Wiggins: Armstrong doped in 2009 and 2010

[Tony T]

During his interview with Oprah Winfrey, Armstrong insisted that he didn’t dope when he made is comeback in 2009...

"The thing which upset me the most was about 2009 and 2010. I thought: 'You lying bastard (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-angry-over-damage-armstrong-has-done-to-cycling)'." Wiggins said.

"I can remember going toe to toe with him and watching his body language and watching the man I saw at the top of the Verbier in 2009, to the man I saw at the top of the Ventoux, a week later in dope control together. It wasn't the same bike rider… Just watch the videos of how the guy was riding.

[Wayne77]

And we all believe Wiggins is spanky clean...

[fiamme red]

"The thing which upset me the most was about 2009 and 2010. I thought: 'You lying bastard (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-angry-over-damage-armstrong-has-done-to-cycling)'." Wiggins said.Stay classy, Sir Bradley. :rolleyes:

"It's heart breaking for the sport and then the anger kicks in. (I felt) What a f***ing a***hole! I felt all the natural things that most people watching it felt," Wiggins said.

[MattTuck]

For some reason, this whole thing reminds me of a story I heard once. I don't know if it is true...

Stalin was dying, and summoned Khruschev to his bedside. Wheezing his last
words with difficulty, Stalin tells Khruschev, "The reins of the country are
now in your hands. But before I go, I want to give you some advice."
"Yes, yes, what is it?" says Khruschev, impatiently. Reaching under
his pillow, Stalin produced two envelopes labeled #1 and #2.
"Take these letters," he tells Khruschev. "Keep them safely -- don't
open them. Only if the country is in turmoil and things aren't going well,
open the first one. That'll give you some advice on what to do. And, if
after that, if things start getting REALLY bad, open the second one." And
with a gasp Stalin breathed his last.
Well, within a few years Khruschev started having problems --
unemployment increased, crops failed, people became restless. He decided it
was time to open the first letter. All it said was: "Blame everything on me!"
So Khruschev launched a massive deStalinization campaign, and blamed Stalin
for all the excesses and purges and ills of the present system.
But things continued on the downslide, and, finally, after much
deliberation, Khruschev opened the second letter.
All it said was: "Write two letters."

[PQJ]

F-----g w----r. Wiggins, that is.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Wiggins seems to be in the same "offensive is the best defensive" mode that Lance was at the height of his doping.

Maybe it will buy him another 10 years before he losses his yellow jersey too.

[slidey]

I can't bring myself to think that Wiggo is clean...but, I'm with him on the uniball doping during his comeback in 2009/10.

[Louis]

Wiggins has never, ever tested positive for PEDS.

[Tony T]

I can't bring myself to think that Wiggo is clean...but, I'm with him on the uniball doping during his comeback in 2009/10.

That would mean that "the most sophisticated drug program in the history of sports" continued with Astana and Radio Shack, and the riders on those teams, many of which testified under oath that they stopped doping in 2005, so if Wiggins accusations are valid, then the impact goes beyond one rider.

[Tony T]

Wiggins has never, ever tested positive for PEDS.

If we've learned anything, its that the testing meant nothing.

[CunegoFan]

Wiggins has never, ever tested positive for PEDS.

I hear he has been tested 500 times.

[Pearsom]

That would mean that "the most sophisticated drug program in the history of sports" continued with Astana and Radio Shack, and the riders on those teams, many of which testified under oath that they stopped doping in 2005, so if Wiggins accusations are valid, then the impact goes beyond one rider.

And your point is what?
You're not naive enough to think that people won't lie under oath are you?
Astana was not clean
Bruyneel was at the helm for Radio Shack when Pharmstrong was there and Schleck just got popped this season.
Just more of the same. We all know the reason Pharmy is saying he was clean in '09 and '10.. just do the math

[tiretrax]

I am hardly along in find it hard to believe Wiggins/Sky aren't doping (everyone is strong, flying up steep hills). Seems like the Lance accusation is a misdirection.

