this may the largest fish since Pantani

[coylifut]

Heras's A sample positive for EPO

[andy mac]

but he really loved his dog too, i don't believe it!!!!

[EdK]

Suffering in the tour, pounding the Vuelta, hmmmmm? Must be the training plan!!

[OilyFish]

Does "non negative" mean positive?
Ridiculous spin.

[andy mac]

another example of those terrible french hounding poor american cyclists... oh wait.

[e-RICHIE]

was it roberto, or his brother roberto?

[Johny]

This shows you again how good Lance is...only 6-year-old B samples are positive.

[e-RICHIE]

no tour of california for roberto

[znfdl]

From Cyclingnews.com

Heras suspended
Spanish rider Roberto Heras, four-time winner of the Vuelta a Espana, has been suspended by his Liberty Seguros team following a non-negative A sample test for EPO from stage 20 of the the 2005 Vuelta.

The team's management company Active Bay suspended Heras on October 27, but did not announce the action while it awaited results of the counter-analysis of the B-sample, the team said in a statement. However, the team said a leak to the press had forced it to reveal the case.

The team said it believes Heras is innocent of the charges, but affirmed its dedication to the fight against doping.

[e-RICHIE]

maybe he thought it was millar time

[Serpico]

maybe he thought it was millar time

:p

[ergott]

maybe he thought it was millar time

LOL!!!

[LegendRider]

Heras' apparent positive for EPO doesn't surprise me, not because I'm a cynic that thinks all pros dope, but because I'm suspicious when riders (or teams) do things they don't seem capable of. For example, how in the world did Marco Pantani (RIP) become a such a good time trialist in the late '90's. I recall a top three or four in the Tour one year. Same with Heras, he rode a time trial in the Vuelta that was FASTER than Indurain, Armstrong, Ullrich, etc. had ever done in any GT. Yes, he had a tail wind, but there is no way that was a natural performance in my opinion. Remember the ridiculous performances by Gewiss in 1994? They won Milan-San Remo, L-B-L, Giro, stages in the Tour (with Ugromov (sp)!!!), Lombardy and, of course, 1-2-3 at Fleche - Wallone.

Of course, some will say the same applies to Armstrong, but I remain agnostic on that one. I still want to believe, but it gets harder and harder...

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<Heras' apparent positive for EPO doesn't surprise me . . . >>

NOTHING in professional cycling surprises me any more. :(

BBDave

[e-RICHIE]

<<Heras' apparent positive for EPO doesn't surprise me . . . >>

NOTHING in professional cycling surprises me any more. :(

BBDave



doh
what if a team raced on lugged steel bicycles?

[harlond]

But Heras was the leader going into that stage, if I recall correctly, and the leader is ALWAYS tested. He might expect to evade testing if he lost the lead, but if he expected to lose the lead, why dope? And if he expected NOT to lose the lead, and thus was sure to be tested, why dope? That's what I don't understand. It just doesn't make sense for him to do it. From the interviews I've read, he doesn't strike me as a moron, so I just don't understand this.

[Fixed]

bro I'm just a dumb bike mess but I think they are all on it. am I wrong? cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

i wonder if it was amgen branded

[loctite]

Heras' apparent positive for EPO doesn't surprise me, not because I'm a cynic that thinks all pros dope, but because I'm suspicious when riders (or teams) do things they don't seem capable of. For example, how in the world did Marco Pantani (RIP) become a such a good time trialist in the late '90's. I recall a top three or four in the Tour one year. Same with Heras, he rode a time trial in the Vuelta that was FASTER than Indurain, Armstrong, Ullrich, etc. had ever done in any GT. Yes, he had a tail wind, but there is no way that was a natural performance in my opinion. Remember the ridiculous performances by Gewiss in 1994? They won Milan-San Remo, L-B-L, Giro, stages in the Tour (with Ugromov (sp)!!!), Lombardy and, of course, 1-2-3 at Fleche - Wallone.

Of course, some will say the same applies to Armstrong, but I remain agnostic on that one. I still want to believe, but it gets harder and harder...

Your not a cynic, you just accept reality, belive me they ALL dope. So the playing field is once again level, or perhaps it depends on who has the best doctor?

