29er MTB?

[gabbard]

I have been seeing a lot of press about these lately. I have demo'd two different hardtails and there seems to be something there, but it is hard to separate the "mental" effect of a new/different bike from actual data.

Any of you riding one, and how does it compare to your old 26" wheeled bike - good or bad?

Steve

[zap]

Don't own one but I was lucky enough to test an Asylum (titus racer x) with a Maverick DUC fork with a 29'r kit installed. The frame geo's were perfect for me, but I have to tell you, it's one big ride with 29'r wheels. It rolled well over roots and rocks and I would say it did better than my mountain bikes with 26'rs. But I'm not sold on the agility yet. I really like tight, twisty single track so it's a big deal for me.

[huey]

I do not own a 29er, but I have ridden a few of them and they rock. I've ridden the Salsa Dos Niner, Surly KM, Soma's new 29er, Niners' scandium SS, and a Titus Racer-X 29er. A 29er will be my next mountain bike without a doubt. They feel as though they fit, Like you sit in them as opposed to being perched on top of them. I have ridden a variety of mountain bikes and 29ers as far as I can tell are better in every single way, especially if you are a taller rider. Niner has a new 853 steel EBB bike coming out that has cable guides and replaceable dropouts that allow you to go from gears to a single speed for only $799.00 retail. I have ridden their bikes and they are awesome. 29ers roll so much faster and just float over rocks and sand. The only disadvantage is in really tight singletrack, they are just a little bit slower. Please feel free to ask anymore questions.

As a comparison all of the above mentioned bikes had the same build kit on them for the most part. Rock Shox Reba 29er, King Kubs and HS, Thomson stem and post, XT drivetrain with XTR rapid fire. The Salsa is flexy, whippy, just not very reassuring for a larger rider. The surly, is really nice very solid, just heavy. The Soma is a nice steel ride, but it is slightly to small, the largest size they do is a 20" frame. I would ideally like a longer top tube. The Niner was awesome in every way. Very fast, light weight, and not whippy at all. It is amazing the ride difference between the Salsa and the Niner. I was expecting the Niner to be whippy based on my previous experience with the Salsa, but it wasn't. Also, the Niners' EBB did not creak and was very stiff. The Titus was awesome in every way, except that I couldn't keep it.

[billrick]

I sold my Moots YBB and Yeti ASR after riding a Surly Karate Monkey 29er for a few months. On my very first ride on the Monkey, I found myself clearing climbs that I had never made on my 26" wheels. Also, it is hard to describe the feeling of momentum, but the speed of these bikes on any flats more than made up for the loss of flickability in tight singletrack, imho. I love my IF 29er and it is now my only mt bike.

If you haven't found this discussion group yet, I highly recommend checking out the 29er board on mtbr.com. There are more reviews, ride reports, and rational discussions on the 29er phenomenon than you could ever read in a long, snow-bound weekend. This is straight from their FAQs, and is very accurate in my experience:

29" Pro's:

Rolling resistance (by some 10%)
Bearing resistance and wear (by some 10%)
Tire wear (by at least 10%)
Roll-over stability climbing and descending
Overall comfort over a ride
Grip and cornering balance
Traction
Pinch-flat resistance

26" Pro's:

Weight (300-400g lighter on the complete hardtail bike, all else being equal)
Due to this weigth advantage : faster acceleration, by around 2%
Wheelies are easier, the front lifts more easily.
Flickability in extremely tight corners (where walking would actually be faster)
Wheel stiffness, at least when using hubs of equal flange spacing

[cpg]

That's a great bike!

Curt

[davids]

I've got no personal experience, but...

I hear that 29ers work better for larger people. Maybe that's related to the 'flickability' issue billrick mentions? There's also a dearth of 29er full-suspension bikes that I find interesting. And I wouldn't consider a hardtail mountian bike (even as beautiful as that IF is!) I think that's slowly changing.

[Kirk Pacenti]

They ride great no doubt about it!

However, I think (650B) 27.5" would be better (for LOTS of reasons); but the short of it is, you'd get the best of both worlds. I'm working now with tire makers to make it happen. World domination has to start somewhere, right? :banana:

[DfCas]

I started in 02 with a Fisher 29 hardtail frame.I sold evry 26" thing I had and don't plan to ever go back to the small wheels.

