Back to the future-side pull brakes!

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, a bicycle related thread...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/gallery/fretz-gallery-giant-propel-advanced-sl_271854

[ultraman6970]

Well yesterday finally was able to ride more than 2 hours and got behing of a racer in a cervelo whatever number is, the road aero one and darn... from behind the darn bike is like a sword... doubt will be able to afford that ever hehe

As for the posting, wonder how hard is to work out a broken spoke or any other failure in the road using those brake systems. In a pro race is not a problem because they have another bike in a car and stuff but a regular rider??? Snap a spoke and address the problem doesnt look like too much fun besides maybe just disconeect the cable, not even think if the spoke starts touching the stays. Thing that paid me attention yesterday aswell in a Scott cr1, bad wheels in that one and you can scratch a stay big time.

[oldpotatoe]

Well yesterday finally was able to ride more than 2 hours and got behing of a racer in a cervelo whatever number is, the road aero one and darn... from behind the darn bike is like a sword... doubt will be able to afford that ever hehe

As for the posting, wonder how hard is to work out a broken spoke or any other failure in the road using those brake systems. In a pro race is not a problem because they have another bike in a car and stuff but a regular rider??? Snap a spoke and address the problem doesnt look like too much fun besides maybe just disconeect the cable, not even think if the spoke starts touching the stays. Thing that paid me attention yesterday aswell in a Scott cr1, bad wheels in that one and you can scratch a stay big time.

Well, the BMC, Taylor Phinneys', I worked on, you could not access the brakes at all. Had to remove some plates to even see them.

[Chance]

Seems they finally got the mechanical advantage right for road use. Brake feel and modulation should be far better than mini-Vs.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6175-633x421.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Seems they finally got the mechanical advantage right for road use. Brake feel and modulation should be far better than mini-Vs.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6175-633x421.jpg

Donno..the ones on the BMC felt awful.

[Chance]

This is a better view of the rear showing tire-to-cable clearance. Easier to see road-like leverage close to normal dual-pivot calipers.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6178-280x421.jpg

[jr59]

I don't think I will ever find out how "super dupper" these brakes are!

Somehow, I don't see me loosing any TT by .000001 or so.

At my size, 6'4" and north of 250, areo is not a big factor!


I guess that would be another factor to add to the sales pitch. Weight, coast and now aero!

[Chance]

Donno..the ones on the BMC felt awful.

Were they the same as these TRP mini-mini v-brakes? Don't recall details but it seems they were different.

[Chance]

I don't think I will ever find out how "super dupper" these brakes are!

Somehow, I don't see me loosing any TT by .000001 or so.

At my size, 6'4" and north of 250, areo is not a big factor!


I guess that would be another factor to add to the sales pitch. Weight, coast and now aero!

My take is completely different. "If they work", they should be cheaper, lighter, and more reliable. Just look at how simple these are in design compared to a dual pivot caliper. In theory they should cost the same to make as other TRP mini-vs, which are cheaper than Shimano and Campy calipers.

[ultraman6970]

I have to agree, the point to me is how hard is for those things to deal with bad wheels in the road.

Personally i would have gone center pulled and run cable all the way to the back of the seatpost. They look cool in the pictures but doubt will have one of those bikes ever.

[oldpotatoe]

Were they the same as these TRP mini-mini v-brakes? Don't recall details but it seems they were different.

They were made for the frame, manufacture unknown. Thin, spindly, just didn't work well at all...but they were 'aero'.

[Gummee]

They were made for the frame, manufacture unknown. Thin, spindly, just didn't work well at all...but they were 'aero'.

Meh. All brakes do is slow you down!

M

[witcombusa]

Can't find a single thing about that "bike" I lke at all.

Perhaps this would be fitting on the downtube?

[54ny77]

somewhere in this photo is a bike. that's one skinny profile.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6197-280x421.jpg

[Chance]

They were made for the frame, manufacture unknown. Thin, spindly, just didn't work well at all...but they were 'aero'.

If my memory serves me right, were those not the ones that fit inside the fork legs? If so, it made me wonder how they could control twisting loads when brakes were applied hard. Brake arms looked thin and flexible.