[loctite]

bro I'm just a dumb bike mess but I think they are all on it. am I wrong? cheers :beer:

Fixed, once again, your simple one liner is SOOO TRUE. Cheers Bro! :beer:

[bluesea]

But Heras was the leader going into that stage, if I recall correctly, and the leader is ALWAYS tested. He might expect to evade testing if he lost the lead, but if he expected to lose the lead, why dope? And if he expected NOT to lose the lead, and thus was sure to be tested, why dope? That's what I don't understand. It just doesn't make sense for him to do it. From the interviews I've read, he doesn't strike me as a moron, so I just don't understand this.

The answer is right in front of you. In fact, you brushed it away a bit while you were fumbling in the dark.

[Argos]

We should all be sad that this is happening to our sport. Kids look up to these guys same way little kids used to look up to Mark Mcguire.

I remember being in Junior High when he started in the summer of 86 and I still remember the poster of him and Conseco, with Bats over their shoulders, looking tough. I remember Baseball being innocent like that. I saw him in the fall of '98 in Shea Stadium where he hit some of his record setting home runs and how happy everyone was to see every at bat. Everyone. The New York Fans, too. It was that pure, lost in the moment joy that happens when you are young, under 10, and your dad or your grandpa bring you to see a ball game and buy you the overpriced crappy food and talk like guys and you can smell the uniforms in the air and the fresh cut grass and everythings perfect.

Now we know it's all a lie because we are adults and people have to F*ck sh*t up. A$$holes.

I'm done for a while.

Later.

[weiwentg]

Same with Heras, he rode a time trial in the Vuelta that was FASTER than Indurain, Armstrong, Ullrich, etc. had ever done in any GT. Yes, he had a tail wind, but there is no way that was a natural performance in my opinion.

I recall there was some question as to whether the distance for the course was measured properly. he did beat Menchov in that TT, though.

[e-RICHIE]

We should all be sad that this is happening to our sport....


this has occurred since time immemorial.
you have to enjoy the sport despite this.
otherwise - move on.

[manet]

you have to enjoy the sport despite this.
otherwise - move on.

like silicone @ the go go

[saab2000]

Why is Pantani the poster child for doping when he never tested positive for anything?

[bluesea]

I wonder if he was picking up from J.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Your team already DOES, Dude-Issimo!

Ride lugged steel bikes, that is! . . .

BBDave

[BBB]

I think the reference to Pantani is simply that Pantani is the last Tour GC rider to be 'caught' while in the lead. If Heras' B sample is also positive, he will be stripped of his record breaking 4th Vuelta and more than likely suspended.

However, as for Pantani, while he never recorded a positive test:

(1) he was thrown out of the Giro in '99;

(2) through 97', '98 a climber became a very good time trialist (at the same time as a certain Frenchmen - co-incidence?);

(3) he's been prosecuted several times over drug related offences;

(4) his girlfriend spilled the beans over his (and her own) drug usage; and

(5) he ultimately died of a drug overdose.

[Russ]

bro I'm just a dumb bike mess but I think they are all on it. am I wrong? cheers :beer:

No bro, not all of them.... just the top 20% IMHO.... ;) :no:

[andy mac]

No bro, not all of them.... just the top 20% IMHO.... ;) :no:

and masters riders, high schoolers, disabled athletes, club riders and...

[vaxn8r]

and masters riders, high schoolers, disabled athletes, club riders and...
yep, yep, yep, yep and....

[Kane]

Your not a cynic, you just accept reality, belive me they ALL dope. So the playing field is once again level, or perhaps it depends on who has the best doctor?

Loctite and I traded disagreements recently on a thread, but on this one we are in absolute agreement. Assume they all dope! Postal/Discovery has better docs and better technology. Although the cost of the recombinant DNA stuff (allegedly) (sp?), is so high that only Lance and George appear to have done it. Let's be real. George can not win the toughest climbing stage of a tour without help. (Allegedly!)

Follow the massage therapist or follow the money, the trail is still the same. Postal's budget is probably public record. The details are hidden in budget.

Having said that I think Lance is a great rider and he had a career and his cancer work is inspirational to say the least. His legendary snake work sadly broke up his marriage (allegedly). But, I don't begrudge Mick Jagger and why should we begrudge Lance his dalliance. It shouldn't be a problem. llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

All riders have cheated since the sixties!

