OT: Advice solicited on Corporate whoa's

[slidey]

As Spring approaches, I look forward to the prospect of graduation. In keeping with the tradition of the times, I'm also now actively interviewing for full time opportunities.

I recently did so with a techie startup, and heard back from them this past Friday that although the feedback on my interviews was great, they'd like to make an offer of an internship. Their reasons: Since you're a local candidate, we'd like to start you off soon on such a program and within a maximum period of 3 months, based on performance, we'll make a FT offer to you.

Naturally, I asked the rate of conversion and they said that they expect me to perform well and if I did deliver, then it'd be very easy.

Here's my dilemma though: The intern offer they made is slightly more than half of what I get paid to stay in school. Makes it an offer I'm almost sure to reject! I mean, I've got principles and I'll make certain monetary compromises to do some cool work, but I'm not desperate enough to throw my skills for cheap.

My Questions: Being a tech startup (5 years old, good funding, and on an expansion spree) why would someone do this? I mean, I'm perfectly fine in being rejected outright from a position, but I don't like the discrepancy in being adjudged suitable but then being treated in a backhanded manner, especially not with a future employer. How do I handle this situation? I want a FT, or a FT offer with a performance based component at the start of my career, say 3 months, etc...but, I want surety. How do I communicate this without stepping over the line? Also, how do I know if they're genuine about considering me for a FT and not just getting work done for cheap now?

My outlook of the job: I believe in the mission of the company, and would definitely pick this over any other job I'm currently interviewing for (3 more, all in interim stages...I'm not holding my breath though), but at the same time I'm not willing to undersell myself to be only used by someone as cheap labour for a short period, to be discarded at the end of the period.

[rbtmcardle]

Slidey
I have no experience in tech, in fact I never even went to school, however through many years of hard work and good breaks (though i believe we create our circumstances) I have had an incredibly satisfying and rewarding career in my field.

For me, it comes down to the relationship/gut feeling about senior management and your contact with them. I wouldn't hesitate to take a position like you described IF, there was direct contact and commitment from sr management, it isn't easy to find a company that you believe in and an opportunity to get in early. However, saying all that, if you are reporting to just another middle level manager who has no real authority, I'd be worried I was just being used.

Not sure it helps any but figured I'd throw my thoughts out there.

bob

[Pete Mckeon]

an interim or a independent contractor is usually not an employee,.

I am assuming it is a USA position so as a contractor or "consultant" you are responsible for filing taxes (quarterly), and also benefits such as medical.

At the end of three months "what do they decide?" A permanent offer at an agreeable salary and benefit or do they just continue with interim?

Have the understanding in writing. As to salary and options/benefits, it depends on the industry and company as to the "norm"


MIcrosoft and some other large companies were using contractors and independents in the past (I do not know if they are now) It saves a company costs in this form but in my opinion it is not a way I would accept for a job past the three months.

[Louis]

One option, if you're confident of finding something else, is to tell them that you like the company, but you're really looking for a full-time job. If they offer that at a reasonable salary you'll gladly accept. Thanks, but no thanks for the internship. You're willing to make a commitment to them, but they too need to make a commitment to you.

[eddief]

If yes, just keep going to school until you get opportunity you want. On the other hand, they made you an offer...of a paid internship with hi potential for conversion to full time. What do you have to lose? If something better comes along while interning, take whatever suits you best. Corporations are dogs. Take what you can get, be fair...to yourself. The split second they don't want you they will put you on the street without a second thought. I know. I have been there. And now I help those who have been cast away.

By the way, an internship is a great time to check out the company and see if what you think is true is true.

[AngryScientist]

i have to agree with bob and PETE.

a lot comes down to your gut feeling unfortunately. also, are the key players, the decision makers, the people who you are dealing with now? do they seem genuine?

too often in corporate america now, there is no real responsibility, no accountability.

"we would love to offer you a FT position but 'THEY' arent going to let us go for it" - do you have contact with the "THEY" in the equation? IMO, this culture makes it easy to screw people with no remorse. the "THEY" mentality, it's no ones fault, etc.

unfortunately the days of taking care of a company's interests, and them taking care of you are long gone.

it's a tough situation, i honestly wish you luck in making your decision and the outcome. keep us posted.

[rnhood]

Why would someone do this? My guess is that they don't know you are being paid to be in school. I assume you are in graduate school with some arrangement that they are paying you?

Back when I was in school, we had to pay the bill. I don't remember anyone being paid unless it was some post graduate arrangement.

My company (large corporation) tries to use interns and coops as a means of filtering out the better performers. Or the ones who can more rapidly develop the skill sets and behaviors that we desire. We also use contractors for a few months to evaluate them for openings.

If you're coming out of grad school, I would sit tight and keep looking. No reason to be in a hurry, and with a good education you will get a job. Just be thankful you have the education.

[eddief]

but in a big way the economy is still sucking. High unemployment, lots of grads flipping hamburgers. It is a buyer's market and why would they take a chance if they can check you out during an internship? A foot in the door now might be the best, only? way to make it happen in 2013. Your idealism is laudable. I'm not sure it is realistic. The marketplace will let you know.

[bargainguy]

I used to work as a trainer at a health care firm where we regularly got interns from the local colleges. It is an excellent way to determine whether someone has what it takes before any offer of employment is made.

I can tell you from my experience that if I saw someone exceptional, I'd make every push to get that employee on board. Nine times out of ten, that employee would be a tremendous asset to the company. On the odd occasion, it didn't work out because of external factors - spouse's job was relocated and employee had to follow, that sort of thing. Usually it wasn't the employee themselves, as we had already vetted them.

[rwsaunders]

How many employees, ownership, family members involved, annual sales, market positon, debt/equity, profit, future projections, etc.? If it's a private corporation then the numbers that will be presented to you are cloudy at best. Ask them to define performance and to attach a copy of the definition to your offer. Don't take it personal, but they're just trying to invest the least amount of capital in you, with the opportunity to either cut their loss early, or reap a decent return.

I'm with Eddie...take the best offer that you can find, as statistics for someone of your age indicate that you'll work somewhere on average for four years...max. If you think that this firm has some bright individuals, especially those in a position to be mentoring you, that's worth something.

Best of luck.

[markie]

I work in a biology field. But the company I work for just hired a bunch of interns. (I think they wanted to hire people quickly and so did not want to have to do a lot of searching for the right person in the knowledge they were not tied to the temps).

I think you have to look at the pros/cons.

Personally I do not see a lot of cons. But then I would take any old job despite of the mission if it paid more. I guess I might be jaded. It is always great to get some real world experience, that will help a lot in finding another job. I would take the internship unless a real job came along. Keep looking for jobs during your internship. Hope you get an offer to use as leverage.

