Indurain speaks about LA's confession

[Black Dog]

From Velonews:

Meanwhile, Spain’s Miguel Indurain, a five-time Tour champion, also weighed in on Armstrong’s admission that he doped his way to seven Tour triumphs, saying it had done serious damage to the sport.

“It’s bad for everyone — riders, organizers, teams — especially at a time when we are trying to correct the mistakes and look ahead,” said Indurain.

Indurain also said he believes that the scandal shows that drug testing in cycling is not effective as it should be.

“It shows how imperfect the testing is and that we need to keep working on it,” he said.

I must say, the level of potential hypocrisy here is amazing. He is the last man standing from the EPO era. Five in a row against an EPO doped peleton is suspect. I don't know why I am surprised or even bother by his comments in what has become circus, yet strangely I am. It seems that there ore two types of riders that think we should drop it and move on: 1. Those that are hiding their past and do not want to be exposed, and 2. Those that are newer to the sport and do not want to tarred by the past that they were not a part of.

Sorry...Rant over.

[gemship]

I hear you and just for arguement's sake I read a bit, educated myself on the Andreu's. I was flamed in a earlier thread about LA regarding my opinion on Betsy speaking out on CNN. Admittedly at the time I was not informed on how LA did her wrong but I still believe I am right in my opinion of her being...in a word witchy.

Frankie doped and admitted to it. His wife is openly being a sour puss for all to hear. Maybe it's me but guys like him Indurain, Hamilton to name a few all lose a fair amount of credibility due to their own transgressions and getting caught. It's a two sided arguement, they have the info being who they are and yet you know they have a biased opinion and a rep to maintain.

[FlashUNC]

Yeah, getting a decade of crap thrown at you for testifying truthfully in a deposition.

Betsy's the "witchy" one.

Give me a break.

[RonW87]

If you consider Betsy "witchy", you've lost credibility on anything else.

Ron

[gemship]

Yeah, getting a decade of crap thrown at you for testifying truthfully in a deposition.

Betsy's the "witchy" one.

Give me a break.


what exactly is the crap? I don't even think Lance personally threatened her but it was other people that supported him. Look she married a pro cyclist that doped at a point in his career. She's outspoken with her opinion and you know everybody has one. I don't feel anymore sorry for her than Lance. Although I feel I would value more what Frankie has to say of it all than she does and even then I just don't care much about it. They were all in bed together in a matter of speaking.

[Vientomas]

I hear you and just for arguement's sake I read a bit, educated myself on the Andreu's. I was flamed in a earlier thread about LA regarding my opinion on Betsy speaking out on CNN. Admittedly at the time I was not informed on how LA did her wrong but I still believe I am right in my opinion of her being...in a word witchy.

Frankie doped and got caught. His wife is openly being a sour puss for all to hear. Maybe it's me but guys like him Indurain, Hamilton to name a few all lose a fair amount of credibility due to their own transgressions and getting caught. It's a two sided arguement, they have the info being who they are and yet you know they have a biased opinion and a rep to maintain.

Frankie got caught? I thought he did not get caught but came out with an admission?

[gemship]

If you consider Betsy "witchy", you've lost credibility on anything else.

Ron

The cnn interview posted was a ridiculous scene to watch. She was a first class whiner but I get it...there are some serious Lance haters on here who rightfully take the double standard...and there it is sour grapes for you.

[gemship]

Frankie got caught? I thought he did not get caught but came out with an admission?

Perhaps you're right, I did double think that but then I posted and I am not going to correct my post, I enjoy the feedback on this. Actually now that I think about it a admission is even better. I love people that admit to doing wrong and then the next belief in their mind is that everyone should stand on the same moral ground and come clean. Seems like a double standard.

I do have respect for Frankie for the fact that he doesn't seem to go out of his way to publicly demand things from LA that are seemingly ridiculous, his wife on the other hand I can't say the same. The funnier thing about that still is she was merely married to him and even he admits he was just a speck in a mess of all this.

[54ny77]

wow, swoop's back.

[FlashUNC]

what exactly is the crap? I don't even think Lance personally threatened her but it was other people that supported him. Look she married a pro cyclist that doped at a point in his career. She's outspoken with her opinion and you know everybody has one. I don't feel anymore sorry for her than Lance. Although I feel I would value more what Frankie has to say of it all than she does and even then I just don't care much about it. They were all in bed together in a matter of speaking.

Lance has admitted to calling her a crazy bitch.

As recently as last year, Frankie's Team Kenda was getting squeezed out of races because of the Andreu's public comments about Lance's doping admission to his cancer docs. Lancr's personal rep from Oakley left threatening messages for them during that whole affair, including threats that someone should break a baseball bat over her head. It was a coordinated campaign of fear an intimidation from Lance and his camp to try to stifle the truth.

You deal with that for nearly a decade -- for telling the truth -- and see how you start to act. Betsy and Frankie are heroes in this whole process.

[Vientomas]

Perhaps you're right, I did double think that but then I posted and I am not going to correct my post, I enjoy the feedback on this. Actually now that I think about it a admission is even better. I love people that admit to doing wrong and then the next belief in their mind is that everyone should stand on the same moral ground and come clean.

Just trying to keep the facts straight.

[gemship]

Lance has admitted to calling her a crazy bitch.

As recently as last year, Frankie's Team Kenda was getting squeezed out of races because of the Andreu's public comments about Lance's doping admission to his cancer docs. Lancr's personal rep from Oakley left threatening messages for them during that whole affair, including threats that someone should break a baseball bat over her head. It was a coordinated campaign of fear an intimidation from Lance and his camp to try to stifle the truth.

You deal with that for nearly a decade -- for telling the truth -- and see how you start to act. Betsy and Frankie are heroes in this whole process.


Maybe the reps that threatened them should be prosecuted for that, I can see the link to them being promoters for LA but it's not like LA personally called them and did that. Being called a crazy bitch in this world is nothing...I have been called worse things and they aren't worth considering a apology especially when I consider the source. That cnn interview had her looking like a crazy pissed bitch. She may of had good reason but honestly you do your thing in court and the best thing is to take the high road and walk away. Trash talk is what it is. When I had seen that interview all I could think is just more fuel for the fire.

[gemship]

Just trying to keep the facts straight.

Absolutely you are totally right. I don't think it really matters much anyway. At least for me. Cheats talking about cheats is what it is.

Ps-I corrected my post.

[Dave B]

I dig the fact that Frankie's wife, who has never been a paid professional at the level of Frankie stands up for her husband and what is right (the truth) with such passion. I would hope my wife would be as passionate if I ever am as screwed over as Lance did to Frankie.

