This is why I can never Respect Lance...

[bikerboy337]

Please scroll to 2:19 in this video and watch for approximately 1 minute...

There is not much I can say, I think Lance says it all himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFkUv7FeJk

:bike::bike::bike:

[Keith A]

Thanks for posting this. For me, this shows why I was initially reluctant to believe that he had doped. He fully understood the importance of being a clean athlete and how important this was to his foundation and fans...so how could he risk loosing all this? Yet, he lied to us all :no:

[rugbysecondrow]

Understood, but know that you not forgiving Lance says more about you than it does about Lance.

[tuxbailey]

Well, that clip is going to persist in the cyberspace forever.

I just how someone in his position can keep a straight face and continue to in denial after making that kind of statement.

here is a direct link to 02:19 to save some scrolling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFkUv7FeJk#t=2m19s

[Brucer]

Can't watch more than five minutes of this without a feeling of utter disgust and sadness.

[Brucer]

But thanks for posting it.

[Climb01742]

Understood, but know that you not forgiving Lance says more about you than it does about Lance.

perhaps 'forgive' is not exactly the right word. in a spiritual sense, yes, we should have compassion for all creatures. but there are other, ethical appraisals that are, i think, fair game here. and lance fails every ethical test. and he failed to have compassion for the lives and careers he destroyed. and that is, indeed, about him, not us.

[Dave B]

I agree the things Lance did or does seem terrible to us. Us who have never been successful in a public idolizing manner. We judge this man by a set of ethics and morals that seem obvious and just.

What if we were to enter into a business that had rules and codes that were the shades of grey we don't agree with.

The mafia seems a suitable analogy. Not all lives are lead with a clear head and heart. It seems for decades that in professional sports doing what it takes to win or the methods one must live by are not what we the general public deem fair.

Lance is an ass, he treated people like dirt. He had a direct affect on others lives in a negative way. He lied and lied and lied.

He also has done a lot of good for others that isn't always publicized. Does he infuriate people with his despicable actions, you bet. However, we (cyclists, fans, personal investors in who "Lance" is/was) are also to blame for wanting him to be perfect.

I imagine he isn't all one of the things we like to think he is. he isn't all bad or all good. He is human and with that he did not make the best use of the responsibility he was given. He cheated and made millions. I do not know what that is like, but I bet many of my high morals would go through a shift or pause if given the same circumstances. Many of us would. A control freak will do anything he can to remain in control. My guess is there are some shrinks who would be able to pin a type of specific personality disorder to people like him. not making excuses, but judge the entire man.

Anyway, just trying to give another point.

[jimcav]

Please scroll to 2:19 in this video and watch for approximately 1 minute...

There is not much I can say, I think Lance says it all himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFkUv7FeJk

:bike::bike::bike:

when i saw that (not today, but the 1st time), it showed the rationalization at work--I do believe he is/was passionate about cycling and his work for cancer victims, and of course cycling is what allowed him to do what he did with livestrong and have the tyep of status he enjoyed (with the non-cycling fan). Made perfect sense to me--I felt he was lying, but I came away feeling he absolutley believed he should. I think he and his inner circle thought he'd get away with it all. I am very very curious to learn/hear post-Oprah what legal maneuvers happened/are happening to protect him. I do hope there is something behind the scenes to expose those even higher in the organiazational/ownership side of cycling, but it is just a hope.

[jpw]

to forgive and to forget are different things, but.....

....i could forgive him if he spends much of the rest of his active life promoting clean cycling and helped to expose the dirty secrets of the bureaucracy of world cycling and made things right for the people he personally wronged.

[Dave B]

when i saw that (not today, but the 1st time), it showed the rationalization at work--I do believe he is/was passionate about cycling and his work for cancer victims, and of course cycling is what allowed him to do what he did with livestrong and have the tyep of status he enjoyed (with the non-cycling fan). Made perfect sense to me--I felt he was lying, but I came away feeling he absolutley believed he should. I think he and his inner circle thought he'd get away with it all. I am very very curious to learn/hear post-Oprah what legal maneuvers happened/are happening to protect him. I do hope there is something behind the scenes to expose those even higher in the organiazational/ownership side of cycling, but it is just a hope.

I like this. I would like to know what happens after the big announcement.

[Ahneida Ride]

Why do we place people on a pedestal in the first place?