[rugbysecondrow]

As Spring approaches, I look forward to the prospect of graduation. In keeping with the tradition of the times, I'm also now actively interviewing for full time opportunities.

I recently did so with a techie startup, and heard back from them this past Friday that although the feedback on my interviews was great, they'd like to make an offer of an internship. Their reasons: Since you're a local candidate, we'd like to start you off soon on such a program and within a maximum period of 3 months, based on performance, we'll make a FT offer to you.

Naturally, I asked the rate of conversion and they said that they expect me to perform well and if I did deliver, then it'd be very easy.

Here's my dilemma though: The intern offer they made is slightly more than half of what I get paid to stay in school. Makes it an offer I'm almost sure to reject! I mean, I've got principles and I'll make certain monetary compromises to do some cool work, but I'm not desperate enough to throw my skills for cheap.

My Questions: Being a tech startup (5 years old, good funding, and on an expansion spree) why would someone do this? I mean, I'm perfectly fine in being rejected outright from a position, but I don't like the discrepancy in being adjudged suitable but then being treated in a backhanded manner, especially not with a future employer. How do I handle this situation? I want a FT, or a FT offer with a performance based component at the start of my career, say 3 months, etc...but, I want surety. How do I communicate this without stepping over the line? Also, how do I know if they're genuine about considering me for a FT and not just getting work done for cheap now?

My outlook of the job: I believe in the mission of the company, and would definitely pick this over any other job I'm currently interviewing for (3 more, all in interim stages...I'm not holding my breath though), but at the same time I'm not willing to undersell myself to be only used by someone as cheap labour for a short period, to be discarded at the end of the period.

I don't know your industry, but if I could say something that might sound crappy, but likely needed...slow your roll homey. This firm likely has more to offer you than what you can offer them right now, that is why they can pay you little. You get to learn from them and take that experience forward. What a cool opportunity, but you seem to treat it like an insult. As far as I see it you haven't proved anything yet, so why do you think you deserve anything more than an internship? Frankly, I just don't get the attitude (Rejected, Backhanded, used, discarded, undersell), this firm just offered you a position, for pay, with the chance to convert to full time in your field and doing work you are excited to do and you act like they treated you like ****.

My man, I am not certain if you are new to the workforce, an older guy who has gone back to school or what, but if you take that attitude into the working world, getting a paid internship will be the least of your concerns.

I worked every paid, unpaid internship I could just to get experience working in my field. From what I can tell, you only have one offer at the moment...I wouldn't over play this hand.

Sorry my man, somebody has to say it.

[eddief]

where it could be a graduate's market. Certain fields are booming ie composites, engineering, software, science, healthcare IT. If you are in a profession that is growing then you might be better off waiting for something good to come to you.

composites:

http://www.enve.com/careers.aspx
http://www.zoltek.com/careers/

[FlashUNC]

Your post is a little vague, but if you're talking about leaving school early for this internship, I would steer clear.

That being said, everyone has to start somewhere. My first gig in journalism was in a po-dunk town where my annual income was closer to the national poverty line than the national median income. But you learn all you can, work your butt off, and the rewards will come.

At the end of the day, it comes down the demand in the industry, and your gut feeling on these guys. If they blew off a lot of interns in the past, is there evidence of that online? Former employee complaints? Would make it tough to recruit if that's the case. So if you have a good relationship with them, I'd tend to take their word for it unless you have evidence to the contrary.

But as others have said, everyone's got to start somewhere...

[Louis]

You get to learn from them and take that experience forward.

Perhaps, but how much can you really learn in just three months?

On the other hand, the fact that the "probationary" period is only three months means that if it does not work out, the OP would not be committing a huge amount of time to them.

[markie]

If you are in a profession that is growing then you might be better off waiting for something good to come to you.




But would it hurt to do an internship whilst waiting? In my profession the answer is no as long as you spun it right. (I did an internship and gained a ton of experience, but at the end of it the company did not hire me because they had a hiring freeze). Or something like that. :)

[rugbysecondrow]

Perhaps, but how much can you really learn in just three months?

On the other hand, the fact that the "probationary" period is only three months means that if it does not work out, the OP would not be committing a huge amount of time to them.


I suppose that depends on the individual or the project they have you working on? If it were me, what I would be ask has nothing to do with pay but rather is there a mentoring program? Project opportunities? Face time with CEO/Lead Designers/CFO etc? Stuff like that. The real value is the resume material and the knowledge one gets to take forward, not the actual $$. Good internships will get you the next great job, few of us start out there.

Again, slow your roll, put in your work and BUILD a career.

[fiamme red]

Certain fields are booming ie compositesMr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.
Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?
Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?

[Louis]

http://cinema.cornell.edu/Fall2012/images/Graduate.jpg

[spaced_ghost]

if you are saying you are considering leaving school early for the job, then don't. period.

I hold a dissenting opinion from most of these guys. In NYC and other major cities, in a lot of fields, like design, architecture, etc., the internship with a promise to hire is a scam for cheap labor. i could go on with countless examples from my life and my friends' lives, but i'll refrain. interships aren't what they used to be. read the NYT article about the scourge of internships in this city.

that said, if you are coming straight out of school with no experience, a paid internship may be a real find, and a real opportunity. depends on where you are in school and what part of the tech industry you are going into. i do know a guy who just got hired on in a design job after an internship. on the other hand, i used to work at an architecture firm in brooklyn that had 10 unpaid full time "interns," all of whom were promised potential jobs, none of whom got them.


my advice is be honest with yourself about your experience, skills, and the reputation of your alma mater in the industry you are going into. afterwards, if you think you should be getting a job, don't let someone con you into cheap labor because you think the company is "cool." but if you think you still need experience, and to climb some ladders, do the internship, and work as hard as you can while you're there. talk to career services at your school, talk to other classmates, talk to recent grads, and see if you can't get a better idea of what the current expected/accepted range of trajectories is for your career path, i.e., if most grads are taking internships, and whether they are turning into jobs.

but bottom line, the trust your gut advice is the best advice.

[etu]

I don't know your industry, but if I could say something that might sound crappy, but likely needed...slow your roll homey. This firm likely has more to offer you than what you can offer them right now, that is why they can pay you little. You get to learn from them and take that experience forward. What a cool opportunity, but you seem to treat it like an insult. As far as I see it you haven't proved anything yet, so why do you think you deserve anything more than an internship? Frankly, I just don't get the attitude (Rejected, Backhanded, used, discarded, undersell), this firm just offered you a position, for pay, with the chance to convert to full time in your field and doing work you are excited to do and you act like they treated you like ****.