In my mind she has every right to act as she chooses when she has told the same story year after year for a decade only to be ridiculed by everyone who supported Lance.

A decade of frustration and vindication on the most public level...yeah I would probably be "witchy" as well. Women are so often seen that way when they are as agressive and outspoken as men. Shame.

When Lance begins to hand out checks to those he has effed over, I hope Betsy is the first in line and then sneaks back into line a few times.

[jet sanchez]

This sport is as dirty as any other sport but, for whatever reason, the people who organized it were naive about the implications and effects of "outing" doping. They should have let sleeping dogs lie.

Now, Joe Q. Public thinks that the dirtiest sport in the world is cycling and every other organized sport is thinking "Welp, we better never examine ourselves too closely because look what happened to cycling". Furthermore, any sport in the future that does get even the smallest hint of a whiff of doping will be able to say "Welp, at least we are not as dirty as cycling, it is just a few bad eggs, we will clean it up" and the public will buy it because they have been sold a story about how dirty cycling is. Sucks.

[gemship]

I dig the fact that Frankie's wife, who has never been a paid professional at the level of Frankie stands up for her husband and what is right (the truth) with such passion. I would hope my wife would be as passionate if I ever am as screwed over as Lance did to Frankie.

In my mind she has every right to act as she chooses when she has told the same story year after year for a decade only to be ridiculed by everyone who supported Lance.

A decade of frustration and vindication on the most public level...yeah I would probably be "witchy" as well. Women are so often seen that way when they are as agressive and outspoken as men. Shame.

When Lance begins to hand out checks to those he has effed over, I hope Betsy is the first in line and then sneaks back into line a few times.

We could just consider Witchy a gender neutral term as I would just as happily label a guy that too. The more I think about it I could even imagine what she has to say as no big deal but with one huge caveat. That it be between her, Lance and Frankie along with who ever else was in that room. I guess we have come to a age where it's ok for the media to tape this stuff and turn it into the Jerry Springer show.

[gemship]

I probably should of just started my own thread on this. I wonder why Frankie doesn't speak out more. Is it his personality in that he just doesn't and that's the way he rolls?

[gasman]

i dig the fact that frankie's wife, who has never been a paid professional at the level of frankie stands up for her husband and what is right (the truth) with such passion. I would hope my wife would be as passionate if i ever am as screwed over as lance did to frankie.

In my mind she has every right to act as she chooses when she has told the same story year after year for a decade only to be ridiculed by everyone who supported lance.

A decade of frustration and vindication on the most public level...yeah i would probably be "witchy" as well. Women are so often seen that way when they are as agressive and outspoken as men. Shame.

When lance begins to hand out checks to those he has effed over, i hope betsy is the first in line and then sneaks back into line a few times.

+1

[merlincustom1]

Maybe the reps that threatened them should be prosecuted for that, I can see the link to them being promoters for LA but it's not like LA personally called them and did that. Being called a crazy bitch in this world is nothing...

You were doing a lot better when you were flamed for expressing an opinion on something you knew nothing about. There are a lot of ahole men running around who try to deflect their poor treatment of women by resorting to some variation of the "she's a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" defense. LA is the archetype for that. Limbaugh too.

[gemship]

You were doing a lot better when you were flamed for expressing an opinion on something you knew nothing about. There are a lot of ahole men running around who try to deflect their poor treatment of women by resorting to some variation of the "she's a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" defense. LA is the archetype for that. Limbaugh too.

Yeah but the funny thing here is I am not being sexist, I just picked witchy as a label out of a whole host of them and Betsy is female and it is assumed that I am a male...

I am getting a bit educated on the subject but what I find is that I get annoyed with trash talking interviews. I come from the school of thought that when someone publicly accuses somebody of being a master manipulator it is they the accuser that is doing the manipulating. I am taking a unpopular position and I look like a defender of Lance. Honestly I have no personal ties to him, I am not a fan. I just see it as popular to bash Lance and I suppose everybody is just eating up all this bad press. I would have a lot more respect for Betsy if her husband had never doped. Since she is willing to go public with it all is there more to the story? Did she and Frank at one point conspire to be great at keeping doping a secret and at what point did they decided they weren't cool enough to hang with Lance? Was it even their decision? If Frank was only a domestique caliber rider maybe the dollar signs weren't great enough?

I don't know but like Indurain I just see credibility and think look who called the kettle black.

[jpw]

are Armstrong and Bruyneel working together on their strategies behind the scenes? Is JB going to try to pull a rabbit out of a hat?

[merlincustom1]

I don't feel anymore sorry for her than Lance.

I'd love to see the syllogism that equates Lance and Betsy in that regard. Does the distinction between he brought everything upon himself/she brought nothing upon herself have meaning to you?

[gemship]

I'd love to see the syllogism that equates Lance and Betsy in that regard. Does the distinction between he brought everything upon himself/she brought nothing upon herself have meaning to you?

I am not sure I can answer this without reiterating my previous posts. I just watched another recent Betsy interview. I watch her and I just think she has a real grudge and at some point it just seems like she feels money or a apology is not enough.Then what it is? She doesn't seem like a nice person in her interviews any more than Lance does.

[Kirk007]

[QUOTE=gemship;1277793]Yeah but the funny thing here is I am not being sexist, I just picked witchy as a label out of a whole host of them and Betsy is female and it is assumed that I am a male...

I am getting a bit educated on the subject but what I find is that I get annoyed with trash talking interviews. I come from the school of thought that when someone publicly accuses somebody of being a master manipulator it is they the accuser that is doing the manipulating. I am taking a unpopular position and I look like a defender of Lance. Honestly I have no personal ties to him, I am not a fan. I just see it as popular to bash Lance and I suppose everybody is just eating up all this bad press. I would have a lot more respect for Betsy if her husband had never doped. Since she is willing to go public with it all is there more to the story? Did she and Frank at one point conspire to be great at keeping doping a secret and at what point did they decided they weren't cool enough to hang with Lance? Was it even their decision? If Frank was only a domestique caliber rider maybe the dollar signs weren't great enough?

/QUOTE]

Dude or dudet - were you even around back in the late 80s and 90s when Frankie was riding or how about when this first broke with Betsy and Frankie and the hospital statements? There is history here - lots of it. If you haven't taken the time to learn it perhaps you should before you start talking smack about people you don't know. As just one example, calling a guy who finished 4th in the 86 Olympic road race among other things "only a domestique caliber rider" is rather witchy in itself.

[merlincustom1]

I would have a lot more respect for Betsy if her husband had never doped. Since she is willing to go public with it all is there more to the story? Did she and Frank at one point conspire to be great at keeping doping a secret and at what point did they decided they weren't cool enough to hang with Lance? Was it even their decision? If Frank was only a domestique caliber rider maybe the dollar signs weren't great enough.