[LegendRider]

I recall there was some question as to whether the distance for the course was measured properly. he did beat Menchov in that TT, though.

True. That *may* explain it, but I remain skeptical.

[Andreu]

why would a rider be tested EPO on the penultimate stage of one of the top 3 stage races in Europe? He is either very stupid (not possible given the information I have about him) or he has
taken something unknowingly (possible - but slim chance) or this is a false positive.

I am not debating whether professionals do or not take drugs - this has been debated ad nauseum. It just strikes me as odd that during the race (and the latter part) he is tested positive - don't they have doctors to advise them when to juice up?

A

[loctite]

NOVEMBER 08 - Roberto Heras is denying allegations he took the banned blood booster EPO. Surprised? Innocent untill proven positive? :rolleyes:

[William]

NOVEMBER 08 - Roberto Heras is denying allegations he took the banned blood booster EPO. Surprised? Innocent untill proven positive? :rolleyes:

Was he tested by a French Magazine? :rolleyes:



William ;)

[saab2000]

It is sort of interesting that the big dogs still apparently don't get it.

End of career for Heras.

[e-RICHIE]

It is sort of interesting that the big dogs still apparently don't get it.

little dogs rule.
especially french ones.

[Ken Lehner]

why would a rider be tested EPO on the penultimate stage of one of the top 3 stage races in Europe? He is either very stupid (not possible given the information I have about him) or he has
taken something unknowingly (possible - but slim chance) or this is a false positive.



Or the test is flawed. Positive tests have been conclusively shown to be in error (Google "Rutger Beke" for an example).

[ergott]

My hunch is that all of these riders dope right up to the point of getting caught. Some just get the mix wrong on a given day and flags go up. It's an arms race. Noone is going to stop while the competition is still doing it. There would have to be some sort of arms treaty to re-level the playing field without all the drugs they take. Either that or rename the ProTour "Top Fuel" NHRA style :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

Either that or rename the ProTour "Top Fuel" NHRA style :banana:


how 'bout Amgen Tour of California?

[harlond]

My hunch is that all of these riders dope right up to the point of getting caught. Some just get the mix wrong on a given day and flags go up.
And is there such a point? A point where you're getting enough to realize gains but not enough to test positive? I'm asking because I don't know.

[ergott]

And is there such a point? A point where you're getting enough to realize gains but not enough to test positive? I'm asking because I don't know.

Honestly, I don't know, but the pattern (or lack thereof) in which the positives show up it seems that way.

[Andreu]

Or the test is flawed. Positive tests have been conclusively shown to be in error (Google "Rutger Beke" for an example).
I think your right.
I am actually now working in this area and we are developing kits to test for biochemicals like EPO using antibodies and the test used by the authorities is flawed.
A

[andy mac]

from cyclingnews.com


Jesus Manzano: "The whole tree is rotten"

Former Kelme rider Jesus Manzano, who last year rocked Spanish cycling with allegations of systematic doping within Kelme, has waded into the controversy around Roberto Heras' non-negative A sample test. Manzano told AS that he was not surprised by Heras' test result.

"It doesn't surprise me that Roberto is positive," said Manzano, " not him or any other. What seems obvious to me is that Roberto is not the only one."

For Manzano, the accusation against Heras comes as a vindication. "They said I was just one rotten apple, but I believe the entire tree is rotten. It's not just Roberto. The others need to speak!"

Manzano singled out the doctors that help prepare riders for races for particularly scathing criticism.

"It is all about money," he said. "The ones getting rich are the doctors, not the riders. Heras has earned a good salary, but most of us don't earn anything like that. But I have seen a doctor ask six million pesetas for his services [about US$40,000]. For aspirins and mineral supplements you charge six million?"

While at Kelme, Manzano rode with both Heras and Aitor Gonzalez, who also turned in a positive test at this year's Vuelta. But he was not surprised that two Vuelta winners had returned positive tests. "Do you think you win the Vuelta on chocolate and bread?" said Manzano.

