Running question?

[OnceFast]

My daughter wants me to run a 5K race with her and I'd like to keep up or even beat her if possible. I'd like to train for this race on my Computrainer as I hate running. The treadmill at the gym indicates 266 watts gives me a 7:00 minute pace at my weight. If I can average 266 for 22 minutes on my trainer will that equate to 7:00 minute miles on the road(flat course)? I'm a little skeptical as my last running race was a 5 miler 8 years ago in 36 minutes. I felt like I was going to die and I was riding a lot faster then.

[manet]

pitch the treadmill at least to 1% to get any sort of road feel.

[Fixed]

bro I'm just a dumb bike mess but i.m.h.o. if you want to run you got to run.cheers :beer:

[manet]

doing intervals on a treadmill is tough, second only to squeezing out a baby.

[saab2000]

Fixed is right. I just got back from a 4 mile run. I am making myself do it and am inspired by Laurent Jalabert's marathon performance.

There is no substitute for running if you want to run. And the treadmill is not nearly as good as running outdoors IMHO.

[Cadence230]

If you want to beat her just use a belt. :)

[sirroada]

Run Forest, run. If you want to get faster on a bike...pedal harder. If you want to run faster down the road, run faster down the road.

[Too Tall]

OF - Cycling HRs and running HRs are different as are watts. If you are looking for comparative HRs and Watts? If I understand correctly, you want to use CT to approximate the watts you see on the treadmill and train to sustain that or better for 20+ mins correct? Yeah I can figure this out, it's easy now that I think about it some. Give me you Avg. HR. for a very hard treadmill session lasting 30 mins. and for CT need avg HR and watts for the last 30 mins. of Mogul Bismark done HARD!!!...I'll do the math for you.

PS - You might want to start stretching your achilles, calves, soleus, hamstrings DAILY.

[Kevan]

and hit the track. No tread mill is going to prepare you completely for tarmac and a good track makes for an excellent transition.

Did I ever tell you how much I hate running?

[Sandy]

I know someone that you certainly don't hate. :)


:) Someone Sandy :)

[67-59]

If you want to run faster down the road, run faster down the road.

True.

[Dr. Doofus]

take away her running shoes

then

tell your daughter to ride a dang bike


(in political philosophy, this would be called positive freedom)

[Grant McLean]

You don't necessarily have to run on the road.

Find some mountainbike trails near where you live,
and run on the dirt. It's easier on the joints, and
more interesting than pounding along in a straight line.

G

[Ken Lehner]

My daughter wants me to run a 5K race with her and I'd like to keep up or even beat her if possible. I'd like to train for this race on my Computrainer as I hate running. The treadmill at the gym indicates 266 watts gives me a 7:00 minute pace at my weight. If I can average 266 for 22 minutes on my trainer will that equate to 7:00 minute miles on the road(flat course)? I'm a little skeptical as my last running race was a 5 miler 8 years ago in 36 minutes. I felt like I was going to die and I was riding a lot faster then.

(I'm a triathlete/duathlete)

Cycling training as preparation for a running race is fine, if you don't mind the risk of injury, probably blowing up as you'll have no idea about pace, and not being able to walk for about a week after the race. Cycling is (entirely?) concentric muscle contractions, while running has a major eccentric muscle contraction component. You have to adapt. Your cardiovascular system isn't the issue: it is the use of different muscles or range of motion and concentric/eccentric that'll kill you.

Be wary of running on trails, as a turned ankle will put a damper on your training in a big way.

My advice, which you won't like: run as frequently as possible. You don't have to go far (just a couple of miles at first), and you don't have to go fast. Running on a track is good advice, as you can monitor and learn your pacing as you go, and the surface is softer than the road. I'd even suggest riding (spinning) a bit before you run to ensure that your muscles are warmed up, then stretch easy, then run.

[Grant McLean]

Ken,

Do you really think the risk of a "turned ankle" on a trail is any greater than getting plantar fascitis, Iliotibial Band Syndrome, or medial tibial stress syndrome? These are injuires that cyclists commonly get these from running. A cyclist (especially one with any mountain biking experience) should be able to trot around on a single track trail without being frightened. Your experience may differ, but i've run on trails in the winter months for the last 10 years, and never had a "turned ankle". In fact, my months of trail running remain injury free, yet i've had PF, IT and shin splints after just a few weeks on running on the sidewalks. Maybe it's just my good luck?

