Salsa skewers & rear wheel slippage

[dekindy]

Rear wheel was slipping before restoration so I did some investigating and found that the cam follower on the Salsa flip-off skewer was a wear item. After the restoration I replaced the cam follower and the rear wheel still slipped slightly; slippage was so slight that it was hard to see visually but could hear the two lowest gears grinding a little.

These skewers get great reviews so am wondering if I just need to tighten the skewer more. I did not tighten down as tight as I had tried previously before the restoration because I did not want to exert enough pressure with compressing the cam follower. But maybe that it is supposed to be compressed slightly?

Other than that the next step would be to try Shimano skewers from my other wheels. This is the Serotta Colorado frame that I just had restored.

[Pars]

http://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Maybe this?

[Mr Cabletwitch]

Try the shimano skewers, I had a set of Salsa skewers on a SS MTB that I ran gears on and just ran the wheel slammed forward and just the braking force would cause the wheel to slip back. I used to ride a Serotta Club Special and had slipping issues until I put a internal cam skewer (campy) and and had no issues after.

[dekindy]

http://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Maybe this?

THANKS VERY MUCH. Use and recommend SB all the time but had not thought of the obvious for reviewing this. Totally ignorant of the fact that the washer had pressure points that had the possibility of not aligning properly. The $20 that I got for my birthday will go towards replacing these.

[Pars]

Hope that helps. I think Sheldon's point was that the newer exposed cam skewers do not exert as much pressure as the vintage skewers did:

In addition, the exposed cam is a larger diameter, (typically 16 mm vs 7 mm for an enclosed cam) so the friction is acting on a longer moment arm (the radius of the cam.)

The result is that the exposed cam type provides very much less clamping force for a given amount of hand force on the lever.

[dekindy]

Read the Salsa instructions and the only application they do not recommend their skewerss is a fixed gear bike with horizontal dropouts. Also Salsa recommends extensive lubrication of the threads, skewer, cam, and pivot points.

I called the LBS about this and they recommended lubricating the cam with Phil Wood grease and the pivot point with light oil. Thought that doing this and tighter pressure would hold the wheel securely. Guess I will give it one more try and then order Shimano skewers if the problem is not solved.

[christian]

External cam skewers are cheaper to manufacture.

AND SUCK SO BAD!!!

[jds108]

To re-state what Sheldon says....

If you have vertical dropouts, use whatever.

If you have horizontal, then use internal cam that also has steel teeth on the adjustment nut (that bite against the frame's dropout surface.) Shimano Dura Ace fits this description, as do lower level current-gen Campy skewers. The one higher level current Campy skewer that I have does not have the steel serrated piece, the adjustment nut is 100% aluminum. (This set came with a Racing 1 wheelset.)

[thwart]

The one higher level current Campy skewer that I have does not have the steel serrated piece, the adjustment nut is 100% aluminum. (This set came with a Racing 1 wheelset.)Sometimes pursuing lighter weight is not worth what you give up... but in Campy's defense, they probably assumed this wheelset would seldom be used on a frame with horizontal dropouts.

[dekindy]

For the record I am totally against trying to save weight. I weigh 200 pounds and focus on durability. These skewers happen to come with a wheelset that I purchased. I used them without incident on a Fierte and Legend but started having problems when using them on the Colorado.

[dekindy]

Had a nice conversation with a knowledgeable representative at Shimano. He agreed that their internal cam design is the best. He also had experience with Salsa and echoed my LBS recommendation that greasing the cam is the key to good performance and oiling the lever. Felt that would solve my problem. Confirmed that 105 nuts are plastic, Ultegra is aluminum and of course Dura Ace is steel.

[dekindy]

I greased an oiled the Salsa skewers as instructed and really tightened it down and wheel still slipped. Substituted Dura Ace skewer and wheel slipped.

I have another call into the frame builder/painter to get his further thoughts and have a good LBS I can take it too.

This is discouraging. Any other thoughts. I have never had this problem before.:eek:

[christian]

Chromed drop-out faces?

A Shimano skewer will hold just fine. If it doesn't, you're not using enough pressure to close it.

[Ralph]

You can probably just find a nice chromed bolt with threads on both side, with some chrome nuts and washers.....nice looking stuff......and lock her down. Like a track bike. That's how folks used to secure the wheels.