I had both a Full suspension and a hardtail at the same time,and sold the Full suspension.29's ride a little softer than 26's and I prefer the simplicity and reduced maintenance of a hardtail.I do use a sus seat post.

I went from hanging off the back with my riding partners to near the front.I can get up almost anything now and find that I save energy by not fighting with the bike so much.

I think a 32" front,29" rear would be the ultimate..

dan

[gabbard]

I have been looking at the MTBR board and started to learn a bit more. When I rode the bikes that I demo'd, they felt good - stable, seemed slightly smoother, seemed to handle singletrack just fine. Weight difference was a bit, but not huge.

With the Dos Niner, you have hit on a contentious point - the flexibilty of the frame. There was a thread on there a few weeks ago that discussed this - some people saying that they had no problems with flexibility, others complained about it. Hard to tell how different people ride, how strong they are, etc., but other than the potential for flex, the bike looks perfect - not full suspension, no moving parts, inexpensive, light. My only nervousness about another steel hardtail is that I am looking for some more comfort, while still getting the benefits of the 29" wheels. I would hate to get a steel hardtail and find out that it rolls over stuff better, but I still feel beat up. I can not afford something like the Titus or Speedgoat versions of the full-sus 29er's, so I am more in the $1000 price range.

Please - any other information, let me know. I'd love to hear more about these bikes.

Steve

[circusbike]

I have a 2002 Fisher size large that I am going to be selling soon. They are really awesome but I need to scale down the mtb collection a bit. They roll better than any 26 bike. Anyway this could be a a relatively inexpensive way to get and try one.
Parts mix is XT and XTR RaceFace, Ritchey carbon bars thompson post.
I don't have pix yet but will soon. Any one interested PM me

[H.Frank Beshear]

Shop owner had Tom Teesdale build him one for Leadville. He was a flat tire from a gold buckle. He raced Squanomie (sp) in WI with it also. He seems to like the idea. Frank

[ols]

I used to ride standard 26 inch wheels, but now I ride a full suspension 29er, and for me, it's much better. I've done several offroad 100 milers on it back east and improved my time by about 10% compared to the same courses on my 26er (and more or less same fitness, so I'm pretty sure it's the bike.)
Pros: - Since I'm 6'4", a 29er frame fits me much better. I have a 24 inch seat tube and feel like I sit "in" the bike like most people probably feel on their 26er. (My center of gravity was relatively far up in the air on the 26 inch wheels and I would wheelie and endo a fair amount on the 26er compared to the 29er.)
- It rolls over obstacles easier. Like others have said, I clear trails on the 29er that I could not on the 26er.
- It maintains better momentum (which results in slightly higher average speed in my experience)
Cons: For me, the main negative compared to my 26er is that you can feel the heavier tires somewhat when accelerating up to speed. Once they're up to speed though, they feel faster overall to me. Sometimes when on a training ride, I'll ride Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35 inch slicks on the road and they weigh about 900 grams each (just the tire!) but at 30 psi they are super comfortable and they roll fast too. The other drawback relative to 26ers is that, because 29ers are newer, there are less options for tires and forks, although more are being introduced all the time. My current tires and fork work really well. Now I just need to practice a lot more in the technical sections. Here's a pic after a somewhat muddy ride.

What bike and set-up did you test ride?

[DfCas]

Is curiously attractive-I think I'm a sucker for the graphics.I keep looking at it and trying not to buy one.I prefer the looks of the 05,but the soon available 06's have more tire clearance in the rear and more standover clearance.

I know that a suspension seatpost offers great performance/weight/simplicity benefits for a hardtail,but I really want a Dos.I suspect I'd end up putting a sus post on it.I only mtb in the winter,so I don't use any elastomer based stuff.They freeze and become rigid below ~35f.

The hidden advantage of 29's is that the BB has 31.5mm more drop for a given BB height.This,combined with the better rollover characteristics,means close to no endos for me since I switched.

A month or 2 ago someone posted a pic of a very nice Serotta Ti Max 29 on the 29 forum-I think it was a SS.Very attractive.