G

[Ken Lehner]

Ken,

Do you really think the risk of a "turned ankle" on a trail is any greater than getting plantar fascitis, Iliotibial Band Syndrome, or medial tibial stress syndrome? These are injuires that cyclists commonly get these from running. A cyclist (especially one with any mountain biking experience) should be able to trot around on a single track trail without being frightened. Your experience may differ, but i've run on trails in the winter months for the last 10 years, and never had a "turned ankle". In fact, my months of trail running remain injury free, yet i've had PF, IT and shin splints after just a few weeks on running on the sidewalks. Maybe it's just my good luck?

G

I have done a lot of mountain biking, but that won't help when you plant your foot on the edge of a hidden root and it turns. Even my 20 years of soccer didn't help me a couple of springs ago, when I was ~2 miles from home and tore ligaments in my ankle doing just that. On the other hand, I've been running on the road for nearly 30 years, and I've never had any of the problems you cite. Go figure.

[OldDog]

What's the best remedy for shine splints. Seems no matter how much stretching I do, I cannot get past them after a few miles.

[BigDaddySmooth]

There is no substitute for running if you want to run. And the treadmill is not nearly as good as running outdoors IMHO.[/QUOTE]

A couple of years ago, the Air Force changed our PT test, it used to be a sub-maximal ergo test, now it is a 1.5 mile run. It is more convenient for me to run on the treadmill because: 1) it does not give me shin splints due to less braking action and 2) I know how far and at what pace I've run, plus I can take 1 minute off and walk 4 mph on a 10% grade to break things up. By setting the incline at 1%, you've offset the moving belt. For the last 2 years, I ran 1.5 miles on the treadmill a week before my actual outside 1.5 mile run. In both cases, my time was the same indoors vs. outdoors.

I do not believe riding your computrainer at 266W will also allow you to run at 8.5 MPH for 3.1 miles. To run you need to run. If it were me, I'd run 2 days per week on the TM and 1 day a week outside and give yourself a few months to develop the biomechanics of running (it has taken me 2 years to feel good while running). Also, 8.5 MPH is a pretty good clip for a non-runner so don't do too much too soon or you will injury yourself.

Finally, your goal might be a bit optimistic. You are 8 years older and you want to maintain the sme pace, eventhough the run is shorter. That may be more than your body is able to do. My 1.5 mile time (compared to when I was 25 in the Navy, 18 years ago) has slowed 1 minute, despite the fact I run more now (I ran 2x/year while in the USN as that was the frequency of the PT test) and w/interval-type sessions. You get old and you lose speed.

[Ken Lehner]

What's the best remedy for shine splints. Seems no matter how much stretching I do, I cannot get past them after a few miles.

When I was a wee lad, I had heard that strengthening the muscles in the front of the shin was key to avoiding shin splints. Take a towel, and make a loop through a 25lb weight. Sit on the edge of a table, or somewhere high enough so that when your thigh is parallel to the ground and your calf is perpendicular to the ground and the towel is looped over your foot, the weight is off the ground. Raise your toes, a couple of sets of 10 each leg. That, or do lots of breaststroke kick.

[Ken Lehner]

There is no substitute for running if you want to run. And the treadmill is not nearly as good as running outdoors IMHO.

By setting the incline at 1%, you've offset the moving belt. [/QUOTE]

Not sure what that means, but an incline of .5-1% would offset the lack of air resistance on the treadmill, and seems to be th standard for equalizing treadmill and outdoor running.

[Too Tall]

haha, this is great. OnceFast, my sense was you wanted to pull this event out of your a$$ so to speak and damn the torpedos? Anyway you have some running experience and know the consequences....of the inevitable bragging that will go on at holiday time whomeve wins ;)

Shin Splints? Woo Woo, by far and away the MOST painful thing to remedy as a massage therapist...don't get em'. Breaking the adhesions is pure torture for you...it makes my thumbs ache. Use "The Stick" (the orig. model with blue handles) and work the soleus. Daily calf, achilles stretching is a must and lots of ice if you are symptomatic.

