, a unit assembled on a 1600 gram frame versus one that is 1800 grams - if someone can tell that difference riding than I defer to that person's ability to perceive.

Anyway - the cat asked about weights of finished frames made using steel. That is something I know about. I know what they weigh after paint and before. There's no graph that will speak to what's added when the finish is applied. To that end, unpainted frames weigh several ounces less. Could you feel that? That's a rhetorical question. I wrote earlier, all contemporary frames are within a pound of each other, notwithstanding the 900 gram CF special use models OR the 4 1/2 pound steel frames made as recently as a decade ago.

[mosca]

OK, I'll play. Kirk JKS Terraplane, 59.5mm TT, 1767g. Matching steel fork, 735g. I think Dave uses Reynolds 953 for the three main tubes on the JKS.

I went with steel because it seemed appropriate for the ride quality I wanted, lugged because I like the way it looks, and Kirk because Dave is a cool guy. I didn't think about the weight at all until I got the frame, then my curiosity got the best of me so onto the scale it went.

I realize that some people don't have a handle on their priorities, but I get tired of reading ten lectures about the relative importance of weight every time the topic comes up. I did appreciate Grant's posts, however - pretty much all you need to know in any practical sense. Beyond that, it's just curiosity I think.

[cash05458]

My old MXL weighs a beast...it really is heavier than most steel frames I have picked up...I could care less...certainly you can save weight by not having lugs...whatever you like...I had a crabon/ti frame bike abit back...my average speeds on long rides never changed abit...or maybe another 500 meters over an hour and half...I still got home...

[Lovetoclimb]

Never weighed them unbuilt, but my 59cm IF SSR (so stainless) built with Record 10, Enve 2.0 fork, Enve 65s carbon clinchers, Speedplay X2, and carbon cages weighs 17.5 lbs.

My Zanconato CX (Pegorichie lugs/tubes) bike which is also a 59 with Record 10, steel fork, aluminium clinchers (Record hubs laced 32 to HED Belgiums) is around 19.5 lbs.

I just want to say excellent taste in bicycles and componentry!

[fa63]

My 58 cm Soma Smoothie (Tange Prestige tubes) was 2,080 g.

[Mark McM]

There is so little difference in the range of what is used for a particular frame that weight may not matter in real world use atmo. The moving parts - that's another story. But less than a pound on average between the extremes? I dunno. Maybe if you are lifting the bicycle over your head all day long. But on the road, for a normal person whose weight and strength are hypothetical here, a unit assembled on a 1600 gram frame versus one that is 1800 grams - if someone can tell that difference riding than I defer to that person's ability to perceive.

I agree that a pound of difference in total bike weight is barely perceptable, if at all, in normal riding situations, especially given that there are plenty of other variables that vary far more widely, even on an individual ride.

But there are few exceptional situations, where an extra pound of weight can make a measurable difference. I refer specifically to hill climb races, such as the northeast B.U.M.P.S. series. These climbs are so steep that uphill speed will be nearly inversely proportional to total weight (all else being equal), so for example in the Mt. Washington Hill Climb that extra pound of weight will probably add extra 30 - 40 seconds on your race time.

But of course, such races aren't your normal rides, and many people use specialized equipment for these races. When I do these races a use an Uber-Light bike that is specially set up for these events, and in fact this bike is actually not particularly good for most normal road riding.

[weaponsgrade]

My JKS frameset is 2183 grams. Has about a 54cm TT and 51cm ST.

[Louis]

2183 grams

= 4.813 lbs

[the bottle ride]

My JKS frameset is 2183 grams. Has about a 54cm TT and 51cm ST.

This thread would be so much better with pictures

[David Kirk]

My JKS frameset is 2183 grams. Has about a 54cm TT and 51cm ST.

I'd double check that one.........it's very very rare that a JKS is over 4 lbs and then only when they are really large. I'd expect this to be about 3.8ish pounds at the most.

Dave

[binouye]

1982 Ciocc, 56, Columbus SL 1915 g no paint, Ciocc fork 712 g. (repainted now, but I only weighted it unpainted).
Fillet brazed (by me), 56, Columbus Brain OS, powdercoated, 1910 g
Fillet brazed (by me), 56, Columbus Zona, powdercoated, 1700 g
IF Crown Jewel, 55, tubing unknown, nice paint, 1735 g. IF steel fork, 600g

Thin butted tubes and slightly sloping design can save about 200 g (bit less than half a pound) over a steel frame with thicker tubes. Choice of dropouts and braze-ons matters for a few 10s of grams. To me, the 1 to 1.5 pounds you could lose with a light carbon frame isn't worth it.