[bikerboy337]

I agree... fogive is not the right word... and yes, he's done nothing to me personally, but the way he has treated people these past 15 years has been disgusting...yes, we've all made mistakes, but I'd like to think (and hope) that none of us have destroyed peoples lives over our own lie and used our charity as a shield from any harm...its the extent of his lies and his behavior that I find abhorrent... I could really care less that he doped, they all did, but he ruined people along the way, and used Livestrong as a shield... that, i find unacceptable...




perhaps 'forgive' is not exactly the right word. in a spiritual sense, yes, we should have compassion for all creatures. but there are other, ethical appraisals that are, i think, fair game here. and lance fails every ethical test. and he failed to have compassion for the lives and careers he destroyed. and that is, indeed, about him, not us.

[Vientomas]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/a-decade-of-denials-for-armstrong_271500

AUSTIN, Texas (AFP) — Lance Armstrong spent more than a decade vehemently denying accusations of doping, his reported confession on Monday coming only after the testimony of others had forever tainted his cycling legacy.

Below is a non-exhaustive list Armstrong’s doping denials since 2001:

2001
“This is my body and I can do whatever I want to it. I can push it, and study it, tweak it, listen to it. Everybody wants to know what I’m on. What am I on? I’m on my bike, busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?”
—Advertisement for Nike

July 2005
“I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics. I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I’ll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets – this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. Vive Le Tour.”
—After Armstrong’s seventh and final Tour de France victory

August 2005
“I have never doped, I can say it again, but I have said it for seven years — it doesn’t help.”
—On CNN’s “Larry King Live” after French newspaper L’Equipe reported tests on urine samples taken from Armstrong during the 1999 Tour and frozen were positive for blood-boosting erythropoietin (EPO)

2005
“… the faith of all the cancer survivors and almost everything I do off of the bike would go away too. Don’t think for a second I don’t understand that.”
—In testimony under oath during legal proceedings involving SCA Promotions over a bonus payment for a Tour de France victory

2007
“I was on my deathbed. You think I’m going to come back into a sport and say, ‘OK, OK doctor give me everything you got, I just want to go fast?’ No way. I would never do that.”
—Speaking of his life in an interview in Aspen with Bob Schieffer, a respected journalist with CBS and a cancer survivor

July 2009
“The critics say I’m arrogant. A doper. Washed up. A fraud. That I couldn’t let it go. They can say whatever they want. I’m not back on my bike for them.”
—Nike “Driven” commercial in the build-up to Armstrong’s first Tour de France since his comeback from retirement, showing Armstrong training in a Livestrong jersey juxtaposed with images of cancer patients

May 2010
“It’s our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility. Floyd lost his credibility a long time ago.”
—Response to Floyd Landis’ accusations of systematic doping in the U.S. Postal cycling team

June 13, 2012
“I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one.”
—Responding in a statement when the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency announced its charges against him

August 23, 2012
“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999.”
—Announcing he would not fight USADA’s charges and pursue a hearing to prove his innocence

[David Kirk]

Why do we place people on a pedestal in the first place?

This is a huge and relevant big-picture question and I will say right up front I don't have the answer to it.

But I have my gut feeling on it - I think 'we' average folks need heros we can look up to and aspire to be more like. We crave that guidance and direction and these 'heros' can be that shining light on the hill that help us to look forward and keep moving toward the light. It feels like human nature.

If this is true (big IF) the problem as I see it is that in many cases the hero didn't necessarily earn the admiration but instead had it thrust upon them by a needy public. In other words it feels to me like we have some ideal of what a hero is and when someone comes along and it looks like he might fit into the hero suit we hang the label on him and start the admiration. And then because we are feeling so good about having this hero we overlook their obvious faults and indiscretions and go into sort of a denial.

If feels to me like the public at large does this with everyone from athletes to politicians to actors/celebrities and it's often not based on merit or reason but on our need to admire someone.

But who knows - I'm a blue collar guy making metal stuff and not educated in this area.

Good question though.


dave

[Vientomas]

OK I'll be honest. I cannot forgive Lance. The reason? I bet my wife that he would confess by Christmas 2012. I lost the bet. Damn you Lance.

[Joachim]

I can understands the OP's perspective, but to me Lance does not "need" forgiveness. He, IMO, needs nothing, since he is nothing in my eyes. He is not part of my family, does not influence my daily life (except to take up Paceline bandwith) and I do not lose any sleep over Lance and his daily actions. I can understand people who have given money to Livestrong and feels defrauded or employees of Livestrong, need to forgive Lance. However, for us everyday fringe sport people, Lance means diddly squat.