My man, I am not certain if you are new to the workforce, an older guy who has gone back to school or what, but if you take that attitude into the working world, getting a paid internship will be the least of your concerns.

I worked every paid, unpaid internship I could just to get experience working in my field. From what I can tell, you only have one offer at the moment...I wouldn't over play this hand.

Sorry my man, somebody has to say it.

1+
It's sounds a bit harsh, but it is not.
Your viewpoint may come off as a bit "entitled".

[54ny77]

Ruby's advice about the attitude adjustment rings very true. It's only 3 months, which is a blip in the lifetime career calendar, and if you're as good as you think you are, they'll hire you. Then again, they may toss you by the roadside in a manner of days.

The sense of entitlement today's young grads have boggles my mind. I see it all the time, speaking as someone who has interviewed, hired & worked with plenty from the creme of the crop top schools.

Remember, everyone has to start somewhere and demonstrate their worth TO THEIR EMPLOYER.

[slidey]

Thanks all for chiming in. Here is some more info which I think will help understanding this easier.

Me: Yes, I'm a grad stud and get paid a stipend, will be graduating (hopefully) with 2 MS degrees (Electrical, and Comp Sci), 2 yrs work ex in software development.

Co: Tech start-up founded in 2009, 70 or so people. They have received $6M in funding 2 yrs back, and they seem to be doing well enough to be considering a major expansion (they're basically doubling in size, I know as I've seen as much office space).

Role: Technical Product Mgmt. Its a role that I'm gravitating more towards by personal interest, whereas traditionally my skills are more in line with being offered engg roles.

As for my decision, I was not going to accept it but in the past few hours I spoke to the Dir. of the Prod Mgmt division, who seemed keen on hiring me and that has prompted me to at least look at the offer in a slightly softer light. Whilst there seems to be no change in wages dept, I have a better understanding behind their rationale to give me an intern offer for now...and, given the reasons I don't mind accepting it. As most of you have suggested though, I'm definitely still going to keep on the lookout for other FT positions as well.

Paul: When you get paid X to stay in school, and interview for a FT posn. which traditionally pays 3.5~4X, but am instead offered an intern position that pays X instead, there is a huge gap in terms of expectation which brings up some tough Q's. I wanted answers from a community I trust enough to bother putting these Q's to, I think its fair.
Also, if for some reason you don't consider X (< 4X) to be underselling your skill-set, then hats off to you...but, I'm not that positive a person. I'm with you, that sometimes its about the job and not the money...but when the gap is a huge one, you wonder how much is it really about the job, and how much is it about the employer cheaping out. After all, the next offer will be based off of the present package...so, I don't think a really low package does any employee any good.

[rugbysecondrow]

Sounds like a good direction.

A university stipend, especially if you are required to produce or teach is essentially an internship though, so it is a decision which one has the best prospects. Been there done that with my own university stipend, so I get it. Again though, I am a foot in the door, build the resume, network, add tools to the tool box, kind of guy.

If your skills can earn you 4X, then go for it. Unless you actually have that on the table, then it really isn't a variable suitable for decision making, IMO. Don't make a decision based on an option which hasn't been afforded to you yet.

Best of luck with your path.

Thanks all for chiming in. Here is some more info which I think will help understanding this easier.

Me: Yes, I'm a grad stud and get paid a stipend, will be graduating (hopefully) with 2 MS degrees (Electrical, and Comp Sci), 2 yrs work ex in software development.

Co: Tech start-up founded in 2009, 70 or so people. They have received $6M in funding 2 yrs back, and they seem to be doing well enough to be considering a major expansion (they're basically doubling in size, I know as I've seen as much office space).

Role: Technical Product Mgmt. Its a role that I'm gravitating more towards by personal interest, whereas traditionally my skills are more in line with being offered engg roles.

As for my decision, I was not going to accept it but in the past few hours I spoke to the Dir. of the Prod Mgmt division, who seemed keen on hiring me and that has prompted me to at least look at the offer in a slightly softer light. Whilst there seems to be no change in wages dept, I have a better understanding behind their rationale to give me an intern offer for now...and, given the reasons I don't mind accepting it. As most of you have suggested though, I'm definitely still going to keep on the lookout for other FT positions as well.

Paul: When you get paid X to stay in school, and interview for a FT posn. which traditionally pays 3.5~4X, but am instead offered an intern position that pays X instead, there is a huge gap in terms of expectation which brings up some tough Q's. I wanted answers from a community I trust enough to bother putting these Q's to, I think its fair.
Also, if for some reason you don't consider X (< 4X) to be underselling your skill-set, then hats off to you...but, I'm not that positive a person. I'm with you, that sometimes its about the job and not the money...but when the gap is a huge one, you wonder how much is it really about the job, and how mush is it about the employer cheaping out. After all, the next offer will be based off of the present package...so, I don't think a really low package does any employee any good.

[slidey]

Yup, yup. The 4X is the median going price for my skill-set, but I don't have it personally in my hands yet. Hopefully, that happens soon too.

If your skills can earn you 4X, then go for it. Unless you actually have that on the table, then it really isn't a variable suitable for decision making, IMO. Don't make a decision based on an option which hasn't been afforded to you yet.

Best of luck with your path.

I must say though, I might've come across as overestimating my skills, but nothing is farther from the mark. Its just that sometimes you wonder if companies are making a lowball/dishonest offer to you, just to test your levels of desperation. I'm fine with proving my worth if I know that there'll actually be an earnest review of my performance. I only wanted to get feedback as to the probability of the earnestness of a company's actions based on the forum's collective experience, and on what you've read here.

[oliver1850]

I wouldn't reject the offer on the basis of pay for the 3 month period, it it's a foot in the door of a place that might be good for you. I would attempt to convey (diplomatically) that you expect a full time position at the end of the trial period, with compensation that is appropriate. Hopefully, you get some degree of assurance as to what happens after 3 months. If they are wishy washy (or over the top in their assertions), it might be better to look at Plan B.

I once had a low paying job that was a springboard to a much better position. Just being associated with the operation, and being honest and believable in interviews about why I left, was enough to open other doors.

There's also nothing wrong with starting at the bottom, with a good attitude. My best friend at college started at the lowest position in a medical lab after he graduated. He's been running that lab now for 20 years, and loves his work.

[shovelhd]

Temp to hire is very common in tech business these days, but calling it an internship is new to me. This is what I would do if you are willing to lose this offer. You never know how they are going to react. I would be brutally honest with them. Tell them that it would be a big step down in pay (don't say by how much, as that will set the bar. Always keep them guessing). Ask them what is the hiring salary range for new college grads at your grad level. Ask them to define the performance required in order to fit into that range. Tell them that you are very interested in their offer, but you are also very interested in your future. You are willing to prove yourself to them, but you need more specifics on what things would look like at the end of the internship. If they are vague, get huffy, or speak in tongues, then walk.