[Llewellyn]

Why did they shut down the original question in the other place - can't see anything wrong with what he asked?? :confused:

FWIW I have no idea how much my frame weighs, about 1.5kg I expect, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. I had them weigh the bike when it was in a shop a couple of months ago and the whole thing ready to ride was 9.3kg. Shock, horror - about 2kg more than the average high-end bike :eek: :eek:. But I couldn't care less how much it weighs coz I weigh a lot more than that!!!

[jchasse]

I'm seriously not trying to poke the beehive here, just want to know...

To those in the weight doesn't matter camp, how much weight doesn't matter?

All of the road and cross bikes in our garage (6 of them) have Campy 10 speed on them, so we can swap wheels back and forth all over the place. They all have FSA bars, same saddles, and either Record or Chorus from the same generation. So in my mind the component weight and rotating weight isn't much of a variable.

I can absolutely feel the difference between the old fendered Gunnar (853 frame and steel fork) at 20+ lbs, vs. a carbon or Ti 16 pound bike with exactly the same wheels etc. So I know that I, a luddite, can absolutely feel 4.5 lbs difference on the road.

So where's the "it doesn't matter" line? 1 lb? 2 lbs?

on edit...i realize that the 4+ lb difference between the Gunnar and the light bikes includes the fenders, mud flaps, lock bracket, frame pump - all of which is pretty equivalent to frame weight - it's not rotating weight.

[Louis]

To those in the weight doesn't matter camp, how much weight doesn't matter?

IMO, once a built-up bike is below 20 lbs, the actual weight doesn't matter one whit to me. (Unless it's around 15 lbs, in which case I would not want one, even if you were giving them away.)

[CunegoFan]

Why did they shut down the original question in the other place - can't see anything wrong with what he asked?? :confused:


They were competing to see who could be the biggest a-hole to the OP. Finally someone won and the thread was closed.

[regularguy412]

The first time I had my CSi repainted at Serotta, I weighed the frame at my local LBS when I got it back. It's 56 cm square. Frame alone weights 3.1 lbs. I did not weigh the Ouzo Pro full carbon fork, so I'd have to say it is 'stock' weight less about 1.25 inches cut off the steerer. The full bike with bottle cages, aluminum bars, titanium threadless stem, DA 7410 pedals, American Classic aluminum seat post, selle italia 100th anniversary saddle and 32 hole Campy Record Crono rims built up on Ultegra hubs and shod with Continental GP 19 mm tubies weighs in slightly under 18 lbs.

IMHO, that ain't bad for a steel frame. Plus,, it rides great !

Mike in AR:beer:

[thwart]

To me, the 1 to 1.5 pounds you could lose with a light carbon frame isn't worth it.

I'm no weight weenie, but facts are facts.

All the nice steel framesets (meaning both frame 'n fork in steel) I've owned have weighed somewhere around 6 lbs (the lightest, BTW, at somewhere around 5.7 lbs, was a Waterford).

OTOH, my Parlee Z4 frameset weighs 3 lbs. Built with high level (but non-weight weenie) components and a light tubular wheelset it comes in right at the UCI weight limit. And I wouldn't describe the Z4 as being on the bleeding edge of lightweight carbon.

Not surprisingly, with the same build and wheels, the steel framesets hover around 18 lbs.

Personally, for most rides, I'll pick the heavier Pegoretti (which does have a carbon fork) over the Z4. Regardless of the weight difference... :eek:

But facts are facts.

[notoriousdjw]

The 56cm Soma Smoothie I purchased from DReitz was 4.25 lbs or 1931g. The soma ES fork was a somewhat heavy 2lbs (920g). I tried a carbon fork which saved a pound but lost that nice feeling over bumps.

The gist of the Vsalon argument was that steel bike buyers shouldn't care about weight or even weigh their bikes. I love steel more than any other material but still weigh everything. It never results in a light bike (the Soma is just under 21lbs built as a single speed and my Salsa Casseroll is 27lbs). I just like to know. My 17lb Seven Elium is wonderful but lacks fenders and as such it only gets ridden when the weather is nice and there is no salt on the roads.

[jchasse]

IMO, once a built-up bike is below 20 lbs, the actual weight doesn't matter one whit to me. (Unless it's around 15 lbs, in which case I would not want one, even if you were giving them away.)