[dekindy]

Chromed drop-out faces?

A Shimano skewer will hold just fine. If it doesn't, you're not using enough pressure to close it.

No chrome.

I tightened it so much that I could not close it and then backed off until I could force it closed.

I have never had to put even close to that much force before and have never a problem on any other bike. Really got me puzzled.

[Dave Wages]

From my experience, once a wheel slips in a dropout, it creates a bit of a "groove", thus making future slippage much more likely. I'm not sure what type of dropouts you're dealing with, but when this happened on Waterford's with the semi-horizontal Henry James dropouts I'd usually try to carefully grind down the dropout's surface so that the axle would have a "fresh" area to clamp onto. I did this with a pneumatic dynafile, but I imagine it could be done carefully with a file.

Some pics of the driveside dropout, specifically the inside face might be helpful.

Dave

[dekindy]

From my experience, once a wheel slips in a dropout, it creates a bit of a "groove", thus making future slippage much more likely. I'm not sure what type of dropouts you're dealing with, but when this happened on Waterford's with the semi-horizontal Henry James dropouts I'd usually try to carefully grind down the dropout's surface so that the axle would have a "fresh" area to clamp onto. I did this with a pneumatic dynafile, but I imagine it could be done carefully with a file.

Some pics of the driveside dropout, specifically the inside face might be helpful.

Dave

Thanks for the expert opinion. Lots of pictures here with a closeup of the pre-restoration rear dropout and some pictures of dropouts after priming but no final. I can take a digital picture of the finished dropout if you would like.
https://plus.google.com/photos/100087216284951537311/albums?banner=pwa&gpsrc=pwrd1#photos/100087216284951537311/albums/5813690946150569057

[Peter P.]

You don't mention what brand hub you're using. If the locknut faces aren't serrated, or the serrations are flattened, it could be the source of your problem. Wouldn't hurt, for experimental purposes, to try a wheel with a different hub.

[dekindy]

You don't mention what brand hub you're using. If the locknut faces aren't serrated, or the serrations are flattened, it could be the source of your problem. Wouldn't hurt, for experimental purposes, to try a wheel with a different hub.

white industries H2 hubs.

I ran out of time today or I would have installed Shimano 7850sl's from my other bike. Last thing I know to try. Have had these wheels on another frame, a Fierte, for certain without a problem; can't remember if I have ever had them on the Legend but could try them there as a second test.

[Dave Wages]

I looked at the pictures of your frame, and I have to say, those are some very unusual rear dropouts, I've never seen another Colorado with such forward facing dropouts unless it was a set of old Campy 1010's. It looks from the serial number that this was a custom build, so maybe a special set of dropouts for a racer? Seeing this, I'd say that those dropouts aren't helping your case, and I also saw you mention the White H2 rear hub. Coincidentally, I have both a brand new and a very well used White Industries hub in the shop right now, and while the new hub has some pretty toothy knurling on the end cap, on the older used hub those are almost completely worn down, since the axle is aluminum. I think if you try another wheel with a more aggressively knurled end cap along with a good quick release it "should" solve your problem.

That said, there aren't any good photos of the inside face of that drive side dropout, so it's hard to say if that's been deformed significantly.

Hope this helps...
Dave

[GRAVELBIKE]

Your best bet is to replace the Salsa skewers with an internal-cam skewer such as those offered by Shimano or Campy. The internal-cam skewers will hold better with less (closing) force, especially if your frame has horz dropouts and/or your hubs don't have serrated locknuts/ends.

[dekindy]

Your best bet is to replace the Salsa skewers with an internal-cam skewer such as those offered by Shimano or Campy. The internal-cam skewers will hold better with less (closing) force, especially if your frame has horz dropouts and/or your hubs don't have serrated locknuts/ends.

Already tried Dura Ace skewers and that did not work.