[zap]

Every few years I'll do a bit of running during the winter months. I used to be a decent runner 2 decades ago. Now, I'm a half decent cyclist, but running, ha, most people will beat the crap out of me on a run.

Unless you have adapted to running, you cannot compare cycling effort with your running effort. So toss that comparison in the bin. To prevent injury, take your time and jog first then run. Massage and stretch. Track workouts can do some harm if you keep circling in the same direction.

Olddog, shin splints are tough. Weird muscle assembly too. You can try planting the front of your foot rather than striking your heel and rolling. Takes the stress away from the shin. Adds more to the back side so be careful.

[OldDog]

TT/Zap - thanks.

OF - Sorry - I don't mean to steal your thread. But great info from the gazelle's in the group!

[saab2000]

Sounds dumb but it works.....

fixing shin splints = picking up marbles with your toes. When I ran track back in high school one of our coaches told me to try this. It worked for me.

[OnceFast]

Thanks everyone for all the advice, most of which I'll ignore because I really do hate to run - I thought cyclists would understand this. Too Tall, my last Coors I averaged 252 watts but I don't use a HR monitor as I get atrial flutter and that screws up the average. So that's probably not enough info for you, but I appreciate your offer. Maybe I'll be lucky and it will rain.

[Fixed]

bro let her win and enjoy it i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[Grant McLean]

I have done a lot of mountain biking, but that won't help when you plant your foot on the edge of a hidden root and it turns. Even my 20 years of soccer didn't help me a couple of springs ago, when I was ~2 miles from home and tore ligaments in my ankle doing just that. On the other hand, I've been running on the road for nearly 30 years, and I've never had any of the problems you cite. Go figure.

Ken,
Since you trumped my 10 years of running with your 30, so i guess you are right, and i'm wrong... Don't ever go jogging on dirt there people!! It's dangerous!! Keep to the sidewalks, and leave the nature trails to me!

g

[manet]

this dude spent quite a few miles on the treadmill:
http://www.aimhighrunning.com/billrodgers.jpg

2 of my friends (ya' i know...) run several of their workouts on treadmills. one almost exclusively on the elliptical trainer. both are sub
2:42 marathoners. oh, and unlike boston bill, the one friend never runs a
'long' session farther than 10.5 miles in prep..

treadmills can be quite helpful if a soft surface is necessary to keep
you running.

but hey i ain't no expert, the fastest i've ever been was the time i ran
the vermont city relay marathon. i was the slow leg on a 5 man team,
that finished 4th, in 2:29:56. it was a slow year, usually the team does
a 2:24 n'change.

[saab2000]

I would think running a marathon would be pretty cool. I like running off road when I can, but it is not always practical. about 18 months ago I severely twisted my ankle running across a parking lot and stepped on a stone. So I guess ankle twists can happen anywhere.

I am not a huge fan of running, but at this time of year my riding is severely curtailed. Running is practically all I can do. When I am flying I usually try to get out for a run of some length. I am up to 4 miles now and would like to increase it to 6 or 7.

[Grant McLean]

I am not a huge fan of running, but at this time of year my riding is severely curtailed. Running is practically all I can do. When I am flying I usually try to get out for a run of some length. I am up to 4 miles now and would like to increase it to 6 or 7.

Hi Saab2000,
That's exactly why I started running in the winter. It's easy to get a short run in, even when it's dark, cold, or wet. I found great benefits to my cycling come spring time by doing even 4-5 mile runs a few times a week. Running burns a lot of calories, so it's a good way to manage your weight in the cycling off-season. I even felt it was fun to learn a new actiivty, and try hard not to suck too bad at it...which after a few years, finally started to come around. Now I actually liike it, and look forward to fall, instead of dreading the annual cycle of getting fit through the summer, and giving it all back over the winter, and starting all over again come spring!

