Who's Familiar with Sachs New Success?

[sean]

Going back a bit.

Today I was building up an old Look 171 with 8sp New Success stuff. I have the campy made 8sp ergos that are supposed to be calibrated to work with NS rear derailleurs.

I'm using an ARIS 8sp freewheel as well. Got it all setup and it shifted horrible. At first I thought it was the worn pulleys, replaced those, no dice. Then tried a different chain, nope. Lastly, on a whim, I tried an 8 speed chorus RD and it shifted GREAT!

I know that sachs messed around a bit with both HG compatible Aris stuff and campy stuff. I also know that ARIS 8sp freewheels are supposedly the same spacing as campy and shimano 7.

I'm thinking the RD I have is possibly an early version meant for 7 speed and below and I need something compatible with 8sp. What I don't understand is that if the ergo indexing is supposed to be calibrated with Sachs RDs, why the heck is it working with campy.

Can someone school me?

[oldpotatoe]

Going back a bit.

Today I was building up an old Look 171 with 8sp New Success stuff. I have the campy made 8sp ergos that are supposed to be calibrated to work with NS rear derailleurs.

I'm using an ARIS 8sp freewheel as well. Got it all setup and it shifted horrible. At first I thought it was the worn pulleys, replaced those, no dice. Then tried a different chain, nope. Lastly, on a whim, I tried an 8 speed chorus RD and it shifted GREAT!

I know that sachs messed around a bit with both HG compatible Aris stuff and campy stuff. I also know that ARIS 8sp freewheels are supposedly the same spacing as campy and shimano 7.

I'm thinking the RD I have is possibly an early version meant for 7 speed and below and I need something compatible with 8sp. What I don't understand is that if the ergo indexing is supposed to be calibrated with Sachs RDs, why the heck is it working with campy.

Can someone school me?

Color spacers in the freewheel? brownish are shimano spaced, black are Campagnolo.

One bolt head type RD on the Campagnolo RD or 2?

Where they attach the RD to the frame and where the cage is attached?

PLUS the ERGO 'may' have a Campagnolo, vice sachs type, shift disc in it.

[oliver1850]

I'm running the black spacered Aris 8 on my New Success DT shifter bike. I checked it against an Aris with brown spacers, which is almost exactly 1 cog thickness wider. The ones with brown spacers are much more common.

If you have the brown spacers, put the Sachs RD back on and see whether it's undershifting or going too far. If it's undershifting, there's a good chance the narrower black freewheel will help.

Just as a point of reference, the brown version is almost exactly the same overall width as a Uniglide 8, and is slightly narrower than Campy 8. Shimano 8 speed spacers labeled 3.0 mm measure 2.9, and Campy's measure 3.18 mm, cog thickness is very close to the same.

The only cassette or freewheel I've found that's as narrow as the Aris with black spacers is a Regina America 92.

I can check cable pull on some rear Sachs Ergos if you'd like. I have several loose ones, including a NOS one that's in the late tan, black and silver box.

[Gummee]

I knew I was in the right place...

I have a few NS rear derailleurs in varying states of repair and *one of these days* I'll have another NS bike like the one I sold in a fit of needing rent $.

M

[sean]

Whew. Thanks all! I love the collective knowledge.

@oldpotatoe

Spacers are brown (shimano?) and Campy RD has two pivot bolts

@oliver1850

With the all sachs setup and the brown spaced freewheel, it starts out overshifting, then undershifts as I go up.

[oliver1850]

Cog center dimensions are hard to measure but it appears that neither of the Aris FWs have the same spacing throughout. The black one has a distinctly thinner spacer between the 6th and 7th cog (small cog being the first). It's only about 2.5 mm and the rest are about 3.0 mm. The brown one's spacers are mostly around 3.25 mm, but there's a couple that are .1 - .2 mm thinner and the one between the 3rd and 4th cogs is 3.5 mm. I've only checked one of each, so it's hard to know if they've ever been apart. I do have a new brown one, guess I should be measuring it.

It's possible you have more than one issue. Maybe the 7 speed stuff was different. Perhaps when they went to 8 speed and adopted Ergo levers the geometry of the RD changed too. I have a 7 speed RD and shifters. I could measure the cable pull of the 7 speed shifters and compare it to 8. Or perhaps you have a C8 index gear, like Peter mentioned.

There are several NS rds. The one at the left (also pictured alone) is 7 speed I believe. It's labeled Sachs-Huret, and it makes sense that later ones are Sachs. I bought the long cage new from Excel in the late 1990s. It disappeared from their catalog sometime in 1998. I believe that's the last version, with the windows in the cage. VeloBase refers to the one in the middle of the picture as the 3rd Version. There may be another that I don't have. If you look at the Regina America 92 (made by Sachs) on VeloBase you will see a very similar looking design, but it has an exposed cage pivot bolt head. I've always wondered if there's a New Success with the same exposed bolt.