[dancinkozmo]

That would mean that "the most sophisticated drug program in the history of sports" continued with Astana and Radio Shack, and the riders on those teams, many of which testified under oath that they stopped doping in 2005, so if Wiggins accusations are valid, then the impact goes beyond one rider.


keep bangin' that drum TT !! you go girl !!!!

[the bottle ride]

I don't think he has doped.

He has been an outsider for all of his career- He never meshed with the Aussie guys on FDJ, CA he was ok, Cofidis he wallowd- he never really got rolling til Garmin...slow build is believable.

[ultraman6970]

There is a chance that the team did not dope, they are using a new way to train so basically the whole team is an experiment that took maybe 3 years in the making? The team did not get any result almost till a year ago or so...

You have to consider this aswel, if the team was doped, Froome should have won the vuelta or at least have done something else because those 3 spaniards were on fire this year and were just dropping froome and team mates at will. The other thing, none of the 3 spaniards were in the TdF last year. No super climbers in the 2012 TdF just normal guys and the Schleps hehe

Many think that wiggo is a "johnny come lately," but the guy did his career in the track and pretty much almost nobody in the forums (neither the tv or news) follow the track events, wiggo has been world champion since junior, what happened is that he jumped up back in 2007 because out of nowhere he got 4th (i believe) in the TdF, then few years later he wins it... so we are not talking about a guy that started riding like 5 years ago as a cat 5, the guy has been a top rider for many years now, even one of this world titles is with Manxman.

The good thing about wiggo is that the transition to road worked for him, you have teo bos, the mofo was the fastest sprinter in a track for several years and he still can't make it in the road, IMO if he doesn't do crap this year is better for him to retire or maybe go back to the track, personally i believe bos is even faster and explosive than the missile. But i never seen the missile to compete in the pure sprint race ever. Well this was off topic :D

I am hardly along in find it hard to believe Wiggins/Sky aren't doping (everyone is strong, flying up steep hills). Seems like the Lance accusation is a misdirection.

[Hawker]

Wiggins seems to be in the same "offensive is the best defensive" mode that Lance was at the height of his doping.

Maybe it will buy him another 10 years before he losses his yellow jersey too.

I think you've probably hit it.

[merlincustom1]

How fast was Sky doing the Tour climbs, and at how many w/kg? Could be clean.

[CunegoFan]

How fast was Sky doing the Tour climbs, and at how many w/kg? Could be clean.

Rogers was hitting numbers better than when he was with Dr. Ferrari.

[Charles M]

Sky did everything Postal did...

And still had legs to also lead out sprints.

[wallymann]

aye, that's the rub.

i like wiggo, i like his past, i like his story, i want to believe he's clean.

but if he walks like a duck, and he talks like a duck, well...

Sky did everything Postal did...

And still had legs to also lead out sprints.

[choke]

but if he walks like a duck, and he talks like a duck, well..."If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

[CunegoFan]

aye, that's the rub.

i like wiggo, i like his past, i like his story, i want to believe he's clean.

but if he walks like a duck, and he talks like a duck, well...

Today he made news with his reaction to the Armstrong confession on Doprah, how he knew Armstrong was doping because of his performance in 2009, and how angry it made him. Meanwhile, back at the bat cave, Vaughters has been tweeting about how Wiggins was best buds with Armstrong during that Tour and how Armstrong kept encouraging Wiggins to leave Slipstream.

[Grant McLean]

I don't think Wiggins is blood doping. There my be other things going on,
but he's slower than Contador, and can't compete with the top climbers.
And he won't win another Tour. (At lease one that the course isn't perfectly
suited to his abilities, with lots of TT's and few mtn top finishes.)

There were plenty more curious performances in 2012 than Wiggins.

-g

[EDS]

There is a chance that the team did not dope, they are using a new way to train so basically the whole team is an experiment that took maybe 3 years in the making? The team did not get any result almost till a year ago or so...

