Ride Quality-- Frame material or tires?

[spaced_ghost]

I rode a titanium mountain bike last night. Was really excited, hadn't ridden titanium before. aaaaand...womp womp. coulda been aluminum, steel, carbon, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference with those 2.0 knobbies. Just left me thinking, obviously it's a more extreme example than a road bike, but is there really anything to road feel coming from frame material, or is it all tires? obviously frame material will contribute to sprinting stiffness and frame flex out of the saddle, but I'm more convinced than ever that road feel coming from frame material is a myth.

[zap]

snip

but I'm more convinced than ever that road feel coming from frame material is a myth.

It is not.

Carbon composite frames and forks will be more muted over rough textured pavement.

Have to admit, I don't hit potholes often so don't really know if material will make much if any difference, it's a big hit.

Tire's play a big roll as does position.

[timto]

There is a different feel from carbon to ti to steel in my opinion and I'm talking road here with high pressure tires. Assuming other things being equal.

Tires make a really big difference IMHO too. I went from some 23 mm hutchinson fusion 3 tubeless to some Grand Bois Cerf Blue in 26 mm and i really like what it did for smoothness and rolling ease on my kirk.

Of course were talking first world problems here but yeah you can spend lots of $ and fine tune things with materials, diameters, tires , tubes etc. fun fun!

But yeah I think material does have an impact - just less so than tires.

[Ralph]

I ride a wonderful riding custom steel bike on weekends, and my sweat on daily rider is a CAAD 5 Cannondale. Most folks say a CAAD 5 is a harsh riding bike. And the way I've got them set up, my steel bike is as light or lighter than the aluminum bike. (I have heavier sturdy wheels on my daily rider)

However.....on my CAAD 5 I run 700X25 tires (Gatorskins) at 85-95 PSI and on my steel bike I use 700X23 Michelin PR4's at 90-95 PSI. I weigh about 160.

And frankly.....while I much prefer the way my steel bike rides with regard to how it fits me, how I feel I'm sitting as part of it VS on top of it, etc, I can't tell a lot of difference in the harshness of the ride.

So yes.....I think tire suppleness and air pressure are a bigger deal than frame material. And I recognize CF and TI have some very desirable qualities with RE to ride quality.

[bargainguy]

Let's not forget what the wheels are made of and how they're designed.

As an extreme example, traditional metal spoke wheels have a certain amount of give to them. Carbon trispokes don't.

I discovered that the magic in my bikes with metal spoke wheels disappeared when I put the carbon trispokes on. More efficient, sure. More comfortable, absolutely not.

[Mark McM]

Let's not forget what the wheels are made of and how they're designed.

As an extreme example, traditional metal spoke wheels have a certain amount of give to them. Carbon trispokes don't.

Are you sure about that? In this test of various wheel properties (http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm) including radial stiffness, the Specialized Tri-spoke (carbon fiber trispoke wheel) was less stiff than any of the wire spoke wheels - less than half the stiffness of a wheel with 36 metal spokes.

[Mark McM]

Of course, there is some amount of compliance in all the components in the load path between the rider and the road, including the tires, the wheels, frame & fork, seatpost & saddle, handlebars and stem. But the components with the most compliance will have the greatest affect on ride 'comfort'.

So what's the order of most to least compliant? that depends on the particular parts, of course. But this much is obvious - When hitting a sharp edge bump, the tires can deflect far enough to pinch flat a tube between the tread and the rim, which is roughly an inch of deflection. This can happen without damaging the wheels, frame or fork, which we know would get bent or broken if they deflected only a fraction as much. So, we know that the tire is many times more compliant than the frame or fork, and therefore will have a greater affect on ride 'comfort'.

[bargainguy]

Can't speak to this scientific study, only to my experience.

In the two bikes (one steel, one ti) I was experimenting with swapping spesh & hed3 trispokes, one bike had open pros laced to D/A hubs, the other cxp33s laced to ultegra hubs.

Swap in the carbon trispokes and the magic ride of both bikes pretty much evaporated. Swap back the metal spoke wheels and the magic returned.