These are made by TRP according to article, and should work at least as good as other mini-Vs which seem to work OK even on tandems. The main complaint with mini-Vs is usually that they have lots of power but not enough modulation. And that's simply because the brake arms are too long compared to where the brake pads mount, giving too much mechanical advantage for road use. This was discussed to death on this forum years ago.

Can't think of any reason why these won't work great as long as the mounting posts are stiff on fork and frame. There's not much to them to go wrong.

[Chance]

PS. -- For what it's worth, don't care about aero benefit at all. Just want to see this kind of brake become mainstream as option to calipers.

[phcollard]

I may be retarded by I have one question : why? :confused:

Double pivot calipers not good enough?

[FlashUNC]

Is that a Giant? I can't tell. They should look into more logos.

[Lewis Moon]

If my memory serves me right, were those not the ones that fit inside the fork legs? If so, it made me wonder how they could control twisting loads when brakes were applied hard. Brake arms looked thin and flexible.

These are made by TRP according to article, and should work at least as good as other mini-Vs which seem to work OK even on tandems. The main complaint with mini-Vs is usually that they have lots of power but not enough modulation. And that's simply because the brake arms are too long compared to where the brake pads mount, giving too much mechanical advantage for road use. This was discussed to death on this forum years ago.

Can't think of any reason why these won't work great as long as the mounting posts are stiff on fork and frame. There's not much to them to go wrong.

My present road bike is a LeMond Poprad with the TRP CX 8.4s. The brakes seem to be the single biggest part I cannot dial in. You have to be VERY careful. As much as I love the bike, the brakes may make me look into another frame.

[ctcyclistbob]

somewhere in this photo is a bike. that's one skinny profile.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6197-280x421.jpg

That's a really cool photo ...

[ericssonboi]

this could open up a lot of doors.. i wonder what the weight savings will be

[mcteague]

somewhere in this photo is a bike. that's one skinny profile.

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/01/NIK6197-280x421.jpg

Yeah, too bad you have to put a rider on it.

Tim

[54ny77]

In the 2026 Tour de France, bicycles will be self-actualized. No need for cyclists.

Yeah, too bad you have to put a rider on it.

Tim

[Chance]

My present road bike is a LeMond Poprad with the TRP CX 8.4s. The brakes seem to be the single biggest part I cannot dial in. You have to be VERY careful. As much as I love the bike, the brakes may make me look into another frame.

RPS beat this subject to death almost 10 years ago. His interest in scaled-down mini-Vs wasn’t due to aerodynamics but rather for packaging reasons. That and simplicity. Because of the weird arrangement of his bike not having traditional seatstays he tried different brakes for the rear wheel. To the best of my recollection he posted pictures of frames with rear disc mount, a caliper mounted under the bottom bracket, and at least one frame with modified mini-Vs to make them shorter and change braking leverage.

The 8.4 CX have 8.4 cm long brake arms (if memory serves me right) which means way too much leverage. This is particularly true if brake pads don’t happen to fall up all the way up on brake arms. And unfortunately they usually don’t on most stock bikes. Or customs for that matter. They’d have to be custom specified to make brakes work better. And even then 8.4 CM arms are too long.

If you look at the picture of these new brakes the pads appear to be at least ½ way up the arms. If you don’t have that (which you don’t) then there is no real comparison to make. Only time will tell if these will work, but that they won’t be the same as previous common mini-Vs is a certainty in my opinion.

[Chance]

I may be retarded by I have one question : why? :confused:

Double pivot calipers not good enough?

No, double pivot calipers work great. But that's not to say that something may not work better still. Or be cheaper or lighter without compromising performance. Personally don't know but can't rule them out just because they are different than what's been done for 20 years.

In some cases, like some newer tri bikes with small rear triangles, fitting a traditional caliper for rear wheel could be more difficult. Mounting brake under BBKT like in picture below is one option, but getting to pads for adjustments and so on is more difficult. These new tiny mini-Vs could just be another option to solve this problem without as many compromises, or any compromise at all. Don't know.

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Blue-Competition-Cycles-updates-AC1-Triad-aero-bicycles01.jpg

[fogrider]

I have to agree, the point to me is how hard is for those things to deal with bad wheels in the road.