You have to consider this aswel, if the team was doped, Froome should have won the vuelta or at least have done something else because those 3 spaniards were on fire this year and were just dropping froome and team mates at will. The other thing, none of the 3 spaniards were in the TdF last year. No super climbers in the 2012 TdF just normal guys and the Schleps hehe

Many think that wiggo is a "johnny come lately," but the guy did his career in the track and pretty much almost nobody in the forums (neither the tv or news) follow the track events, wiggo has been world champion since junior, what happened is that he jumped up back in 2007 because out of nowhere he got 4th (i believe) in the TdF, then few years later he wins it... so we are not talking about a guy that started riding like 5 years ago as a cat 5, the guy has been a top rider for many years now, even one of this world titles is with Manxman.

The good thing about wiggo is that the transition to road worked for him, you have teo bos, the mofo was the fastest sprinter in a track for several years and he still can't make it in the road, IMO if he doesn't do crap this year is better for him to retire or maybe go back to the track, personally i believe bos is even faster and explosive than the missile. But i never seen the missile to compete in the pure sprint race ever. Well this was off topic :D

Theo Bos has won a bunch of races though still lacking a signature win.

[slidey]

Horse excrement...practices like doping don't and can't stop abruptly. Prior to Lance, we heard a lot of clamouring about cycling turning a page after 1998 (Festina). Now we have evidence that 1999 - 2005 cycling has been worse off than before. And now, we hear of doping coming to a grinding halt as soon as uniball left the scene. This makes no logical sense to me...Lance was more than just another doper, but the rest of the peloton is filled with saints either. The very fact that the entire peloton and the UCI start touting one time-period marking a sudden change of practices tells me that doping is still rampant, and all parties concerned are only keen to block it from the public eye.

That would mean that "the most sophisticated drug program in the history of sports" continued with Astana and Radio Shack, and the riders on those teams, many of which testified under oath that they stopped doping in 2005, so if Wiggins accusations are valid, then the impact goes beyond one rider.

[CunegoFan]

There were plenty more curious performances in 2012 than Wiggins.


Yup. His teammates.

[slidey]

The Slovak rookie comes to mind.

There were plenty more curious performances in 2012 than Wiggins.

[Grant McLean]

And now, we hear of doping coming to a grinding halt as soon as uniball left the scene. This makes no logical sense to me...



Any reduction in doping is directly related to the biological passport.


-g

[merlincustom1]

Rogers was hitting numbers better than when he was with Dr. Ferrari.

I found these numbers:


http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html?m=1

[merlincustom1]

Any reduction in doping is directly related to the biological passport.


-g

Lance said as much to Oprah. Ashenden feared that the microdosing Floyd described could get around the passport. Could be what LA was doing with his non-analytical passport positive from the '09 Tour. Had he gone to arbitration, he would have had to defend that by arguing that he'd slept in a cat hatch and trained at altitude.

[CunegoFan]

I found these numbers:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html?m=1

By Rogers own account, he was producing 7% more power than ever this year.

The problem with using theoretical maximum power to weight ratios is the riders are being compared to the very best of those before the EPO era. Evans I might believe but Wiggins is no LeMond and Froome is certainly no Fignon.

[merlincustom1]

By Rogers own account, he was producing 7% more power than ever this year.

The problem with using theoretical maximum power to weight ratios is the riders are being compared to the very best of those before the EPO era. Evans I might believe but Wiggins is no LeMond and Froome is certainly no Fignon.

No, I think the comparison was to the LA era, where he and Pantani are around 6.9 for 38 minutes up L'Alpe d'Huez.

[wallymann]

surely this is a joke. wiggins is a multi-time world champion and has set world records. he has the motor to equal lemond in his heyday.

but Wiggins is no LeMond and Froome is certainly no Fignon.