Good luck.

[malcolm]

Temp to hire is very common in tech business these days, but calling it an internship is new to me. This is what I would do if you are willing to lose this offer. You never know how they are going to react. I would be brutally honest with them. Tell them that it would be a big step down in pay (don't say by how much, as that will set the bar. Always keep them guessing). Ask them what is the hiring salary range for new college grads at your grad level. Ask them to define the performance required in order to fit into that range. Tell them that you are very interested in their offer, but you are also very interested in your future. You are willing to prove yourself to them, but you need more specifics on what things would look like at the end of the internship. If they are vague, get huffy, or speak in tongues, then walk.

Good luck.

This is good advice with any company. I think rugby provided sound advice, maybe hard to hear but true.

There are certainly companies out there that have a revolving door of interns or whatever you want to call them short term hires with no benefits. Basically work them as long as you can for as little as you can then replace with another. I suspect the companies that do this are fairly few but it happens.
It's on you to find out. I suspect they just want you to be vested and share some of the risk of coming on board. Be frank but polite and fair, talk to some folks that completed an internship and got a full time position and if you can track them down find someone that has recently left.
It's a monumental pain to invest time and resources into someone only to have the immediately abandon ship and they may want to make sure you are both on the same page and that you have an investment in the company.

As others have said I would not leave my education early for a job unless I was convinced it was my job of a lifetime, because if it doesn't work out it's unlikely you'll ever finish.

[oldpotatoe]

if you are saying you are considering leaving school early for the job, then don't. period.

I hold a dissenting opinion from most of these guys. In NYC and other major cities, in a lot of fields, like design, architecture, etc., the internship with a promise to hire is a scam for cheap labor. i could go on with countless examples from my life and my friends' lives, but i'll refrain. interships aren't what they used to be. read the NYT article about the scourge of internships in this city.

that said, if you are coming straight out of school with no experience, a paid internship may be a real find, and a real opportunity. depends on where you are in school and what part of the tech industry you are going into. i do know a guy who just got hired on in a design job after an internship. on the other hand, i used to work at an architecture firm in brooklyn that had 10 unpaid full time "interns," all of whom were promised potential jobs, none of whom got them.


my advice is be honest with yourself about your experience, skills, and the reputation of your alma mater in the industry you are going into. afterwards, if you think you should be getting a job, don't let someone con you into cheap labor because you think the company is "cool." but if you think you still need experience, and to climb some ladders, do the internship, and work as hard as you can while you're there. talk to career services at your school, talk to other classmates, talk to recent grads, and see if you can't get a better idea of what the current expected/accepted range of trajectories is for your career path, i.e., if most grads are taking internships, and whether they are turning into jobs.

but bottom line, the trust your gut advice is the best advice.

I agree. Offer to be hired, with 3 months probation. Methinks they are trying to get skilled labor for less $/benefits with a carrot at the end of the stick. I'd say look for employment, not internship. You intern while still in school..you graduate to work.

[eddief]

I am super excited about your offer to become an intern here. Even though I strongly prefer full time, I believe I am a great match for the challenges you have in mind. I was wondering if the amount you mentioned in your offer letter is the most you can possibly offer to someone with my experience and academic background? Oh, well we do have a bit of flexibility here, what number would allow you to make a decision to go forward today?

Wouldn't you prefer to hire someone with the balls to do some negotiating?

[shovelhd]

There are certainly companies out there that have a revolving door of interns or whatever you want to call them short term hires with no benefits. Basically work them as long as you can for as little as you can then replace with another. I suspect the companies that do this are fairly few but it happens.

In certain industries, this is the norm, the majority, the standard. Interns at no pay. In fact, it can cost the student money for applicable credits and living expenses. It is an abuse of the intent of the minimum wage, but companies get around it because the student gets something for their work (credits), even though they have to pay for them.

The whole thing is a racket and needs to be reformed.

[spaced_ghost]

The whole thing is a racket and needs to be reformed.

very much agree.

[tuxbailey]

If you like the company and is willing to accept the "internship," make sure you understand what project they are putting you on. Hopefully not one that only needs your help for 3 months ...

[rwsaunders]

The more that I thought about this, you have both an undergrad and a masters in electrical engineering, plus a masters in computer science? You're beyond an unpaid/underpaid internship if so. Go for the gusto and seek a position that can offer you project management expereice and eventually management experience. If you can cut it in sales, that's sometimes an even faster track to being exposed to and involved with a variety of the business' functions.

[MattTuck]

What function of the organization is this position?

If you're desperate to work for that company, or in that industry, then I might go for the internship. But if other jobs are forthcoming, and you're not desperate, I'd say "thanks, but I'm only looking for full time permanent work at this point, or if you'd like me to consult on a project basis, we can discuss my consulting rate, which covers things like taxes, health care, etc."

You should be able to figure out their funding and cash flow situation from news articles. If they want to negotiate, after you tell them no to the internship, then you can come at them with how qualified you are for the job, and how well funded they are to pay you.

[deechee]

I'm not sure how things work where you are, but here in Quebec, companies get money from the government for hiring students/interns. As I understood, almost half of the salary is even paid for - so its usually decent money. The only reason I can think of making more money as a student is if the funding is received as a bursary and not taxed as some friends were.

I would also look more at the financials. You mention the company has 70 employees, expanding and got some venture capital of 6m$? How can that pay for the payroll of 70 people plus equipment, rent etc. for more than a few months? Its not fun being a product manager of something that has no R&D budget.

All that negativity put aside, if you have little work experience, 3 months isn't so bad if you think this is where you want to be. I can tell you that once you go down a path, its easy to get type-cast. Developers, Testers, Deployment specialists etc. Its hard to move to other roles; sometimes its worth the hardship at the beginning if you know what you want.

[slidey]

Ok, I can address most questions about the co by pasting their name on here, but I don't think it'd be an ethical thing to do. So, if any of you would like to know more about the co, or would like to really give me some solid advice (I'm pretty receptive to feedback) feel free to PM me and we can take it from there.

shovelhd: I actually did take up that approach with them last evening. I was brutally honest, and told them that the offer really felt like a disingenuous one, and it would do me well if I knew the reasons behind their flip-flop decision. I did get some honest answers from them, which is why I'm still considering them at this point.

I still have some hope of raking in a FT offer sooner than later, so I'm really focusing on that. Once that time comes around, I'll be once again soliciting advice about the future direction. I'm not indecisive...I just believe that collective knowledge, when channeled well is very powerful.

