lemond training for world record?

[ada@prorider.or]

weel here a pic of greg lemond in the windtunnel
i think he is not going to break the world hour record

cees

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . a world hour record for Masters?

If he is indeed training to try and beat it, then more power to him!

BBDave

[Dr. Doofus]

is he hiding lucho herrera under his jersey?

[Argos]

I do not think he'll be breaking any masters records with his mitochondrial disease, lack of Grand fundos and overall 'nishole-ness.

[ada@prorider.or]

is he hiding lucho herrera under his jersey?

i think he ate a icecream together with jan ulrich!!!
:banana: :banana:

[Fixed]

bro come on I for one think he was great and I'd like to see him get back in shape he was one tough dude, eveybody has to have dreams and I bet he has made most of his i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[Kevin]

He would easily break the 1 hour world record........................... We are talking about a donut eating contest, aren't we? ;)

Kevin

[dauwhe]

Man, LeMond was a GREAT racer. Three Tours de France, the World Championship (was it twice?)... I'm glad to see he's still riding his bike.

Ullrich IS a great racer. He has been on the Tour podium more times than LA :) And I imagine that Mr. Ullrich is way faster than anyone who's ever posted on this message board!

I wish the best of luck to both of them!

Dave Cramer
a very slow rider in Brattleboro, Vermont

[rphetteplace]

he must have the same trainer as me......the pilsbury doughboy

[David Kirk]

Tough crowd.......I wonder how many world champs or multiple tour winners we have in this group?..........hmmmm? Let's see.........yeah that would be none.

Dave

[Big Dan]

Come on Dave, there's got to be a handful of Tour winners hiding as forum members....... :p

I'll take my Lemond out for a ride tomorrow......... :bike:

[Ti Designs]

i think he ate a icecream together with jan ulrich!!!


Yuch! As many things as Jan Ulrich is, an ice cream topping he's not!

[Bill Bove]

LeMond, with all his fatness could still beat the pants off of anybody in this forum on their best day. Anybody. And he was clean. Are there any other American Tour winners who can truthfully say that?

LeMond may have damaged his reputation with his remarks re LA but in his day he was highly regarded among his contemperarys. Again are there any other American tour winners who can say that?

[jerk]

LeMond, with all his fatness could still beat the pants off of anybody in this forum on their best day. Anybody. And he was clean. Are there any other American Tour winners who can truthfully say that?

LeMond may have damaged his reputation with his remarks re LA but in his day he was highly regarded among his contemperarys. Again are there any other American tour winners who can say that?


ahmm...clean? compared to who? never mind.

jerk

[Bill Bove]

Showered after every ride, unlike all those stinky Euros :D LeMond never tested positive during OR after his career :D

Maybe, maybe you, your jerkness on a good day could beat the fat LeMond. When I worked for a LeMond sposor in the late 90's everybody who dealt with his dad would say "what a jerk" but nobody ever had anything but praise for Greg. Super nice guy. I think he could have won the tour the year he was called back by his DS to let Hinault win #5, he would have won DelGado's and Roche's tours and he may have won one more before Indurain started his run. Too bad, he coulda ben a contenda.

[ada@prorider.or]

LeMond, with all his fatness could still beat the pants off of anybody in this forum on their best day. Anybody. And he was clean. Are there any other American Tour winners who can truthfully say that?

LeMond may have damaged his reputation with his remarks re LA but in his day he was highly regarded among his contemperarys. Again are there any other American tour winners who can say that?


well greg was one of the best guy's i ever worked with
very honest rider and extermly motivated
i really like him a lot
i always wunderd how greg keeps his mouth shut when lance where just coming and in when lance asked what lance differ from greg he said well i am better

lance meaby won more tour the france but for me greg is the champion always nice for other people and a great hart

even when we where at a hotel room with a famous team mate somewhere in europa and greg showed me all the weird medicine the other where using he said do you understand those guy and i have to compete with them ,

[inthegutter]

even when we where at a hotel room with a famous team mate somewhere in europa and greg showed me all the weird medicine the other where using he said do you understand those guy and i have to compete with them ,

Sounds like a great ploy when someone inadvertantly stumbles on his stash... :p

I understand the guy was one of the best to ever race a bike but that was THIS guy...
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45293


to say he could smoke anyone as he currently exists in his 'camois seam busting' form I think is incorrect. It underestimates certain people on this forum and overestimates years of racing and great genetics, especially considering those years were followed by years of being sedentary and gaining weight.