[CunegoFan]

No, I think the comparison was to the LA era, where he and Pantani are around 6.9 for 38 minutes up L'Alpe d'Huez.

The theoretical maximum comes from the pre-EPO era. In that article and others like it, peole are using the fact that power levels have come down from the levels of Armstrong and Pantani to claim that the peloton is clean, but we are left with clowns like Froome being the equivalent of the greats of the 80s. I don't buy it.

surely this is a joke. wiggins is a multi-time world champion. he has the motor to equal lemond in his heyday.

He is a "multi-time world champion" in a niche of the sport no one cares about. The money in the sport is to be made on the road. If you are a talented rider, what are you going to do? Turn pro at nineteen or twenty and make good money racing on the road with the potential to make even better money if you perform well or survive on scraps from your national Olympic funding until you hit your peak in your late twenties, hoping for a payday if you are one of three to medal at the the Olympics? It is a no brainer. Hundreds of riders make a good living racing on the road. A handful make a few bucks on the track. Wiggins was a big fish in a very small pond. He never cracked the top 100 of the Tour until his miraculous change in 2009.

[gasman]

Sky did everything Postal did...

And still had legs to also lead out sprints.



Exactly !!!!!

[Grant McLean]

He never cracked the top 100 of the Tour until his miraculous change in 2009.

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the facts.
2009 was the first year he didn't concentrate on track.

Cofidis team left the Tour in 2007, and
he spent 2008 preparing for the summer Olympics in Beijing.

Think whatever you want about any rider,
but for crying out loud, make a logical case.

-g

[slidey]

Ahh...alright, I almost forgot about these passports. You're right, some reduction in doping (perception or reality) could be attributed to this.

Call me a skeptic though, as I'm going to just go with perception above. I can't see how one team can totally dominate in the way Sky did. It just has too many similarities to Postal to not be skeptical about doping in Wiggo's case. However, I have absolutely no evidence for this.

Any reduction in doping is directly related to the biological passport.


-g

[CunegoFan]

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the facts.
2009 was the first year he didn't concentrate on track.

Cofidis team left the Tour in 2007, and
he spent 2008 preparing for the summer Olympics in Beijing.

Think whatever you want about any rider,
but for crying out loud, make a logical case.


Who is playing fast and loose with the facts now? Wiggins has been racing on the road in Europe since 2002. Was he just taking money while putting out no effort on the road for seven freaking years before he decided to get serious?

[merlincustom1]

The theoretical maximum comes from the pre-EPO era. In that article and others like it, peole are using the fact that power levels have come down from the levels of Armstrong and Pantani to claim that the peloton is clean, but we are left with clowns like Froome being the equivalent of the greats of the 80s. I don't buy it.

Do we know Froome's vo2 max? Lemond posited that you could reverse engineer your way to vo2 max if you knew rider and bike weight, watts, and length and time of climb. You might see someone with a 98% vo for example, which is impossible and would be proof of juice so to speak.

[CunegoFan]

Do we know Froome's vo2 max? Lemond posited that you could reverse engineer your way to vo2 max if you knew rider and bike weight, watts, and length and time of climb. You might see someone with a 98% vo for example, which is impossible and would be proof of juice so to speak.

Sky had so little faith in Froome that they hired him on a one year contract for 2011. In an interview with a journalist, Brailsford sketched a graph showing the level each rider on the team was suited for versus their age. By Brailsford's assessment, Froome was the worst rider on the team, barely suited to ride beyond the Pro Continental level. During silly season in 2011, Froome was struggling to find a new contract. Then "the transformation." He would have won the 2011 Vuelta if he had not been forced to babysit Wiggins. Now he time trials and climbs with the very very best.

I cannot do anything but laugh at Froome the same way I laughed at Stephen Schumacher. It looks so ridiculous.

Maybe Evans said it best with his recent catty remark about how surprisingly well these skinny guys time trial. He was not talking about the Schlecks.