Thanks everyone, and feel free to keep the advice coming.

[rugbysecondrow]

or would like to really give me some solid advice (I'm pretty receptive to feedback) feel free to PM me and we can take it from there.


shovelhd: I actually did take up that approach with them last evening. I was brutally honest, and told them that the offer really felt like a disingenuous one, and it would do me well if I knew the reasons behind their flip-flop decision. I did get some honest answers from them, which is why I'm still considering them at this point.


My man, I think folks are trying to give you some solid feedback, I am not certain how receptive you are to it.

I might have a skewed perspective, but I think the above just sounds horrible. There is being a stand-up guy, negotiating, then there is being a jerk. The above sounds like a jerk thing to say. To tell your prospective employer, that you thought their offer was disingenuous and then you called their decision a flip flop? Then you note you did get some honest answers. Did you ever think maybe they are awaiting a large contract or grant and they CAN'T bring you on now? Maybe they have a staffing plan and they are executing it and your FT salary doesn't fit in now, but they want to retain talent and hit the ground running when they can fill positions. Maybe they are wanting to bring in a handful of interns and keep the top 20%. There are any number of viable reasons, but to presume what you did about them rude to say the least.


I just do not understand this approach. I am only 35, so not some old fart, but this just wreaks of snot-nosed entitlement arrogance.

Maybe this is revisionist history and you are recapping this story with more bravado than you actually had in real life, I hope so for your sake. I can say with certainty, you would not be hired by me with that attitude. Period.

Maybe I shouldn't have responded. I tried softening my wording a few times, now it's bed time. Sorry if it sounds combative, it is meant to be helpful.

[HenryA]

I agree. Offer to be hired, with 3 months probation. Methinks they are trying to get skilled labor for less $/benefits with a carrot at the end of the stick. I'd say look for employment, not internship. You intern while still in school..you graduate to work.

+1
This cuts through any scam they might have going on with offering "internships" to people they ought to pay. Its a little ballsy but it'll also get them to fish or cut bait. And you look like a man to them instead of a patsy.

But the other part where you're being cautioned for your self confidence you need to hear too. As far as I can tell and as I'd tell my kids who are your age or older is that you don't have a job until you have a check in your hand. Everything else is just make believe.

[slidey]

I agree folks have been giving me pretty good advice. Wish I could say the same about some of your posts...:cool:

Also, I think you ought to get your basics about a job market straight ( keyword: market ).

My man, I think folks are trying to give you some solid feedback, I am not certain how receptive you are to it.

I might have a skewed perspective, but I think the above just sounds horrible. There is being a stand-up guy, negotiating, then there is being a jerk. The above sounds like a jerk thing to say. To tell your prospective employer, that you thought their offer was disingenuous and then you called their decision a flip flop? Then you note you did get some honest answers. Did you ever think maybe they are awaiting a large contract or grant and they CAN'T bring you on now? Maybe they have a staffing plan and they are executing it and your FT salary doesn't fit in now, but they want to retain talent and hit the ground running when they can fill positions. Maybe they are wanting to bring in a handful of interns and keep the top 20%. There are any number of viable reasons, but to presume what you did about them rude to say the least.


I just do not understand this approach. I am only 35, so not some old fart, but this just wreaks of snot-nosed entitlement arrogance.

Maybe this is revisionist history and you are recapping this story with more bravado than you actually had in real life, I hope so for your sake. I can say with certainty, you would not be hired by me with that attitude. Period.

Maybe I shouldn't have responded. I tried softening my wording a few times, now it's bed time. Sorry if it sounds combative, it is meant to be helpful.

[bcm119]

Internships are for undergraduate seniors. I'd be wary of any company who is offering an "internship" to someone with 2 degrees and 2 years work exp. It either means they are trying to get 3 months cheap labor (most likely), or their HR people are too incompetent to do their homework and make a selection in confidence. Even if they have every intention of offering you a FT position at the end of 3 months, they still will have stolen your services for that time. Technology skills are valuable and come at a high price these days; many companies using the "internship" loophole to avoid paying for them. That said, if you really love the place and want to work there more than anywhere else, bend over and do the 3 months, it may pan out as your best option. It's important to keep in mind that no matter how fair you may believe the offer to be, there will always be someone else who will take it if you don't.
There are dissenting opinions on this, as evidenced above, but I believe they are rooted in a different perspective on the employer-employee relationship. People with technology skills and good educations already have something of easily quantifiable value, and the extent of their skills are demonstrable without an underpaid test run. There are numerous ways to examine a candidate's skills and previous work, but it takes time and effort on the part of HR. A good attitude and work ethic has and always will be an unknown until the employee shows up, and if they are a bad apple they can always be shown the door. But this idea that someone with a good track record and demonstrable tech skills needs to be tried out at a low wage is just a loophole for cheap labor. Remember that your employer has something to offer you and you have something to offer them; an internship at this point is a disingenuous reflection of that relationship.

Edit to add: There are plenty of firms offering unpaid internships to highly educated people in downtown SF. They won't even pay transportation fees to and from the office. Now, everyone knows you can't rent an apartment anywhere near SF without a decent paying job. So it's only the well-off kids and trust funders who take these internships. It's kind of a vicious circle that prevents social mobility.

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree folks have been giving me pretty good advice. Wish I could say the same about some of your posts...:cool:

Also, I think you ought to get your basics about a job market straight ( keyword: market ).

You might not like the advice, but that doesn't mean it is bad. If you were my brother or cousin I would say the same thing.

My wife, in addition to a global engineering job, is also a liason to a major university and she does some campus recruiting and interviews for her company (GE). I was shocked at some of the things the "best and brightest" of the engineering school say during interviews, how they dress, how few of them have ever had a real job, or any job for that matter, but how they also expect the world to open its arms and welcome them in with great paying jobs. Guess how many they choose.

The truth, a masters doesn't mean that much, or at least not as much as it used to. It doesn't mean you are a good employee, that you know how to function in a project oriented work environment, that you know how to be accountable for costs and real world schedules. It means you were smart enough to continue in school. I say that as somebody with a masters. What matters is what you accompany that degree with, not the degree itself. What else do you have which makes you valuable? Have you had a real job, deadlines, projects, experiences, the military, peace corps...you get the drill. If not, then why would a company pay you real money to be your practice job? Also, how did you market yourself? Are you a good advocate for your skills, experience etc? Did you come off as somebody will to work, learn, contribute, be a team player?

This is a greater conversation that your particular situation because nobody knows how your conveyed your skills to your interviewer. I will say, that if some of the attitude which seaped out in this thread also seaped out in the interview, I suspect that would cause enough to be interested in you, but not 100% on board.