[Sandy]

Man, LeMond was a GREAT racer. Three Tours de France, the World Championship (was it twice?)... I'm glad to see he's still riding his bike.

Ullrich IS a great racer. He has been on the Tour podium more times than LA :) And I imagine that Mr. Ullrich is way faster than anyone who's ever posted on this message board!

I wish the best of luck to both of them!

Dave Cramer
a very slow rider in Brattleboro, Vermont

LeMond was GREAT and Ullrich IS GREAT. Too many people dismiss both, especially Ullrich. Both have remarkable accomplishments.


Sandy

[saab2000]

I have a good friend who rides here in the US as a Cat 1. Not too bad. He works for Trek and has some contact with Greg Lemond in this capacity. Last year they all went on a ride in southwestern Wisconsin and this guy I know (who can ride with anyone he wants - he is as talented as some pros I know in Europe) said Greg Lemond held his own unbelievably well.

He is fat and out of shape, but gets on his bike and can hang with Cat 1s who are riding pretty hard and up some good rolling terrain, sometimes even pushing them.

I don't know if Greg Lemond was clean or not when he raced. But he was a 1 in a million specimen, like Lance. He woulda won anyway.

[Fixed]

bro one thing you don't loose is how to read a race something that can't be taught.i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[bluesea]

"I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him"

[vaxn8r]

Sounds like a great ploy when someone inadvertantly stumbles on his stash... :p

I understand the guy was one of the best to ever race a bike but that was THIS guy...
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45293


to say he could smoke anyone as he currently exists in his 'camois seam busting' form I think is incorrect. It underestimates certain people on this forum and overestimates years of racing and great genetics, especially considering those years were followed by years of being sedentary and gaining weight.
Looks like a Calfee to me. Yet another example of how smart Greg was. Way ahead of is time. :)

Lemond was more talented than LA. Had some bad luck mid career or would easily have won two more and should have had one more on the front end. LA arguably made some of his luck by surrounding himself with talent.

I don't get why some of you guys rip on GL. Maybe too young to know your history....

BTW, Hampsten quit cycling at the same time as Lemond and he also said he was unable to compete any longer with the other riders who were doping. When Andy says it it's OK....when GL says it some have a problem with it. Maybe GL picked the wrong time to say what he said but it doesn't mean it wasn't true.

[Dr. Doofus]

lemond was is and shall be doof's cycling hero

that book that kent gordis wrote that has lemond's name on it is still the only english-language cycling book worth owning


doof just thinks his "I am the egg man" profile is funny

doof is a mean guy who likes to make fun of fat dudes in lyrcra

[Zard]

Look at that photo. Even with his extra weight (Frankly, he probably isn't any heavier than most 44+year old american males) his positon still looks better than just about any cyclist I have ever seen. So relaxed and natural.

Oh, and I bet he could still dust just about everyone on this forum, at least on the flats!!

[JeffreyG]

lance meaby won more tour the france but for me greg is the champion always nice for other people and a great hart

,

Broken English has never been spoken better

[manet]

less lemond, look not for lance.

[djg]

[QUOTE=Big Dan]Come on Dave, there's got to be a handful of Tour winners hiding as forum members....... :p

The Tour de 'Toona doesn't count.

Not that I won that either.

[djg]

Looks like a Calfee to me. Yet another example of how smart Greg was. Way ahead of is time. :)

Lemond was more talented than LA. Had some bad luck mid career or would easily have won two more and should have had one more on the front end. LA arguably made some of his luck by surrounding himself with talent.



Lemond was great--no doubt about it. I still have my old copy of Winning with GL on the cover. And he did indeed have some very bad luck mid-career, coupled with all sorts of intra-team problems earlier. But I'm always mystified by folks who ascribe to him tours or other races he didn't atually win. It's racing. Things happen. Bad luck, illness, punctures, and, once-in-a-great-while, a shotgun. The ease of disaster is part of what makes victory--especially in a grand tour--what it is. Greg "would easily have won two more"? Maybe or maybe not. Remember the drama of the comeback time-trial win against Fifi? Greg could just as easily have won one less. If the wind is different, if Fifi doesn't have horrendous saddle-sores, if Greg's jury-rigged aero bars slip, if Greg punctures, if Greg is just a little off, if Fifi is just a little more on ... if, if, if. Close as could be. No forgone conclusions. Greg won, Fignon lost.