[jbrainin]

How fast was Sky doing the Tour climbs, and at how many w/kg? Could be clean.

Last I checked, the times for the climbs at the last TdF were not released.

Gee, I wonder why? :rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

Wiggins has been racing on the road in Europe since 2002. Was he just taking money while putting out no effort on the road for seven freaking years before he decided to get serious?

Until 2009 Wiggins was winning world championships and gold medals on the track.
The fact he wasn't simultaneously being a Tour de France
stage race contender is supposed to be proof of what exactly?

Olympic Games
2000 Summer Olympics
Bronze, team pursuit
2004 Summer Olympics
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Silver, team pursuit
Bronze, madison
2008 Summer Olympics
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, team pursuit


2000 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Silver, team pursuit
2001 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Silver, team pursuit
2002 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Bronze, team pursuit
2003 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Silver, team pursuit
2007 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, team pursuit
2008 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, Team pursuit (world record time)
Gold, madison (with Mark Cavendish)

[Steve in SLO]

Epo, perhaps.

Anabolic steroids, Creatine...not so much.

[CunegoFan]

Until 2009 Wiggins was winning world championships and gold medals on the track.
The fact he wasn't simultaneously being a Tour de France
stage race contender is supposed to be proof of what exactly?


You are the one trying to pretend that Wiggins popped on the road scene in 2009. He raced in Europe for European focused teams in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. That is seven years. Those teams were not paying him to sit on his arse during road events.

[cfox]

You are the one trying to pretend that Wiggins popped on the road scene in 2009. He raced in Europe for European focused teams in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. That is seven years. Those teams were not paying him to sit on his arse during road events.

They certainly weren't expecting him to win the TDF, either. Long breakaways, do well in the occasional TT, so in other words, be another David Millar. It's not like he was getting paid that much. Sky was his first real payday.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Until 2009 Wiggins was winning world championships and gold medals on the track.
The fact he wasn't simultaneously being a Tour de France
stage race contender is supposed to be proof of what exactly?

Olympic Games
2000 Summer Olympics
Bronze, team pursuit
2004 Summer Olympics
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Silver, team pursuit
Bronze, madison
2008 Summer Olympics
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, team pursuit


2000 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Silver, team pursuit
2001 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Silver, team pursuit
2002 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Bronze, team pursuit
2003 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Silver, team pursuit
2007 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, team pursuit
2008 UCI Track Cycling World Championships
Gold, 4km individual pursuit
Gold, Team pursuit (world record time)
Gold, madison (with Mark Cavendish)

Are you really using good results during the doping era of cycling as an indication that he is not a doper now?

Really!?

If anything they should strip him of all those wins just on principle.

[merlincustom1]

If anything they should strip him of all those wins just on principle.

I'll assume this is sarcasm.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Mostly yes.

I'm pretty much a Lance fanboy and don't think he should have been stripped of any wins. What's done is done and if they don't catch you before, during or immediately after the event then too bad. I would rate speeding 10 mph over the speed limit (which I do every single time I ride on the interstate) as a greater moral crisis in the world then PEDs amongst pro athletes.

As much as a fanboy I am, I will admit I'm a bit disappointed in Lance because I do not think doping came to a sudden halt in 2005 and I suspect he was doping on some level upon his return. His denial of the more recent doping just gives folks like Wiggins an easy out.

I just cannot fathom how anyone would default to Wiggins being clean now and certainly not early in his career. Grant does a great job of pointing out how he was a major player in cycling in a time that has been proven to had a culture of doping as part of normal preps. Put air in the tires, water in the bottles and dope in the blood.


I'm sure when it is proven that Wiggins doped, we will have the same group of people that feel victimized by him. The dopers choice to dope and the victims choice to be victims.

