From the 'UCI is at it again' files: lawyer tabs

[Gummee]

Link (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/news/uci-begins-enforcement-of-fork-lawyer-tab-rule-in-qatar_274065)

How long before we get super wide opening QRs or alternatively, mimimalist lawyer tabs? Anything to get around what is perceived to be a stupid rule.

M

[Ralph]

I like "lawyer" tabs. It's not a stupid rule. On a ride many years ago in Daytona Bch, Fl, a rider just in front of me lost his front wheel. Am sure it was his fault some way, but he was killed in front of all of us. I'll never forget seeing him rolled over and over underneath a car. We have lots of rules in this country that protect us from our own stupidity or careless actions. This is just another one. It might save a few lives. Maybe next time you grab your bike off the rear of your car, while in a hurry to get ready for a ride, you forget to tighten up your front skewer, and those tabs that keep your wheel from coming off could save you from a nasty fall or worse. Stuff happens to all of us. And I understand why it's a pain to racers.

[MattTuck]

As I read the rule, if the manufacturer were to grind off the tabs, the teams wouldn't be breaking any rules.

Regardless if the rule has merit, it seems like the UCI should be focusing on bigger issues than lawyer tabs.

[ultraman6970]

Well, the tab is a good idea if you virtually get the front wheel taken off of the fork in a weird accident as it happened to me when i was 16 y/o in a road national. The guy in front of my made a turn out of nowhere like in 90 degrees, lock my front wheel with his RD and the next i know my front wheel is like 10 meters away in the middle of the road. Well with steel bieks we did not have the darn tab tho, i agree that when changing the wheel is a PITA to put a wheel with the bloody tabs.

[mike p]

It's a dopey rule. I quess the bike racing world isn't immune from the stupidity rampant in the rest of the world.

Mike

[avalonracing]

I've never heard anyone say that they lost or won a race because of a lawyer tab being present or filed off.

Once I did take a 40 mile ride with a friend who had just borrowed a fancy, new Legend Ti from another friend. My buddy was a MTB'er who was was yet to buy his first nice road bike. My friend, being a MTB'er was usually hopping over crap in the road but since he was on a borrowed machine that he couldn't afford to replace he kept both wheels firmly on the ground. When we were done with the ride he got off the bike and lifted up the front of the bike to carry it over a curb and the front wheel all but fell out. I decided that day to never file off any tabs.

[thirdgenbird]

Ive got no tabs to file. My forks were made by Tommasini, Colnago, and Goodrich.

[phcollard]

Looks like these guys have nothing to do of their time.

Next step is to enforce a tubular gluing method. 'cause it's true a tubular could roll off the wheel in a tight curve while descending a col.

Or maybe bring back the alloy steerer. As George knows carbon steerers can brake and cause heavy damage.

Oh yes, they should regulate maximum coffee temperature for the mechanics in the morning. I know at least one occurrence of a guy who burned his tongue because coffee was way too hot.

Also if you drive the team van don't leave your driver's seat to go chat with the boys while the van is moving. Cruise control is no autopilot. Read the manual.

<end of sarcasm> :)

[shovelhd]

The fact that the UCI is focused on enforcing this rule shows you where their priorities are. Stupid. I keep mine on since it helps keep my bike in the bike rack, and I am not a pro. That's my choice.

I found it amusing that Joe Papp felt the need to comment.

[Tony T]

What I want to know, are they enforcing Articles 1.3.014 and 1.3.024 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/12/news/saddlegate-revisited_200823)?

[shovelhd]

Fortunately all that nonsense was waived at Nats.

[sg8357]

Once again the UCI misses the point, slotted dropouts are the problem.
Thru-axles combined with wing nuts would take of the problem.

Since discs are the future, might as well start the journey now.
Soon q/r's will be the province of Bicycle Quarterly and Rivendell.

[phcollard]

Once again the UCI misses the point, slotted dropouts are the problem.
Thru-axles combined with wing nuts would take of the problem.

Lol. Good one :)

[ultraman6970]

Wingnuts? hahahahahaha

[Vientomas]

Or maybe bring back the alloy steerer. As George knows carbon steerers can brake and cause heavy damage.



The official press release, from Zapata Espinosa at Trek, 4/10/06 (printed
verbatim)-

George Hincapie at Paris-Roubaix

Discovery Channel Pro cyclist George Hincapie crashed twice yesterday in the famed Paris-Roubaix and was unable to finish. The last crash apparently a result of the first incident happened when his aluminum steer tube broke at the intersection with the stem.

[phcollard]

The official press release, from Zapata Espinosa at Trek, 4/10/06 (printed
verbatim)-

George Hincapie at Paris-Roubaix

Discovery Channel Pro cyclist George Hincapie crashed twice yesterday in the famed Paris-Roubaix and was unable to finish. The last crash apparently a result of the first incident happened when his aluminum steer tube broke at the intersection with the stem.

Oh my bad. Too much red for supper! Thanks for the correction.

[dancinkozmo]

The official press release, from Zapata Espinosa at Trek, 4/10/06 (printed
verbatim)-

George Hincapie at Paris-Roubaix

Discovery Channel Pro cyclist George Hincapie crashed twice yesterday in the famed Paris-Roubaix and was unable to finish. The last crash apparently a result of the first incident happened when his aluminum steer tube broke at the intersection with the stem.

wouldve won the day if he were using a surly pacer fork.

[Gummee]

wouldve won the day if he were using a surly pacer fork.

Or even one of those 'too light for P-R carbon fiber jobbies.'

M

[Gummee]

I hadn't seen anything about Karsten Kroon's injury:

The 33-year-old Dutchman received a deep, 6cm long cut to his right thigh, caused by another rider’s chainring.

Next up on the UCI's most wanted list: chainring protectors.
http://store.cycledifferent.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/chain%20ring%20guard%20version%202.jpg
Its for the riders' safety after all!

M

[eippo1]

I hadn't seen anything about Karsten Kroon's injury:

The 33-year-old Dutchman received a deep, 6cm long cut to his right thigh, caused by another rider’s chainring.

Next up on the UCI's most wanted list: chainring protectors.
Its for the riders' safety after all!

M

I'd totally agree with this as I had the the rear of my Sidi's cut in half by another's chainring in a crit. The Sidi's saved my achilles, but all could have been avoided with some good ol' UCI nanny-clausing.

[Vientomas]

Oh my bad. Too much red for supper! Thanks for the correction.

You're welcome. I enjoyed the sarcasm. Due to time zone differentials, you started drinking before me.

[AgilisMerlin]

anyone ever have a front wheel fall off while riding :eek: ?

[phcollard]

anyone ever have a front wheel fall off while riding :eek: ?

A friend of mine has during a sprint uphill. He did not tighten his front skewer enough and the wheel came loose. He crashed and that wasn't pretty. Many nasty bruises that lasted for weeks. He thanked God for painkillers. His freshly acquired Ciocc steel bike was toast. The fork was bent sideways beyond repair and the headtube crushed the downtube. All we have left now is a 20" piece of Columbus tubing with nice Ciocc decals on it.

[don compton]

Maybe the Protour teams should consider Rivendell Roadeos, No lawyer's lips:hello:

[BumbleBeeDave]

anyone ever have a front wheel fall off while riding :eek: ?

I didn't have the QR tight enough. I had returned from a bike tour several weeks before, tightened the QR just enough to get the bike inside, forgot about it, then didn't ride that bike for two weeks.

No lawyer tabs. Hit a hole, wheel came out, fork dropped onto wheel, throwing me over the bars and onto the pavement, hitting on the right side of my forehead at 20mph+.

If I wasn't wearing a helmet, I would be dead.

As it was, fractured C4 vertebra, concussion, sprained shoulder, road rash on face, lost part of my right ear.

Sorry, but no sympathy from me for whining about lawyer tabs.

BBD

[saab2000]

I didn't have the QR tight enough. I had returned from a bike tour several weeks before, tightened the QR just enough to get the bike inside, forgot about it, then didn't ride that bike for two weeks.

No lawyer tabs. Hit a hole, wheel came out, fork dropped onto wheel, throwing me over the bars and onto the pavement, hitting on the right side of my forehead at 20mph+.

If I wasn't wearing a helmet, I would be dead.

As it was, fractured C4 vertebra, concussion, sprained shoulder, road rash on face, lost part of my right ear.

Sorry, but no sympathy from me for whining about lawyer tabs.

BBD

Preaching to the choir here, I know, but this is why I NEVER install a front wheel without tightening it properly. It's either totally loose and will fall out or it will be properly tight. It's for the exact scenario you describe - forgetting it's not properly tight.

Glad your accident wasn't worse.

It's also a good lesson on why cheap, crappy skewers aren't worth the powder to blow them up.

[AngryScientist]

personally, i like the tabs because they add a layer of confidence when my bike is riding on the car roof at 75mph. i'm not a pro though, and i will likely never have a pro style wheel change during a race, so there's that.

what i think is important is universal enforcement of the rule, or disposal of it. make it fair, either everyone has them, or everyone does not; spotty enforcement of the rules is the worst strategy because it's not fair to everyone. IMO.

[AgilisMerlin]

when we meet, pardon me when staring at your ears.

just a thought



lost part of my right ear.



BBD

[krismac23]

As I read the rule, if the manufacturer were to grind off the tabs, the teams wouldn't be breaking any rules.

Regardless if the rule has merit, it seems like the UCI should be focusing on bigger issues than lawyer tabs.

Exactly.

[goonster]

The fact that the UCI is focused on enforcing this rule shows you where their priorities are. Stupid.
Can't believe I'm defending the UCI, but:

Priorities have nothing to do with it. It's not like they are enforcing this rule at the expense of others. If the rule is there, it's worth enforcing universally.

Personally, I grind the lawyer tabs off my bikes. (None of which have disc brakes.)

[goonster]

Maybe the Protour teams should consider Rivendell Roadeos, No lawyer's lips:hello:
Grant was sued by a Bridgestone rider who tried to bunnyhop over something with an inadequately tightened front skewer, so he does not spec that lightly.

Apparently there is very clear precedent in U.S. case law that an absence of lawyer lips does not constitute negligent or unsafe design.

[oldpotatoe]

I like "lawyer" tabs. It's not a stupid rule. On a ride many years ago in Daytona Bch, Fl, a rider just in front of me lost his front wheel. Am sure it was his fault some way, but he was killed in front of all of us. I'll never forget seeing him rolled over and over underneath a car. We have lots of rules in this country that protect us from our own stupidity or careless actions. This is just another one. It might save a few lives. Maybe next time you grab your bike off the rear of your car, while in a hurry to get ready for a ride, you forget to tighten up your front skewer, and those tabs that keep your wheel from coming off could save you from a nasty fall or worse. Stuff happens to all of us. And I understand why it's a pain to racers.

Gotta agree with the above.

Had a guy on local ride, lift up his front wheel, type thing going over some railroad tracks, wheel came out. Didn't die but got really f__c__ed up.
So it means ya gotta unscrew the QR to get the wheel in, then screw it back down. Since we really aren't concerned about that 10 second wheel change in the local 'world championship' sunday afternoon ride, I think it's NO big deal. Plus if ya don't like 'em, file 'em off.

[fiamme red]

Maybe the Protour teams should consider Rivendell Roadeos, No lawyer's lips:hello:My Rivendell Romulus (made in Japan) has lawyer lips.

[fuzzalow]

Lawyer tabs on forks are a nuisance to me and I dremel them off every one of my bikes. I do it because I see it as emblematic of how the industry has to dumb down equipment to safeguard themselves from the incompetence of the average user. And in most regards, the average user holds true to this form and never disappoints. So lawyer tabs are completely warranted and understandable.

Just not for me - y'know it's kinda lika personal responsibility and freedom thing.;)

It can be astonishing what people don't know and yet think they do. My story:

After finishing a ride and warming down meandering home through the quiet streets of my neighborhood, I came across another rider. Cannondale Saeco Team bike. Red anodized QR levers sticking way out, made me think of the James Bond Aston Martin DB5 wheel knockoff tire shredder gadget.

I asked him to stop by the side of the road for a moment so I could look at something, namely his QR levers. He says he's been riding for 20 years and knows what he's doing. I reply that if he doesn't approve I will put things back the way they were. Promise.

I open the lever, back off the skewer nut a few turns and close the lever. Nice and tight to the forkend and between the chain & seat stays. James Bond shredder no more.

As you might guess, this guy tightened his wheels onto his lovely red Team Saeco bike by using the lever as, essentially half a wingnut, turning tightness into the skewer rod rather than using the cam by flipping the lever open or shut. That's why the levers stuck out as much as they formerly did, he couldn't get enough leverage to make it tight with the "handle" so close to the spokes. Remarkable, but I was glad to help.

So for all riders like Saeco Team guy, this tabs for you.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . the incompetence of the average user. And in most regards, the average user holds true to this form and never disappoints.

. . . thanks for that. I had never realized how dumb I am. :crap:

So what's it like to be perfect? :rolleyes:

BBD

[bironi]

I wonder if we will see a new quick release design in the near future.

[PQJ]

snip

One man's dumbing down is another man's life saver. They seem like an eminently reasonable safety enhancement to me. I've never understood the vitriol against lawyer tabs amongst us (mostly) amateurs. Sure, if you wanna file them off, have at it, but railing against them is just silly.

A riding buddy who happens to be an expert mechanic did some work on my bike and took the liberty of filing the lawyer tabs off the fork, without first asking. I really like him and never said anything other than 'thank you.' However, I wish he would've asked first since, although I inflate my tires/check QR's/etc before every ride, I probably would have opted to just keep them on; I can almost always spare the ~ extra 2 seconds it takes to remove and replace the wheel.

[Tony T]

I can see the reason for filing off the safety feature if you're on the road and swapping in a new wheel and need to save seconds in a race. Other than that, I don't see the problem. I see a bigger issue in seat-belt laws (other than requirements for minors)

[fuzzalow]

. . . thanks for that. I had never realized how dumb I am. :crap:

So what's it like to be perfect? :rolleyes:

BBD

Oh c'mon BBD, you know that this wasn't targeted to you or virtually any enthusiast cyclist found here on this forum. I recognize a delineation between the Mass market and the enthusiast cycling market. Of which the so called serious cyclist is yet a subset further still. Isn't the determinative factor how much you know and your experience that separates you as cyclist from an average user? As the Saeco Team guy story illustrates, discretionary income doesn't buy your way out from being an average user.

Before CPSC, laywers and John Howard invented lawyer tabs in the 1980's, they did not previously exist in bicycling.

There are things, like how to use a QR skewer and the mechanical sense and road worthiness required of your bike that a cyclist must know as part of taking that machine out into traffic and is an inescapable part of cycling. Safety and survivability depend on that machine and is the one mechanical thing that I can control. If a cyclist doesn't think that is important, then they surely have greater faith in fate than I. So I don't screw that part up. Lawyer tabs are not meant for me.

Don't be silly - I don't rail against lawyer tabs, I take 5 minutes and dremel them off. I have no issue with them being there because their reason for being is not an affront to me personally. I am part of a much larger and diverse consumer market in bicycles and the tabs safeguard the broad market.

No one on this forum would strike me as an average user unless it was their choice to be willfully ignorant. And in that case, the lawyer tabs are there to marginally increase their odds.

[pbarry]

I was late for first period in high school, hauling butt on my Geminiani road bike. I looked down and saw one of my Gnutti QR levers was open. Rather than stop and take care of it, I leaned sideways and attempted to close it while in motion, (the impatience of youth). I did get it closed but my fingers went into the spokes, hand whipped around and hit the fork and down I went. Nothing broken, and probably less serious than if the wheel had popped out. Still, checking QR's before a ride has been a habit since.

[torquer]

... lost part of my right ear.
BBD
Total thread drift, I know, but that reminds me, Mike Tyson will be on Law & Order: SVU tonight.

[goonster]

I can see the reason for filing off the safety feature if you're on the road and swapping in a new wheel and need to save seconds in a race. Other than that, I don't see the problem.
The problem is that the tabs run counter to the intent and function of the quick release skewer. Furthermore, they require that the skewer nut be loosened and retightened every time the wheel is removed, which is a trial and error process, and this introduces the risk of an improperly adjusted skewer every time you reinstall the wheel (even if the risk of the wheel falling out fully is reduced).

The primary purpose of the quick release is not to save seconds in a race, it is to eliminate the need for tools, and to add convenience.

Having read the horror stories here, I can accept that the tabs are a reasonable compromise for those who may not trust their ability to have the wheel installed properly at all times, but I also reject the notion that a fork without tabs (on a bike with rim brakes) is somehow unsafe.

By the way, I do not consider myself immune to this danger, having once discovered, after a ride, that the front axle's track nuts were only finger tight.

[torquer]

Back on topic, the issue isn't that the UCI requires the tabs, just that if they are a standard part of the bike, teams can't modify them by grinding them off.
So, two options come to mind: wider opening QRs (as suggested early on in this thread), or "standard" forks without tabs.

I always thought the tabs were a legal requirement, but that doesn't seem to be the case, since plenty forumites note that their bikes came with tabless forks. (Track bikes, too, I would expect.) So why couldn't manufacturers offer some "equipe" version of their team bikes (maybe actually selling it in some less-litigious market) for UCI certification?