Personally i would have gone center pulled and run cable all the way to the back of the seatpost. They look cool in the pictures but doubt will have one of those bikes ever.

wheels have come a long way in recent years. it use to be that I would snap a couple of spokes a year. So I go years without braking a spoke, but last year a rear rim cracks and spoke pulls through. I had a spoke wrench but I decided to call for a sag. I could have rode home if I took off the pads, but there were cracks throughout the rim. the rim was more than 12 years old and saw many hard miles. we have the best performance and most reliable wheels in history. while it's good to have adjustability with the brakes, brake design is not the issue with wheel durability.

[soulspinner]

They were made for the frame, manufacture unknown. Thin, spindly, just didn't work well at all...but they were 'aero'.

This. If it dont stop ya, well if Campy Deltas stopped ya, I would still be using them regardless of weight, but they sucked. They were the most elegant looking thing though...............:bike:

[oldpotatoe]

If my memory serves me right, were those not the ones that fit inside the fork legs? If so, it made me wonder how they could control twisting loads when brakes were applied hard. Brake arms looked thin and flexible.

These are made by TRP according to article, and should work at least as good as other mini-Vs which seem to work OK even on tandems. The main complaint with mini-Vs is usually that they have lots of power but not enough modulation. And that's simply because the brake arms are too long compared to where the brake pads mount, giving too much mechanical advantage for road use. This was discussed to death on this forum years ago.

Can't think of any reason why these won't work great as long as the mounting posts are stiff on fork and frame. There's not much to them to go wrong.

They do as do the rear..

My 'beef' is another propriatary 'gizmo' in a bike design. I know brakes don't really wear out but another unique to this frame, design.

With a unique mounting 'system' with MTB/cross type 'posts'. Along with increased stresses on the chainstay/seatstay/fork legs. Instead of the 'hole', where the stresses can be more easily dealt with. Doubt this type will become the norm on a standard road frame but I've been wrong before.

IMHO

[oldpotatoe]

This. If it dont stop ya, well if Campy Deltas stopped ya, I would still be using them regardless of weight, but they sucked. They were the most elegant looking thing though...............:bike:

I use Deltas every dry riding day..they work fine. They aren't DP brakes but they stop just fine.

These are as aero but didn't work as well.

[rice rocket]

The only problem I have with my Tektro mini-V's (8 cm arms) is lack of rim clearance. They are WAY TOO powerful, and TONS stiff.

Assuming they went to even shorter arms, this could work well, except it doesn't address the issue of pad wear, which is why dual pivots came around in the first place. I wonder what the solution is except to constantly adjust pads.

[Chance]

They do as do the rear..

My 'beef' is another propriatary 'gizmo' in a bike design. I know brakes don't really wear out but another unique to this frame, design.

With a unique mounting 'system' with MTB/cross type 'posts'. Along with increased stresses on the chainstay/seatstay/fork legs. Instead of the 'hole', where the stresses can be more easily dealt with. Doubt this type will become the norm on a standard road frame but I've been wrong before.

IMHO

Don't quite get your point.:confused:

Are these TRP brakes on this bike not essentially the same as mini-Vs like we've been using for years on many bikes? And without a lot of problems? They are shorter for sure, but that's to change braking leverage. And as far as stresses, making the brake arms shorter compared to MTB or Cross should reduce stresses on posts.

Calipers do transfer loads to a "hole", but how does that reduce stresses? Each caliper arm with a reach of 39 to 49 mm has bending and twisting stresses carried within the caliper itself. On V-brakes of all types these stresses are shared with the frame differently, but it doesn't have to be greater overall.

It's easy to see that since road bikes are made to "lighter" weight standards that they may be weaker overall, but if frames and forks designed for mini-Vs (and cantis for that matter) can handle the stresses then why not these. As discussed a long time ago, when mini-Vs are made shorter, the cable itself takes on a greater percentage of the brake clamping force, leaving less force to spread the posts apart.

Would be interesting to know if these are using posts compatible with MTB/Cross. Or are they unique? And also if the "reach" dimensions from posts to rim braking is approximately the same. Width would likely be an issue, but other than that it would be nice to be able to try these on a CX or other bike when running smaller tires. If they fit.

[Chance]

Assuming they went to even shorter arms, this could work well, except it doesn't address the issue of pad wear, which is why dual pivots came around in the first place. I wonder what the solution is except to constantly adjust pads.