Again, not trying to agitate, but how in the world can there be an absolute weight (20lbs in this case) above or below which weight does or doesn't matter. Does not compute in my mind.

A 30 lb bike just plain feels different than a 25 lb bike, which feels different than a 20 lb bike. I'm calling BS on anyone, expert or not, who disputes this. It may not make you materially faster over 35 miles. But it fells different to ride. :confused:

[Louis]

Again, not trying to agitate, but how in the world can there be an absolute weight (20lbs in this case) above or below which weight does or doesn't matter. Does not compute in my mind.

It's a nice round arbitrary number chosen by me (and others) that can be reached without excessive effort or expense.

[weaponsgrade]

I'd double check that one.........it's very very rare that a JKS is over 4 lbs and then only when they are really large. I'd expect this to be about 3.8ish pounds at the most.

Dave

I included the fork in the measurement. The frame itself measured right at 3.8 lbs (including King headset cups and a liberal coating of framesaver).

[beeatnik]

I think a 2.66lb (1206 g) steel frame is awesome:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/03/02/nahbs-2012-rob-englishs-project-right-project-light/

Of course, I no longer weigh 220lbs and waste 3 hours daily at the gym doing super sets.

My steel bike is 20lbs. It feels fast but goes slow (when it's in the mix with Tarmacs and Giants).

1484g Rob English
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79009&start=150#p783673

[dd74]

I think some parameters need to be established as far as how a frame is weighed. For instance, is a frame usually weighed with or without the fork?

At any rate, I've never thought frame weight to be that important. It's wheel and component weight that needs to be considered.

My bike can vary as much as 1.5 lbs, maybe even 2 lbs depending upon wheels alone.

[binouye]

I'm no weight weenie, but facts are facts.

Agreed. I was thinking of a steel frame with light carbon fork and light components vs carbon frame/f/light components. But then a really light carbon frame can drop more than 2 pounds from the steel frame I guess.

I can certainly tell the difference between the Ciöcc's heavier steel frame/fork (and heavier components since its all alloy stuff), and a light Ti or steel frame with carbon fork and Campy Record 11. I confess I've never owned a super light carbon frame -- short borrowed rides are not the best basis for an opinion, and the Specialized carbon frame I used to have was not a fair comparison to a Parlee, I'm sure.

[beeatnik]

Every time a guy on a steel bike claims he doesn't care about weight and yet rides Sramz Red, I gotta wonder...

[MadRocketSci]

some people just like the feel of a lightweight frameset...that whole "squirts ahead" thing makes them feel fast. Me, it's cool for about 15 minutes, then the realization that my ass is still not squirting ahead any faster kicks in.

[Peter B]

Every time a guy on a steel bike claims he doesn't care about weight and yet rides Sramz Red, I gotta wonder...

I don't care about weight.

[beeatnik]

Beautiful bikes, great component choices.

[esldude]

some people just like the feel of a lightweight frameset...that whole "squirts ahead" thing makes them feel fast. Me, it's cool for about 15 minutes, then the realization that my ass is still not squirting ahead any faster kicks in.

Oh I think you have it there. But if I can't be faster, I prefer feeling a little faster rather than not feeling faster.

[mtechnica]

I call BS on steel bikes, even 6lb frameset bikes, actually being 'slower', it's 99% the rider that's causing the slowness, the extra 2lbs is just an excuse IMO. All else being equal swapping a carbon frameset to an all steel one, with the same components and fit, won't be the difference between being dropped and not dropped unless we're talking racing (real racing with fast people) in which case either is a dumb choice compared to aluminum to begin with, and if you're good enough to need a top of the line carbon racing bike ask your team for one.

[dd74]

some people just like the feel of a lightweight frameset...that whole "squirts ahead" thing makes them feel fast. Me, it's cool for about 15 minutes, then the realization that my ass is still not squirting ahead any faster kicks in.
Maybe you should "squirt" faster/harder, 'cause it (the squirt) does work on a steel frame. Or at least on my old SL Colnago it does. Sure, it takes some effort, but the frame does rebound from a hard effort to jolt it and the rider forward. This works anywhere; on hills, when racing for traffic signals, sprints - you name it.

My carbon bike is just light (and fast), but in no way does it have the personality and rider partnership that my Colnago has. My Colnago seems to know me better than I know it. My Serotta CdA is somewhere in between, though still having more character than my carbon Ridley. I chalk that up to the steel and not necessarily the CdA's carbon fork and stays.