Grant

[saab2000]

Grant,

I have good days and bad days running. Well, any time I can run is never really a bad thing. But there are other days I feel sort of good (fast). Well, never fast, but some days feel like I am doing more than just shuffling along.

It is certainly possible for me to imagine liking it. It does indeed create a sort of "runner's high", just like a good ride will do. I definitely feel good about myself after running since I have can't really ride much now. I tried to ride today, but it was dangerously windy here in Wisconsin. But I did get a 4-mile run in, though running upwind was not much fun.

[Dekonick]

Running...

I hate running.

In the academy I remember seriously asking myself if it was worth it...the run was pure torture to me. Every day for 16 weeks...man that sucked.

Shin splints...seems no matter what I do, no matter what shoe I buy, no matter where I run I get S.S.

If there is actually a way to prevent them,I can see how running could actually be fun...but as it stands my shin's tell me to run as little as possible :D

[Grant McLean]

hi saab2000,

I'm in Toronto, so I think we get the same weather as you, (usually about a day later!) I feel exactly the same as you: great days, and bad days, almost nothing in between! I'm not sure why that is, because on the bike, i feel much more consistant, never too good or too bad. Running is different that way.
Another great thing about running for part of the year is that you make progress really quickly. After just a few weeks, you can have a significant improvement, and that's very motivating to keep it going. I find the riding legs come much more slowly, takes a lot more base miles to feel strong.


Grant
(as always: your milage may vary!)

[saab2000]

Grant,

I was in Canada (Ottawa) just the other day. Winter is coming......... I went for a jog on Sunday morning and went through the district with all the embassies and consulates. Seemed pretty nice running along the river there.

Have fun!

[Grant McLean]

Hey, that's cool. Ottawa is a real haven for outdoor enthusiasts. Summer and winter, there are tons of people who are active in many sports. Some winter i'd like to ice skate on the Rideu Canal.

http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/skateway/index_e.asp?bhcp=1

Lots of Americans never visit Canada, even though we're just next door!

Grant

[saab2000]

You're right about the lack of visits by Americans. I get to Canada pretty frequently. I know it is a stereotype, but I continue to be astonished at how seriously Canadians take their hockey!!!

I have flown into Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Winnipeg and we go to Edmonton also, but I have not been there. When we started going there I decided that I better at least know who the Prime Minister is so that I would not be completely ignorant about our neighbors. At least I know that now!!

The other thing I have learned is that their is a fair amount of "talent" in Canada!!!! In Winnipeg we went to a restaurant called Earl's. Doesn't sound like much, but it was terrific! Food was great! And the food servers were even better! Same thing in Ottawa. I was out for a couple beers on Saturday night and OMG was the bartender delicious looking!

Anyway, my fave place in Canada (of the ones I mentioned) is Montreal. I would like to see more of Canada, especially the Canadian Rockies, where I would love to go skiing. Maybe this winter.

The Canadians I have met have been very friendly.

Staying on topic...... it's a good place to run. Canada is big. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

wow, you've been to more places in Canada than many Canadians!! Usually we just go to florida when it's time for a holiday...

Yes, the "talent" in Toronto is pretty good too, especially if you like all different types, it's a very mulitcultural city. But you're right, Montreal has the best talent of all, especially on St. Chatherine street ! Just don't let the wife find out, then you'll really find out how fast you can run!!!

G

[saab2000]

I have no wife. But I do have a girlfriend. Sort of. Anyway, the main reason I have seen so much of Canada is because of my job. I work in the airline business and we travel a lot. I have been to virtually every major (and many less major) city in North America and Europe. Unfortunately, many of them we only get to see for a few hours. But still it is one of the perks!

[Grant McLean]

That's perfect, in Montreal, nobody gets married.

It's strange hearing 50 year old guys talk about
their "girlfriend",when you know have have 3 kids,
and the woman they live with is the same person.

-G

[andy mac]

[QUOTE=OnceFast]My daughter wants me to run a 5K race with her and I'd like to keep up or even beat her if possible.



5km is only what, 3 miles. should take way under 30 mins. get a few runs under the belt to get the muscles going then tough it out. it'll be over before you know it.

cheers,

andy.