You certainly have a right to an opinion, but it would be an informed one if it were based on facts.

[gemship]

/QUOTE]
"only a domestique caliber rider" is rather witchy in itself.[/QUOTE]



actually I think I read that somewhere that Betsy herself stated her husband was riding at a domestique level and it was therefore obvious he was producing more performance when he was doping. I think even on wikipedia he is described as a superdomestique. Is there a difference?

[gemship]

You certainly have a right to an opinion, but it would be an informed one if it were based on facts.

I watched what someone posted, a cnn interview and was curious. I don't think Jesus himself would go the lengths she did to defend himself. Trash talk is what it is. It is popular to bash Lance so I guess people feel it's ok for her to talk like that. She married a doper who happened to be a teammate of Armstong. Do you really believe her word is the end all gospel? I mean what really happened? What are we not being told here? Heck I even suspect Lemond may of doped but then there's the fact that doping didn't exist when he was at the top of his game or did it?

[Kirk007]

I watched what someone posted, a cnn interview and was curious.

ok now that we all know the knowledge base that you are coming from we can move on.

[mcteague]

I am not sure I can answer this without reiterating my previous posts. I just watched another recent Betsy interview. I watch her and I just think she has a real grudge and at some point it just seems like she feels money or a apology is not enough.Then what it is? She doesn't seem like a nice person in her interviews any more than Lance does.

You are just amazing. Have you been following what she has gone through the last 10 years. And, just as LA is supposed to have come clean, as it were, he still won't admit what was said in the hospital. No wonder she seems worked up. I could not have kept it together as well as she on CNN that night.

At this point, I can't keep reading all the posts from Lance fans any longer. You hooked your hero cart to the wrong horse. Get over it and stop attacking the people LA ran over, backed up and ran over again.

Tim

[gemship]

ok now that we all know the knowledge base that you are coming from we can move on.


I completely hijacked this thread just because it's a hot topic and people keep quoting me, mission accomplished:p

[Kirk007]

I completely hijacked this thread just because it's a hot topic and people keep quoting me, mission accomplished:p

go for a ride.

[earlfoss]

Betsy has had her 15min, and maybe by the 17th minute she'll go WAY over the top and the public will just discount her as a kook.

Her exposure is becoming a little too saturated for how intense (crazy) she comes off.

[merlincustom1]

Trash talk is what it is. It is popular to bash Lance so I guess people feel it's ok for her to talk like that. She married a doper who happened to be a teammate of Armstong. Do you really believe her word is the end all gospel? I mean what really happened? What are we not being told here? Heck I even suspect Lemond may of doped but then there's the fact that doping didn't exist when he was at the top of his game or did it?

1.You need to revisit your opinion once you read all you can about the hospital room admission.
2. Doping existed in the LeMond era in answer to your satirical question.

Betsy's point on cnn, behind the anger, is that she will continue to doubt LA's word if he won't come clean publically on the hospital room admission. He won't do so because his doctor gave a statement that LA never gave a history of drug use and LA doesn't want to call his doctor a liar. A short time later LA dropped a ton of cash on the hospital.

[gemship]

You are just amazing. Have you been following what she has gone through the last 10 years. And, just as LA is supposed to have come clean, as it were, he still won't admit what was said in the hospital. No wonder she seems worked up. I could not have kept it together as well as she on CNN that night.

At this point, I can't keep reading all the posts from Lance fans any longer. You hooked your hero cart to the wrong horse. Get over it and stop attacking the people LA ran over, backed up and ran over again.

Tim

Yeah but what about the doctors that supposedly were in that room listening? Why don't they speak up? What would they have to lose. Why should Lance admit anything that was said? You know taking the high road is very hard to do when you feel wronged and cnn approaches you and you know dam well there is a audience for it. A supportive audience at that. I think what Betsy expects is a bit dramatic and she probably couldn't even handle a real apology, what ever that is... too much hate.

I am not a fan but I just see all the folks close to Lance as being in bed with him and it's hard to paint this rosy pic of Betsy as just one of the good guys. There is stuff that went on that nobody here will ever know about I am sure.

[Tony T]

Yeah but what about the doctors that supposedly were in that room listening? Why don't they speak up?

Uh...patient confidentiality, maybe you've heard of it? (and it wasn't the Doctors who were "listening", it was the Andreus)

[gemship]

Uh...patient confidentiality, maybe you've heard of it? (and it wasn't the Doctors who were "listening", it was the Andreus)

yeah I know I just needed it spelled out for this conversation. Here is a good question would Betsy's bite be a little less harsh if she and Frank weren't listening that day? Would things be any different for Lance? What does she really expect? Her husband doped right along side of the guy...

[Black Dog]

Yeah but what about the doctors that supposedly were in that room listening? Why don't they speak up? What would they have to lose. Why should Lance admit anything that was said? You know taking the high road is very hard to do when you feel wronged and cnn approaches you and you know dam well there is a audience for it. A supportive audience at that. I think what Betsy expects is a bit dramatic and she probably couldn't even handle a real apology, what ever that is... too much hate.

I am not a fan but I just see all the folks close to Lance as being in bed with him and it's hard to paint this rosy pic of Betsy as just one of the good guys. There is stuff that went on that nobody here will ever know about I am sure.

You don not know because you have not looked into it. Do not assume that everyone shares your ignorance. When she found out that her husband was taking EPO she told him to stop or she would walk. He is lucky she did not leave him. She has been a consistent and principled voice throughout this and it has cost her and her husband dearly. Do you have the courage of her convictions? Would you kiss Lance's ass and hide the truth or take a beating from Lance for telling the truth?

[gemship]

Betsy has had her 15min, and maybe by the 17th minute she'll go WAY over the top and the public will just discount her as a kook.

Her exposure is becoming a little too saturated for how intense (crazy) she comes off.

You nailed it in way less words I ever could. Honestly I spend too much time on this forum.

I always have to remind myself that I am a member here because when it was the Serotta forum I was required to register in order to look at the bike pics but you know there is only so much to look at and talk about with bikes. Oh and I have a bike that is somewhat desirable to folks that like light carbon racing bikes and I think I should sell it. It would be nice to use these classifieds to advertise it but at this point I may be digging my grave to try and sell it here:p

[slidey]

You probably should! The thread said something about being in-the-rain, and sure enough I find you casting spells on Betsy :cool:

Also, since we're talking facts...let's get one thing straight here. Betsy Andreu never lied on this topic, Lance did continually (including interview on Oprah when he claimed that he didn't dope in his comeback years, and still had no way of explaining how the probability of his blood being clean was less than one in a million). What then is your motivation to nag the pants out of everyone on the forum by talking about how Betsy reacted? Everyone's different, everyone reacts differently...as long as people's reactions aren't stepping over the line (middle east crisis) there's room for all kinds of harmless expression. Don't like it? Turn the volume down!