I say this not to diminish GL's palmares (as if I could). He was a real champion. But he was a real champion because of what he did, not because of what he might have done.

[andy mac]

Sounds like a great ploy when someone inadvertantly stumbles on his stash... :p

I understand the guy was one of the best to ever race a bike but that was THIS guy...
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45293


to say he could smoke anyone as he currently exists in his 'camois seam busting' form I think is incorrect. It underestimates certain people on this forum and overestimates years of racing and great genetics, especially considering those years were followed by years of being sedentary and gaining weight.


What an inane argument. Could Lemond, years after his prime beat, somebody still training hard? Who cares? I’m sure he doesn’t.

When he wanted to be, he was the man. Now he’s moved on with his life. Sounds like good advice for a few here…
:butt:

[Bill Bove]

doof is a mean guy who likes to make fun of fat dudes in lyrcra
Yeah, you bastich my feelings are still hurt from the open house two years ago.

[bluesea]

Muhammed Ali could have whooped Tyson's butt. :beer:

[David Kirk]

I can say one thing for sure...........I love the way Lemond looks on the bike. So balanced, so powerful, so correct. I wish I looked like that.

Dave

[andy mac]

Muhammed Ali could have whooped Tyson's butt. :beer:

and people on this forum could now beat up muhammed a... errrr forget it.

[Fixed]

bro I'm a fan but did anyone notice the cleat pos.? on G.L. in the pic.?cheers :beer:

[bluesea]

bro I'm a fan but did anyone notice the cleat pos.? on G.L. in the pic.?cheers :beer:

Didn't he coin "wiping the 'cleat' off the front of your shoes"? :D

[Spicoli]

But without Lemond I really doubt you would have LA being what he is today. He made it possible for the arrogant American to crush all. I do think he could have won so much more if he did not have to deal with being a guy from a Country that has no idea what a cyclist is. Lemond had many more obstacles to deal with and I am not talking about cancer or shotguns. They both are something to be proud of and imagine if they could work together with up and coming American talent. What a wealth of knowledge between them both. :confused:

[vaxn8r]

Lemond was great--no doubt about it. I still have my old copy of Winning with GL on the cover. And he did indeed have some very bad luck mid-career, coupled with all sorts of intra-team problems earlier. But I'm always mystified by folks who ascribe to him tours or other races he didn't atually win. It's racing. Things happen. Bad luck, illness, punctures, and, once-in-a-great-while, a shotgun. The ease of disaster is part of what makes victory--especially in a grand tour--what it is. Greg "would easily have won two more"? Maybe or maybe not. Remember the drama of the comeback time-trial win against Fifi? Greg could just as easily have won one less. If the wind is different, if Fifi doesn't have horrendous saddle-sores, if Greg's jury-rigged aero bars slip, if Greg punctures, if Greg is just a little off, if Fifi is just a little more on ... if, if, if. Close as could be. No forgone conclusions. Greg won, Fignon lost.

I say this not to diminish GL's palmares (as if I could). He was a real champion. But he was a real champion because of what he did, not because of what he might have done.

I agree with you completely. Still, it's fun to speculate and it doesn't diminish what he accomplished to do so. IMO the years of Roche and Delgado were vacuum years. Nobody to fill the void of a true champion. The better rider does not always win but Lemond was far better than either of those guys. Lead shot in his pericardium or not.

[saab2000]

Lemond was better than Roche or Delgado, but the 1987 Tour was a great one and Roche is a real champion. Delgado too. Real classy.

Whether GL would have or could have won more is really not the issue. He won 3 times and that is an incredible achievement. It is probable that he had more talent than his record shows.

I came up in cycling at the same time he was starting to win big races. It was really neat and as much as I respect Lance for his incredible achievements and discipline, Greg Lemond was one of my personal idols, along with Pedro Delgado and Stephen Roche.