This for your you to ask yourself, I don't need to answers, I have a good job. I am just trying to save you a few years of complaining and hard lessons.

[thegunner]

The truth, a masters doesn't mean that much, or at least not as much as it used to

paul, your advice is mostly solid - but this part isn't quite true. this really depends on the field you're going into. for something like compsci, there's really no point in the PhD unless you want to be a research scientist / go into academia. the same is true for a lot of the engineering disciplines.

[rustylion]

Follow your heart, pursue your passion and the money will surely come. Find a place to apply yourself professionally where everyday your feet hit the ground when you wake up, you are energized to work!

Hunting after the money is ultimately a life dead end.

I have done both in my four decades of professional contribution. The former has always, in every case, been where I can look back now, review the game films and see that those were the games I played that marked my life. Money comes and goes; life change is permanent.

I have counseled lots of men amidst a "mid-life" crisis. I do not keep statistics but my intution is that over 80% of them are reacting to being trapped in a job that pays lots of money but one that is far from who they are and/or want to be.

Pursue passion.

As Spring approaches, I look forward to the prospect of graduation. In keeping with the tradition of the times, I'm also now actively interviewing for full time opportunities.

I recently did so with a techie startup, and heard back from them this past Friday that although the feedback on my interviews was great, they'd like to make an offer of an internship. Their reasons: Since you're a local candidate, we'd like to start you off soon on such a program and within a maximum period of 3 months, based on performance, we'll make a FT offer to you.

Naturally, I asked the rate of conversion and they said that they expect me to perform well and if I did deliver, then it'd be very easy.

Here's my dilemma though: The intern offer they made is slightly more than half of what I get paid to stay in school. Makes it an offer I'm almost sure to reject! I mean, I've got principles and I'll make certain monetary compromises to do some cool work, but I'm not desperate enough to throw my skills for cheap.

My Questions: Being a tech startup (5 years old, good funding, and on an expansion spree) why would someone do this? I mean, I'm perfectly fine in being rejected outright from a position, but I don't like the discrepancy in being adjudged suitable but then being treated in a backhanded manner, especially not with a future employer. How do I handle this situation? I want a FT, or a FT offer with a performance based component at the start of my career, say 3 months, etc...but, I want surety. How do I communicate this without stepping over the line? Also, how do I know if they're genuine about considering me for a FT and not just getting work done for cheap now?

My outlook of the job: I believe in the mission of the company, and would definitely pick this over any other job I'm currently interviewing for (3 more, all in interim stages...I'm not holding my breath though), but at the same time I'm not willing to undersell myself to be only used by someone as cheap labour for a short period, to be discarded at the end of the period.

[dumbod]

For me, this is a no brainer. I wouldn't go into a dead-end job on this basis but, assuming that I liked the job, the organization and my potential boss, I'd go for it. In effect, you're being asked to invest three months in what might turn out to be an outstanding situation.

It's all well and good to talk about hypothetical average salaries but, until you've got one of those salaries, they're, well, hypothetical.

That being said, I would do some due diligence. I would ask to speak with current interns and/or employees who made the transition from intern to employee. I would be somewhat more wary if they can't or won't do that.

Finally, I would not stop my job search if I took the internship. In fact, I would probably be upfront about that and tell them that they would need to be accommodating when I needed time for interviews with other companies.

[rugbysecondrow]

paul, your advice is mostly solid - but this part isn't quite true. this really depends on the field you're going into. for something like compsci, there's really no point in the PhD unless you want to be a research scientist / go into academia. the same is true for a lot of the engineering disciplines.

Agreed, it all matters, but the point is that a stand alone degree doesn't mean as much as it used to. It needs to be coupled with other tools, experience etc. It is not that they are frivilous either, just that I think employers want more. Lots of folks have degree, how many have degrees + experience? Frankly, many masters programs require real world experience prior to be accepted into a masters program.

Thanks

[rugbysecondrow]

for me, this is a no brainer. I wouldn't go into a dead-end job on this basis but, assuming that i liked the job, the organization and my potential boss, i'd go for it. In effect, you're being asked to invest three months in what might turn out to be an outstanding situation.

It's all well and good to talk about hypothetical average salaries but, until you've got one of those salaries, they're, well, hypothetical.

That being said, i would do some due diligence. I would ask to speak with current interns and/or employees who made the transition from intern to employee. I would be somewhat more wary if they can't or won't do that.

Finally, i would not stop my job search if i took the internship. In fact, i would probably be upfront about that and tell them that they would need to be accommodating when i needed time for interviews with other companies.

+1

[slidey]

Well, we're operating on two different frequencies - and, by virtue of complete information I'm on the correct frequency. You've made way too many assumptions, all of which are unfortunately, for you, wrong. Normally I wouldn't give two hoots about what you/anyone else believes in, but in this case your opinions have cast an image of my persona which is basically BS.

First things first, please understand that a job market is called so for a reason. I get the impression on reading your posts, that by virtue of being a recent graduate one is supposed to be thankful for whatever comes their way, regardless of the price and simply take it up after muttering a few phrases of gratitude to the prospective employer. If you believe so, good for you, unfortunately we can't all be the same. An employer needs an employee to fill a certain position, and the employee needs to be paid a certain amount for his/her contribution. No one owes the other one anything that is out of the market norm.

Secondly, there are multiple ways to get a message across. You might be one of those people who can use the exact same language on an online forum as well as in the workplace, but I'm not - I am merely consistent in what I mean. I also operate on two principles - being just, and communicating clearly. I know for a fact that the offer they gave is a measly one in comparison to other internships/my summer salary in school, etc, and you might be grateful for just the offer and be able to see a lot of silver linings and so can I, but I also see a discrepancy and I'm not one to let that slide especially not at a risk to me. I'm much more comfortable starving without any job knowing I'm my own man, than succumb to a vulture offer. I did communicate my discontent quite clearly but in very different words, and it turns out I was able to elicit some honest and logical answers from them which has led me to believe that they aren't trying to take advantage of me. How you don't have the urge to question dodgy behaviour affecting you, and be willing to just turn the other cheek and accept it all as work-experience or life-experience or whatever-experience is something I don't care about; its just not something I am willing to/ever will do. Does that mean I am superman? NO! It just means I haven't found an honest employer to work for, and I'll keep looking.