As far as quick/slow steering,the Voo Doo frames have 73* head angles.Sounded scary to me at first,but I'd like to try one.



dan

[gabbard]

Ols, I test rode a Fisher Xcaliber (from Absolute Bikes in Salida), and a Wily. A friend owns Wily Cycles and I borrowed one of his team bikes. Very fun, very pretty, very steel.

Steve

[Marburg]

What's this? A MTB discussion that's free from d00dz?

So here's my question on the whole 29er dealie. To what degree is the appropriateness of 29" wheels a function of the size of the rider? Or rather, are all of the 29" wheel advocates guys > 6ft tall.

I like to think of myself as a pretty middle-of-bell-curve 56-57cm/18" bike riding kind of guy, and I honestly think I'm at the lower end of 29" applicability. Sure, it works great Gary Fisher and Yao Ming and all that. What about me?

Any 5'6" 29er riders out there?

[DfCas]

5'6" is fine.The 2 main considerations are handlebar height and toe overlap.The headtube is 31mm higher,often resulting in the need for a negative stem.Of course the traditionalists on here would love that:::

Toe overlap has been reported as being a problem for riders in the low 5 foot range on custom frames. Using Fisher geometry,since they are the most widely available and known, the medium is great,the small is marginal,but no toe overlap reported since Fisher uses long TT's and a 71.5 HA.

dan

[billrick]

However, I think (650B) 27.5" would be better (for LOTS of reasons); but the short of it is, you'd get the best of both worlds. I'm working now with tire makers to make it happen.

Kirk -

I really hope you are serious! I would love to see some true 650B mountain bike tires. I have a set of M900 XTR hubs on Rigida Sphinx 650B rims that are ready. That would be a fascinating ride. Just out of curiosity, I threw this together:

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk -

I really hope you are serious! I would love to see some true 650B mountain bike tires. I have a set of M900 XTR hubs on Rigida Sphinx 650B rims that are ready. That would be a fascinating ride. Just out of curiosity, I threw this together:


Yeah, I'm dead serious! The tires are the hardest part, that is why I am starting there. Grant P. has a 44mm knobby, but I want a real MTB tire 55+mm.

You don't ahve a spare $150K to make it happen sooner do you?

[billrick]

Yeah, I'm dead serious!

I just had to dig up this thread after seeing the coolest photos from NAHBS 2007:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/409521154_f1c9ca3718_b.jpg


KICK A$$!!! Congrats, Kirk!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[gt6267a]

I did not catch this thread on the first go around, but a few thoughts:

To get us in the game, I am 5’7” and weigh 183. My road bike is 53 x 53.5.

I have a moots smoothie AL with Reba fork and recently acquired a Salsa Dos Niner with Reba SL fork. Both my mtn bikes are 16”. For the Salsa, I probably could have gotten a medium but am comfortable as is.

There is no question that I prefer the Dos Niner. I climb faster, attack turns with more confidence, and roll over obstacles more easily. In my size the Dos Niner does not appear flexy, though I might be less sensitive to that that others. The relish shock does work. A friend riding behind me said he could see it in action and that it moved less when I was out of the saddle, as you would expect. FYI: the shock is very sensitive to pressure. I currently have it set to about 30psi. When it was 40psi the bike was super duper stiff. That said, in general, the Dos Niner is more firm than the FS Smoothie and I am still getting accustomed to that.

My fitness has been improving lately. I seem to float up the hills on the Dos Niner in way that I did not on the Smoothie. The difference has been so great, that I am curious to take out the Smoothie and see the difference.

One interesting side note / concern / point of reference, on one of the local trails, there are some very tight turns. I find them much easier to negotiate them on the Dos Niner than the Smoothie. This has made me wonder if there is a problem with the Smoothie as everyone seems to say a 29er should turn more sluggishly and that is just not want I am experiencing.

[toaster]

Smaller riders and smaller frames bring up the issue of rear tire clearance near the bottom bracket.

I have a Gary Fisher Rig in the large frame size and I've heard about tight clearance on small frame sizes.

[LH2]

I've owned a custom Carl Strong steel 29'r and it's been awesome. I highly recommend Strong for your steel frame needs. :cool:

Momentum and traction seem to improve after the switch to 29. I had some nice 26" mtbs too - Ibis Alibi, Bontrager Race Lite & Moots YBB. :D

I'm sticking with 29" from now on.