Lance got a bit lucky in that he caught the attention of corporate America much more than Greg Lemond did. This has made him very wealthy and happened at a time when cycling got much bigger in the US.

As great as Lance's accomplishments are, I think Greg's are even better because he cycled in a different era. GL paved the road on which Lance rode, IMHO.

[Fixed]

bro saab well said as always... but wasn't there another irish dude who was pretty good back then as well? cheers :beer:

[saab2000]

Kelly was awesome too. You oughta check out the Sean Kelly DVD if you can. I have one and it is pretty cool. He rode with Merckx, Hinault, Lemond, etc. Really a legend. He slew many and won many races on Vitus aluminum bikes.

[Zard]

Sean Kelly. Another great champion.

Irish cyclist Paul Kimmage wrote a book that I think was called "A Rough Ride." A good read.

In it he wrote about doing a training ride with Kelly that was harder than any race let alone training ride that he had ever done. It was a normal day's work for Kelly. He couldn't understand how Kelly could subject himself to that kind of suffering.

Same thing for Lemond. He wrote about being passed by Lemond during a race with Lemond grinding away in obvious discomfort and diarrehea running down his legs. Kimmage wrote that he would never have continued on.

In the end, in addition to their conditioning and strength it was their desire to win, willpower and ability to suffer that seperated them (and any other great cyclist) from the rest of the peloton.

[Big Dan]

Watch this video gang....

[Ray]

Watch this video gang....

How?

[bluesea]

Watch this video gang....

Watched it again about a month ago. One of my favorites. Delgado had put himself into a 7+ min. deficit by stage 3 or 4, and still made it to the podium. He had the strongest team, and rode with class. Indurain showed himself with a long solo break/win, riding with clips.

[manet]

less lemond, look not for lance!

[Fixed]

bro that make me want to wear my system u jersey sunday I wore my old lemond 's zed jersey today, guys around here don't want those old jerseys I always take them or look for them on ebay .cheers :beer:

[JasonF]

Watch this video gang....

I have an old stash of Tour videos from '88-'92, and the '89 Tour was by far my favorite. I was 19 when the '89 Tour happened, and I remember thinking "man, these guys are OLD!" Now when I watch the videos, my reaction is the opposite.

My wife and I joke that you know you're an adult when professional athletes look younger than you do.

[Cadence230]

I can say one thing for sure...........I love the way Lemond looks on the bike. So balanced, so powerful, so correct. I wish I looked like that.

Dave
Now ain't that the truth. Lemond and Moser. I started riding emulating those two. They just looked proper.

[Fixed]

bro class and style got lost to fashion and dough i.m.h.o. cheers

[Kevan]

there'll be a new American kid on the block, Lance will have by then collected his gut (somehow I don't think so, but anyway...), he too might say something inappropriate about the new whipper-snapper, and a new generation of us Serottans will pretty much be saying the same stuff as was said here.

Which means... absolutely nothing I guess, other than perhaps this is the folly of fans, and their heros new and old.

[djg]

I agree with you completely. Still, it's fun to speculate and it doesn't diminish what he accomplished to do so. IMO the years of Roche and Delgado were vacuum years. Nobody to fill the void of a true champion. The better rider does not always win but Lemond was far better than either of those guys. Lead shot in his pericardium or not.

Fair enough, and part of what being a fan is all about. I guess I agree that Roche and Delgado weren't quite what came before or after, but they were legitimate champions in my book.

Somebody mentioned that other Irish guy. I guess he won a couple of races. Or a couple hundred.

[Dr. Doofus]

oofd thinks that greg lemond, circa 83-86, was the best rider he's ever seen, maybe will ever see (saw one stage of the coors in 86, so yeah, actually saw lemond, hinault, anderson, argentin...all the studs getting ready for the worlds)

[shinomaster]

LeMond is the reason I got so into road riding. When I met him here in Portland he was as nice a guy as you could hope to meet. Just because he said Lance was a Junkie doesn't make him any worse of a racer.

[BBB]

Greg LeMond was an absolute champ.

While his opinions re Armstrong are always going to cause division, it is sad to hear a previous LeMond admirer and now firm Discovery/Armstrong sycophant/publicity vehicle, Graham Watson say this in his Armstrong Tribute, "...but his inexperience still showed through...but what if LeMond had been willing or able to pass on some friendly advice?"