[soulspinner]

Custom TET 55, level top tube, 142 headtube, 420 chainstays, foco (columbus .7/.4/.7) 1529 grams with bottle bolts, seat collar, under bottom bracket tray for cables, and braze on front der included, no headset. Hope thats precise enuff.

[oldpotatoe]

This is a cc of a question that got asked and then promptly shut down unanswered by those sensitive folk across the hall. But I remain curious so I'll cc the OP's question here: What are real measured weights on some of the steel frames out there?

You read alot of weights for different tubesets on different bikes but I know there alot of variables involved, obviously size of frame size of tubing where the butts where cut, and if the frame was made of mixed tubing. I'm not reslly interested in if someone doesn't care what there steel bike weighs, because let's be honest everyone cares a little at some point in everyone's mind a frame would be too heavy. So if you know the weight of your frame or frame and fork please post it. If you remember please post approximate size of bike and also supposed tubeset ie pegorichie, spirit, ox platinum 853 etc..

(Vsalonistas, please avert your eyes...)

why I stopped goin' over there.

Moots Vamoots, about 4 years old-1489 grams, frame only

[Hls2k6]

Every time a guy on a steel bike claims he doesn't care about weight and yet rides Sramz Red, I gotta wonder...

Um, Red & Force are, from a racer's perspective, an awesome, functional choice at an excellent price. I fit the description above, so does Richard's cross team (on Force), and, according to him, so do most of the bikes he sells these days. So wonder no more, sir.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Every time a guy on a steel bike claims he doesn't care about weight and yet rides Sramz Red, I gotta wonder...

They probably really are not worried about weight. The #1 concern,regarding bike choice, for damn near anyone that post on a cycling Forum is prestige. Performance has zero to do with why we get high end groups, wheels and custom frames. We just get joy out of riding what others can't afford or what they are to clueless to know about.

There is a sub $2K option available for every discipline of cycling at Bikesdirect that is every bit as good as the best Trek, Specialized, Sachs, Peg or Zitti.

[oldpotatoe]

Um, Red & Force are, from a racer's perspective, an awesome, functional choice at an excellent price. I fit the description above, so does Richard's cross team (on Force), and, according to him, so do most of the bikes he sells these days. So wonder no more, sir.

Well, a lot of frame builder's choices may be 'influenced' by the above. OE pricing is often an offer a frame builder can't refuse.

From another forum,

"Here's what the Secret Pro (strongly suspected to be Bernhard Eisel from Sky) has to say on the topic:

"Everyone in the pro peloton bashes one particular groupset though [ed. SRAM Red]. It’s all in good fun, but it’s an unwritten rule that you have to take the **** out of the guys who are on that groupset.""



Sure wish they could figure out the FD BUT just use a 6700 FD, shimano cogset and chain and yes, these can work quite adequately.

From in the trenches, I see too many warranty issues with sram road gear and for the first time, they didn't warranty a Rival lever that broke..a first for me.

[e-RICHIE]

Well, a lot of Richard's choices are 'influenced' by the above. OE pricing is often an offer a frame builder can't refuse.



My choices are influenced by relationships and never by excellent prices.
Or, at least they all have as of this reply atmo. I don't expect that will change.

[oldpotatoe]

My choices are influenced by relationships and never by excellent prices.
Or, at least they all have as of this reply atmo. I don't expect that will change.

Changed what I said, don't want to speak for you, apologize.

Have you heard anything about sram 11s? I have heard rumblings from 'some.

[zap]

I think a 2.66lb (1206 g) steel frame is awesome:

]

Snapskie light.

There are better material choices if weight is a concern.

[mike p]

I'd be afraid to swing a leg over that bike. I don't think I'd make it around the block before breaking something on that thing!

Mike

"I think a 2.66lb (1206 g) steel frame is awesome:"

[Hls2k6]

Well, a lot of frame builder's choices may be 'influenced' by the above. OE pricing is often an offer a frame builder can't refuse.

From another forum,

"Here's what the Secret Pro (strongly suspected to be Bernhard Eisel from Sky) has to say on the topic:

"Everyone in the pro peloton bashes one particular groupset though [ed. SRAM Red]. It’s all in good fun, but it’s an unwritten rule that you have to take the **** out of the guys who are on that groupset.""



Sure wish they could figure out the FD BUT just use a 6700 FD, shimano cogset and chain and yes, these can work quite adequately.