I probably should of just started my own thread on this.

[gemship]

You probably should! The thread said something about being in-the-rain, and sure enough I find you casting spells on Betsy :cool:

Also, since we're talking facts...let's get one thing straight here. Betsy Andreu never lied on this topic, Lance did continually (including interview on Oprah when he claimed that he didn't dope in his comeback years, and still had no way of explaining how the probability of his blood being clean was less than one in a million). What then is your motivation to nag the pants out of everyone on the forum by talking about how Betsy reacted? Everyone's different, everyone reacts differently...as long as people's reactions aren't stepping over the line (middle east crisis) there's room for all kinds of harmless expression. Don't like it? Turn the volume down!

Yeah but how much do you really know? You only know what you hear and read. Where is the rest of the dirt. One can only imagine there is so much more.


I just see a likeness to Indurain and I am doing way too much here to defend my point. Ok I know someone is going to quote me again but I promise I am done here.

[54ny77]

Gemship, have you actually read anything on this topic or are your opinions just stream-of-consciousness? I'm not sure what dog you have in the Lance/Betsy hunt, but you might want to go & read the many, many pages of articles that point to sealed & sworn testimony about that particular incident. Even better, read USADA's reasoned decision.

There's a reason Lance didn't answer the hospital question on Oprah--the effects of perjury would spiral out of control, impacting doctors, institutions (the hospital), various supporters and Lance himself. Specifically, Armstong, his mom, Bill Stapleton, Lance's doc Craig Nichols, Indiana University Medical Center, Stephanie McIlvain, Lisa Shiels, Chris Carmichael and his wife, and Jim Ochowicz.

As the SCA litigation threat unfolds (their demand of the return of $ paid as insurer of TDF bonus payments), we will see more unfold on that topic.

For starters, read Addendum Part II of the USADA reasoned decision:

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf


Yeah but what about the doctors that supposedly were in that room listening? Why don't they speak up? What would they have to lose. Why should Lance admit anything that was said? You know taking the high road is very hard to do when you feel wronged and cnn approaches you and you know dam well there is a audience for it. A supportive audience at that. I think what Betsy expects is a bit dramatic and she probably couldn't even handle a real apology, what ever that is... too much hate.

I am not a fan but I just see all the folks close to Lance as being in bed with him and it's hard to paint this rosy pic of Betsy as just one of the good guys. There is stuff that went on that nobody here will ever know about I am sure.

[Elefantino]

Thread re-drift:

Indurain is now the only "clean" champion of the doping era (even though he was popped for an inhalant in 1994). But in the absence of existing samples on which to test, we only have numbers to go by. And these numbers (http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/savage/Cycling/LookingAtTheData/AIC.html) don't put Indurain in a particularly good light.

Remember, LeMond said he was in the best shape of his life in 1991 and finished seventh. He said he noticed a marked lift in the peloton speed that year. It's when EPO hit heavy.

[fiamme red]

Remember, LeMond said he was in the best shape of his life in 1991 and finished seventh. He said he noticed a marked lift in the peloton speed that year. It's when EPO hit heavy.LeMond may have said said that he was in the best shape of his life in 1991, but his palmares for that year don't back up his claim. Well, he did finish 12th in the Tour DuPont. :rolleyes:

http://www.greglemondfan.com/1991.html

[oldpotatoe]

I am not sure I can answer this without reiterating my previous posts. I just watched another recent Betsy interview. I watch her and I just think she has a real grudge and at some point it just seems like she feels money or a apology is not enough.Then what it is? She doesn't seem like a nice person in her interviews any more than Lance does.

Sometimes when you get screwed bad enough the point is not money or an apology. The damage is done and 'just let it go', doesn't really work. BUT staying pissed off is OK.

I sure don't equate Betsy with Lance in any way, shape or form. You don't like her demeanor because of a couple of interviews..too bad, you really know little of what conspired between her, AND Anderson, OReilly, Floyd or Tyler.

So she seems 'wichy', how quaint. I think she's showing great restraint and If I were her and lance called, i would tell him to KMA.

[RonW87]

LeMond may have said said that he was in the best shape of his life in 1991, but his palmares for that year don't back up his claim. Well, he did finish 12th in the Tour DuPont. :rolleyes:

http://www.greglemondfan.com/1991.html

I think you're missing the point. The reason his palmares dropped was NOT that he wasn't objectively in the best shape of his life. What was good enough to win the Tour a couple of years earlier was now only good enough to be an also ran. Everybody else all of a sudden got better.

[fiamme red]

I think you're missing the point. The reason his palmares dropped was NOT that he wasn't objectively in the best shape of his life. What was good enough to win the Tour a couple of years earlier was now only good enough to be an also ran. Everybody else all of a sudden got better.So all the other teams suddenly were using EPO in the 1991 season, except Team Z?

By the way, LeMond did win the Tour DuPont in 1992, so he was still capable of winning a minor pro stage race.

[merlincustom1]

I think you're missing the point. The reason his palmares dropped was NOT that he wasn't objectively in the best shape of his life. What was good enough to win the Tour a couple of years earlier was now only good enough to be an also ran. Everybody else all of a sudden got better.

IIRC, LeMond attributed his drop in performance to mitochondrial myelopathy as a residual of his gunshot wounds, but I forget the year he first raised that possible explanation.

[rain dogs]

We'll never know for sure with Indurain... until we know, which may be never. I've seen evidence from both side of it. What's surprising to me is that many (almost all) think Wiggins is clean as a whistle and yet the same refuse to believe Indurain could have been. They're similar riders (in style and size) only Indurain had on average 200km of TT's to work with when he was winning... compared to Wiggo's 100ish km last year. Few, if any, call Wiggo an EPO rider or questions his climbing prowess?!?!?

This chart from Science of Sport shows that 1995 is about the only really suspect year for him, perhaps '94:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ua8ycqfc4ok/SlymU76zHDI/AAAAAAAABoE/4QK-D3z4fyA/s400/Tour+winner+power+to+weight.gif

And this recent study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22868823) shows that unless Indurain is still taking EPO at 46 and 92.2kg! and while he's farming in Navarra... he's still a machine. He can pump out 4.88W/kg and 450W! At his lowest weight of 78kg... that would be 5.77W/kg.

"Nevertheless, Indurain's absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists."

