My Campy square taper cranks feel MUCH smoother than Campy UT

[4Rings6Stars]

On my last three builds, I have used ulta torque cranks. Chorus 10 speed, white logo SR 11 speed, Athena 11. All have used Record bb cups, all have been installed/torqued/greased to spec. I was happy with all of them...until I just installed a Record carbon square taper crank with a Chorus BB. It just feels so much smoother!

I currently have two bikes on the stand without chains, one with the Athena UT and one with Record square taper. I spin the crank arm with all my might: UT spins for 4 or 5 seconds. ST spins for 20+ seconds.

Each crank/BB is broken in and has a few hundred miles on it.

What gives? Does my non-scientific experiment mean nothing and I shouldn't worry about it? Or should I start selling my UT cranks and stocking back up on square taper?

[thirdgenbird]

I noticed the same thing when I installed my first UT crankset. I blame seal dag on the much larger axle but I've never tested without seals to confirm.

[AgilisMerlin]

outer bearings/cups suck

compared too older bottom brackets, and then we can go back to loose bearing retainer/spindle BB's

thinking about it puts me into a funk.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6042/6292991072_2c0d164de5_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3658/3372061507_a4b6cd8b5d_z.jpg?zz=1

http://www.tracksupermarket.com/images/large/hattar9400_l.jpg

[Louis]

I spin the crank arm with all my might: UT spins for 4 or 5 seconds.

I've never worked on an outboard-bearing BB, but to me that sounds way, way too short and therefore too much drag.

[jds108]

With the UT system, it's not just the seals on the cartridge bearing that are contributing friction, there are also the seals on the cups and at the very ends of the axles, right next to the inside face of the crankarms. The latter seals are the biggest contributor to drag on my UT cranks/bbs.

Somehow almost magically (i.e. I think it's a little conspiracy on Campy's part), the seals on the Super Record axles have much less friction then either the Chorus or Athena cranks that I have. I'd buy some of those SR seals, but I'm pretty sure the only way to get them is to buy replacement SR cartridge bearings.

[giverdada]

i have found the exact same thing. i've installed the crank and bb cups myself, and then had them worked on at the LBS when they started to clunk and grind. the LBS found that on my chorus cranks in super record cups, there was a gap (lack of seals?) that left enough room to get grime and whatnot in there, and everything else broke down. he ended up replacing both bearings, and i had a set of record cups on hand so he put those in. it's perfectly smooth and quiet now, but only for a couple revolutions. nothing touches those old bb's with that plastic bit over the axle. smooooooth.

[ultraman6970]

Is the way UT is, the seals and stuff make it turn less but the difference while riding is totally different.

Squared tapper has nothing of seals so it will turn freely specially when using lose balls, Actually the token squared tapper has a seal that needs to break 1st.

The difference between UT and Squared tapper as a set is that UT will feel way more solid riding. I have not used shimano outboard cranksets so no idea if they will feel the same than UT or squared tapper but so far the aluminum UT stuff I have felt way more solid than the Squared tapper aluminum and carbon cranks I had since day one.

As with cars, some guys can feel a new oil change (me), other ones cant feel anything. I can feel differences in the way cranks, pedals, handlebars and other stuff feels right away. The pedaling with UT is more solid and more rounded than with squared tapper. Why they have not moved UT to track for example? no clue, maybe chainline and that their presence in the track is minimal? Never been able to pin point the reason.

[oldpotatoe]

On my last three builds, I have used ulta torque cranks. Chorus 10 speed, white logo SR 11 speed, Athena 11. All have used Record bb cups, all have been installed/torqued/greased to spec. I was happy with all of them...until I just installed a Record carbon square taper crank with a Chorus BB. It just feels so much smoother!

I currently have two bikes on the stand without chains, one with the Athena UT and one with Record square taper. I spin the crank arm with all my might: UT spins for 4 or 5 seconds. ST spins for 20+ seconds.

Each crank/BB is broken in and has a few hundred miles on it.

What gives? Does my non-scientific experiment mean nothing and I shouldn't worry about it? Or should I start selling my UT cranks and stocking back up on square taper?

If you are concerned, sell all of them and get a 111mm spindle, C-Record era crank, with ball bearings. When installed correctly, those will spin for minutes, feel like they are running in water.