[dekindy]

I looked at the pictures of your frame, and I have to say, those are some very unusual rear dropouts, I've never seen another Colorado with such forward facing dropouts unless it was a set of old Campy 1010's. It looks from the serial number that this was a custom build, so maybe a special set of dropouts for a racer? Seeing this, I'd say that those dropouts aren't helping your case, and I also saw you mention the White H2 rear hub. Coincidentally, I have both a brand new and a very well used White Industries hub in the shop right now, and while the new hub has some pretty toothy knurling on the end cap, on the older used hub those are almost completely worn down, since the axle is aluminum. I think if you try another wheel with a more aggressively knurled end cap along with a good quick release it "should" solve your problem.

That said, there aren't any good photos of the inside face of that drive side dropout, so it's hard to say if that's been deformed significantly.

Hope this helps...
Dave

I purchased as a complete bike and it came with Campy 8-speed but do not recall the skewers. Hub was a DT Swiss Hugi if I remember correctly.

Is the hub end cap replaceable that if worn I can take to my LBS and get it fixed? Do I need the dropouts replaced?

I will try the Shimano Dura Ace wheels as soon as I can.

[GRAVELBIKE]

Already tried Dura Ace skewers and that did not work.

Were they the ones with the alloy ends? If so, see if you can find some with steel ends.

[Dave Wages]

I purchased as a complete bike and it came with Campy 8-speed but do not recall the skewers. Hub was a DT Swiss Hugi if I remember correctly.

Is the hub end cap replaceable that if worn I can take to my LBS and get it fixed? Do I need the dropouts replaced?

I will try the Shimano Dura Ace wheels as soon as I can.

White Industries rear hub instructions (http://www.whiteind.com/techcorner/rearhubinstructions.html)

I looked at this briefly and I'm not sure if you can easily replace that knurled part on the end of the H2 hub, but you can read it for yourself. Otherwise, give them a call, they've always been very helpful.

I doubt that you'd need to go as extreme as replacing the dropouts on this bike, but you may need to get a specific wheel that has more aggressive knurling on the end of the axle along with a burly quick release to solve this issue. This bike may simply not be compatible with every wheel you have.

Dave

[GRAVELBIKE]

Have you had the dropouts' alignment checked?

Also, could the ends of the axle/caps be sticking out too far?

[dekindy]

Have you had the dropouts' alignment checked?

Also, could the ends of the axle/caps be sticking out too far?

Dropout aligned has been checked by an expert and is alright.

Not sure about the axle caps; need to get my LBS to look at that as I am not knowledgeable.

[dekindy]

I don't know if these pictures are clear enough, but best I could do tonight. I thought they looked better on the camera than they look here.

[dekindy]

White Industries rear hub instructions (http://www.whiteind.com/techcorner/rearhubinstructions.html)

I looked at this briefly and I'm not sure if you can easily replace that knurled part on the end of the H2 hub, but you can read it for yourself. Otherwise, give them a call, they've always been very helpful.

I doubt that you'd need to go as extreme as replacing the dropouts on this bike, but you may need to get a specific wheel that has more aggressive knurling on the end of the axle along with a burly quick release to solve this issue. This bike may simply not be compatible with every wheel you have.

Dave

Wow, I don't know if you can tell from the pictures that I posted, but my axle ends appear smooth compare to the knurled ones in the picture. I am betting that is the problem. I had no idea that would be a wear item.

Is that likely the problem? I guess I can try the Shimano wheels and if they don't slip with the Dura Ace skewer, substitute the Salsa to isolate the wheel and skewer variable?

Had no idea that was a wear item. Could it have been caused by the Salsa skewer design? Skewer not tight enough?

[Peter P.]

Try using the Macro setting on your camera so the pictures will be in focus.

If the axle end caps are aluminum then even if they're knurled, the knurling isn't going to bite into the steel dropout face very well, nor last long.

The only reason I can see you'd have to rework the dropout faces is if the hub wants to take a position in the dropout dictated by the knurled face of the axle end cap and the marks on the dropout face.

Clearly, the next troubleshooting step is to try another wheel, hopefully one whose axle end cap is knurled steel.

[dekindy]

Are Shimano 7850sl end caps steel or aluminum?

If I need steel end caps, are those available or am I stuck with the White Industries aluminum?