Able? Are you kidding?

[dehoopta]

Reminds me of a discussion from Swartzky's

"Who would win between da' Bears and a team of Ditkas?"

"Are we talking regular sized Ditkas or mini-Ditkas?"

[BigDaddySmooth]

A recent article about LA suggested that if he became a couch potato and did not train and then rode against a college-aged cyclist who trained hard for a year, LA could ride w/him. The gist of the article was that LA VO2 max would never dip below 60 and most of us, no matter how hard we trained, could not get it above 60. Well, GL's VO2 max was purportedly higher than LA's so the theory would hold true for GL. The only thing that would possibly "hurt" GL was the weight he gained. The LA article assumed a couch potato Lance would not gain weight. Yeah, right. Now, how much GL's mitochodrial disease would affect him is a matter of conjecture. The disease forced an early retirement from the pro ranks, where 5% is the difference from winning the Tour to wearing the Lanterne Rouge. However, it may not affect him as much on a lesser scale, i.e. training for a one-day event.

[William]

Reminds me of a discussion from Swartzky's

"Who would win between da' Bears and a team of Ditkas?"

"Are we talking regular sized Ditkas or mini-Ditkas?"


Well Bo-hb, are we talkin regular sized EPO injected Dit-kas? Or a group of chimeric twin mini Dit-kas?


William ;)

[Dr. Doofus]

A recent article about LA suggested that if he became a couch potato and did not train and then rode against a college-aged cyclist who trained hard for a year, LA could ride w/him. The gist of the article was that LA VO2 max would never dip below 60 and most of us, no matter how hard we trained, could not get it above 60. Well, GL's VO2 max was purportedly higher than LA's so the theory would hold true for GL. The only thing that would possibly "hurt" GL was the weight he gained. The LA article assumed a couch potato Lance would not gain weight. Yeah, right. Now, how much GL's mitochodrial disease would affect him is a matter of conjecture. The disease forced an early retirement from the pro ranks, where 5% is the difference from winning the Tour to wearing the Lanterne Rouge. However, it may not affect him as much on a lesser scale, i.e. training for a one-day event.

genetics are, as it is, a real *****

a gifted athlete has a very high base level that will not change much, even with significant detraining

similarly, gifted sprinters are still ahead of the average population with regards to endurance ability -- a 175-pound NBA point guard with a 48-inch vertical will still run a mile faster than most seniors on Division 3 track squads...although he would be going into the red at a faster rate, and running at a higher percentage of his maximum sustainable power for the distance, his huge total power output would give him enough of a "cushion" to beat a less gifted endurance athlete (simply consult a good exercise physiology textbook for a more detailed explanation -- the short of it is that the guy who played football and ran a 49 in the 400 would still be a better cyclist than you are). doof was reminded of this simple brutal fact of athletic inequality when his 5:15 miler, who had achieved a good high school level through three seasons of hard work and year-round training, ran a grudge match 1200 against his state finalist :47 400m man...the better athlete won....

bottom line? the guys who excel in sports as teenagers are the good athletes. period.*





* and don't give me that about lance not being any good at ball sports so he took up triathlon...if he had worked on basketball, for example, he would have been a defensive demon as a high schooler...with that build and aerobic engine, a few years of work on defensive fundamentals would have produced a package that could shut down many a quicker kid...look at Adam Goucher -- a great runner who was a fine HS basketball player simply because he could hustle harder than everyone else....

[andy mac]

and don't discount his technique compared with other seemingly fitter and leaner athletes, even those on the forum who have read all 567 pages dedicated to the subject of pedal stroke. "use the power wisely my son."