I don't believe he was clean for all 5... but by those numbers, the guy is clearly no "average" doped-up champ from the past. We'll also always be curious why he left the sport at a fairly young age of 32 and didn't want to go to ONCE.

Like I said, who knows with Indurain? Irrespective, the guy is still allowed to have an opinion.

[Elefantino]

IIRC, LeMond attributed his drop in performance to mitochondrial myelopathy as a residual of his gunshot wounds, but I forget the year he first raised that possible explanation.
IIRC it was the second half of 1992, including the Tour, although he didn't announce it until 1994.

[malcolm]

First off let me say I'm a Betsy fan. She is the only person in this whole mess best I can tell that has never changed her story at all. After having said that the doctor question still intrigues me. As a physician I can tell you I wouldn't lie for Lance and I can say with as much certainty as you can ever have concerning someone else none of my partners would have ever lied to protect a celebrity or athlete. Also if Lance had told the doctor that, wouldn't he have made it part of the medical record which I assume has been subject to subpoena?

None of the above changes anything. I think Betsy told what she thinks is the truth and has stuck by it. Lance has treated her the way he treated anyone that challenged his world by attacking her especially her character and doing so from a position of far greater power than either her or frankie.

[CunegoFan]

I don't believe he was clean for all 5... but by those numbers, the guy is clearly no "average" doped-up champ from the past. We'll also always be curious why he left the sport at a fairly young age of 32 and didn't want to go to ONCE.


He left so he would not have to race under the 50% hematocrit rule.

[Vientomas]

First off let me say I'm a Betsy fan. She is the only person in this whole mess best I can tell that has never changed her story at all. After having said that the doctor question still intrigues me. As a physician I can tell you I wouldn't lie for Lance and I can say with as much certainty as you can ever have concerning someone else none of my partners would have ever lied to protect a celebrity or athlete. Also if Lance had told the doctor that, wouldn't he have made it part of the medical record which I assume has been subject to subpoena?

None of the above changes anything. I think Betsy told what she thinks is the truth and has stuck by it. Lance has treated her the way he treated anyone that challenged his world by attacking her especially her character and doing so from a position of far greater power than either her or frankie.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=5522910

The episode was first reported publicly in a 2004 book co-written by journalists David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, "L.A. Confidentiel," which was only published in French. The book came to the notice of SCA Promotions, a Texas insurance company that had signed a contract with the Postal team's ownership to pay Armstrong a $5 million bonus if he won a record-breaking sixth Tour. The hospital room incident, along with other allegations against Armstrong, prompted the company's refusal to pay the bonus.

Armstrong sued, and the case went to arbitration. The Andreus gave depositions under oath about what they had seen and heard. Armstrong testified that the conversation they described never took place. His supervising physician, Dr. Craig Nichols, signed an affidavit stating that he had not asked Armstrong the questions recounted by the Andreus and that he could find no reference to the subject in Armstrong's medical records. The Andreus could not identify the doctors who came into the room but said Nichols was not one of them.

Another person present in the hospital room was Armstrong's friend Stephanie McIlvain, a representative for Oakley Inc., one of Armstrong's longtime sponsors. Betsy Andreu has said that in private conversations afterward, McIlvain acknowledged hearing the same thing she had.

In 2004, three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond, who had by then publicly cast doubt on the legitimacy of Armstrong's performances, phoned McIlvain and recorded the call without her knowledge. He elicited what seemed to be corroboration of the Andreus' recollection of the hospital room incident. "I'm not going to lie," McIlvain told LeMond. "You know, I was in that room. I heard it." However, McIlvain, the only other witness asked about the incident under oath, testified that she remembered being in the room but did not recall the conversation about drugs.

[dsimon]

:help:BOYS have Penis's and Girl Have viginas...... Sorry IM tired at the end of the day it all sucks

[C50]

I just read through most of this thread. After reading the first post by gemship I am left shaking my head as to why anyone would have a negative word about the ONLY person involved first hand in this situation that has made the correct choice from day one. She told her fiance that day in the hospital she didn't want to be part of any doping and if he was she wouldn't marry him. As we all know he did it for the 99 Tour and did not for the 2000 Tour and his contract was not renewed. When you support your family as a pro bike rider but don't have a contract that directly impacts the family so I would say from that day forward she has a right to have a problem with Lance. A few years later with the SCA depositions where she again told the truth when it would have been a much easier path for her and her husband trying to make a living in the cycling world Betsy told the truth. Some others did not. Stephanie McIlvain denied hearing anything and she was in the room but here is part of the transcript from a conversation with Greg LeMond which he taped. The whole thing is out there if you search for it. I have heard the whole thing:

Greg Lemond – Betsy and I have talked a little bit. But, and I, and I'm not asking You to do
anything You would never want to do. But know, if, if I did get, get down to clear it with a You
know, with a Lawsuit, am, are, are..........would You be willing to testify or..............


Stephanie Mcllvain – If I was subpoenaed I would. Because I am not going to lie. You know I was
in that room, "I HEARD IT". You know and, and, am, I definitely wont lie, You know, am, Yea.


Stephanie Mcllvain - My whole concern is My loyalty to Oakley, You know. I don't want all of a
sudden, Me to go in there and I, You know, testify pretty willingly.


The problem is Stephanie did lie for Lance as so many others did but NEVER BETSY. If I had kids I would want them to follow her example and not Lance's!! So before you go blasting her for her interview you should know the history behind the rage and the emotion. If everyone in cycling had the courage of Betsy to choose right over easy cycling as a sport would be in a much better place!

[C50]

To Vientomas: I must have been typing the same timeas you. I could have just waited and said ditto

[christian]

You nailed it in way less words I ever could. Honestly I spend too much time on this forum.There's something we can agree on. Bikeforums seems to have lost its village idiot.

[Marz]

Eh, Gemship, so Betty is "witchy" (which is not gender neutral) and a "crazy bitch" and, you sir, sound like a "sexist pig".

I'm a male person BTW.

Also, you really need to do some research. Try David Walsh's 'Seven Deadly Sins' when it's released.

[Dave B]

Let us all move on.

If we have learned anything about Lance and every single thread we have discussed here is that we all come from different perspectives in life.

If you have been directly harmed by Lance and his saga, then by all means you are deserved of any ill will and vitrol. Those of us who are disgusted, emotional, indifferent, and whatever else, he admitted to doping. Anything else is semantics and agendas better served on other aspects of our fine sport. Cycling is moving on, athletes are training (take that for what you will) and the races will begin very soon.

My bike is in the que and I cannot wait to begin...well again the sport I have loved.