From in the trenches, I see too many warranty issues with sram road gear and for the first time, they didn't warranty a Rival lever that broke..a first for me.

The new Red has none of the issues you cite. None. And my "trenches" experience (working on the retail end & racing my bikes) has been terrific both in terms of performance & customer service. SRAM is a company I feel great about supporting.

My only point was that your post, suggesting no one would choose Red unless they did so for weight reasons, does not apply to me or many others. Suggesting that framebuilders choose components on price and profit only, while citing the pro peloton as supportive of our opinion no less, seems like a whole lot bigger assumption still.

Not trying to suggest one of us is wrong; I'm happy to agree to disagree, but both of your posts suggest anyone who disagrees with you must be disingenuous and really concerned with weight or profit, respectively.

[professerr]

Well, a lot of frame builder's choices may be 'influenced' by the above. OE pricing is often an offer a frame builder can't refuse.


Are there significant differences between the major brands (Campagnolo, SRAM and Shimano) when it comes builder/retailer margins?

Apologies for the OP for the thread drift...

[Gummee]

I tend to go by the 'Tom Greaves Biggest, Gnarliest' theory of life: buy the best that you can afford. That way you don't have to upgrade as often.

For the longest time I was on D/A 7700 cause that was the best I could afford. ...but nowadays, the budget requires me to ride lots of Force and Rival. I'm no slower on the lower level stuff, but I DO like the way my Red shifters work better than my 2 pair of Rival shifters.

YMMV

M

[mtechnica]

Performance has zero to do with why we get high end groups, wheels and custom frames.

don't include me in your we

[PaMtbRider]

There is a sub $2K option available for every discipline of cycling at Bikesdirect that is every bit as good as the best Trek, Specialized, Sachs, Peg or Zitti.

Really? Not 80-90 percent or even 90-95 percent as good, but every bit.

[Hls2k6]

Are there significant differences between the major brands (Campagnolo, SRAM and Shimano) when it comes builder/retailer margins?

Apologies for the OP for the thread drift...

On the retail end, no. And the prevalence of shimano and SRAM as OEM spec suggests no on the production bikes end, too. Can't speak for the custom guys, but no mfr seems to dominate there, either.

[Grant McLean]

Are there significant differences between the major brands (Campagnolo, SRAM and Shimano) when it comes builder/retailer margins?

The answer depends what the assumptions for both the wholesale and market price,
since those prices can vary wildly, depending on who the builder or retailer buys it from,
and what they actually sell it for. (the manufacturers suggested retail price can be largely fictional)


-g

[Ahneida Ride]

I'd double check that one.........it's very very rare that a JKS is over 4 lbs and then only when they are really large. I'd expect this to be about 3.8ish pounds at the most.

Dave

I would too.

[Ahneida Ride]

I am missing your point atmo.

My humble apologies ..... no offense intended...

Just thought than 4+ pounds for a large 65 traditional lugged frame was
rather good.

[FlashUNC]

My Columbus MAX frame is about 21 pounds fully built. Does the weight affect me uphill? Probably not more than the extra 20 pounds I'm carrying around my gut.

Screams downhill though.

[rnhood]

My only point was that your post, suggesting no one would choose Red unless they did so for weight reasons, does not apply to me or many others. Suggesting that framebuilders choose components on price and profit only, while citing the pro peloton as supportive of our opinion no less, seems like a whole lot bigger assumption still.




Well, it does apply to me. I struggled with Red for 6 month (adjustment after adjustment, swapping the chain, the cassette, the FD, etc) trying to get it to shift smooth and reliable like my 7800 equipped bike. After 6 months of frustration, I cringed with the thought of money but told my dealer to just take it off and put the then new 7900 group on it. Never a problem since. Smooth, refined and reliable just like my 7800 equipped bike.

2013 Red might have resolved most of the functional issues, but it still needs frequent adjustment judging from a riding friend's bike. Its much better than theh previous generation but still a full step behind Shimano. I wouldn't have Red on a bike.

[bluesea]

When picking up my Duende after first building it up, it felt heavy. Picking it up now, it doesn't feel so heavy.

[Lionel]

I ride 62cm frames

Zank Columbus OOS tubes, SaxMax lugs 1940g
Strong Columbus XCr 1560g
Sachs: don't know

[Kirk007]

They probably really are not worried about weight. The #1 concern,regarding bike choice, for damn near anyone that post on a cycling Forum is prestige. Performance has zero to do with why we get high end groups, wheels and custom frames. We just get joy out of riding what others can't afford or what they are to clueless to know about.