Thirdly, please stop generalising. You might be very comfortable to pass judgment on an entire orchard by looking at one fruit, but not everyone is the same. A few posts back you were mentioning something about never hiring someone with my attitude...did you ever bother to think that I might not even consider to interview with you? I mean, if you're going to rant on and construct a hypothetical fairyland in which you're the king and you're handing out sops to lowly employers who have nothing better to do but to come to you for their subsistence, then its time you met me. There are people in the world who have very strong scruples, who will choose carefully with whom they associate themselves; we're usually a part of the "once bitten, twice shy" group. On my job search, I haven't applied to a single wall street firm, I'm not saying that they're waiting for me...but, I'm saying I'm not even considering them for my personal reasons. If money mattered more to me than the means of livelihood, as you seem to insinuate, then Wall Street would've been the top of my list. Similarly, the scruples of an employer are equally important to me...if I come across an employer who dares to show me the attitude you're displaying I'd just laugh at his face, give him/her a piece of my mind, and walk off. Again, that doesn't mean I think I'm too snobbish - it just means that I'm not willing to bend over for anyone. Does that mean I'm non-compromising - no, it just means I'm unwilling to compromise without being given valid reasons.

Now for some facts: During my school years, I was a navy cadet for 3 years. I've worked in a software dev corp with many branches worldwide, have worked on multi-million dollar projects for US clients, am not just a MS candidate (although nothing wrong with being a MS student either) - I'm opting to quit my doctorate as I feel my heart is elsewhere and my skills are better used elsewhere.

Just so you know - there's a difference between facts-based advice, and half-baked advice. So next time, you decide to fire away and are unsure of the facts...go on, I don't care...but don't do it at my expense, 'cause I pride myself on being a pretty darn straight shooter.

You might not like the advice, but that doesn't mean it is bad. If you were my brother or cousin I would say the same thing.

My wife, in addition to a global engineering job, is also a liason to a major university and she does some campus recruiting and interviews for her company (GE). I was shocked at some of the things the "best and brightest" of the engineering school say during interviews, how they dress, how few of them have ever had a real job, or any job for that matter, but how they also expect the world to open its arms and welcome them in with great paying jobs. Guess how many they choose.

The truth, a masters doesn't mean that much, or at least not as much as it used to. It doesn't mean you are a good employee, that you know how to function in a project oriented work environment, that you know how to be accountable for costs and real world schedules. It means you were smart enough to continue in school. I say that as somebody with a masters. What matters is what you accompany that degree with, not the degree itself. What else do you have which makes you valuable? Have you had a real job, deadlines, projects, experiences, the military, peace corps...you get the drill. If not, then why would a company pay you real money to be your practice job? Also, how did you market yourself? Are you a good advocate for your skills, experience etc? Did you come off as somebody will to work, learn, contribute, be a team player?

This is a greater conversation that your particular situation because nobody knows how your conveyed your skills to your interviewer. I will say, that if some of the attitude which seaped out in this thread also seaped out in the interview, I suspect that would cause enough to be interested in you, but not 100% on board.

This for your you to ask yourself, I don't need to answers, I have a good job. I am just trying to save you a few years of complaining and hard lessons.

[rugbysecondrow]

Well, we're operating on two different frequencies - and, by virtue of complete information I'm on the correct frequency. You've made way too many assumptions, all of which are unfortunately, for you, wrong. Normally I wouldn't give two hoots about what you/anyone else believes in, but in this case your opinions have cast an image of my persona which is basically BS.

First things first, please understand that a job market is called so for a reason. I get the impression on reading your posts, that by virtue of being a recent graduate one is supposed to be thankful for whatever comes their way, regardless of the price and simply take it up after muttering a few phrases of gratitude to the prospective employer. If you believe so, good for you, unfortunately we can't all be the same. An employer needs an employee to fill a certain position, and the employee needs to be paid a certain amount for his/her contribution. No one owes the other one anything that is out of the market norm.

Secondly, there are multiple ways to get a message across. You might be one of those people who can use the exact same language on an online forum as well as in the workplace, but I'm not - I am merely consistent in what I mean. I also operate on two principles - being just, and communicating clearly. I know for a fact that the offer they gave is a measly one in comparison to other internships/my summer salary in school, etc, and you might be grateful for just the offer and be able to see a lot of silver linings and so can I, but I also see a discrepancy and I'm not one to let that slide especially not at a risk to me. I'm much more comfortable starving without any job knowing I'm my own man, than succumb to a vulture offer. I did communicate my discontent quite clearly but in very different words, and it turns out I was able to elicit some honest and logical answers from them which has led me to believe that they aren't trying to take advantage of me. How you don't have the urge to question dodgy behaviour affecting you, and be willing to just turn the other cheek and accept it all as work-experience or life-experience or whatever-experience is something I don't care about; its just not something I am willing to/ever will do. Does that mean I am superman? NO! It just means I haven't found an honest employer to work for, and I'll keep looking.

Thirdly, please stop generalising. You might be very comfortable to pass judgment on an entire orchard by looking at one fruit, but not everyone is the same. A few posts back you were mentioning something about never hiring someone with my attitude...did you ever bother to think that I might not even consider to interview with you? I mean, if you're going to rant on and construct a hypothetical fairyland in which you're the king and you're handing out sops to lowly employers who have nothing better to do but to come to you for their subsistence, then its time you met me. There are people in the world who have very strong scruples, who will choose carefully with whom they associate themselves; we're usually a part of the "once bitten, twice shy" group. On my job search, I haven't applied to a single wall street firm, I'm not saying that they're waiting for me...but, I'm saying I'm not even considering them for my personal reasons. If money mattered more to me than the means of livelihood, as you seem to insinuate, then Wall Street would've been the top of my list. Similarly, the scruples of an employer are equally important to me...if I come across an employer who dares to show me the attitude you're displaying I'd just laugh at his face, give him/her a piece of my mind, and walk off. Again, that doesn't mean I think I'm too snobbish - it just means that I'm not willing to bend over for anyone. Does that mean I'm non-compromising - no, it just means I'm unwilling to compromise without being given valid reasons.

Now for some facts: During my school years, I was a navy cadet for 3 years. I've worked in a software dev corp with many branches worldwide, have worked on multi-million dollar projects for US clients, am not just a MS candidate (although nothing wrong with being a MS student either) - I'm opting to quit my doctorate as I feel my heart is elsewhere and my skills are better used elsewhere.

Just so you know - there's a difference between facts-based advice, and half-baked advice. So next time, you decide to fire away and are unsure of the facts...go on, I don't care...but don't do it at my expense, 'cause I pride myself on being a pretty darn straight shooter.