BUT all cart bearing BBs, some with tighter seals than others, are somewhat sluggish..nature of the 'beast'.

[oldpotatoe]

With the UT system, it's not just the seals on the cartridge bearing that are contributing friction, there are also the seals on the cups and at the very ends of the axles, right next to the inside face of the crankarms. The latter seals are the biggest contributor to drag on my UT cranks/bbs.

Somehow almost magically (i.e. I think it's a little conspiracy on Campy's part), the seals on the Super Record axles have much less friction then either the Chorus or Athena cranks that I have. I'd buy some of those SR seals, but I'm pretty sure the only way to get them is to buy replacement SR cartridge bearings.

No seals on the SR cups, a bad thing. bearings on SR are 'CULT', ceramic and pretty smooth when new but I still recommend grease all around them, because they can and do get corrupted. There are no 'SR seals'.

[bobswire]

On my last three builds, I have used ulta torque cranks. Chorus 10 speed, white logo SR 11 speed, Athena 11. All have used Record bb cups, all have been installed/torqued/greased to spec. I was happy with all of them...until I just installed a Record carbon square taper crank with a Chorus BB. It just feels so much smoother!

I currently have two bikes on the stand without chains, one with the Athena UT and one with Record square taper. I spin the crank arm with all my might: UT spins for 4 or 5 seconds. ST spins for 20+ seconds.

Each crank/BB is broken in and has a few hundred miles on it.

What gives? Does my non-scientific experiment mean nothing and I shouldn't worry about it? Or should I start selling my UT cranks and stocking back up on square taper?

Same thing can be said with all outboard systems compared to standard bottom brackets. I went back to using cranks that use standard bb for that reason.

[oldpotatoe]

Is the way UT is, the seals and stuff make it turn less but the difference while riding is totally different.

Squared tapper has nothing of seals so it will turn freely specially when using lose balls, Actually the token squared tapper has a seal that needs to break 1st.

The difference between UT and Squared tapper as a set is that UT will feel way more solid riding. I have not used shimano outboard cranksets so no idea if they will feel the same than UT or squared tapper but so far the aluminum UT stuff I have felt way more solid than the Squared tapper aluminum and carbon cranks I had since day one.

As with cars, some guys can feel a new oil change (me), other ones cant feel anything. I can feel differences in the way cranks, pedals, handlebars and other stuff feels right away. The pedaling with UT is more solid and more rounded than with squared tapper. Why they have not moved UT to track for example? no clue, maybe chainline and that their presence in the track is minimal? Never been able to pin point the reason.

There are plenty of outboard bearing track cranks but you can 'feel' a new oil change??

[4Rings6Stars]

If you are concerned, sell all of them and get a 111mm spindle, C-Record era crank, with ball bearings. When installed correctly, those will spin for minutes, feel like they are running in water.

BUT all cart bearing BBs, some with tighter seals than others, are somewhat sluggish..nature of the 'beast'.


The st cranks/bb I'm using are 2005 era Record/Chorus. Aren't those cartridge bearings?

[ultraman6970]

Just gave an example... but anyways, if you change the oil in the car you should be feeling more power outta the car.. some people cant tell a difference, dont ask me why... again just an example :P

[Black Dog]

The drag with outboard bearings is a bit disappointing when compared to square taper BBs but when riding the extra drag is not worth the worry since the effort to overcome it is very very small. It does not slow you down. However, it is stil very nice to see my square taper record crank just spin compared to my UT crank. On the stand there is a difference , on the road, nope.

[tv_vt]

This is the reason all my bikes have Shimano Octalink bottom brackets and not outboard BBs. And why I won't use SRAM cranks or bottom brackets. Haven't tried Campy, but the Octalink bb is wonderfully smooth. I've got Ritchey, FSA, and Sugino compact cranks paired up to them.

TV

[oldpotatoe]

The st cranks/bb I'm using are 2005 era Record/Chorus. Aren't those cartridge bearings?

Yep, they haven't been loose ball bearing BBs since the late 80s, early 90s.

[Black Dog]

Just gave an example... but anyways, if you change the oil in the car you should be feeling more power outta the car.. some people cant tell a difference, dont ask me why... again just an example :P

Huh? Older oil losses it's viscosity and becomes thinner and as such lowers friction producing more power, not the other way around. It does not protect as we'll however since it does a poorer job of coating surfaces. Perhaps you are using the new Placebo 5W-30.