2 good rules to live by:

1. beware the small bouncer
2. beware the fat ex-athlete

[BigDaddySmooth]

genetics are, as it is, a real *****

a gifted athlete has a very high base level that will not change much, even with significant detraining

similarly, gifted sprinters are still ahead of the average population with regards to endurance ability -- a 175-pound NBA point guard with a 48-inch vertical will still run a mile faster than most seniors on Division 3 track squads...although he would be going into the red at a faster rate, and running at a higher percentage of his maximum sustainable power for the distance, his huge total power output would give him enough of a "cushion" to beat a less gifted endurance athlete (simply consult a good exercise physiology textbook for a more detailed explanation -- the short of it is that the guy who played football and ran a 49 in the 400 would still be a better cyclist than you are). doof was reminded of this simple brutal fact of athletic inequality when his 5:15 miler, who had achieved a good high school level through three seasons of hard work and year-round training, ran a grudge match 1200 against his state finalist :47 400m man...the better athlete won....

bottom line? the guys who excel in sports as teenagers are the good athletes. period.*





* and don't give me that about lance not being any good at ball sports so he took up triathlon...if he had worked on basketball, for example, he would have been a defensive demon as a high schooler...with that build and aerobic engine, a few years of work on defensive fundamentals would have produced a package that could shut down many a quicker kid...look at Adam Goucher -- a great runner who was a fine HS basketball player simply because he could hustle harder than everyone else....

Dr D,
I must disagree on your last point. LA probably does not possess the hand-eye coordination required in American team sports. Just because he has genetic aerobic gifts does not mean any sport he set his mind to he'd be good at. Also, had he chosen to run marathons or swim exclusively, does not guarantee success in those sports. Swimmers are huge (6'4+) and marathoners are tiny. A 5'10 165# LA would not succeed in either of those sports. The sport where he could succeed would have been x-c skiing where his size is about optimal for that sport.

Finally, success at the highest level in one sport often does not translate into success in another sport, Michael Jordan and Laurent Jalabert (2:55 marathon) point that out.

[William]

Finally, success at the highest level in one sport often does not translate into success in another sport, Michael Jordan and Laurent Jalabert (2:55 marathon) point that out.

Too Tall jones & Boxing
Mark Gastenau(sp?) & Boxing
Mike Tyson & Prison sport...ah, nevermind. :rolleyes:



William

[Lost Weekend]

Ya fergot Tonya Harding and boxing :banana:

[Dr. Doofus]

Dr D,
I must disagree on your last point. LA probably does not possess the hand-eye coordination required in American team sports. Just because he has genetic aerobic gifts does not mean any sport he set his mind to he'd be good at. Also, had he chosen to run marathons or swim exclusively, does not guarantee success in those sports. Swimmers are huge (6'4+) and marathoners are tiny. A 5'10 165# LA would not succeed in either of those sports. The sport where he could succeed would have been x-c skiing where his size is about optimal for that sport.

Finally, success at the highest level in one sport often does not translate into success in another sport, Michael Jordan and Laurent Jalabert (2:55 marathon) point that out.

the point is that genetic aerobic gifts go a long way.

asking what kind of backup point guard LA would have been at 17 is as worthless a question as that of "what if eleanor roosevelt could fly" (SNL reference). it was just an example of how good genetics can overcome a lot of other disadvantages (just like as a kid with great hand-eye skills and a terrible VO2 can be an effective athlete in a sport that requires high degrees of neuro-muscular and cardio-vascular ability -- like hockey). now, in that example, doof thought that if LA had worked his butt off, he would have been a decent (in the big picture) HS basketball player. not great. not even good. decent. but decent is still better than 90% of all high school kids (meaning, you're decent if you make the team and sit the bench as the 8th man, and you can be proud because you're still better at this than 90% of the total male population at your school). athletic ability can compensate for a lot.

the jordan example, actually, illustrates this point perfectly. with no specialized preparation, the guy hits .200 against professional pitchers. that's great natural athletic ability. there are lots of D3 and D2 college baseball players who couldn't hit .200 against AA pitching. and steve bauer was a stud junior hockey player who was just a bit too small, and found something else to do with his time...

it would be foolish to say that an elite athlete in one sport can simply jump into another sport and perform at the same level. the energy dynamics and specific skill sets of any sport are all unique and highly demanding as one progresses up the competitive chain. however, it is entirely accurate to say that an elite athlete can jump into another sport and be better than an average athete with years of experience in that sport. genetics are, as it were, a *****




and one of the best swimmers doof ever saw -- a British runt named John Davey, was five ten, 160. ask any guy in the Big Ten from 85-88 about him....