[Charles M]

Sky had so little faith in Froome that they hired him on a one year contract for 2011. In an interview with a journalist, Brailsford sketched a graph showing the level each rider on the team was suited for versus their age. By Brailsford's assessment, Froome was the worst rider on the team, barely suited to ride beyond the Pro Continental level. During silly season in 2011, Froome was struggling to find a new contract. Then "the transformation." He would have won the 2011 Vuelta if he had not been forced to babysit Wiggins. Now he time trials and climbs with the very very best.

I cannot do anything but laugh at Froome the same way I laughed at Stephen Schumacher. It looks so ridiculous.

Maybe Evans said it best with his recent catty remark about how surprisingly well these skinny guys time trial. He was not talking about the Schlecks.


DingDing...

[merlincustom1]

I would rate speeding 10 mph over the speed limit (which I do every single time I ride on the interstate) as a greater moral crisis in the world then PEDs amongst pro athletes.

Now I know this one is sarcasm:)

[cmg]

Need to get the forum managers to create Armstrong his own topics page to move all these threads. Create a racing page....... 4 pages of threads on whether he did or didn't.

[Grant McLean]

You are the one trying to pretend that Wiggins popped on the road scene in 2009. He raced in Europe for European focused teams in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. That is seven years. Those teams were not paying him to sit on his arse during road events.

Your logic escapes me. Wiggins was clearly focused on his track racing,
and wasn't training for Grand Tours prior to 2009. He didn't even ride a Tour
until 2006. The fact he lost 15 lbs for 2009 should be obvious he re-tooled
his approach for new goals.

He has said so going back to interviews in 2005 that his career was focused
on the Olympics in 2008 on the track. I don't understand your point,
unless you think Wiggo could simultaneously be a track pursuit rider and
a Tour contender at the same time, which is impossible.

-g

[cfox]

Sky had so little faith in Froome that they hired him on a one year contract for 2011. In an interview with a journalist, Brailsford sketched a graph showing the level each rider on the team was suited for versus their age. By Brailsford's assessment, Froome was the worst rider on the team, barely suited to ride beyond the Pro Continental level. During silly season in 2011, Froome was struggling to find a new contract. Then "the transformation." He would have won the 2011 Vuelta if he had not been forced to babysit Wiggins. Now he time trials and climbs with the very very best.

I cannot do anything but laugh at Froome the same way I laughed at Stephen Schumacher. It looks so ridiculous.

Maybe Evans said it best with his recent catty remark about how surprisingly well these skinny guys time trial. He was not talking about the Schlecks.

What did Evans do to convince the world he's the "clean guy"?? Beating a much stronger field with a much harder parcours with a much weaker team in 2011 is more extraordinary than anything Wiggins did in 2012. Two more summits and Contador in 2012 and Wiggo and Froome would've been fighting for stage wins.

[Grant McLean]

Are you really using good results during the doping era of cycling as an indication that he is not a doper now?


No, I'm saying Wiggo wasn't simultaneously a world class track and Tour
contendor at the same time. THAT would be a big indication of doping.

Specialization has been the realm of the clean rider.
Climbers winning TT's and sprinters climbing mountains in the era of
doping is what was unbelievable.

-g

[Grant McLean]

I just cannot fathom how anyone would default to Wiggins being clean now and certainly not early in his career. Grant does a great job of pointing out how he was a major player in cycling in a time that has been proven to had a culture of doping as part of normal preps. Put air in the tires, water in the bottles and dope in the blood.

I'm sure when it is proven that Wiggins doped, we will have the same group of people that feel victimized by him. The dopers choice to dope and the victims choice to be victims.

We have no certainty if riders who have not been caught have doped.

Clearly, so many riders have doped that it's understandable that skepticism
is the logical position to judge every performance. But short of suggesting
"they all doped going back to 1902", which people may or may not believe,
some effort to try and sort out which riders or performances pass the smell
test is the goal, unless we really believe people are guilty unless proven
innocent. I can't condemn every rider in history to doping without evidence,
and that evidence should be weighed and discussed in it's context.