[rugbysecondrow]

I can understands the OP's perspective, but to me Lance does not "need" forgiveness. He, IMO, needs nothing, since he is nothing in my eyes. He is not part of my family, does not influence my daily life (except to take up Paceline bandwith) and I do not lose any sleep over Lance and his daily actions. I can understand people who have given money to Livestrong and feels defrauded or employees of Livestrong, need to forgive Lance. However, for us everyday fringe sport people, Lance means diddly squat.


I agree with this as this is how I think and feel, but if somebody has enough anger to be declaritive about how they will not forgive him, then they are not in the same boat as you or me.

[bikerboy337]

Sorry, this is a simply web forum and I did not think through my post... forgive is not the word I should have used... have updated it with a little more thought...

sorry to be declaritive in my original title, was just trying to get people to watch lance describe why he'd never do drugs... thats it...

I agree with this as this is how I think and feel, but if somebody has enough anger to be declaritive about how they will not forgive him, then they are not in the same boat as you or me.

[Ralph]

"I never had sex with that girl".

[Tony T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBe_guezGGc

[CaliFly]

This is a huge and relevant big-picture question and I will say right up front I don't have the answer to it.

But I have my gut feeling on it - I think 'we' average folks need heros we can look up to and aspire to be more like. We crave that guidance and direction and these 'heros' can be that shining light on the hill that help us to look forward and keep moving toward the light. It feels like human nature.

If this is true (big IF) the problem as I see it is that in many cases the hero didn't necessarily earn the admiration but instead had it thrust upon them by a needy public. In other words it feels to me like we have some ideal of what a hero is and when someone comes along and it looks like he might fit into the hero suit we hang the label on him and start the admiration. And then because we are feeling so good about having this hero we overlook their obvious faults and indiscretions and go into sort of a denial.

If feels to me like the public at large does this with everyone from athletes to politicians to actors/celebrities and it's often not based on merit or reason but on our need to admire someone.

But who knows - I'm a blue collar guy making metal stuff and not educated in this area.

Good question though.


dave

I'll take this a step further...we don't necessarily need the ENTIRE hero. We just need those qualities of said hero onto which we can latch.

We're all imperfect. I'm sure many of us aren't proud of things we've said or done in the past. And to have someone splice a video of from then and superimpose it onto our lives today would be just silly.

A mentor of mine once said, "Absorb what's useful, and discard what isn't." I can do that with Lance...just like I can do that with Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Charles I-am-not-a-role-model Barkley or Barack Obama or any number of imperfect examples of human beings. Because I'm not forced to swallow the bad qualities of a person, but I can learn from them.

[1/2 Wheeler]

I'll take this a step further...we don't necessarily need the ENTIRE hero. We just need those qualities of said hero onto which we can latch.

We're all imperfect. I'm sure many of us aren't proud of things we've said or done in the past. And to have someone splice a video of from then and superimpose it onto our lives today would be just silly.

A mentor of mine once said, "Absorb what's useful, and discard what isn't." I can do that with Lance...just like I can do that with Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson or Charles I-am-not-a-role-model Barkley or Barack Obama or any number of imperfect examples of human beings. Because I'm not forced to swallow the bad qualities of a person, but I can learn from them.

Rational thought like this has no place on an internet forum. Keep these well informed opinions to yourself and your kids!

[William]

A mentor of mine once said, "Absorb what's useful, and discard what isn't."


That sounds very Bruce Lee'ish.;)

“Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own.”





William

[Vientomas]

A mentor of mine once said, "Absorb what's useful, and discard what isn't."

That's what my digestive system say too.

[CaliFly]

That sounds very Bruce Lee'ish.;)







William

No wonder my mentor always wore a yellow track suit.

[William]

No wonder my mentor always wore a yellow track suit.

;)

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/970165_o.gif




William

[bikingshearer]

I agree with much of what has been said here. Lance owes me no apologies. I am somewhat embarrassed and ticked off that he lied so brazenly and I bought it for as long as I did. Part of that, perhaps the largest part, is on me for being willing to believe blindly for quite a while. But Lance did not hurt me in any way that matters and certainly in no way in which I was not complicit in some manner.