I say maybe we have covered most of what we need to regarding Lance. People are pissed and have a right to be and others are pissed because they like being pissed about stuff.

Have a great evening as I just got the call we have a 2 hour delay tomorrow and I get to sleep in a bit longer.

Next topic...the girl scouts and their evil cookie empire and selling tactics.


Peace!

[Marz]

Why do we need to move on?

I know I'm capable of being engaged with more than one issue at the same time.

Dishonesty is worthwhile discussing and the ethics of sport are an ongoing conversation. Lance is a big story and a lot of people have been engaged with the story either positively or negatively for that last 13 years at least. Why does comment need to disengage abruptly?

It's all fascinatinating, interesting and important culturally.

I can still engage in politics, world hunger, poverty, etc while discussing Lance and the people whose dreams were destroyed at the same time.

[gemship]

Sometimes when you get screwed bad enough the point is not money or an apology. The damage is done and 'just let it go', doesn't really work. BUT staying pissed off is OK.

I sure don't equate Betsy with Lance in any way, shape or form. You don't like her demeanor because of a couple of interviews..too bad, you really know little of what conspired between her, AND Anderson, OReilly, Floyd or Tyler.

So she seems 'wichy', how quaint. I think she's showing great restraint and If I were her and lance called, i would tell him to KMA.

OK so I was thinking about it and I get all that you and others say but here's the thing. I question Betsy's heroism for the simple fact that it took a subpoena for her to stand on this high moral ground on doping in sports. Yes she has been a loud mouth, outspoken when some of us tend to validate the opinion of Frankie's which personally I would value more but at any rate... it just seems like the three of them were in bed together for so long. She really expect Lance to do the same for her that her husband would. Gimme a break.


I think Lance is sleazy sure but I also tend to associate people like Frankie and Betsy as his former cronies not heros.

[gemship]

There's something we can agree on. Bikeforums seems to have lost its village idiot.

Now don't look too hard in the mirror your the same bright bulb that would get in a car with that nut Pastrana...:p

See my above comment quoting old cold tater, may not make sense to you but I am also, besides being a village idiot, cold hearted and cynical to all the players in this Lance debacle.

[malcolm]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=5522910

The episode was first reported publicly in a 2004 book co-written by journalists David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, "L.A. Confidentiel," which was only published in French. The book came to the notice of SCA Promotions, a Texas insurance company that had signed a contract with the Postal team's ownership to pay Armstrong a $5 million bonus if he won a record-breaking sixth Tour. The hospital room incident, along with other allegations against Armstrong, prompted the company's refusal to pay the bonus.

Armstrong sued, and the case went to arbitration. The Andreus gave depositions under oath about what they had seen and heard. Armstrong testified that the conversation they described never took place. His supervising physician, Dr. Craig Nichols, signed an affidavit stating that he had not asked Armstrong the questions recounted by the Andreus and that he could find no reference to the subject in Armstrong's medical records. The Andreus could not identify the doctors who came into the room but said Nichols was not one of them.

Another person present in the hospital room was Armstrong's friend Stephanie McIlvain, a representative for Oakley Inc., one of Armstrong's longtime sponsors. Betsy Andreu has said that in private conversations afterward, McIlvain acknowledged hearing the same thing she had.

In 2004, three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond, who had by then publicly cast doubt on the legitimacy of Armstrong's performances, phoned McIlvain and recorded the call without her knowledge. He elicited what seemed to be corroboration of the Andreus' recollection of the hospital room incident. "I'm not going to lie," McIlvain told LeMond. "You know, I was in that room. I heard it." However, McIlvain, the only other witness asked about the incident under oath, testified that she remembered being in the room but did not recall the conversation about drugs.

Yeah, I know all that. I still find it interesting as a physician that Lance could manipulate apparently one or more into lying under oath or altering or omitting things from the medical record. I'm not sure why it intrigues me so, I've certainly seen physicians throw away their careers trading scripts for blow jobs, etc.., but to commit perjury to cover up an athletes drug use still amazes me. I would love to know the whole story.

[Vientomas]

OK so I was thinking about it and I get all that you and others say but here's the thing. I question Betsy's heroism for the simple fact that it took a subpoena for her to stand on this high moral ground on doping in sports. Yes she has been a loud mouth, outspoken when some of us tend to validate the opinion of Frankie's which personally I would value more but at any rate... it just seems like the three of them were in bed together for so long. She really expect Lance to do the same for her that her husband would. Gimme a break.


I think Lance is sleazy sure but I also tend to associate people like Frankie and Betsy as his former cronies not heros.

So, you are saying Betsy did not talk about the "hospital room" incident until subpoenaed?

[gemship]

So, you are saying Betsy did not talk about the "hospital room" incident until subpoenaed?

that is my belief unless...again I'm mistaken. Even if I am to what extent did she speak up and why would she all the sudden take vengence on Lance that day? or the next? So if she did speak up prior to the subpoena then she made a enemy out of a long time friend and therefore it's not surprising to see the mudsling fest that went on.

[gemship]

Yeah, I know all that. I still find it interesting as a physician that Lance could manipulate apparently one or more into lying under oath or altering or omitting things from the medical record. I'm not sure why it intrigues me so, I've certainly seen physicians throw away their careers trading scripts for blow jobs, etc.., but to commit perjury to cover up an athletes drug use still amazes me. I would love to know the whole story.

ditto for me, we can't be the only ones on this forum that think this?


Albeit I have the hutzpuh to call Betsy witchy the terrible sexist pig I must be....oh boy

[Marz]

Albeit I have the hutzpuh to call Betsy witchy the terrible sexist pig I must be....oh boy[/QUOTE]

Chutzpah? (That's how you spell it, actually).

Wow, you don't get it, do you?

[oldpotatoe]

OK so I was thinking about it and I get all that you and others say but here's the thing. I question Betsy's heroism for the simple fact that it took a subpoena for her to stand on this high moral ground on doping in sports. Yes she has been a loud mouth, outspoken when some of us tend to validate the opinion of Frankie's which personally I would value more but at any rate... it just seems like the three of them were in bed together for so long. She really expect Lance to do the same for her that her husband would. Gimme a break.


I think Lance is sleazy sure but I also tend to associate people like Frankie and Betsy as his former cronies not heros.

Thought you tapped out of this thread, guess not.

lance was in bed together for a long time with others as well..until it didn't suit him so rather than just show them the door, lance intentionally tried to hurt them, personally and professionally.

The reason the dopers who confessed are seen as 'good for cycling', and lance is seen as a prick was because he is.