-g

[goonster]

What did Evans do to convince the world he's the "clean guy"??
He's been maddeningly inconsistent throughout his career, while also possessing undeniable grand tour contender talent.

[1/2 Wheeler]

We have no certainty if riders who have not been caught have doped.

Clearly, so many riders have doped that it's understandable that skepticism
is the logical position to judge every performance. But short of suggesting
"they all doped going back to 1902", which people may or may not believe,
some effort to try and sort out which riders or performances pass the smell
test is the goal, unless we really believe people are guilty unless proven
innocent. I can't condemn every rider in history to doping without evidence,
and that evidence should be weighed and discussed in it's context.

-g

You talk as if you and I are part of the governing body of cycling. The governing body does and should assume innocence unless there is strong evidence otherwise. Since their opinion counts for something, that is how is needs to be.

Our opinions as to whether or not they doped is completely meaningless. We don't need "certainty", our "goals" don't matter and we don't have the power to "condemn".

ATMO, the logical conclusion based on the information available is that in cycling (and many other sports) most of the successful pros took PEDs at some point.

You are free to set a higher standard for your own conclusions. If my opinion mattered, I would likely do the same.

[goonster]

Our opinions as to whether or not they doped is completely meaningless. We don't need "certainty", our "goals" don't matter and we don't have the power to "condemn".
We have power. "Condemn" = "Tune out"

The ASO and UCI and are not indifferent to the revenue streams of their events.

[wallymann]

my point is that Wiggo's ALWAYS had the ENGINE, at least on the level with LeMond, that is fact.

Wiggo's body was 10kg too heavy, losing 10kg will do a guy at the world-tour level alot of good if you've got the engine like Wiggo's.

He is a "multi-time world champion" in a niche of the sport no one cares about. The money in the sport is to be made on the road. If you are a talented rider, what are you going to do? Turn pro at nineteen or twenty and make good money racing on the road with the potential to make even better money if you perform well or survive on scraps from your national Olympic funding until you hit your peak in your late twenties, hoping for a payday if you are one of three to medal at the the Olympics? It is a no brainer. Hundreds of riders make a good living racing on the road. A handful make a few bucks on the track. Wiggins was a big fish in a very small pond. He never cracked the top 100 of the Tour until his miraculous change in 2009.

[cfox]

He's been maddeningly inconsistent throughout his career, while also possessing undeniable grand tour contender talent.

But then people make the argument that inconsistentancy is even greater evidence of doping, with big swings in performances. You really can't win trying to sort it out; it's really better to sit back and enjoy the show.

[jpw]

I am hardly along in find it hard to believe Wiggins/Sky aren't doping (everyone is strong, flying up steep hills). Seems like the Lance accusation is a misdirection.

but that isn't the case. Only Pantani, Armstrong, and Contador have been flying up steep hills in the last 15 years (Ullrich was never really a fly boy racer). Sky set a consistent tempo WITH endurance, and that requires a challenger to 'overfly' to get away. Nibali tried to do that last year, but failed, as Sky slowly but surely reeled him back in. Only Froome of the Sky riders has that change of gear a la good old Bertie Beef Steaks.

[jpw]

Today he made news with his reaction to the Armstrong confession on Doprah, how he knew Armstrong was doping because of his performance in 2009, and how angry it made him. Meanwhile, back at the bat cave, Vaughters has been tweeting about how Wiggins was best buds with Armstrong during that Tour and how Armstrong kept encouraging Wiggins to leave Slipstream.

JV, ever the bitch.

[jpw]

The theoretical maximum comes from the pre-EPO era. In that article and others like it, peole are using the fact that power levels have come down from the levels of Armstrong and Pantani to claim that the peloton is clean, but we are left with clowns like Froome being the equivalent of the greats of the 80s. I don't buy it.