And it is simply nuts to say that Lance only won because he doped. That's like saying he only won because he had legs and lungs. It would appear that almost all the pros doped. They all certainly had legs and lungs. What separated Lance from the rest was that he wanted it more than anyone else. He scouted the mountain passes more than anyone else, worked harder than anyone else, kept a monomaniacal focus better than anyone else. (Remember how Jan Ulrich got fat on Mom's home cooking pretty much every winter? You never saw Lance do that.) It doesn't make for a very attractive or well-rounded person, but it made for one hell of a racer.

However, he can never apologize enough to Emma O'Reilly, the Andreus, and the myriad others he has threatened, bullied, and tried to destroy. He was a bully - there is no other word for it - and I detest bullies. And why was he such a bully? For fame and fortune, pure and simple. For crass personal gain. For the most selfish of reasons. I do not doubt the sincerity of his commitment to cancer survivors and to beating cancer. But his actions over the past 15 years show louder than any words that his highest priority was always fame and fortune, and his cancer activities were at best his second priority.

It is his ongoing cruelty, the repeated efforts to destroy anyone who dared to challenge the image of St. Lance, that makes him utterly untrustworthy and utterly unworthy of respect in my eyes. He has demonstrated that his selfish desires trump considerations of human decency, pretty much every time. I doubt if he can ever overcome that in this lifetime, at least in my eyes. And that is not a matter of forgiveness, it is a matter of trust. I cannot see myself trusting him or his motives again.

I am also quite certain that he could not care less what I, or anyone else on this forum, think.

[Keith A]

bikingshearer -- Excellent post and I agree completely with your comments.

[Climb01742]

bikingshearer -- excellent post and i agree completely with your comments.

+1

[MattTuck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze0Vljiyhw


It's a shame. He was fun to watch.

[William]

bikingshearer -- Excellent post and I agree completely with your comments.

Nominated for POTD.





William

[William]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ze0Vljiyhw


...He was fun to watch.

Can't disagree. The man worked hard, planned tactics, and dominated a doped field while being a doper himself. Exciting to watch for sure, but all the other baggage he brought to the game eventually brought him down. Hopefully some good works it's way out of all this.





William

[krhea]

As I said in my only other post about Lance a long long time ago. I saw him, spoke with him, sponsored him, respected him, communicated with him on a regular basis as a great up and coming young triathlete/cyclist.
I watched and supported him throughout his career. For years I argued against every thing negative I heard about him. Greg Lemond pissed me off every time he opened his mouth about Lance. Greg, another young cyclist I had the pleasure of being around when he was an up and coming shining star who I watched go to the highest heights and then seem to become an "angry, jealous old man". I'm sorry I ever thought that about you Greg, you spoke the truth from the git go and none of us or the majority of us didn't want to believe it or hear it, you were right Greg.

It's a very strange and weird day for me and for a number of folks in my "circle" who were a part of Lance's early life. We still "remember when"...

I have a number of prototype items from Lance's sponsors along with all his books and a number of other momentos from his career. I had thought some day I'd give them to my youngest daughter who, at 10, is an avid cyclist with 3 cross races under her belt including a second place. I'd tell her my stories about dealing and working with Lance, how hard of worker he was, I'd show her that Nike poster of him training that said " "THIS IS MY BODY. AND I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO IT. I CAN PUSH IT. STUDY IT. TWEAK IT. LISTEN TO IT. EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW WHAT I'M ON. WHAT AM I ON? I'M ON MY BIKE BUSTING MY ASS SIX HOURS A DAY. WHAT ARE YOU ON?", she'd become inspired and continue cycling, even for fun, for as long as I have. Today I've gathered up everything Lance related in my house, put it in a box and will be getting rid of it when the trash man arrives on Friday.

As I said months ago, of course I'm not stupid, none of us were. We hoped as long as we could hope, that we might be wrong, but inside we knew. I'm not about heros and Lance was never a hero to me. He was a very determined, smart and blessed athlete who I admired, enjoyed watching and supporting and I was proud he was from the USA. I want my daughter to have those she admires, I hope I'm one of them and I also hope if she does ever have a "hero" that she chooses me, not some glorified, overpaid superstar.

As I said, today is a weird day. It's a sad day to my family members who don't ride and have never ridden but either have or are dealing with cancer and looked to Lance/Livestrong for faith, support, understanding and most of all honesty. They understood my passion for cycling because of their "connection" to Lance and that horrible disease. They were as excited as i would be when the Tour came around every summer. They had absolutely no idea what was going on other than, they're guy, Lance, who looked them in the eye, virtually "rode and won for them", would at some point look in the camera and tell them, if he could do it, so could they. They still wear the yellow bracelet, they might not tomorrow. They're heartbroken and do not understand the world of cycling like we do and they just don't get the how and why this happened and he did such a horrible thing.