There is a sub $2K option available for every discipline of cycling at Bikesdirect that is every bit as good as the best Trek, Specialized, Sachs, Peg or Zitti.

With respect, I think these absolutist statements are off base. Facts may be facts, but its the assumptions that will undue the argument.

If the only value of a bike was as a tool with a specific function then maybe your last statement would hold some water, but that is not the only value for many, and I would suspect most on this forum. Now, maybe the sub 2K assertion holds up for someone who would buy a frame based solely on weight, thinking that absolute weight was the direct indicator of "best" as they define it to themselves, or to the person looking only for a hard core race bike that can be ridden hard and put away wet; that if wrapped around a pole in a crit can we walked away from with minimal emotional dispair, but I don't think you find many of those folks here. I don't think the argument holds up on the performance yardstick either; it depends on how performance is being measured and for what purpose. Again if the performance yardstick is only the local crit, then I think the 2k argument has more merit, but that is not the only performance metric.

Nor do I think you can fairly ascribe a shallowness to all here as set forth in the first statement re getting joy out of riding what others can't afford or what they are clueless about. I like to think that most of us have a bit more depth of character than the characters portrayed on the "Dallas" genre of TV shows.

If utilitarian function was the sole value with merit in the world it would be a rather dull, drab and uninspiring place.

[krismac23]

Thinking of getting a stainless IF to race road race's this year. anybody know the weight of something around a size 50? still about the same 1700gs

[dd74]

Thinking of getting a stainless IF to race road race's this year. anybody know the weight of something around a size 50? still about the same 1700gs
With or w/o fork? W/O fork, it should be lighter? I've heard stainless is lighter than Ti, but I don't want to go down that route. :eek:

[NHAero]

My Anderson lugged stainless frame weighted in at 4.19 pounds with the CK headset and no fork. I specifically told Dave that I wasn't going to weight weenie him in the design and that I also didn't want to worry about denting top tubes when I leaned it against a tree :-) It has rack and fender braze-ons and a disc tab, so I can imagine that the stays might be more rugged than a race bike. The fork is steel rather than stainless steel because Dave wasn't comfortable with the stainless fork tube choices for loads imposed on a disc fork. It weighs in at 2.23 pounds with almost a foot of steerer that I haven't cut yet - pretty stout.

There's no carbon on the bike and the wheels have White Industries disc hubs and Velocity Synergy rims, and the bike has disc brakes. It has triple chainrings and MTB derailleurs and bar end shifters. I think it weighed in at 22 pounds complete. My Ti Concours was about 18.5 pounds complete with the F1 fork. The Anderson plus me suited up is about 2% heavier than me and the Concours. If I was racing it would matter, as a recreational cyclist it doesn't at all. I knew I wasn't building a really light bike so it wasn't a surprise. If that's what I'd asked Dave for, I'm sure I would have gotten it!

[54ny77]

hey can we get back on track here as to the op's original question, which is how much does your thing weigh?

those that have answered have provided some great info. for example, i didn't know very big steel frames (as listed on this thread) were just marginally heavier than the typical bell curve sizes (54-56).

nhaero--let's see a photo of that anderson!

[DHallerman]

Some data points for size 56 cm, five different steel frames.

And all five with -- to be exact -- bottle-cage bolts and seatpost clamp or bolt (but no forks or headsets):

Burley Fox Hollow = 3.88 lbs. (1760 grams)
Ibis Sonoma = 3.97 lbs. (1801 grams)
Mezzatesta Custom = 4.60 lbs. (2087 grams)
Bridgestone RB-1 = 4.80 lbs. (2177 grams)
Specialized Allez Pro = 4.05 lbs. (1837 grams)

All but one are factory frames, all are different types of steel, and an interesting variation of weights.

Perhaps the most interesting comparison is between the Bridgestone and the Specialized. Both 1993 frames, both manufactured in Japan, both lugged steel -- and memory says direct competitors in the market those 20 years ago. And yet the Specialized weighs 240 grams less.

Dave, who likes riding the Fox Hollow the best among those five but that might have something to do with it being the only compact frame among those five

[MrDangerPants]

According to Nao Tomii (http://tomiicycles.com/), my frame (http://www.flickr.com/photos/3rrrproducts/sets/72157631929710836/) came in at 1670g. He used a mix of True Temper OX Platinum and Columbus Life tubing. It's a 55.5cm.