Is one of these like yours?

[choke]

I also know that ARIS 8sp freewheels are supposedly the same spacing as campy and shimano 7.Sheldon Brown's page shows two different Sachs 8sp FW spacings; 4.8 and 5.0mm. The latter spacing is 7sp regardless of brand (other than some Suntour). If you have a 7sp freewheel laying around you might try it and see if it shifts better. I've ran Campy 8sp Ergos with Aris 7sp FWs for years and they shift great IMO.

There are several NS rds. I'm pretty sure there was also a MTB version of the New Success derailleurs.

[Gummee]

Those NS derailleurs look like mine. I'm pretty sure I have the newer version.

I know I could interchange 8sp Shimano FH and 8sp Sachs FW wheels on the bike with the NS.

I've managed to hold on to ONE 8sp FW. I'm pretty sure its a 12-21. Gotta love them young knees!

M

[sean]

I have the early one, farthest to the left that actually says ARIS. So it looks like I have a 7sp.

I found a Sachs catalog online that says the ergos work with both 7 and 8 speed as stated above. I did some digging and found a 7sp with black spacers. Going to put the old RD back and and try the 7sp one for kicks.

From what I can tell, the first set of spacers are build into the freewheel while the larger ones are not. I'm curious to know if I can just swap in black spacers from another freewheel.

If that doesn't work, going to try and find a reasonably priced Later model NS. The problem is the frame is NOS, so I'm trying to find one that looks relatively good.

[spaced_ghost]

rode a NS-equipped Casati for a while, always thought it was pretty great.

[oliver1850]

Changing the spacers is complicated because 4 of them look to be integral to the cogs.

After comparing the geometry of a C8 RD to all 3 NS RDs in the picture, I think you have more going on than just the cog spacing. The Campy RD's cable clamp is placed much closer to the outer link than the Sachs. My guess is that Campy cable pull is less, and that the reason your Sachs shifter undershifts over the total range is that it has a C8 gear in it.

I could send you a DT shifter or another Ergo if you want to test that theory.

[sean]

That would be great. First I think I'm going to try a later version of the RD. I think I've found one for a reasonable price. If that still doesn't work, I'd like to try a different 8sp ergo and would love it if I could borrow to test.

[oldpotatoe]

Whew. Thanks all! I love the collective knowledge.

@oldpotatoe

Spacers are brown (shimano?) and Campy RD has two pivot bolts

@oliver1850

With the all sachs setup and the brown spaced freewheel, it starts out overshifting, then undershifts as I go up.

Not surprised the Campagnolo RD works as the 'geometry most closely matches the Sachs RD, coupled with the brown spacers.

If they don't work with brown spacers and Sachs RD, I suspect the shift disc may be one for Campagnolo 8s. If so, use a more modern Campag RD and black spacers.

Confusing, isn't it?

[sean]

I'm thinking that the RD I used was the 7sp version as it had the outline logo. 7sp was Sachs HyperGlide, I think they called it. I have a couple NOS sachs road chains that say that on them. So I'm guessing since the 7sp freewheels had black spacers it was shimano.

I just found a newer 8sp RD, going to try that, but might take a week or two to get here.

So just to confirm- Brown spacers campy, black, shimano. Yes?

I'm chalking this one up to just as confusing as pre 90's campagnolo bottom brackets.

[oliver1850]

Here's the above pictured 7 speed RD, with a 130 mm SP8 New Success hub, brown spacered FW marked LW 99, HG73 chain, early (judging by Sachs logo on hood) Ergo lever (Rival I think, plastic downshift lever), on a new frame. Shifting nicely in the stand.

I had another Ergo lever on it first. Even though a weak spring gave erratic action, it was clear that the indexing was OK. Still guessing that you have a C8 index gear, as two of my shifters worked with this combo. The definitive test is probably still the DT shifter, as I doubt they work with anything besides Sachs RDs.

I know Peter advises to use 8 speed chains, but the flush pins on Shimano 9s run really quietly on Sachs freewheels.

This is a nice setup. If the frame wasn't ten years newer than the parts I'd leave them on there. I haven't had a new bike in almost a month.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm thinking that the RD I used was the 7sp version as it had the outline logo. 7sp was Sachs HyperGlide, I think they called it. I have a couple NOS sachs road chains that say that on them. So I'm guessing since the 7sp freewheels had black spacers it was shimano.

I just found a newer 8sp RD, going to try that, but might take a week or two to get here.

So just to confirm- Brown spacers campy, black, shimano. Yes?

I'm chalking this one up to just as confusing as pre 90's campagnolo bottom brackets.

Nope, the other way around. Brown-shimano-black Campagnolo