Now I had always assumed this was because the metal spoke wheels had more flex built in, but if this isn't the case, someone please enlighten me.

[1centaur]

As noted, frame material makes a difference by definition, since vibration moves through different materials differently. How much any individual can feel that is open to question and endless Internet debate.

As for tires vs. material, I think tires have more potential effect than frame material because their pressure differences can be more extreme than functional frame stiffness differences, but the real question is effective difference at the pressure and size the rider has decided is optimal. Same size clinchers, same pressure, same tubes, decent casing, bike vs. bike, the frame material difference might be more noticeable.

But just to get there before somebody else, the whole thing acts as a system; the wheels and tires should be matched to the frame like matching food and wine to get the best trade-offs of performance and comfort. They both have an effect that is somewhat dependent on the other.

[Wilkinson4]

How much frame drop is there when you sit on your bike??? Just kidding, but tires in my mind have more impact on vertical compliance when on the road. Frame material, tube thickness, all that stuff seems to be about efficiency of power delivery first. Lateral stiffness, etc... Not to stay that a frame does not contribute to comfort but tires, wheels, saddle and seapost do too. On a side note, I did just swapped out a Ritchey road stem with a Thomson X4 stem and it did 'seem' to be a little more harsh.

I think the only way to know for sure is maybe Jan needs some double blind testing sans wheels:)

miKE

[esldude]

Saw someone say Ti frames seem to pleasantly hum. The road surface vibrations gets turned into a pleasant feeling. Carbon seems to dampen it out. And AL seems to buzz unpleasantly. I have found on road bikes this is a pretty good description of how it feels though I do believe the basic compliance and such is more mediated by the tires followed by wheels.

Now in MTB, I have experience on steel and AL only. If you go with suspension, I don't think frame material much matters. If you go with hardtails or rigids it does. I have preference for steel over AL though I haven't ridden carbon off road.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Ride quality is almost solely determined by where and who you ride with.

[spaced_ghost]

:hello:

[Gummee]

Ride quality is almost solely determined by where and who you ride with.

...and sometimes even solo!

To the OP: I can tell you from personal experience that my Giant TCR rides completely differently than my Van Dessel Full Tilt Boogie. FTB rides 'softer' overall. Yes, that's with the same wheels on both.

My E5 S-Works frame rode nicer than some of the steel road frames I had at the same time. Smooth. Fast. Comfy. At the same time I had the S-Works, I had a Bontrager Road Light. Ugh. Talk about dead. Really didn't like that bike.

So, yes, lots of what you're feeling are tires and wheels, not all of it is. Especially with 2.0 mtn tires on the bike, 'ride quality' gets muted somewhat.

M

[eddief]

some bikes plain

[nmrt]

Well...my experience was exactly the opposite. Last year I sold my Cannondale CAAD hartail and bought a Black Sheep hardtail. Riding around the bike path, i could not tell the difference. But when I got to the trails (read: rocky, gravely CO front range trails), the difference in ride was night and day. Man...the sheep felt lively, springy, and just alive. Each bump traveled through the seat tube, through the seat post (also Ti) and what I experienced when it reached me evolved to this beautiful springyness that I know now, only Ti can give you. The bike is just prefect for me for soaking up, and deriving energy from those bumps.
I really thought that I would miss my Specialized Epic carbon Full suspension bike (which I had sold as well a few weeks earlier). But I tell you, The Sheep leaves nothing more to be desired.

[jr59]

But just to get there before somebody else, the whole thing acts as a system; the wheels and tires should be matched to the frame like matching food and wine to get the best trade-offs of performance and comfort. They both have an effect that is somewhat dependent on the other.

Agreed, and I'll add a couple of other things.

Frame geo has a lot to do with it as well. But it all has to work together.

[Mikej]

I find a new chain to be extremely pleasant. Maybe you need more time on the ti bike and then switch back and make your judgement.

[zuzu27]

Frame material definitely makes a big difference on a MTB.
But the bottom line is if you're running 2.0 tires....it's gonna be harsh.
I put 2.3 Maxxis tires on my Yo Eddy w/ a rigid fork and it made a massive difference....mostly in terms of traction and trail feel.

-Joey