This thread would be so much better with pictures

Okay:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8362917612_1a2aac9b35_o.jpg

[rnhood]

Thinking of getting a stainless IF to race road race's this year. anybody know the weight of something around a size 50? still about the same 1700gs

The slight difference in chromium content makes for a slightly denser median thus a slight increase in weight over carbon steel, all things otherwise equal. The engineering rule of thumb is that stainless weighs about 2.4% more than its carbon steel counterpart.

[oldpotatoe]

The new Red has none of the issues you cite. None. And my "trenches" experience (working on the retail end & racing my bikes) has been terrific both in terms of performance & customer service. SRAM is a company I feel great about supporting.

My only point was that your post, suggesting no one would choose Red unless they did so for weight reasons, does not apply to me or many others. Suggesting that framebuilders choose components on price and profit only, while citing the pro peloton as supportive of our opinion no less, seems like a whole lot bigger assumption still.

Not trying to suggest one of us is wrong; I'm happy to agree to disagree, but both of your posts suggest anyone who disagrees with you must be disingenuous and really concerned with weight or profit, respectively.

Well, more than a few frame builders DO choose component because of the price. The 2 big boys do that every year.

Geee, if ya want to disagree, go right ahead, I'm a big boy.

I have seen the 2013 Red and installed it and works better(Fd) for sure but it is not at the level of DA and SR/Record/CHorus, IMHO-In My Humble Opinion.

Sram warranty program is unmatched. Until recently I could warranty anything sram, at any time, for any reason...which includes about 2 dozen levers..to many for me and my biz, IMHO.

If ya like sram, groovey.

[oldpotatoe]

Are there significant differences between the major brands (Campagnolo, SRAM and Shimano) when it comes builder/retailer margins?

Apologies for the OP for the thread drift...

Yes

Product managers sit down with shimano and sram every year, talk about price points on bicycles and then talk groups, numbers, delivery times and price, lots about price.

The info between the 2 often is shared and you will hear things like, "well I can get this group and these wheels at such and such in these numbers for these dates..over to 'YOU', can you do better?

Product managers really don't care about much other than numbers, timing, and price. But comparible groups, comparible selling prices and making better margins.

[T.J.]

Never weighed the frame, no intentions to.


http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk306/girofan/image-8.jpg

[beeatnik]

The SV with Redz

or

this with Campy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/nismosr/_MG_0030_zps419a29d1.jpg

They prolly weigh about the same.

[T.J.]

The SV with Redz

or

this with Campy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/nismosr/_MG_0030_zps419a29d1.jpg

They prolly weigh about the same.

I would answer but I'm kinda biased:banana:

[beeatnik]

It would be a tough choice for me and I LUST for an SV.

Love your frameset.

[54ny77]

is that that sky blue-ish color scheme? if so, probably my favorite of any speedvagen of recent vintage. they did that what, about 4 or so years ago?

p.s. i understand the comment about not weighing it, but that defeats the purpose of this thread. we know you, and many others (myself included) don't care about what it weighs relative to how it rides. but just out of curiosity for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to know. maybe 4.5 lbs +/- for frame & fork?

Never weighed the frame, no intentions to.


http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk306/girofan/image-8.jpg

[T.J.]

is that that sky blue-ish color scheme? if so, probably my favorite of any speedvagen of recent vintage. they did that what, about 4 or so years ago?

p.s. i understand the comment about not weighing it, but that kinda defeats the purpose of this thread. we know you, and many others (myself included) don't care about what it weighs relative to how it rides. but just out of curiosity for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to know. maybe 4 lbs +/-?

Sacha did this as a one off paint scheme a couple of years ago and then offered it the next year. Robin egg blue I believe

[jlwdm]

2005 CSI 62.5 actual after 1 degree of slope: 4.68 lbs 2123 gr

2009 Spectrum Ti a little larger: 3.625 lbs 1644 gr

Jeff

[T.J.]

is that that sky blue-ish color scheme? if so, probably my favorite of any speedvagen of recent vintage. they did that what, about 4 or so years ago?

p.s. i understand the comment about not weighing it, but that defeats the purpose of this thread. we know you, and many others (myself included) don't care about what it weighs relative to how it rides. but just out of curiosity for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to know. maybe 4.5 lbs +/- for frame & fork?