[4Rings6Stars]

The drag with outboard bearings is a bit disappointing when compared to square taper BBs but when riding the extra drag is not worth the worry since the effort to overcome it is very very small. It does not slow you down. However, it is stil very nice to see my square taper record crank just spin compared to my UT crank. On the stand there is a difference , on the road, nope.

I would love to understand how that is possible.

Maybe you're saying the increased drag is negligible, that I could potentially get on board with, but saying that increased drag is present, but wouldn't slow you down and that it makes no difference just doesn't compute.

[bobswire]

The drag with outboard bearings is a bit disappointing when compared to square taper BBs but when riding the extra drag is not worth the worry since the effort to overcome it is very very small. It does not slow you down. However, it is stil very nice to see my square taper record crank just spin compared to my UT crank. On the stand there is a difference , on the road, nope.

Daryl hate to difference with ya but I can use any and all the help I can get while pedaling, especially for long climbs whether it be tires, wheels, weight and or crank drag. It does make a difference in the long run,IMO.

[oldpotatoe]

Doug hate to difference with ya but I can use any and all the help I can get while pedaling, especially for long climbs whether it be tires, wheels, weight and or crank drag. It does make a difference in the long run,IMO.

It really does, not sure how much but seal drag does take energy to overcome when compared to less drag at the crank.

[jds108]

No seals on the SR cups, a bad thing. bearings on SR are 'CULT', ceramic and pretty smooth when new but I still recommend grease all around them, because they can and do get corrupted. There are no 'SR seals'.

I thought I was being fairly clear, but perhaps not. What do you call the thin plastic/rubber disk (aka seal) that comes in a campy sr bearing replacement package? This is the "seal" that sits on the axle between the cartridge and the inner face of the crankarm. I am not referring to the seal that's included with the cups on the non-sr BB cups.

These "seals" come on the cranks when new and serve as the first barrier to gunk from the outside world making it into the bearings.

http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/images/bottom_brackets/main/BEARINGS%20CULT.jpg

[witcombusa]

Just gave an example... but anyways, if you change the oil in the car you should be feeling more power outta the car.. some people cant tell a difference, dont ask me why... again just an example :P

:eek:

Sorry, it does not work that way.
There is more viscosity drag on fresh oil (assuming of course both the old and the new were the same grade)

[Crackerkorean]

When I was working in a shop (2008ish) we constantly had outboard BB failures. For this reason alone I, like tv_vt still run octalink on my mountain bike.

From an engineering standpoint I would guess the thinking is that integrating the crank axel into the crank arm gives your more power transfer and less weight.

I guess that improvement in power transfer and weight loss is greater than what it takes to overcome the little extra friction in the outboard bottom bracket.

Im guessing on the wight loss, haven't weighed them to know for sure.

[oldpotatoe]

I thought I was being fairly clear, but perhaps not. What do you call the thin plastic/rubber disk (aka seal) that comes in a campy sr bearing replacement package? This is the "seal" that sits on the axle between the cartridge and the inner face of the crankarm. I am not referring to the seal that's included with the cups on the non-sr BB cups.

These "seals" come on the cranks when new and serve as the first barrier to gunk from the outside world making it into the bearings.

http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/images/bottom_brackets/main/BEARINGS%20CULT.jpg

Yep, but putting 'SR seals', the ones that come with these very expensive bearings, will not make a non SR bearing be any smoother. They don't really even touch the bearings.

If ya want smooth. Use SR cups(no seals), take the SR bearings off, remove the seal on the outboard side, dribble a bit of Boeshield in there, install and go ride and in about a week or 2, replace the bearings cuz they will be toasted.

[pbarry]

This is the reason all my bikes have Shimano Octalink bottom brackets and not outboard BBs. And why I won't use SRAM cranks or bottom brackets. Haven't tried Campy, but the Octalink bb is wonderfully smooth. I've got Ritchey, FSA, and Sugino compact cranks paired up to them.

TV
The Dura Ace 7700 BB is the best made non-cartridge BB I've ever seen. Needle and ball bearings with multiple seals. No idea how these hold up, but they are beautifully made.

[oldpotatoe]

The Dura Ace 7700 BB is the best made non-cartridge BB I've ever seen. Needle and ball bearings with multiple seals. No idea how these hold up, but they are beautifully made.

Not well. Hard to adjust and water channeled in there pretty easily. Draggy also, with all those needle bearings.

[likebikes]

stating the obvious!

it's inherent that sq taper bbs spin smoother/longer than outboard setups.

hence the rise in ceramic bearing options for external bb setups.

there's a lot more in a bb than just smoothness and how long the cranks spin for...

those square taper cartridge bearing chorus/record bbs are absolutely magnificent

[FlashUNC]

I think my square taper cranks look cooler than UT, which is reason enough for me to stick with the "old" standard.

Maybe that makes me vain.

[wallymann]

check your BB shell prepping, as UTs depend on the BB shell itself being perfectly square/true so the UT cups are square so there wont be any binding in the UT bearings.

the BB shell's threads need to be chased and more importantly BOTH sides of the BB shell need to be faced perfectly parallel -- all with proper tools.

What gives? Does my non-scientific experiment mean nothing and I shouldn't worry about it? Or should I start selling my UT cranks and stocking back up on square taper?

[Black Dog]

Daryl hate to difference with ya but I can use any and all the help I can get while pedaling, especially for long climbs whether it be tires, wheels, weight and or crank drag. It does make a difference in the long run,IMO.

No worries bob. There is more drag, the question is how much? if it is a fraction of a watt then, even on the longest climb we are only talking about a few seconds. Since you are retired and living the dream you must have a few minutes to spare over the course of a year. :) Perhaps the increased stiffness and lightness of the new style cranks gives back the watts that are lost from the seal drag. I know how you feel, I switched over from a regular skill 77 to a mag 77, and i am not even a framer. I think you will get the reference.

[rice rocket]

Is this a troll thread to out the retrogrouches?

[bobswire]

No worries bob. There is more drag, the question is how much? if it is a fraction of a watt then, even on the longest climb we are only talking about a few seconds. Since you are retired and living the dream you must have a few minutes to spare over the course of a year. :) Perhaps the increased stiffness and lightness of the new style cranks gives back the watts that are lost from the seal drag. I know how you feel, I switched over from a regular skill 77 to a mag 77, and i am not even a framer. I think you will get the reference.

I hear ya, nowadays I use a 5-1/2" Skil, it which pretty much handles most of my needs but still have an old Milwaukee workhorse and a Skil 77 sitting around if needed.

Rice rocket@Is this a troll thread to out the retrogrouches?
We've been outed way before this one......

[cfox]

You are nuts if you think seal drag is going to make a difference in your riding. Spin a Chris King hubbed front wheel vs. a DT240. The DT240 will spin much, much longer but I promise you will not feel it on the road. The torque applied to a crank is so much greater than the incremental seal drag, it will not make a difference. Maybe, maybe maybe an elite track rider could tell, but not your average roadie.

[4Rings6Stars]

Is this a troll thread to out the retrogrouches?

Nope, just an observation while I was simultaneously building one bike up with UT and one bike up with ST and noticed a HUGE difference.

I'm somewhat satisfied by most of the responses that it probably won't make much of a noticeable difference (can I throw any more noncommittal words in that sentence?;))

[El Chaba]

At the risk of sounding like a real retrogrouch, I have to say that the difference in drag between a Campy Record square taper BB and Record UT outboard setup must be several hundred times the difference between conventional steel bearings and ceramic ones.....and people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for that "savings" in resistance...

[rice rocket]

It's pretty simple, guys.

Grab a dental pick, yank the seals off your cartridge bearings. BOOM, no seals, no drag, lots of bearing replacement. :)

[Ralph]

IMHO of all the improvements and advancements made in cycling equipment over the past years, this change from internal BB's to outboard bearings is the least significant improvement. In many ways, it seems to me a step backward, requiring a higher level of frame mfg quality and prep work. Not to mention the greater exposure oif the BB to the elements. I suppose it allows the frame builders to play around with different BB designs and seat tube sizes. But it's kinda lost on me also. I have a Campy Centaur (new version) cartridge in one bike and a Record Triple cartridge BB in another. Both have thousands of miles on them, and still perfectly smooth. Fully expect them to last many more years. I just take them out once a year to regrease the threads on the cups, put them back in and re tq. With UT and PT always reading about BB facing issues, or problems with cups or hassle with removal tools. Not so many perfectly happy users.