[Dave Wages]

As Peter mentioned, the knurling on those aluminum White end caps isn't going to stay sharp for very long considering you're taking it in and out and clamping it into a steel frame. Aluminum vs. Steel, steel is going to wear out the aluminum in this type of application. I don't know if those DA wheels have steel axle nuts, but I think for this particular bike, that's almost a necessity. Aluminum axles are no problem for the vast majority of bikes with vertical dropouts, there's no where for the wheel to slip, but the dropouts and design of your bike just aren't going to allow you to use just any wheel, unfortunately.

Dave

[dekindy]

Tried the Shimano 7850SL wheel. Installing it was a very tight fit. I mean I had to pull very hard to get the wheel to seat properly in the dropout. This was after loosening the quick release considerably and I had just removed the wheel from my Legend. Cranked the quick release so tight that I had to brace my foot against the wheel to open it. Wheel still slipped. Reinstalling the wheel with the WI H2 hub and it slipped in easily.

Is there such a thing as a Campy only hub compatible dropout? I mean really, this is ridiculous. I am going to consult with my LBS and see what they can come up with. Any other thoughts?

[Dave Wages]

I'm guessing that there is paint buildup in the dropout slot, that may be why you're having trouble getting the DA wheels installed, but it's hard to tell from the photos you posted.

Honestly, those are some of the worst photos I've ever seen! ;)

I'd try some emery cloth to get the paint out of both the slot and the dropout face, then at least your axle will be able "bite" into the dropout, if there's paint in between it ends up acting like a lubricant for slippage.

Dave

[dekindy]

I'm guessing that there is paint buildup in the dropout slot, that may be why you're having trouble getting the DA wheels installed, but it's hard to tell from the photos you posted.

Honestly, those are some of the worst photos I've ever seen! ;)

I'd try some emery cloth to get the paint out of both the slot and the dropout face, then at least your axle will be able "bite" into the dropout, if there's paint in between it ends up acting like a lubricant for slippage.

Dave

Yeah, I apologize again for the photos, best I could do. Bike is now in the hands of my favorite LBS mechanic. He has seen some new bikes with wheel slippage that were warrantied due to design and some fixes that included building up some material on the dropout. I will let you know what I find out.

Contacted White Industries and the lady that answered was extremely well versed. Their end caps are definitely aluminum, steel not availbable and did not know where we could source them. Her first question was whether it was about the dropout design. She suggested knurled washers as a possible fix. Spoke with my LBS about that and he said that was a last resort as there are more proper fixes.

[ultraman6970]

IMO you have to put something old like a shimano 600 or a 105 sc one, never seen a broken one of these ever. Seen campagnolo ones trashed for tons tho.

[dekindy]

LBS says that different dropouts are the only solution:

1. Angle of dropout is a problem
2. Dropout causes chainstay to seatstay angle to be weird-thinks somebody make a mistake or was just not watching closely enough when they installed this dropout-wondered if frame had been repaired
3. Dropouts are worn from wheel slippage
4. Dropout material may be too hard for skewer to bite into

I am going back to my buddy, Craig Ryan at Foresta Frames, and see what he suggests.

[cachagua]

Have you considered getting a good machinist to mill the hub's end caps so you can put suitably knurled axle nuts on them?

They wouldn't have to thread on, like with a conventional axle; a snug press-fit would keep them from falling off, and that's all that's needed. There's probably plenty of meat to put on rears, although if not you could try fronts.

How hard are the caps to remove from the hub? I'd damn near try it in a drill press. Super-high tolerances wouldn't be necessary--

"Different dropouts are the only solution". . . nothing is EVER the ONLY solution!

[dekindy]

Have you considered getting a good machinist to mill the hub's end caps so you can put suitably knurled axle nuts on them?

They wouldn't have to thread on, like with a conventional axle; a snug press-fit would keep them from falling off, and that's all that's needed. There's probably plenty of meat to put on rears, although if not you could try fronts.

How hard are the caps to remove from the hub? I'd damn near try it in a drill press. Super-high tolerances wouldn't be necessary--

"Different dropouts are the only solution". . . nothing is EVER the ONLY solution!

I could spend a lot more money trying things that might work. No way.

[cachagua]

Okay, new dropouts would very probably work. Can't argue with that.

[dekindy]

Thought to consult with Dave Kirk and he was very helpful and I am very appreciative. Craig and I are going to measure the dropouts and determine if they are worn and can be filed back to perpendicular. Will have to wait until a warm day and that we can get together so we can test as we modify. Hoping this will be a fix.