Your skills are worth what somebody is willing to pay for them. Maybe you will get the offer you feel you deserve. That will be good for you and you can point to the market and feel good. Maybe you will not be as fortunate because the market didn't respond to you and your skillset like you thought. Then you arrive at a decision point. If you feel you are above the internship, then say "no". This is not a hard decision. Maybe they should have called it a fellowship to make folks feel better, since undergrads get internships. :)

You asked for advice based on information YOU provided, don't be upset when somebody else provides that advice. You provided half baked info, so I suppose that is what you got. I don't think I misrepresented though, I used your own words. You typed them, not me, so if you feel uncomfortable, then maybe you should have chosen your words more wisely or represented yourself differently. If you reread, there are others who picked up on the same attitude. That is YOUR issue to deal with, not mine. I just held up the mirror.

You attitude is what it is, it is present from your OP until the quoted bits above. There is a way to represent your interests without also thinking folks are acting without merit, are being dodgy or disengeniune. Hopefully you did that better in person than you did here. Hopefully you worked in good faith and assumed the same from them rather than taking the accusitory tone you mentioned here. Maybe you were just blowing off steam here but were polite and meaningful in person.
I have no dog in the fight, but you should know that you went fishing and caught something, it just wasn't the pat on the back you wanted. Like it or not, folks here have some experience, varying levels of success and failure...both worth learning from.

Lastly, I am grateful for any opportunity somebody will PAY ME, but that doesn't mean I accept every offer. I was greatful for every intership I had, even the free ones where I had great mentors. I had a great opportunity working for the States Attorney's office...that free internship saved me 3 year of law school. The point is that they are opportunities, but they are your opportunities and you need to cultivate them how you see fit. We obviously have difference styles, that is cool. I hope yours works for you and are successful, I am good either way though.

take my comments in the spirit in which they were given, help. Or don't, it is up to you.

[slidey]

Yup, my decisions are motivated by primarily passion. I only want to make sure that I'm not in a position where my passion is being exploited to a huge degree.

Pursue passion.

[thegunner]

Yup, my decisions are motivated by primarily passion. I only want to make sure that I'm not in a position where my passion is being exploited to a huge degree.

i feel like every corporation somewhat exploits your talents. it just comes down to how much they can distract you with benefits.

[slidey]

I agree that I didn't provide complete info - but, I did provide complete info as to the couple of specific Q's I asked; for everything else it was utterly inadequate. However, when you launch into advice that isn't even needed and you have to make assumptions about a mountain from a molehill to give the advice, then things are bound to go wrong...as we've just witnessed.

For the bits that helped me, thanks! And before you jump to conclusions, no, that's not the same thing as listening to only what I want to hear. Cheers!

Your skills are worth what somebody is willing to pay for them. Maybe you will get the offer you feel you deserve. That will be good for you and you can point to the market and feel good. Maybe you will not be as fortunate because the market didn't respond to you and your skillset like you thought. Then you arrive at a decision point. If you feel you are above the internship, then say "no". This is not a hard decision. Maybe they should have called it a fellowship to make folks feel better, since undergrads get internships. :)

You asked for advice based on information YOU provided, don't be upset when somebody else provides that advice. You provided half baked info, so I suppose that is what you got. I don't think I misrepresented though, I used your own words. You typed them, not me, so if you feel uncomfortable, then maybe you should have chosen your words more wisely or represented yourself differently. If you reread, there are others who picked up on the same attitude. That is YOUR issue to deal with, not mine. I just held up the mirror.

You attitude is what it is, it is present from your OP until the quoted bits above. There is a way to represent your interests without also thinking folks are acting without merit, are being dodgy or disengeniune. Hopefully you did that better in person than you did here. Hopefully you worked in good faith and assumed the same from them rather than taking the accusitory tone you mentioned here. Maybe you were just blowing off steam here but were polite and meaningful in person.
I have no dog in the fight, but you should know that you went fishing and caught something, it just wasn't the pat on the back you wanted. Like it or not, folks here have some experience, varying levels of success and failure...both worth learning from.

Lastly, I am grateful for any opportunity somebody will PAY ME, but that doesn't mean I accept every offer. I was greatful for every intership I had, even the free ones where I had great mentors. I had a great opportunity working for the States Attorney's office...that free internship saved me 3 year of law school. The point is that they are opportunities, but they are your opportunities and you need to cultivate them how you see fit. We obviously have difference styles, that is cool. I hope yours works for you and are successful, I am good either way though.

take my comments in the spirit in which they were given, help. Or don't, it is up to you.

[tuxbailey]

People, take a deep breath:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Joachim]

You asked for career advice on a bike forum. I suggest talking to your peers or graduate advisor. I recently posted a position in my group and got 28 MS graduates in 48hrs. I see your point but you need to chill out.

[slidey]

To quote a line from one of my fave movie's (In the Loop) -

"I'm f**kin zen" :banana:

But yeah, I hear ya and I have. Figured I'd rope in some feedback from a useful community to get better perspectives.

You asked for career advice on a bike forum. I suggest talking to your peers or graduate advisor. I recently posted a position in my group and got 28 MS graduates in 48hrs. I see your point but you need to chill out.

[spaced_ghost]

You have lots of solid advice in here, from multiple different perspectives. I think you have enough info to make your decision. And like most advice request threads on forums on any topic, it's impossible for us to know the whole picture. In this case, it would be unprofessional and highly unadvised to post the company name or your school name, so we can't know the whole picture. no biggie. there is some good general advice to be had here.

I understand where rugby is coming from, but I disagree with him on one basic assumption he is making: that the employer is operating in good faith and giving you, the recent grad, an extremely difficult to come by gift of an opportunity, and that you, the young soon to be graduate, would be stupid not to take it. I'm also 35. I don't know the field rugby works in, but I and my friends have been working in tech and design (graphic, interface, architecture, etc.) fields in major markets since graduating, and those real world (i don't mean to say that rugby's are not real world, i have no idea) experiences have left me with this perspective: in these industries, the majority of the time, "internships" are a way to get cheap labor, and the promise of future work with the company is always the carrot at the end of the stick. It rarely pans out that way. For this reason, I think if you have real offers for full-time work, it may be best to take those. If the work is interesting to you, and you see a future in the company, great. If not, then you at least can get a year or two of solid experience past grad school, which will make you a definite candidate for better jobs in the future.

I did mention before that I have seen some cases where an internship has turned into a full-time job. It's rare, but it happens. The fact that it's a paid internship is extremely rare, and an indication that they may possibly be more serious about hiring you in the future than you think they are.

In rugby's defense, being that I work in an industry that regularly hires art and design school grads from very expensive schools, I have definitely had to deal with my share of entitled whiny babies, and can wholeheartedly empathize with the frustration of dealing with that generation/type in an employment setting. Don't be that guy. On the other hand, unless you are funded by your parents, avoid the internship trap unless it really is actually necessary in your field. and as far as I know, the only field where it's really necessary is a field where it is required by law, like being a doctor, etc.

and again, take it with a grain of salt. It's an internet forum.