Can you elaborate on this? :confused:

[oldpotatoe]

Don't quite get your point.:confused:

Are these TRP brakes on this bike not essentially the same as mini-Vs like we've been using for years on many bikes? And without a lot of problems? They are shorter for sure, but that's to change braking leverage. And as far as stresses, making the brake arms shorter compared to MTB or Cross should reduce stresses on posts.

Calipers do transfer loads to a "hole", but how does that reduce stresses? Each caliper arm with a reach of 39 to 49 mm has bending and twisting stresses carried within the caliper itself. On V-brakes of all types these stresses are shared with the frame differently, but it doesn't have to be greater overall.

It's easy to see that since road bikes are made to "lighter" weight standards that they may be weaker overall, but if frames and forks designed for mini-Vs (and cantis for that matter) can handle the stresses then why not these. As discussed a long time ago, when mini-Vs are made shorter, the cable itself takes on a greater percentage of the brake clamping force, leaving less force to spread the posts apart.

Would be interesting to know if these are using posts compatible with MTB/Cross. Or are they unique? And also if the "reach" dimensions from posts to rim braking is approximately the same. Width would likely be an issue, but other than that it would be nice to be able to try these on a CX or other bike when running smaller tires. If they fit.

How many road frames that exist today or tomorrow could use these brakes(even if you could buy them)? Is my point.

I don't know if the posts are in the same place as MTB/cross frames and forks.

Considering where a caliper is mounted, at the junction of 3 tubes on a carbon frame and at the top of a fork crown rather than in the middle of the stays or fork legs. Can they be made strong enough? Sure but the legs need to be made to handle the braking forces in the middle-esque part of the leg/stay.

PLUS making a frame/fork with posts rather than just a hole, is more expensive.

If ya like them, that's great but like a lot of things 'bike', it is an answer to a not asked question, with regards to a DP brake, which are cheap, simple, very effective and very available.

The 2 reviews I have seen, 30% of the coverage was about the brakes..another 'aero' thread on a road bike, as if it makes a huge difference, which it doesn't IMHO.

[AgilisMerlin]

they look incorporated but are they hard to work on, dunno

they remind me of old modolo carbon bits, just like the pics of the frame looks like it has hair strands, in the layup.

i like metal. just some thoughts

[Lewis Moon]

The only problem I have with my Tektro mini-V's (8 cm arms) is lack of rim clearance. They are WAY TOO powerful, and TONS stiff.

Assuming they went to even shorter arms, this could work well, except it doesn't address the issue of pad wear, which is why dual pivots came around in the first place. I wonder what the solution is except to constantly adjust pads.

This is my issue with the TRPs. Once the pad hits the rim there is almost an exponential increase in power with each mm the lever is pulled. Hard to control in some (panic, etc) situations. The shorter arms should take care of this, and if my intuition is correct, it should take care of the spongy,clearance/pad wear issues. These could be simple and light.

[Chance]

Considering where a caliper is mounted, at the junction of 3 tubes on a carbon frame and at the top of a fork crown rather than in the middle of the stays or fork legs. Can they be made strong enough? Sure but the legs need to be made to handle the braking forces in the middle-esque part of the leg/stay.

PLUS making a frame/fork with posts rather than just a hole, is more expensive.

If ya like them, that's great but like a lot of things 'bike', it is an answer to a not asked question, with regards to a DP brake, which are cheap, simple, very effective and very available.



Okay, think your point is clearer now. Perhaps incremental costs are less important to me than they should be. Having said that, my DP calipers will remain in service as long as my frames last.

It seems to me that carbon forks with posts are already quite common and their cost is "about" the same. It doesn't take more than a few seconds to find carbon forks with posts for CX, tandems, and even MTB.

The question about what's next is "always" asked by some. And we should be grateful for that. You seem to think that dual pivot calipers should be the standard, but before DP calipers we had single-pivot calipers, and many riders probably thought the same. They probably asked why we needed DP then. Some now are pushing disc brakes for road use. Maybe that will be a better answer in the long run, although given a choice, the mini-Vs would suit me better than discs for road use.

To me change is usually fun to contemplate, try, and sometimes adopt. Ocassionally not so much. If in the business like you are, that would probably not be the case. Constant change would be a PITA.