You don't like Betsy's manner in 2 interviews. She is aggressive, outspoken, demanding, protective of Frankie. Traits some feel uncomfortable in a woman..Not me, I applaud her and like some other women I know, not someone to cross. lance crossed her and she wants her pound of flesh..I say good for her. lance is an arrogant prick. Betsy and Frankie are the injured parties here, not lance.

[Vientomas]

Yeah, I know all that. I still find it interesting as a physician that Lance could manipulate apparently one or more into lying under oath or altering or omitting things from the medical record. I'm not sure why it intrigues me so, I've certainly seen physicians throw away their careers trading scripts for blow jobs, etc.., but to commit perjury to cover up an athletes drug use still amazes me. I would love to know the whole story.

Betsy claims Dr. Nichols was not in the room and did not ask the questions so he would not have perjured himself by denying it. Who knows what medical records Dr. Nichols reviewed for his affidavit testimony. It would be interesting to see Dr. Nichols affidavit.

It seems like the there was less then an ideal investigation into the facts and circumstances surrounding the medical side of the hospital room incident. Why weren't all of the Dr's identified and deposed and all of the medical records obtained? Poor lawyering?

[William]

Yeah, I know all that. I still find it interesting as a physician that Lance could manipulate apparently one or more into lying under oath or altering or omitting things from the medical record. I'm not sure why it intrigues me so, I've certainly seen physicians throw away their careers trading scripts for blow jobs, etc.., but to commit perjury to cover up an athletes drug use still amazes me. I would love to know the whole story.

I'm not saying it was a pay-off, and I'm not saying it wasn't....but didn't LA donate a fairly large sum of $$ to the medical center there? It may have just been a thank you for his treatment, but it does also seems to follow his M.O. of "donating"/attempting to "donate" when things smell funny (UCI, USADA, etc...).






William

[gemship]

Thought you tapped out of this thread, guess not.

lance was in bed together for a long time with others as well..until it didn't suit him so rather than just show them the door, lance intentionally tried to hurt them, personally and professionally.

The reason the dopers who confessed are seen as 'good for cycling', and lance is seen as a prick was because he is.

You don't like Betsy's manner in 2 interviews. She is aggressive, outspoken, demanding, protective of Frankie. Traits some feel uncomfortable in a woman..Not me, I applaud her and like some other women I know, not someone to cross. lance crossed her and she wants her pound of flesh..I say good for her. lance is an arrogant prick. Betsy and Frankie are the injured parties here, not lance.

I thought I tapped out too, ha,ha. Well I keep getting baited back, actually I did tap out yesterday but I reentered it today and I suppose it was my fault for being making the discussion offtopic, at this point why start another thread?

In not against just her, I suppose it's CNN in general. I think they like to give out these time pieces to snarling dog like interview. It could be guy on there with a gripe as well as a lady. I do find it amusing if not a bit frustrating that I have this sexist label thrust on me. Oh well here I am with my limited knowledge not quite making myself clear with my limited expression of thoughts thru posting. And I can only assume whomever is reading my limited perception of events and reasoning of what I have to post is of the same. I think I express myself reasonably well but I have no doubt I am not being quite clear that this discussion would be better had and more prompt in person and that's not possible. There's a funny thing because most folks I know don't care a wit about Lance, Betsy or all things Oprah or CNN related, they aren't cycling fans just working Americans too busy to find time for a bicycle much less the upper echelon of bike racing. So if I even tried to have this discussion in person I would have to go to a local bike shop and prey upon a lending ear, they could probably care less too. I don't question Betsy's sincerity or anger but I do think there is something fishy to it. I see her getting on the interviews as more damage to Lance in the public eye and even confusing to most of the public like me. She was part of the in crowd and she outed herself and she is still engaged in mudslinging. The bottomline is he apologized, a arrogant bastard he is did that and he even admitted to doping. Her talking is food for fodder not exactly heroic.

[oldpotatoe]

I thought I tapped out too, ha,ha. Well I keep getting baited back, actually I did tap out yesterday but I reentered it today and I suppose it was my fault for being making the discussion offtopic, at this point why start another thread?

In not just her manner, I suppose it's CNN in general. I think they like to give out these time pieces to snarling dog like interview. It could be guy on there with a gripe as well as a lady. I do find it amusing if not a bit frustrating that I have this sexist label thrust on me. Oh well here I am with my limited knowledge not quite making myself clear with my limited expression of thoughts thru posting. And I can only assume whomever is reading my have a limited perception of events and reasoning of what I have to post. I think I express myself reasonably well but I have no doubt I am not being quite clear that this discussion would be better had and more prompt in person and that's not possible. There's a funny thing because most folks I know don't care a wit about Lance, Betsy or all things Oprah or CNN related, they aren't cycling fans just working Americans too busy to find time for a bicycle much less the upper echelon of bike racing. So if I even tried to have this discussion in person I would have to go to a local bike shop and prey upon a lending ear, they could probably care less too. I don't question Betsy's sincerity or anger but I do think there is something fishy to it. I see her getting on the interviews as more damage to Lance in the public eye and even confusing to most of the public like me. She was part of the in crowd and she outed herself and she is still engaged in mudslinging. The bottomline is he apologized, a arrogant bastard he is did that and he even admitted to doping. Her talking is food for fodder not exactly heroic.

MY last post on this but I'll bet Betsy doesn't GAS about being a hero. I guess you have never been really screwed by anybody(I have by a biz partner...he apologized also-but to this day I only hate one person), if you had you would understand her manner and position. 'Something fishy', I guess to only a few, not me.

BTW-having lance say 'I'm sorry' to Betsy, with the same sort of demeanor as he showed with Oprah, shows he still doesn't get it.

BTW-I don't care if he 'get's it' or not. He is a arrogant lying prick, as is my biz partner, and will remain so, regardless of what they say or do.

[William]

BTW-having lance say 'I'm sorry' to Betsy, with the same sort of demeanor as he showed with Oprah, shows he still doesn't get it.

But he didn't "call her fat". That makes everything okay right?:bike:







William

[gemship]

MY last post on this but I'll bet Betsy doesn't GAS about being a hero. I guess you have never been really screwed by anybody(I have by a biz partner...he apologized also-but to this day I only hate one person), if you had you would understand her manner and position. 'Something fishy', I guess to only a few, not me.

BTW-having lance say 'I'm sorry' to Betsy, with the same sort of demeanor as he showed with Oprah, shows he still doesn't get it.

Well there it is, how is he supposed to get it? I just think people reading his expressions are waiting for something that isn't there. Some people look like they're smirking all the time doesn't mean they are.

[Marz]

Well there it is, how is he supposed to get it? I just think people reading his expressions are waiting for something that isn't there. Some people look like they're smirking all the time doesn't mean they are.