[weatherman]

I've owned a custom Carl Strong steel 29'r and it's been awesome. I highly recommend Strong for your steel frame needs. :cool:

Momentum and traction seem to improve after the switch to 29. I had some nice 26" mtbs too - Ibis Alibi, Bontrager Race Lite & Moots YBB. :D

I'm sticking with 29" from now on.

I've ridden many 26" wheeled mtbs over the years--Specialized Stumpjumper, Cannondale Jekyll, Surly 1x1, Cannondale 1FG, Specialized S-Works Epic FSR and even a custom Serotta CST for awhile. Those bikes are all gone and have been replaced by two Moots 29ers! A YBB (MootoX) set up with gears and a hardtail MootoX set up singlespeed. Both running 29 inch wheels. I ride/race in the midwest with some time spent in Colorado in the summer. I am fully sold on the 29er for any trail conditions/riding style other than freeriding, which isn't my thing anyway. Make the move, you will not regret it! :)

[Too Tall]

I love the idea of 29'r and IF I was in the market for a mtn bike no question...

How about a 29r' on 'roids? How about a 29r' single speed tandem ????

(scroll down until you see pics.)

http://www.sabertoothsalmon.blogspot.com/

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk -

I really hope you are serious! I would love to see some true 650B mountain bike tires. I have a set of M900 XTR hubs on Rigida Sphinx 650B rims that are ready. That would be a fascinating ride. Just out of curiosity, I threw this together:

billrick,

Carl at Vicious Cycles has built a couple 650B MTB's now and says my tire just fits inside the Fox fork. It's tighter than I like, but he says there is about .25" of clearance all around. I guess as long as the tire doesn't bottom out on the crown under full compression it should be fine.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9856980@N02/

[toaster]

Everyone interested in the 29er should follow this link and read the story.


http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=894&category=features

[shanerpvt]

I have my heart set on a Kirk, but after that I want one of these:

http://www.willitsbikes.com/Willits.html

The Trail King w/ B2 rear.

SWEET imho.

[seanw]

i am totally sold on the 29er. i disagree with anything negative you may have heard about them. they do perfectly fine in tight singletrack. a lot faster than a 26er. better ground clearance. smoother ride. better traction. climbs like crazy. i got one at the beginning of this season ( the budget steel raleigh xxix rigid single speed) and have not been on my full suspension 26er all season. so much fun to just get on and pedal and not think of changing gears or suspension. still amazes me how low you can run the tire pressure without pinch flatting. so low that on some hits the tire will compress and you can feel the rim. must be the large contact patch.

now i want to go riding!!

sean

[Dave B]

I love mountain bikes most, over every other type. I know some people may cringe whenthey hear that, butit is only because I enjoy that type of riding more. When 29er came out I thought it was the dumbest idea in the world. And the ones I saw looked horrible. The bigger wheels really stuck out and made some decent looking bikes look like trash.

BUT

I tried one, not only did I try one out I took a ride right after I rode my favorite bike of all time. I could not believe the difference. The 29er was smoother to pedal, help momentum more easily, and accelerated quicker once moving then the 26er. It wasn't this incredible difference, but I could with out a doubt notice an improvement over blue groove and pretty rocky terrain. I had a 29er rigid and while I think technology is wonderful, the rigid wasn't terrible.

Obviously I sold all the bikes as that seems pretty well documented, but was fortunate to pick up Jack's Spider 29er. I can tell you that Intense has nailed this one. FS 29er with 4 inches fornt adn rear and it simply is the smoothest mtb I have ever owned. I can not tell you how pleased I am to have this bike, for a number of reasons.

Why do 29ers make a difference. Larger contact area for the tire and wheels are not falling into gaps in the trail as a 26er would.

I think Kirk P's idea rocks, and when he wants to send me one I will be happy to ride it into the dust! :D I think sometimes people freak with change.

Yes they take a bit more energy to get rolling, but once it is, it takes less energy to keep it going.

Turning radius' are affected. There is a switchback that is now become a challenge do to the bigger wheels, but the rock gardens I used to struggle on are now easily passed.

Yeah I think they are the real deal.

Does a 29 inch wheel make up for suspension. No, you gain a bit, but more to do with tire pressure. A 29 inch Full susser is sweet. And for smaller people, you simply have to get used to a different look. I am barely 6 feet and all 18inch bikes I have tried work just fine. Plus they are so cool!

past and present bikes!

[Dave B]

I sold my Moots YBB and Yeti ASR after riding a Surly Karate Monkey 29er for a few months. On my very first ride on the Monkey, I found myself clearing climbs that I had never made on my 26" wheels. Also, it is hard to describe the feeling of momentum, but the speed of these bikes on any flats more than made up for the loss of flickability in tight singletrack, imho. I love my IF 29er and it is now my only mt bike.

If you haven't found this discussion group yet, I highly recommend checking out the 29er board on mtbr.com. There are more reviews, ride reports, and rational discussions on the 29er phenomenon than you could ever read in a long, snow-bound weekend. This is straight from their FAQs, and is very accurate in my experience:

29" Pro's:

Rolling resistance (by some 10%)
Bearing resistance and wear (by some 10%)
Tire wear (by at least 10%)
Roll-over stability climbing and descending
Overall comfort over a ride
Grip and cornering balance
Traction
Pinch-flat resistance

26" Pro's:

Weight (300-400g lighter on the complete hardtail bike, all else being equal)
Due to this weigth advantage : faster acceleration, by around 2%
Wheelies are easier, the front lifts more easily.
Flickability in extremely tight corners (where walking would actually be faster)
Wheel stiffness, at least when using hubs of equal flange spacing



Just wanted to see if you would leave me that bike in your will?!?!?! :beer:

How cool is that!

Prez

[Dave B]

I just had to dig up this thread after seeing the coolest photos from NAHBS 2007:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/409521154_f1c9ca3718_b.jpg


KICK A$$!!! Congrats, Kirk!

:banana: :banana: :banana:


Yeah Kirk if you need my address, just let me know! :D I love that bike. Everything looks perfect!

Godo on Ya mate!

[justinf]

that is a beautiful bike. . .I guess the tires are now available?

[link]

I raced all this season on my Titus Racer X 100 a la 26" and on a loaner Seven Sola HT 29" with custom geo to quicken the flick with a slightly higher BB and tight as can be CS length for the best possible climbing prowess but still able to run a 2.35 tire. I swapped forks on the Sola to try both a 80mm Reba and a 100mm Reba. The bike was built with a 71 degree HT angle for the 80mm fork. The 100mm changed it to about 70.5mm. I prefer the 100mm.

I'm 6' tall. I really like the 29er a lot. It holds a line on the descent really well because of increased traction and smokes that line with the increase in gyroscopic effect. I think that's really cool when you're racing. Passing on the downhill makes my juices flow. It's not as nimble on slow speed manuevering where - really tight switchbacks are on the ascent or descent - changing lines in rock gardens - lifting the front end (manualing) ...these kinds of situations are king with a 26er.

All in all - I see a path of success for the 27.5" format. It's going to strike a great compromise between the 26 and 29 format. It's also going to make full suss a lot easier to engineer.

In my mind, the 27.5" is worth waiting for. I've put my HT project on hold until I see more rim options (c'mon Stans!), more tire options and more fork options. I'm gonna keep the Titus another race season ...in spite of my strong desire to build a "better" XC race rig.

[gdw]

Which bike did you ride at Leadville?

[link]

neither of those two ...another loaner - Ellsworth Truth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Leadville is so very much a HT 29er suited course with fast rolling rubber.

[gdw]

I'm interested in trying a 29er but frankly was not impressed by the performance of the bikes near me, 10-11 hour pace, in this years race. The big wheels certainly were fast on the downhills and rolled well when they got up to speed on the flats like the sections from the base of Powerline to Twin Lakes but seemed slow on the smaller hills and really slow on the extended climbs. Colombine killed off the big tire riders who had been near me during the fist 40 miles. The weight of the tires might have been a disadvantage although it could easily have been that the riders weren't strong climbers.

[link]

I should temper my enthusiasm My time on a 29er has not been sufficient to render absolute confidence in a decision. I rode three xc races and a handfull of training rides with the Seven.

Also, it's difficult to really know how much faster or slower you are on either bike until you put a clock on it with the same fresh legs. My impression is that the 29er rules the flats and downhills and the 26er spins up quickly on ascents. In the dirt, that "spin up" may happen many times on one ascent since terrain will often require a loss of momentum. The 29er also gobbles the small hits with less deflection.

Can I just say that it's the machine first that wins the race?

Interesting that just this last Saturday at a Yeti event ...Yeti is just not jumping on the 29er movement at all. They're not at all sold. The carbon ASR was just awesome BTW. Yeti has it going on.

[gdw]

Yeti is a great local company with a pretty diverse line of bikes so it's interesting to see that they aren't going after the 29er market. They seem to be putting their efforts into improving their current offerings and will sell quite a few of those carbon ASR's if they are as light as they claim.

[Dave B]

Yeti is a great local company with a pretty diverse line of bikes so it's interesting to see that they aren't going after the 29er market. They seem to be putting their efforts into improving their current offerings and will sell quite a few of those carbon ASR's if they are as light as they claim.


I have thought about that as well. Santa Cruz has some of the best mountain bikes out at the moment, and with Intense making their Spder and 5.5 work I thought for sure they would jump.

I still think people expect it will die out. Too many quality builders do such a good job do not see it going away. I sure hope not.

[Ken Robb]

I wonder where the definition crossover from a rigid 29er to a cross bike occurs :rolleyes: ?

[72gmc]

Since seeing this on cyclofiend, I can't think 29er without thinking about it. Mr. President, you were asking for Brooks pics in another thread. This is a pretty nice display stand for a Brooks imo.

[Dave B]

That is fantastic!

Cheers

[gdw]

That looks like an old Bianchi Project 3 with drop bars and Brooks saddle.

[mjb266]

My wife is 5'2" and loves 29ers. She was on a supercaliber 29 first and wouldn't go back to a 26" for her next bike. She was so gung ho that I tried a used IF from a guy I knew. I am now also a convert (6'2"). So long as they are designed well they are awesome. The arguments are true and the benefits outweigh the costs.

[velodadi]

I have always been a die-hard road biker, but now that I live in a mountain bike hotbed (Boise, Idaho) so I decided to build up a 29er.

Through some very good fortune I came upon a Serotta Odile 29er frame in my size. The guys at George's Bike Shop (thanks Josh & Jason!) here in Boise never knew Serotta made a 29er! They did a great job building up the bike with a mix of middle-grade components.

I am not by any means a technical trail mountain biker, But I really like the 29er because it sure seems nimble enough for my needs, and I don't feel like I am pedaling hard and not going anywhere like I have felt riding on 26 inch wheels.

Stay tuned- I have already wiped out in the loose stuff, and got my first flat. Wouldn't you know it? I didn't go tubeless! The new adventure continues....

[shanerpvt]

Since seeing this on cyclofiend, I can't think 29er without thinking about it. Mr. President, you were asking for Brooks pics in another thread. This is a pretty nice display stand for a Brooks imo.

WOW....that's all I can say.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Yeah Kirk if you need my address, just let me know! :D I love that bike. Everything looks perfect!

Godo on Ya mate!

Thanks Mr. P.

This bike looks so "normal" that I think it's important to point out the size of the bike to give people some perspective. The proportions and balanced look of this bike when compared to most 29'ers is an important feature imo. Looks may not matter in practical terms but esthetically pleasing proportions are a big part of what makes a bike "look like a bike" to my eye.

The ST is 19" from the center of the BB to the top of the seat collar. The TT is 24" long. I was tempted to build a smaller bike to better accentuate the wheel size, but for what I paid for this prototype, I decided it had to fit me! The one other thing I would like to point out is that the chainstays are about .375" (9mm) longer than I would have liked. But the frame was built before the tires were available and we played it safe to ensure the wheels would fit in the frame.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9856980@N02/

fwiw, though it's not shown, the size difference between the 26 and 650b wheels is the same as a 650b and 29er.

[fishbolish]

rode my Q-ball (quiring ) 29er for the first time last weekend,the bike was amazing,stable & a blast to ride. the other bike I am in the process of building is a mongoose Ti softail 26" wheeled bike.After the ride ,I started thinking of offloading the softail frame & fox fork & having Scotty Q make me an alloy 29er (Qball is chromolly). I am 6' tall & feel the bike works better for me. MY 2cents

[Kirk Pacenti]

http://bikebizbabe.blogspot.com/2007/09/650b-experiment.html