[Dr. Doofus]

And is there such a point? A point where you're getting enough to realize gains but not enough to test positive? I'm asking because I don't know.

its called microdosing

several very small hits of EPO/ARANESP/Havoline over a course of a few days (even in a race), rather than the old full course three weeks prior to the event...the small doses don't trip up the tests unless you f it up, but give you the same performance gains

this, by the way, was communicated to doof by a 40-something pal of his from his phd days, who is now a cat 1 rider and corporate lawyer (who can afford the dope, and presumably could wrangle his way out of a positive at a USCF event)

(doof now thinks this guy is a megaloser)

[Ti Designs]

Testing and usage timing questions aside, there is a reason for the whole drug usage scam - the pressure to win. It's the same thing that fuels the need for club riders to get carbon wheels. Where is the line? What expense is too great for the chance of being on top? Look at Roberto and Tyler, they both rode as team riders where they could ride their legs off for their team leader, blow up, finish minutes down - and that's OK because they weren't the team leader, they were doing their jobs. Move it forward a few years, both were team leaders, the pressure was on to post consistant results, and both are now suspended for drug use. Was it the individual or the team? In Miller's case I think it was his own doing, he wanted the worlds title for himself. In cases like Tyler and Roberto I'm guessing it's the team. Positive press is good for the sponsors, negative press such as a drug scandal can also be spun as positive. The sponsors suspend the riders, fire the doctors and claim to be against drug use in the sport. It's a business, riders are expendable.

As the pro ranks are a very small percentage of the population, I don't much care what happens to them. The message they send is making it's mark on the rest of the cycling world. This forum is a good example of how people are looking for the performance edge - lot's of club level riders with carbon aero wheels. It's an edge over the next guy, and it's a calculated expense. What happens when there is no more edge to be purchased at the bike shop? What happens when people start to figure out that $200 worth of drugs will boost performance better than $2000 wheels? What happens when people figure out that making it to the top and getting busted is better than never making it at all?

One of the women I coach on the Harvard team has Roberto's autograph on her helmet from when the Liberty team came to Wheelworks. Only in her second season she's become an exelent climber, and Roberto was her cycling hero. She asked him about how he climbs and what he thinks about while climbing, his response was simply that he does if for the love of it. Clearly, "the love of it" doesn't pay the bills...

[fstrthnu]

IMHO the Doofus is spot on. It is not like you take a big dose or a regular size dose for that matter before an important stage or one day event. The effects of EPO don't take their course for 10-14 days... Aranesp probably 3-5.... IF Heras used EPO, he was microdosing (been in practice by pro riders since the EPO test). One way or another his doctor made a mistake. IMHO its all KOP.
keeping it real in the 617

[saab2000]

I know a guy in Switzerland who twice tested positive. I don't know what for, but he was a pretty shady rider. He opened up to me about some of his dabblings, enough to make me realise that this stuff works. He spent a lot of time researching blood and oxygen and all those things. He knows a lot about physiology for a guy who in his other life is a machine mechanic.

The wierd thing about this is that this guy is a friend of mine and his actions don't change that. I don't approve of what he does, but I am ambivelant about condemning him too. He is a human being with all the failings that entails.

Cycling, like any sport, is full of humans. I spent a long time in Switzerland and they were on the forefront of doping. A lot of pharmaceutical companies are there and some of this stuff was readily available.

What has always surprised me was how the 'big dogs' allowed themselves to get caught. Zuelle, Camenzind, Dufaux, etc. Even Rominger has all but fessed up.

Enjoy cycling for the competition. But have no illusions about anything. Too bad, but its true.

For a few years I looked at cycling with glossy eyes. I still love it and watch every big race I can, but I will never idolize a cyclist again, because they are just normal guys. Once you know some 'name' riders personally your whole outlook on this will all change.

Just my $.02

[bostondrunk]

but I will never idolize a cyclist again, because they are just normal guys.

Just my $.02

Not true. Us 'normal' folks on the forum could take all the EPO we wanted, and we would never be able to touch the abilities of the pro riders.

[jerk]

IMHO the Doofus is spot on. It is not like you take a big dose or a regular size dose for that matter before an important stage or one day event. The effects of EPO don't take their course for 10-14 days... Aranesp probably 3-5.... IF Heras used EPO, he was microdosing (been in practice by pro riders since the EPO test). One way or another his doctor made a mistake. IMHO its all KOP.
keeping it real in the 617

imho it's mp. better living through chemistry.

jerk

[saab2000]

Not true. Us 'normal' folks on the forum could take all the EPO we wanted, and we would never be able to touch the abilities of the pro riders.

Incorrect. I have heard stories first hand of the stunning efficiency of EPO. The stuff works.