Missed your edit. You know I would say your guess is fairly close. With ec90 tubies we weighed it after it was built. Came in in the mid 15's

[MadRocketSci]

Maybe you should "squirt" faster/harder, 'cause it (the squirt) does work on a steel frame. Or at least on my old SL Colnago it does. Sure, it takes some effort, but the frame does rebound from a hard effort to jolt it and the rider forward. This works anywhere; on hills, when racing for traffic signals, sprints - you name it.


my 1997 atlanta with reynolds UK 531 steel tubeset, fork, and shimano threaded hs weighed in the neighborhood of 7lbs according to my bathroom scale.

The "squirting"* ahead thing refers to how the bike reacts when stepping on the pedals out of saddle. Since a bike and the rider are not rigidly coupled together, there will be some relative motion as the bike pulls the rider along via feet and hands. Even when the total weight difference is in the 2% range, when taking the bike alone a 3 lb difference can be in the 15-20% range. So when you step on the pedals the lighter bike will seem to accelerate faster. The issue is that it will have to still drag the rider's body along with it, thus making the overall effect much smaller as pointed out endlessly. But feeling wise, there is the real perception of increased acceleration.

So to apply the fernando lamas expression to bikes, for some, "it is better to feel fast than to be fast"

i have about the same thoughts towards bb stiffness.

* or apply your favorite stiff/light bike cliche - scalded cat, goat, squirrel up a tree, monkey with crampons, meth-addicted rabbit, etc, etc....

[dd74]

* or apply your favorite stiff/light bike cliche - scalded cat, goat, squirrel up a tree, monkey with crampons, meth-addicted rabbit, etc, etc....
You forgot "raped ape."

[fade]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8384/8481911194_1e150d3ca4_c.jpg

i forgot to weigh the frame and fork... but the bike weighs 8.74kg as shown.

minimax tubing with force and open pros+7800 hubs.

[krismac23]

With or w/o fork? W/O fork, it should be lighter? I've heard stainless is lighter than Ti, but I don't want to go down that route. :eek:

I was going w/o fork a stainless fork, I like the Enve Forks alot!:banana:
But still haven't gotten an answer.. Does anyone1 ride a stainless around a 50cm know the frame or frame/fork weight? sry I couldn't figure out the 2.4% of weight differance to carbon steel.

[dd74]

What's carbon steel? Do you mean a steel frame with a carbon fork and stays?

[SamIAm]

Just got my new CG, double OS tubing, Enve 2.0 fork (uncut), headset, size 63cm comes in at 2400 grams.

[Chance]

What's carbon steel? Do you mean a steel frame with a carbon fork and stays?

Is this meant to make us laugh or cry?

[Chance]

Frame a little over 4 pounds. Fork a little over 1-1/2 pounds. Combined under 6 pounds; and about 2 pounds heavier than my lightest carbon frameset. And for what it's worth, the extra 2 pounds or so don't matter to me.

[dd74]

Is this meant to make us laugh or cry?
It's meant as a question. Do you have an answer? (Um, probably not).

[sw3759]

for those interested in the SV frame weight...

when i weighed my stock geo 2010 56 road with carbon seatmast topper it came in at 3.99lbs


" i understand the comment about not weighing it, but that defeats the purpose of this thread. we know you, and many others (myself included) don't care about what it weighs relative to how it rides. but just out of curiosity for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to know. maybe 4.5 lbs +/- for frame & fork?"

[christian]

What's carbon steel? Do you mean a steel frame with a carbon fork and stays?

Carbon steels are steel alloys that are not "stainless" (actually rust-resistant, but not rust-proof). Stainless steel alloys have a higher chromium content (10-30%) than carbon steels (<10%), which is what improves their rust resistance.

Basically all bicycle tubing, other than Reynolds 953, Columbus XCR and Metax and the KVA tubing, is made from carbon steel alloys.

[christian]

But still haven't gotten an answer.. Does anyone1 ride a stainless around a 50cm know the frame or frame/fork weight? sry I couldn't figure out the 2.4% of weight differance to carbon steel.

A 50cm carbon steel frame will weigh somewhere around 1700g. In this examples, and assuming same construction, the identical stainless frame would weigh 1740g.

[dd74]

Carbon steels are steel alloys that are not "stainless" (actually rust-resistant, but not rust-proof). Stainless steel alloys have a higher chromium content (10-30%) than carbon steels (<10%), which is what improves their rust resistance.

Basically all bicycle tubing, other than Reynolds 953, Columbus XCR and Metax and the KVA tubing, is made from carbon steel alloys.
Okay. Thanks, Christian.