Oh pleeeeeeeze.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by Vientomas
So, you are saying Betsy did not talk about the "hospital room" incident until subpoenaed?

that is my belief unless...again I'm mistaken.

I believe that's correct. Also, she was quiet until after Frankie came clean.

[FlashUNC]

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-do-not-feed-the-trolls-3.png

[Mr. Squirrel]

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-do-not-feed-the-trolls-3.png

they are nutty (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1278345&postcount=8) today.

mr. squirrel

[zennmotion]

I thought I tapped out too, ha,ha. Well I keep getting baited back, actually I did tap out yesterday but I reentered it today and I suppose it was my fault for being making the discussion offtopic, at this point why start another thread?

it's CNN in general.
It could be guy on there with a gripe as well as a lady.
frustrating that I have this sexist label thrust on me.
Oh well here I am with my limited knowledge not quite making myself clear
I think I express myself reasonably well but I have no doubt I am not being quite clear
So if I even tried to have this discussion in person I would have to go to a local bike shop and prey upon a lending ear, they could probably care less too.

Dude, you're rambling like an old time filibuster, only less entertaining. I hope your local bike shop guys can provide you with an audience, just don't go in on a Saturday. Start a blog or something for an outlet, this is a public space.

[malcolm]

I'm not saying it was a pay-off, and I'm not saying it wasn't....but didn't LA donate a fairly large sum of $$ to the medical center there? It may have just been a thank you for his treatment, but it does also seems to follow his M.O. of "donating"/attempting to "donate" when things smell funny (UCI, USADA, etc...).






William

I don't disagree. I suspect like all things the truth is in the middle or between maybe not middle. With all I do know I see no reason to doubt Betsy's veracity, but I would like to know the whole story. Also payment to a facility really does not impact the physician except maybe to insure he has a place to work unless it went directly or indirectly into his grant fund if he was a researcher. Physicians are usually either contracted with or employees of the hospital so donations other than ensuring viability of the hospital or getting new gadgets don't directly impact them. I wonder if it could be as simple as someone up the hierarchy just denied it and the actual doctors were never questioned. You would think it would appear in the medical record. Most of my specialist friends are quite anal about putting everything in the record.

Like JFK we'll never know. As far as humans go my experience is they will lie to the bitter end if it serves a purpose, saves them from something distasteful or in some way is beneficial. In Lance's case protecting the image he and others built up, the money and power. Maybe not all but many would act in the same manner and only give up when there was no other choice. For Betsy's story to be a lie to me makes no sense, what did she gain except torment and hardship? She had many chances to just drop it and walk away and in her case that would have been easy it would have just been a footnote,, no one outside the cycling community and even most of them would have never known, but she stuck it out with the same story no matter what came her way. To me that is either a very stupid person or someone telling the truth and she doesn't appear particularly stupid.

[Charles M]

After reading Frankie's admission to years of doping, but then reading that he's saying that he only doped for one tour, I think he and Betsy well short of hero status...

He doped for years but cleaned up for the tour all but once???


Putting Frankie and Betsy's character up next to Lance is about the only way I see anyone thinking of them in a positive light versus simply less dark.

Stand alone, their story of righteousness would be laughable...


The same goes for the world news putting Tyler and Floyd back in the spotlight as would be crusaders.


I think less ill will should be put toward Betsy and Frankie, but that's it... They didn't volunteer their guilt to start with and or stand up voluntarily to start with...

Read Frankie's fed deposition and you'll read that Betsy let what they heard Lance say slip and got caught up in it and we're forced in to a choice... Frankie tried covering it long before admitting anything.

[malcolm]

After reading Frankie's admission to years of doping, but then reading that he's saying that he only doped for one tour, I think he and Betsy well short of hero status...

He doped for years but cleaned up for the tour all but once???


Putting Frankie and Betsy's character up next to Lance is about the only way I see anyone thinking of them in a positive light versus simply less dark.

Stand alone, their story of righteousness would be laughable...


The same goes for the world news putting Tyler and Floyd back in the spotlight as would be crusaders.


I think less ill will should be put toward Betsy and Frankie, but that's it... They didn't volunteer their guilt to start with and or stand up voluntarily to start with...

Read Frankie's fed deposition and you'll read that Betsy let what they heard Lance say slip and got caught up in it and we're forced in to a choice... Frankie tried covering it long before admitting anything.

Now that I didn't know. I didn't realize the depositions were public, not that I would take the time to read them. I don't think there are any heroes in this mess. In almost every case they only come clean when there is little choice to do otherwise. I will give credit to Betsy for sticking with her story whatever may have been its genesis.

I think I like Millar best in this whole mess. It seems he at least came clean quickly once caught and didn't wast time with stories and lies.

[Tony T]

I didn't realize the depositions were public, not that I would take the time to read them.

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org

[Tony T]

Just noticed the photo's in Frankie's affidavit. You can find out who the USADA redacted via Google images.

[BBB]

Again, it is amazing to see people's reactions.

Armstrong got caught with his pants down after years of denials, not to mention the bullying, intimidation etc etc. Please see the USADA report.

He has since made a confession of sorts and confirmed he was arrogant and a bully.

For all you out there who chose to ignore that the Emperor had no clothes, please try and stop the diversions. How a thread about a comment by Miguel Indurain ended up being a disection of the character of Betsy Andreau is beyond me. It was Greg LeMond doping in another thread and now Andreau. Armstrong doped. He lied. The bubble has been burst. Get over it.

[Charles M]

yes... yes...

One wrong make everyone else right...:banana:

[Black Dog]

For all you out there who chose to ignore that the Emperor had no clothes, please try and stop the diversions. How a thread about a comment by Miguel Indurain ended up being a disection of the character of Betsy Andreau is beyond me. It was Greg LeMond doping in another thread and now Andreau. Armstrong doped. He lied. The bubble has been burst. Get over it.

Since I started the thread, I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps big mig is some sort of grand puppet master and is diverting us from my OP.

[Pearsom]

Again, it is amazing to see people's reactions.

Armstrong got caught with his pants down after years of denials, not to mention the bullying, intimidation etc etc. Please see the USADA report.

He has since made a confession of sorts and confirmed he was arrogant and a bully.

For all you out there who chose to ignore that the Emperor had no clothes, please try and stop the diversions. How a thread about a comment by Miguel Indurain ended up being a disection of the character of Betsy Andreau is beyond me. It was Greg LeMond doping in another thread and now Andreau. Armstrong doped. He lied. The bubble has been burst. Get over it.

Must..
Control...
The...
Narrative

[54ny77]

wake me up when armtsrong's calculated scripts get completely played out...

http://www.tvgasm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-clockwork-orange.gif