[jerk]

Incorrect. I have heard stories first hand of the stunning efficiency of EPO. The stuff works.

sure does. just make sure you have a good alarm clock.

jerk

[loctite]

Not true. Us 'normal' folks on the forum could take all the EPO we wanted, and we would never be able to touch the abilities of the pro riders.


I gotta disagree, i have seen guys go from getting droped in the first lap to 50k solo breakaway wins from EPO.

[97CSI]

but he really loved his dog too, i don't believe it!!!!Yep.....dog lover's :butt: . We've been over this before.

[Fixed]

I gotta disagree, i have seen guys go from getting droped in the first lap to 50k solo breakaway wins from EPO. bro I agree but you still gota train and you can do it at higher intenesity and you recover faster if you don't have a heart attack in your sleep.cheers :beer:

[Fixed]

bro I bet most of your music idols used dope does that make their art less relevant ? i.m.h.o. no cheers :beer:

[Ginger]

Music artists, poets, writers, painters...throughout time drug use to increase "creativity" was accepted.

Does it make their work less relevant? Sometimes yes.

[Lifelover]

bro I bet most of your music idols used dope does that make their art less relevant ? i.m.h.o. no cheers :beer:

I don't think the average fan really cares if athletes dope.

[slowgoing]

In the US, I think they care if baseball players, football players and track athletes dope. I don't think they care if cyclists dope. Same with long distance cross country skiers from Scandanavia.

[e-RICHIE]

they shoot horses, don't they?

[Johny]

they shoot horses, don't they?

And beat them again and again.

[bcm119]

Music artists, poets, writers, painters...throughout time drug use to increase "creativity" was accepted.

Does it make their work less relevant? Sometimes yes.

Maybe sometimes, but in general, I'd say no. Drugs don't give you new and magical powers, they just enhance whats already there. In sports, thats cheating, but in art, thats part of the game. Think of writers- some are inspired by travel, some by tragedy, some by depression, some by drugs. It all promotes thinking and creativity.


As for the original topic, I agree that EPO is prevalent right down to the local level.

[e-RICHIE]

And beat them again and again.


the movie.
i meant the movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065088/
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=49427
etc.


whenever this drugs/sport/entertainment/arts thingee
comes up, i refer to this film. you want to end drug
use, stop buying the zines, stop watching the oln
broadcasts, and stop supporting any firm sponsoring
the pros that irk you. otherwise, accept it and
enjoy it for what it is.
oh - and see the film.

[dirtdigger88]

Music artists, poets, writers, painters...throughout time drug use to increase "creativity" was accepted.

Does it make their work less relevant? Sometimes yes.


Aerosmith while on drugs vs Aerosmith after

nuff said I think

Jason

[Lifelover]

In the US, I think they care if baseball players, football players and track athletes dope.

The media likes to make a story out of it but the average fan does not give it much thought.

[JohnS]

Aerosmith while on drugs vs Aerosmith after

nuff said I think

Jason
How about Alice Cooper? He dropped like a stone.

[William]

Aerosmith while on drugs vs Aerosmith after

nuff said I think

Jason


Rapid Fire, Cotton Candy?



William ;)

[sw3759]

say it ain't so Roberto.....b sample positive... :no:

[William]

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[soulspinner]

I still dont understand why he would dope when he had such a big lead. If he took EPO early on it would be more logical but the guy had over a four minute lead! Anyone....Beuler?

[slowgoing]

they shoot horses, don't they? Yes. Dogs eat them too.

[slowgoing]

whenever this drugs/sport/entertainment/arts thingee
comes up, i refer to this film. you want to end drug
use, stop buying the zines, stop watching the oln
broadcasts, and stop supporting any firm sponsoring
the pros that irk you. otherwise, accept it and
enjoy it for what it is.
oh - and see the film.

no one cares if entertainers dope. It's entertainment, not competition. Plus dope allows them to die young and become legends.

[shinomaster]

maybe he thought it was millar time


It's always miller time....

Shino Miller

[shinomaster]

Not true. Us 'normal' folks on the forum could take all the EPO we wanted, and we would never be able to touch the abilities of the pro riders.


True, but a lapped pro in a cross race who gets pulled off the course looks no better or more professional that I do......Ok...He probably doesn't crash as much...