He is a "multi-time world champion" in a niche of the sport no one cares about. The money in the sport is to be made on the road. If you are a talented rider, what are you going to do? Turn pro at nineteen or twenty and make good money racing on the road with the potential to make even better money if you perform well or survive on scraps from your national Olympic funding until you hit your peak in your late twenties, hoping for a payday if you are one of three to medal at the the Olympics? It is a no brainer. Hundreds of riders make a good living racing on the road. A handful make a few bucks on the track. Wiggins was a big fish in a very small pond. He never cracked the top 100 of the Tour until his miraculous change in 2009.

The British track team setup is very well funded. There's no financial imperative for young riders to chase money from an early age on the pro road scene. Geraint Thomas is an example of this. Riders can mature slowly and progressively in the environment created by Brailsford, who links the track to the road for British talent. The American 'system' (is there one?) has little to offer a young rider.

[jpw]

Sky had so little faith in Froome that they hired him on a one year contract for 2011. In an interview with a journalist, Brailsford sketched a graph showing the level each rider on the team was suited for versus their age. By Brailsford's assessment, Froome was the worst rider on the team, barely suited to ride beyond the Pro Continental level. During silly season in 2011, Froome was struggling to find a new contract. Then "the transformation." He would have won the 2011 Vuelta if he had not been forced to babysit Wiggins. Now he time trials and climbs with the very very best.

I cannot do anything but laugh at Froome the same way I laughed at Stephen Schumacher. It looks so ridiculous.

Maybe Evans said it best with his recent catty remark about how surprisingly well these skinny guys time trial. He was not talking about the Schlecks.

Froome was suffering with Bilharzia for three years.

[CunegoFan]

Froome was suffering with Bilharzia for three years.

Every time he is not racing he suffers from a blood disease. Convenient in the age of the biopassport. And, lo and behold, just today, Jan. 25, his team says that he has come down with it again and he hopes to be well in six months. That is just in time for the Dauphine and the Tour. Funny enough, the same thing with the same convenient timing happened last year. Color me skeptical.

[CunegoFan]

The British track team setup is very well funded. There's no financial imperative for young riders to chase money from an early age on the pro road scene. Geraint Thomas is an example of this. Riders can mature slowly and progressively in the environment created by Brailsford, who links the track to the road for British talent. The American 'system' (is there one?) has little to offer a young rider.

The average World Tour salary is now about 100K euros. Most of the riders that make the Tour cut have to be pushing at least 200K or so. Show some results and you are on a half a million. Does BC pay that much?

[astaft]

Unless he has some drug resistant schistosomiasis (extremely rare), or he is getting reinfected, I am not believing this story! A little praziquantal should get rid of it in a few weeks - months! Pretty fishy if you ask me.


Froome was suffering with Bilharzia for three years.

[jpw]

Wow, a tough crowd on here these days. 'Armstrong Effect'?

[rain dogs]

Sky had so little faith in Froome that they hired him on a one year contract for 2011. In an interview with a journalist, Brailsford sketched a graph showing the level each rider on the team was suited for versus their age. By Brailsford's assessment, Froome was the worst rider on the team, barely suited to ride beyond the Pro Continental level. During silly season in 2011, Froome was struggling to find a new contract. Then "the transformation." He would have won the 2011 Vuelta if he had not been forced to babysit Wiggins. Now he time trials and climbs with the very very best.


Do you have a link or source for this... not because I don't believe you... I do, but just cause I'd like to look at more stuff about Froome.

He's the real mystery to me. Wiggo has long been elite, although I have doubts about his "transformation".

However, Froome is a freak. He went from being brutal, a guy who couldn't climb (I remember seeing him with Barloworld in one of the Italian races zig zaggin all over the road going up a climb... maybe Emilia? He was slow. Now he's a world beater.... crazy.

I don't think Sky is "doping"... I think they're onto the next thing. Whether it's gene or otherwise. Everyone says they're good cause they have money... well you gotta spend that money on something. They aren't riding motorbikes, although it looks like they are. :eek: