7 out of 8 PDM riders doped at 1988 Tour de France

[ultraman6970]

Looks like a lot of stuff from the past is coming up...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-seven-out-of-eight-pdm-riders-doped-at-1988-tour-de-france

[Tony T]

Pre-EPO, so it doesn't really count ;)

[1/2 Wheeler]

Pre-EPO, so it doesn't really count ;)

There you go running you trap again without knowing what you say!

It was Pre-Lance, so it really doesn't count.:banana:

[Tony T]

There you go running you trap again without knowing what you say!

It was Pre-Lance, so it really doesn't count.:banana:

Sarcasm. The ;) make it obvious

[Elefantino]

More proof that LeMond doped? ;)

[Neves]

Is it safe to assume that they all doped and move on.

[AgilisMerlin]

Ah, the mystery illness, sweats and fever.......

so lucky no one wound up stiff


those concorde's were saweet
team reminds me of andy bishop

(have a friend here who used to train around him in Tucson, secret was to ride up mount lemmon in the big ring the whole way) :eek:

[laupsi]

More proof that LeMond doped? ;)

I was always suspect of Lemond. How can one have an epic bout of diarreah one day on the bike and come back the very next stage w/not a hint of weakness?

[dekindy]

If Lemond doped, except for the litigation Lance Armstrong's denial activity would pale in comparison to Lemond.

Best defence is a good offense.

[Gummee]

Ah, the mystery illness, sweats and fever.......

so lucky no one wound up stiff


those concorde's were saweet
team reminds me of andy bishop

(have a friend here who used to train around him in Tucson, secret was to ride up mount lemmon in the big ring the whole way) :eek:
I had an SLX Concorde and yeah, they were.

I've stopped paying attention to 'who doped and who didn't.' If you assume they all did and watch for the entertainment value, you'll have fewer ulcers. :nod

M

[ColnagoFan]

The stories that would come out of that team...the women, the drugs (not just performance-enhancing), everything. That team was dirty to the core, and to this day killed the PDM and Concorde brands...

[LegendRider]

Anyone have the PDM roster from the 1988 Tour? I only recall Alcala, Breukink and Kelly.

[fiamme red]

Anyone have the PDM roster from the 1988 Tour? I only recall Alcala, Breukink and Kelly.Steven Rooks
Gert-Jan Theunisse
Jörg Müller
Peter Stevenhaagen
Marc van Orsouw
Adrie van der Poel
Rudy Dhaenens
Andy Bishop

[Elefantino]

Stuff.

a) LeMond was on the PDM team in 1988.
b) LeMond didn't ride the Tour that year. He had leg surgery.
c) LeMond left PDM after the 1988 season (for less money with tiny ADR) in part because he refused to take part in the team's extensive testosterone regimen and feared he'd be tricked into using it and test positive.

[fiamme red]

Stuff.

a) LeMond was on the PDM team in 1988.
b) LeMond didn't ride the Tour that year. He had leg surgery.
c) LeMond left PDM after the 1988 season (for less money with tiny ADR) in part because he refused to take part in the team's extensive testosterone regimen and feared he'd be tricked into using it and test positive.LeMond was scheduled to ride the 1988 Tour for PDM, but he had to back out because of an infected tendon. Andy Bishop took his place in the team's Tour roster.

[LegendRider]

Steven Rooks
Gert-Jan Theunisse
Jörg Müller
Peter Stevenhaagen
Marc van Orsouw
Adrie van der Poel
Rudy Dhaenens
Andy Bishop

These riders plus Alcala, Kelly and Breukink total 11 - is that correct?

[fiamme red]

These riders plus Alcala, Kelly and Breukink total 11 - is that correct?You're thinking of 1990. Kelly was with Kas in 1988, Alcala with 7-Eleven, Breukink with Panasonic. Kelly and Alcala joined PDM in 1989, Breukink in 1990.

[pbarry]

Ah, the mystery illness, sweats and fever.......

so lucky no one wound up stiff


those concorde's were saweet
team reminds me of andy bishop

(have a friend here who used to train around him in Tucson, secret was to ride up mount lemmon in the big ring the whole way) :eek:

Bishop left PDM because of his refusal to participate in the team's doping program.

Interesting 1991 article about the start of EPO use in the European peloton:
Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[93legendti]

'...The powerful Dutch team, PDM, with which LeMond had signed a two-year deal in 1987, wanted to cut his 1989 salary by $200,000. "They had lost total confidence in me," he says. "They were trying to claim that maybe my liver was bad, my lung was shot up, maybe I had lead poisoning. That's why I wasn't riding well. They said, 'Maybe you're not going to ever come back.'

...Before the start of the 1989 season, LeMond took a pay cut and signed with ADR, a Belgian-based truck-leasing company, for $350,000 plus bonuses. ADR has a lower budget and considerably lower expectations than powerhouse PDM. That translated to less pressure on LeMond.'

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

[RkyMtn]

I wonder how long it is going to take to find out who all the NON-DOPERS were in all these big tours were and who actually won them. Probably some domestique who was like 98th overall who can stand needles or has some intolerance to the steroids,.....

[dancinkozmo]

lemonds 89 tour win is either the greatest moment in cycling history or the greatest fraud,

[Bud_E]

I recall Theunisse was known as Mr. Testo in the peloton because he claimed that his abnormally high testosterone count was naturally occurring.

[rwsaunders]

Should it read 7 out of 8 PDM dopers rode? :cool:

[rounder]

The thing that bums me out, and i have no way of knowing it for sure, is how come lance and cycling are being singled out for drug use. Obviously, lance did drugs.

How come no one is talking about drug use in high school...do the high achievers use drugs for scholarships. Or in College. Do the high achievers use drugs to get drafted high. I don't know. But obviously, rhere are the same temptations to score high as in the peloton.

[1/2 Wheeler]

The thing that bums me out, and i have no way of knowing it for sure, is how come lance and cycling are being singled out for drug use. Obviously, lance did drugs.

How come no one is talking about drug use in high school...do the high achievers use drugs for scholarships. Or in College. Do the high achievers use drugs to get drafted high. I don't know. But obviously, rhere are the same temptations to score high as in the peloton.

Cycling is some what unique from many of the other sports because a fairly high percentage of the fans base also participate at some level. Even those of us that don't really race often pretend we do. It skews the way we perceive the pro competitors. We think they are pretty much just like us but were just a tad bit more gifted, trained just a tiny bit harder and got some lucky breaks. The average NFL/NBA fan is not nearly as delusional.

Activities like golf, fishing and bowling are similar in regards to fan base participation, but the impacts of doping are not nearly as significant.

Add the personality types of many roadies and you end up with forums full of losers (like myself) that like to wax poetically and reread what we wrote over and over again.

Jus Sayin

[Tandem Rider]

The thing that bums me out, and i have no way of knowing it for sure, is how come lance and cycling are being singled out for drug use. Obviously, lance did drugs.

How come no one is talking about drug use in high school...do the high achievers use drugs for scholarships. Or in College. Do the high achievers use drugs to get drafted high. I don't know. But obviously, rhere are the same temptations to score high as in the peloton.

It's all about the money. I have always been told and as I get older I find it to be true, "if you don't understand something, follow the money".

The NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. each probably wasted more money on Monday of this week than UCI's 2013 entire budget. Most division 1 Universities have bigger football budgets that most if not all pro cycling teams. Their commisioners and management "earn" way more than Hein ever dreams about. There is a vested intrest in keeping it all about the sport and making it entertaining for the fans. How much are tickets on the 50 for an NFL game? How much are good tickets for an NBA game? MLB? Now, Just try getting tickets to watch USA Crit Nationals this year. Know where to buy them? You can't, it's free, just show up and watch. Pay-per-view?, it's not even televised, anywhere. It's the most imprtant criterium in the USA and it's free. How can you make money if you give all of your product away? Sport is all about the dollars, not athleticism.

Part of these dollars are used to make sure that there are very few scandals that could give the sport a black eye.

Lets open 1 eye just a little bit, take a recruited High School football player for example, 225, 40 in 4.8. Big, strong and fast. Goes to a Div. 1 school. Fast forward 4 years, 290 and 40 in 4.3. Are we supposed to believe that he did that on milkshakes and cheeseburgers??? He then goes to the NFL and gets even bigger and faster??? How??? Hundreds of guys do this. This isn't an anomoly.

Big money = no real testing = no non-negatives = more money.

[Mark McM]

lemonds 89 tour win is either the greatest moment in cycling history or the greatest fraud,

Lemond was only on the PDM team for one season, and as noted did not ride the TdeF that year (and missed much of the rest of the season as well). He was riding with the much smaller ADR team in 1989. Do we know anything about doping on the ADR squad?

[William]

Lemond was only on the PDM team for one season, and as noted did not ride the TdeF that year (and missed much of the rest of the season as well). He was riding with the much smaller ADR team in 1989. Do we know anything about doping on the ADR squad?

Nothing I could find earlier on the ADR team. Page 1 covers 1980 - 1995...
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=91165&highlight=doping




William

[malcolm]

It's all about the money. I have always been told and as I get older I find it to be true, "if you don't understand something, follow the money".

The NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. each probably wasted more money on Monday of this week than UCI's 2013 entire budget. Most division 1 Universities have bigger football budgets that most if not all pro cycling teams. Their commisioners and management "earn" way more than Hein ever dreams about. There is a vested intrest in keeping it all about the sport and making it entertaining for the fans. How much are tickets on the 50 for an NFL game? How much are good tickets for an NBA game? MLB? Now, Just try getting tickets to watch USA Crit Nationals this year. Know where to buy them? You can't, it's free, just show up and watch. Pay-per-view?, it's not even televised, anywhere. It's the most imprtant criterium in the USA and it's free. How can you make money if you give all of your product away? Sport is all about the dollars, not athleticism.

Part of these dollars are used to make sure that there are very few scandals that could give the sport a black eye.

Lets open 1 eye just a little bit, take a recruited High School football player for example, 225, 40 in 4.8. Big, strong and fast. Goes to a Div. 1 school. Fast forward 4 years, 290 and 40 in 4.3. Are we supposed to believe that he did that on milkshakes and cheeseburgers??? He then goes to the NFL and gets even bigger and faster??? How??? Hundreds of guys do this. This isn't an anomoly.

Big money = no real testing = no non-negatives = more money.

You really don't even have to get that complicated. Step back and look at any competitive human behavior. There is cheating in schools many times aided and abetted by teachers/administration. Sport at all levels has cheating. The olympics have been rife with it as long as I can remember. Add money and the incidence goes up. All pro sports have cheating unless it provides no benefit. If bowling, which I know nothing about can figure a way to bowl better people are going to do it.
It is a basic human drive to perform better than your peers, at least for most people and with that you'll always have those looking for an advantage. As the stakes go up so does the likely hood of cheating

The only way to have clean sport is with clear simple rules, testing that works (easier said than done) and zero tolerance.

Then genetics comes into play some folks are just born with greater vo2max and higher natural hematocrits. Some strength athletes have longer insertions across the joints. Some people are just taller or built better for a given sport. Life isn't fair and it often takes more than just hard work. We tend to have this belief that if you just work hard enough you can do anything, well I'm a believer in hard work but there is more to it than just that.

[cachagua]

Okay fine, seven out of eight PDM riders doped, and I can tell you something else:

Shakespeare, Mozart, and George Washington were all black men. Yes!

There was a guy -- this is actually true, I used to work with him -- a tenured professor at a major university, whose whole career was based on claiming African ancestry for historical figures previously thought to be "white". His documentation checks out, his sources are unchallengeable... but does it really change anything?

Not a heck of a lot. However: the fact that people pay attention to him -- well, that sure changes his salary, doesn't it!

I will only say, y'all are being very, very generous to the media figures who sell this inconsequential gossip.

[Mark McM]

Okay fine, seven out of eight PDM riders doped, and I can tell you something else:

Shakespeare, Mozart, and George Washington were all black men. Yes!

If you subscribe to the 'Out of Africa' theory off human evolution and migration (the prevailing theory), then we all have african ancestors, if you go back far enough.