[fiamme red]

I can see the reason for filing off the safety feature if you're on the road and swapping in a new wheel and need to save seconds in a race. Other than that, I don't see the problem. I see a bigger issue in seat-belt laws (other than requirements for minors)I sometimes run errands on a bike with a quick-release front wheel, and make a succession of quick stops at the supermarket, post office, bakery, etc. I remove the wheel at each stop when I lock up my bike. It's nice not to have lawyer tabs on these occasions.

[bambam]

I sure if they were required in no time mechanics would simply memorize how many turns are needed and tighten as needed.

On a side note. It doesn't need to be QR. On my second ride on a new bike with a front track hub I dismounted to walk to the curb and hit the crossing button. When I dismounted I picked up the front end and when I put it back on the ground I heard an odd clank sound. One side was loose. No lawyer tabs either. Re-tightened and continued. Still not sur eif I forgot to tighhten that side or if it shook loose. Needless to say I'm keeping an eye on it.

[Tony T]

I sometimes run errands on a bike with a quick-release front wheel, and make a succession of quick stops at the supermarket, post office, bakery, etc. I remove the wheel at each stop when I lock up my bike.

Good point.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Touchy, touchy . . . :rolleyes:

Even experienced cyclists can forget things. That's what I did and I've been riding for 30 years.

Even the best of us can acquire bad habits--like Saeco bike guy who may indeed also be an "experienced rider." If you want to file yours off, then go ahead. I just hope you never, EVER forget to tighten the QR's for any reason, because that may be all it takes--one time--for you to learn a painful lesson.

BBD


Oh c'mon BBD, you know that this wasn't targeted to you or virtually any enthusiast cyclist found here on this forum. I recognize a delineation between the Mass market and the enthusiast cycling market. Of which the so called serious cyclist is yet a subset further still. Isn't the determinative factor how much you know and your experience that separates you as cyclist from an average user? As the Saeco Team guy story illustrates, discretionary income doesn't buy your way out from being an average user.

Before CPSC, laywers and John Howard invented lawyer tabs in the 1980's, they did not previously exist in bicycling.

There are things, like how to use a QR skewer and the mechanical sense and road worthiness required of your bike that a cyclist must know as part of taking that machine out into traffic and is an inescapable part of cycling. Safety and survivability depend on that machine and is the one mechanical thing that I can control. If a cyclist doesn't think that is important, then they surely have greater faith in fate than I. So I don't screw that part up. Lawyer tabs are not meant for me.

Don't be silly - I don't rail against lawyer tabs, I take 5 minutes and dremel them off. I have no issue with them being there because their reason for being is not an affront to me personally. I am part of a much larger and diverse consumer market in bicycles and the tabs safeguard the broad market.

No one on this forum would strike me as an average user unless it was their choice to be willfully ignorant. And in that case, the lawyer tabs are there to marginally increase their odds.

[fuzzalow]

My, my . . .Touchy, touchy . . . :rolleyes:
No, that is not even remotely correct. Do not falsely ascribe a motive to what I wrote. Address the issue.

Even experienced cyclists can forget things. That's what I did and I've been riding for 30 years.
Yes you did and I have not faulted you for a simple human error that had outsized consequences.

I am perplexed as to how my reference to the “average user” in the bike industry somehow pertains to you. Rest assured, the topic I am discussing is bicycle safety regulation and its perverse application by the UCI. It is not an indictment of you and your circumstance with an incorrectly secured wheel.

Even the best of us can acquire bad habits--like Saeco bike guy who may indeed also be an "experienced rider."
No, the best of us do not acquire bad habits. That is precisely the reason why “the best of us” are not the same as the “average user” - “the best of us” have developed skills, is cognizant of the environment in which we operate and know, both how and the importance of, properly installed equipment.

If you consider riders like Saeco Team guy an “experienced rider” then that is your prerogative for how you choose to dilute the term “experienced rider”. Under that definition, come down in the spring and ride the NYC Five-Boro Bike Tour and feast in the multitudes. Let me know what you think afterwards.

If you want to file yours off, then go ahead. I just hope you never, EVER forget to tighten the QR's for any reason, because that may be all it takes--one time--for you to learn a painful lesson.

BBD

Thanks, I wish you well also. Never say never, of course. But I know very well where I stand. I have every reason to be prudent as do we all. Nothing like having one's own skin in the game as motivation to be mindful.

Disclaimer: None of this is personal. It is all just conversation. I trust no one is upset by what is said. That's all for me on this one. Out.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Let's go for a ride. I'll check your skewers and you check mine!

:p

BBD