[cfox]

I much prefer outboard bearings. They feel much more "solid" to me. I like the easier maintainence of them, too. The crank pops off in 2 seconds and the cups 2 seconds later. You aren't wearing down the crank flats every time you remove/replace the crank, either. It's true they require closer tolerances for frame prep, but that can be said about many modern parts for bikes. It ain't that har to face a BB shell...

p.s. no argument that square tapers spin a bit easier (not that I think it matters!)

[svelocity]

Track guys are using the SRAM Omnium crankset and there are claims the Omnium cranks are stiffer but I have my doubts...

Speaking of doubts...I doubt the seal drag on the outboard BB's make any difference. Hell, I bought a 1984 Stumpjumper off of Craigslist and rode it around for a few weeks without doing any work to it. When I finally got to upgrading it into my around town bike I noticed the cranks were very notchy. I pulled the BB and it must had been the most notched, chewed up loose ball BB imaginable. Plus the grease was literally glue and clearly it hadn't been replaced since the 80's. I was really looking forward to installing a new BB and feeling the a difference...Nope. It felt exactly the same. :eek:

I love bikes as the machines they are and I want mine to be as efficient as possible. However, I believe the part that rotates on an average 80 RPM is probably where you gonna get the least bang for your buck. Don't even get me started on ceramic BB's :D

[Louis]

Is this a troll thread to out the retrogrouches?

To paraphrase a more famous quote, if using something better makes me a retrogrouch, then I'm happy to be called a retrogrouch. ;)

[thirdgenbird]

It ain't that har to face a BB shell...

The closest shop I found with a facing tool is 90 miles away. I called nearly every shop in Des Moines Iowa and they all said they no longer have facing tools.

[JLP]

Just gave an example... but anyways, if you change the oil in the car you should be feeling more power outta the car.. some people cant tell a difference, dont ask me why... again just an example :P

Surely, you jest.

[oldpotatoe]

I much prefer outboard bearings. They feel much more "solid" to me. I like the easier maintainence of them, too. The crank pops off in 2 seconds and the cups 2 seconds later. You aren't wearing down the crank flats every time you remove/replace the crank, either. It's true they require closer tolerances for frame prep, but that can be said about many modern parts for bikes. It ain't that har to face a BB shell...

p.s. no argument that square tapers spin a bit easier (not that I think it matters!)

Ain't hard to face and chase a BB shell but gotta have the tools. I think I have one of the few Italian taps and guides in the republic, I know the only French one.

[Ralph]

Where can one buy a good facing tool at a reasonable cost for home use. I'm interested in owning this tool, but don't want to spend for what might be called shop quality. I won't use it many times.

[thirdgenbird]

Where can one buy a good facing tool at a reasonable cost for home use. I'm interested in owning this tool, but don't want to spend for what might be called shop quality. I won't use it many times.

Shop quality s all that you will find. The shops around here all say they can't afford to buy one for shop use. (Instead they sell people replacement external cups)

If you are serious about getting one, ive seen some older park and Campagnolo tools sell for prices you might be able to stomach.

[oldpotatoe]

Shop quality s all that you will find. The shops around here all say they can't afford to buy one for shop use. (Instead they sell people replacement external cups)

If you are serious about getting one, ive seen some older park and Campagnolo tools sell for prices you might be able to stomach.

YGBSM...no wonder people learn how to wrench themselves.

[thirdgenbird]

YGBSM...no wonder people learn how to wrench themselves.

every shop acted like it was a ridiculous request.

Edit: I take that back. One shops said no problem and then after I drove 60 miles I was told they didn't have the tool any longer.

[54ny77]

what's next, talking about how for time trials we all took out the grease from campy cups (hubs) and put in thin oil to reduce friction?

:p

[axel23]

Having just finished two retro projects, with Nuovo and Super Record bottom brackets, there is no question that the spindles spin with less resistance than any sealed unit I own.

Now as to how much difference it makes is anyone's guess. But if the choice is between smoother or rougher - then give me smoother.