Time Trial Setup

[KevinK]

I am setting up a dedicated time trial bike for the upcoming season. Distances will be 15-25 miles, relatively flat courses. I don't want a tri- setup that places me over the BB, but I am looking for an agressive TT setup. My question is should my elbows be under my shoulders when resting on aerobars, or should they be extended out? I feel the most comfortable with my upper arms at perhaps 45 degrees from vertical. This position helps stretch my back out and keeps my elbows from interfering with my knees, but I don't know if this is the most effective position relative to areodynamics. In this position my elbow pads are about 7cm below the level of my seat. To bring my elbows closer under my shoulders and still keep a relatively flat back I would need to drop the pads another 3-4cm and pull everything back, which would require a smaller frame with a lower headtube and shorter toptube.

So assuming that both positions are equally comfortable and result in similarly flat back positions, which would be the preferred setup, stretched out or tucked in?

Kevin

[Bruce K]

Oh Tooooo Taaaalllll....

I think you are most qualified for this one.

There seem to be several schools of thought on this one.

Bill Petersen set me up with upper arms pretty vertical. There is no knee-elbow problem for me.

BK

[Too Tall]

Kev., lots of info. here to look at. You said aggressive and I don't know what you mean by that. There is only so much you can do with many road frames. What 'cha working with? I used a Look Ergo stem to "find" my TT position using a road frame. It did not take alot of convincing from Matt Barkley to show me why a modified road position is the fastest one for me. Everyone is different, yeah that's a general statment but maybe you should start with something you are comfortable with go from there.

I've learned a couple key things that seem important. Pick a front end setup you want to work with (HT/bars) and assess your current flexibility...ability to manage HB / saddle drop.

CYFAC and Teschner both are frames you can look at for proven geos and setups that work for a wide range of folks.

Zat help?

[KevinK]

I am building up a used Russ Denny road frame. It looks to be about 74/74 degrees with 51cm seattube (ctt) and a rather long 55cm level toptube, and a 11cm headtube. I currently have it setup with a Thompson zero setback seatapost and Profile Carbon X integrated areobars/stem unit. The top of the armrests are 7cm below the top of the seat, which is as low as they will go.

Sitting on the bike, in the aero position and looking at myself in a wall mirror, my back is pretty much horizontal from the mid back through the shoulders, and my elbows are about an inch forward of my nose. I could switch to a different bar setup and get lower in the arms, but I would have to bring my elbows back towards my body or I'd be very uncomfortable. In other words, my current setup gets my back/head about as low as I can go and still be reasonably comfortable. So the question is not if I should go lower, because I can't. The question is should bring my arms back towards my body while maintaining the same back/head position, or are they okay where they are.

Kevin

[Too Tall]

REALLY need more on your build and maybe see a pic. to say.
I'd be more concerned about weight distribution and your requirement not to be in a very forward position. What stem lenght is working and what bars?

[KevinK]

Too Tall: This is the aerobar/stem setup I am using. The stem extension is 10cm, the areobars are adjustable for reach. I don't think that I want to be too forward over the BB, because it is my understanding that the more forward (triathlon) position uses less of the quad muscles, and my quads are where my power is. I'm looking to maintain more of a roadie position, as that is what I'm used to. I'm a little more forward by virtue of the zero setback post. I have the bike apart right now, I'll take pictures when its back together. Thanks for any advice or info you can pass along.

http://www.profile-design.com/2006_product_pages/images/carbon_x.jpg

[Bruce K]

Kevin;

Hopefully Too Tall will back me up on this one, but flat back is not everything.

You need to be sure that you can also breathe freely and easily. If that compromises your flat back, so be it. You won't be able to stay down in the bars for long if you can't get all the O2 that you need.

BK

[loctite]

KEvin,
A few things,
1. A good aero position is one that you can hold comfortably and still be efficient. If you are not using all the muscle groups available to you, aerodynamics means nothing.

1.5 As far as aerodynamics go narrower to the wind is more critical than low.

2. Arm pad width, your arms should shield your hips from the wind and support your upper body. Your elbows should rest close to directly below your shoulders, but not too wide that you create an air scoop with your chest.

3. Extension. Front to back wise, your arms should be at a 90-degree angle to your back. This is the most natural position for your skeletal structure.

4. As far as your drop, 7cm is not extreme for short TT's, but the amount of drop you can handle depends on you flexibility and core strength. If you are riding an aggressive drop 6cm + you can probably handle an aggressive drop on the tt bike. You just want to avoid constricting your hip/stomach area too much.

My tip, work with a GOOD TT fitter, WAY different than just a road fitter. If you cant do that build the bike and have someone take some pics from the side and front at different pedal positions. I’m sure we can help you tweak your position.

Good Luck

[jerk]

KEvin,
A few things,
1. A good aero position is one that you can hold comfortably and still be efficient. If you are not using all the muscle groups available to you, aerodynamics means nothing.

1.5 As far as aerodynamics go narrower to the wind is more critical than low.

2. Arm pad width, your arms should shield your hips from the wind and support your upper body. Your elbows should rest close to directly below your shoulders, but not too wide that you create an air scoop with your chest.

3. Extension. Front to back wise, your arms should be at a 90-degree angle to your back. This is the most natural position for your skeletal structure.

4. As far as your drop, 7cm is not extreme for short TT's, but the amount of drop you can handle depends on you flexibility and core strength. If you are riding an aggressive drop 6cm + you can probably handle an aggressive drop on the tt bike. You just want to avoid constricting your hip/stomach area too much.

My tip, work with a GOOD TT fitter, WAY different than just a road fitter. If you cant do that build the bike and have someone take some pics from the side and front at different pedal positions. I’m sure we can help you tweak your position.

Good Luck


loctite's right.....

bear in mind you can also cheat abit by rotating yourself around the bottom bracket with a sligtly steeper seat angle/saddle postion. this will will allow you to maintain your hip angle from your road postition but get lower in the front end. the jerk likes to ride fairly slack as he's always been one to muscle the bike in tts.... he also likes straight aerobar extensions that allow him to row the bike a bit but then again; the jerk has enver had to run after a time trial, is bigger than your average bear and is easily bored by steady prolonged efforts. but still, you'll find you don't want a more closed hip angle than your road position. make sure your supported skeletelly(sp?) and that the angles are all in the ball park loctite mentioned. make sure your elbows are just wide enough so that someone looking at you from straight on can't see your hips, and don't forget that when you bring your saddle forward, you want to bring it up as well because you're rotating your body around the bottom bracket, not just pushing it forward.

jerk

[Too Tall]

Starting to see more of what you are working with. The limiter will be HT and how comfortable you are with no spacers. For the initial setup do this...take your regular road racing setup...not your touring bike!!! Subtract 2 cm from the TT and push the saddle forward as much as 1 cm not more...take the spacers out. Set your forarms up close to parallel to the ground. Trade powerful position for aero everytime pal. Elbows should be right over to slightly infront of pads. Again your problem will be getting the front end low enough.

[KevinK]

(snipped) Again your problem will be getting the front end low enough.

That is my dilemma. I can go slightly lower by using a different areobar setup, but the Carbon X is what I have to work with right now, and there is no height adjustability for the pads. I have it all the way down on the headset. Everything seems to work if I have my arms somewhat extended. If I should be positioned with my arms back and in, I will need to make equipment changes, at least a new aero bar/stem setup or worse case, a different frame.

Kevin

[jerk]

use a deda newton track stem. it'll lower you a bit. you can also modify the elbow pads so that they attach to the bars in a more direct manner. it's possible as well that you may be better served by straight extensions whereby your wrists would be pointing down allowing for a sligthly higher pad. this is particularly nice if you're the type of rider who likes to row the bike; allowing you to incorporate your biceps into the equation......





jerk

[Ken Lehner]

Too Tall: This is the aerobar/stem setup I am using. The stem extension is 10cm, the areobars are adjustable for reach. I don't think that I want to be too forward over the BB, because it is my understanding that the more forward (triathlon) position uses less of the quad muscles, and my quads are where my power is. I'm looking to maintain more of a roadie position, as that is what I'm used to. I'm a little more forward by virtue of the zero setback post. I have the bike apart right now, I'll take pictures when its back together. Thanks for any advice or info you can pass along.



For what it is worth: I ride with the nose of my saddle a couple of centimeters in front of the BB. This summer, I was able to train pain-free in this position at race pace (~24mph) with a slight hamstring pull. I couldn't run with this injury, but biking was not an issue.

[Too Tall]

Given what you are saying gotta think your best bet will not be these bars.

Finding the right amt. of stem extension will be fun...not.

ANY chance you can borrow beg or steal an ergo stem?