[William]

Ya fergot Tonya Harding and boxing :banana:

I've tried to forget. Oh how I've tried..... :rolleyes:



William ;)

[bcm119]

and one of the best swimmers doof ever saw -- a British runt named John Davey, was five ten, 160. ask any guy in the Big Ten from 85-88 about him....

He was coaching Iowa up until a few years ago, no? I don't know what he swam, but at 5'10 I'll bet it wasn't the 50 free. The only champion swimmers I've seen under 6'2 swam 200 breaststroke and/or 400 im, ie Mike Barrowman.

[Dr. Doofus]

Davey was 1:36 200 free, 4:18 500 free, 1:46 200 fly, 3:45 400IM....

at the very highest level (NCAA finals, Olympic finals), taller swimmers, who have longer "hulls," have a hydrodynamic advantage (it has little to do with arm leverage...the hands are not paddles acting against fixed points...they are "props" that scull/pitch to create lift...its hand speed, not muscle strength)...but little guys with great stroke mechanics and high VO2s can motor...

doof recalls seeing a little guy kick a 51 fly in practice, and not with fins...scary...

[andy mac]

hey doof or any other swim gurus, i have been 'swimming' a bit lately as i have an injury that's keeping me from riding and running.

i've been doing some laps with a kickboard but my kick is so lame. firstly, i know i just need to get some distance in my legs but i also think my technique blows. any tips? do you keep legs straight or bent? lead with the knee? try to kick down on the water? it's it more efficient underwater, on the surface? should i rotate my hips?

so many questions... any tips much appreciated!!

cheers,

andy.

[Dr. Doofus]

andy --

first, kickboards are evil and useless if you are a swimmer. if you are a runner/cyclist looking to do something with your legs, they are ok.

why does the doof say this?

first, the kick is a three-plane movement that works in the context of what the whole body is doing during the stroke cycle. in the back, free, and fly, the kick helps sustain forward momentum and maintain body posture in the water -- its not propulsive. breast is a different matter. the kickboard screws everything up because it requires a swimmer to fix the horizontal plane, reducing the rotation of the hips, and throwing off what an athlete does normally when kicking as part of a whole stroke cycle.

if you're just kicking to keep some leg fitness:

1) "boil water" -- the feet don't come out of the water. it looks like its "boiling" behind you.

2) the movement starts from your hips: the hip rotates slightly, then the knee drops, then the quadriceps extend and bring the foot down (see why the kickboard screws things up? you simply can't rotate the hips to the same degree that you do when you are swimming)

3) you are kicking "down" under the water (not kicking down "on" to the water). pointing your toes helps (the water should naturally dorsalflex your foot for you, pointing your toe, unless you are like the doof and have terrible foot flexibility, which makes you a mean breast stroke kicker, but horrible at everything else)


do some web searches on kicking technique for some illustrations...words are not the best, here

[bcm119]

Kicking technique is tough to describe on the internet. Only hints I can give you are to let the power come from your hips, don't think about what your knees are doing, and your feet should be flexed like a ballet dancer, but loosely. I think the most common mistake non-swimmer make when trying to kick is that their legs are too tense, and they try to move them too deliberately, and most of them bend their knees too much. Don't rotate your body deliberately, but it should naturally rotate slightly from the hip movement.

* edited to echo what doof said about kickboards. Also, its interesting to note that some distance swimmers kick only enough to control the rotation of their bodies; they find that a strong kick has such a large oxygen requirement that it cancels out the benefit of added forward propulsion.

[manet]

one marathon does not a runner make. too many variables.
a sub-3 marathon is the status quos idea of a good run... eh.
ja ja should be 'pleased', nothing more. i have not read any of his
own words (as to how he felt...) so perhaps i'm just spitting up GU.

real runners run 10k, maybe 5k, maybe. miles are for repeats.

[Dr. Doofus]

man...you guys are a tough crowd, or you're all just nuts

this guy runs a marathon just for giggles and runs a time you bozos could only do with a few years of hard training...and he doesn't have a marathoner's body or muscles...ferrchrissakes he was a freakin sprinter....

but then again when you're under the examination of the champions of the serotta board, you better bring your "A" game....

[bcm119]

Davey was 1:36 200 free, 4:18 500 free, 1:46 200 fly, 3:35 400IM..

Thats impressive. You must have meant 3:45 400 im.