[dekindy]

Finally decided to get with Craig Ryan and see if this problem could be solved.

Removed all paint from the dropouts and determined that difference in paint thickness was the variability in measuring the dropouts. Dropouts are square and uniform and there appears to be no reason why the wheels slip. So it appears that worn axle ends and lack of steel axle end may be the culprits.

Did remember Dave Kirk's observation that they might be slightly worn and wanting to settle into that one spot so Craig used an electric sander to remove all wear marks and get to a smooth surface.

This appeared to work as a Fulcrum Zero did not slip under the same test conditions used previously. Not sure if this will work long term or for how long with aluminum axle ends but now hopeful there is a solution.

So, requested information on whether White Industries can make me an axle with steel ends. They still manufacture fixed gear axles with steel ends so maybe they will do it. Wondering if those axles would fit the H2 hub?

Otherwise, going to have to get you guys to explain in detail how to modify the axles and get a steel axle end installed.

[giverdada]

but, i had a similar problem in my horizontal-forward-facing dropouts on a really cheap steel norco mountain bike frame that was singlespeeded to work as a winter commuter. i hit a bump once and the wheel slipped back enough to make pedalling impossible. not knowing the cause, i ended up replacing the BB before figuring out that slippage was the original problem. long story.

anyway, in a long verbal exchange with a very knowledgeable shop local with startlingly blue eyes, we came to the conclusion that there was just not enough dropout material to provide enough leverage to the force of the quick release into the axle ends, so it was 'tight', but only tightened against itself. even with a completely cranked quick release (or allen-key skewer), the wheel would slip. the dropouts were too thin. stamped instead of forged, so they were at least 1/3 thinner than a forged dropout, and did not allow enough thickness for the skewer to bite or push against in order to secure against slippage.

solution: 10¢ toothed washers that slipped onto the axle, on either side of the dropout, serving to 'thicken'/add thickness to the dropout, and, being toothed, add to purchase for bite into the frame and against the hub. totally worked. was finicky to get a washer or two (i bought several) on either side of each dropout while also getting the damn wheel into the frame, but, once set, was rock solid. took bumps, sprints out of trackstands, anything, and didn't move a millimeter.

this may be completely off base from your very extensively posited problem, but i'd try 50 cents worth of toothed washers before getting dropouts replaced. and, it sucked for me until it was figured out, so maybe my learning can help your thing. sounds like a wicked frame regardless.

n.

[dekindy]

but, i had a similar problem in my horizontal-forward-facing dropouts on a really cheap steel norco mountain bike frame that was singlespeeded to work as a winter commuter. i hit a bump once and the wheel slipped back enough to make pedalling impossible. not knowing the cause, i ended up replacing the BB before figuring out that slippage was the original problem. long story.

anyway, in a long verbal exchange with a very knowledgeable shop local with startlingly blue eyes, we came to the conclusion that there was just not enough dropout material to provide enough leverage to the force of the quick release into the axle ends, so it was 'tight', but only tightened against itself. even with a completely cranked quick release (or allen-key skewer), the wheel would slip. the dropouts were too thin. stamped instead of forged, so they were at least 1/3 thinner than a forged dropout, and did not allow enough thickness for the skewer to bite or push against in order to secure against slippage.

solution: 10¢ toothed washers that slipped onto the axle, on either side of the dropout, serving to 'thicken'/add thickness to the dropout, and, being toothed, add to purchase for bite into the frame and against the hub. totally worked. was finicky to get a washer or two (i bought several) on either side of each dropout while also getting the damn wheel into the frame, but, once set, was rock solid. took bumps, sprints out of trackstands, anything, and didn't move a millimeter.

this may be completely off base from your very extensively posited problem, but i'd try 50 cents worth of toothed washers before getting dropouts replaced. and, it sucked for me until it was figured out, so maybe my learning can help your thing. sounds like a wicked frame regardless.

n.

Thanks much for the comments. Measured a new dropout and thickness is about the same as mine. Hopefully a new axle end that has no wear and hopefully can get one made of steel, should do the trick now that we have tested a Fulcrum Zero did not slip. Also going to install Dura Ace skewers.