I knew Lance from high school when virtually no one knew who the kid was until this morning when it was confirmed that he admitted cheating and multiple millions around the world know who he is.

"bikingshearer", the last paragraph of your post is perhaps the best written piece I've ever read about Lance. It says exactly how I feel.

The two things this whole situation brings to mind for me are the two tenants my parents beat into my head, one- do not let money or your seeming importance rule your life and two- treat others the way you want to be treated, respectfully, honestly and with compassion. None of those did Lance express.

So, in all the hundreds and possibly thousands of Lance related posts, I've posted twice and this is my last. Let's hope that someday there will be another kid who comes up and takes the world by storm and does it the right way. Who knows, it could be my daughter in The Grande Boucle.

[tuxbailey]

Great insights in this thread. Thanks for sharing.

[texbike]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/a-decade-of-denials-for-armstrong_271500

AUSTIN, Texas (AFP) — Lance Armstrong spent more than a decade vehemently denying accusations of doping, his reported confession on Monday coming only after the testimony of others had forever tainted his cycling legacy.

Below is a non-exhaustive list Armstrong’s doping denials since 2001:

2001
“This is my body and I can do whatever I want to it. I can push it, and study it, tweak it, listen to it. Everybody wants to know what I’m on. What am I on? I’m on my bike, busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?”
—Advertisement for Nike

July 2005
“I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics. I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I’ll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets – this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. Vive Le Tour.”
—After Armstrong’s seventh and final Tour de France victory

August 2005
“I have never doped, I can say it again, but I have said it for seven years — it doesn’t help.”
—On CNN’s “Larry King Live” after French newspaper L’Equipe reported tests on urine samples taken from Armstrong during the 1999 Tour and frozen were positive for blood-boosting erythropoietin (EPO)

2005
“… the faith of all the cancer survivors and almost everything I do off of the bike would go away too. Don’t think for a second I don’t understand that.”
—In testimony under oath during legal proceedings involving SCA Promotions over a bonus payment for a Tour de France victory

2007
“I was on my deathbed. You think I’m going to come back into a sport and say, ‘OK, OK doctor give me everything you got, I just want to go fast?’ No way. I would never do that.”
—Speaking of his life in an interview in Aspen with Bob Schieffer, a respected journalist with CBS and a cancer survivor

July 2009
“The critics say I’m arrogant. A doper. Washed up. A fraud. That I couldn’t let it go. They can say whatever they want. I’m not back on my bike for them.”
—Nike “Driven” commercial in the build-up to Armstrong’s first Tour de France since his comeback from retirement, showing Armstrong training in a Livestrong jersey juxtaposed with images of cancer patients

May 2010
“It’s our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility. Floyd lost his credibility a long time ago.”
—Response to Floyd Landis’ accusations of systematic doping in the U.S. Postal cycling team

June 13, 2012
“I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one.”
—Responding in a statement when the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency announced its charges against him

August 23, 2012
“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999.”
—Announcing he would not fight USADA’s charges and pursue a hearing to prove his innocence

LIESTRONG.

Texbike

[texbike]

Let's hope that someday there will be another kid who comes up and takes the world by storm and does it the right way. Who knows, it could be my daughter in The Grande Boucle.

Great post Kevin. I hope that your daughter does take the cycling world by storm one day!

Texbike

[Johnny P]

nominated for potd.





William

+1

[spdcyclist]

...I imagine he isn't all one of the things we like to think he is. he isn't all bad or all good. He is human and with that he did not make the best use of the responsibility he was given. He cheated and made millions.

You are being an Enabler.:no: He did it and needs to be held responsible for his actions. Since he has no conscience, hit him were he feels it most, in the wallet.:eek:

[DHallerman]

Interesting point about heroes and admiration, Dave.

Makes me think about Sonia Sotomayor, the Supreme Court Justice, who has been interviewed recently because she just published a memoir.

And talking on the radio the other day, she said that the memoir included all the problems she's had in her life, embarrassing stuff like an alcoholic father who died when she was 9 or her mother who was cold and uncaring.

And Justice Sotomayor said she included the bad stuff because she feels people can't get hope from reading her book unless they see how life can get better even when there are problems or faults to be overcome. In essence, her warts make her success more real.

Now, Justice Sotomayor was not a hero of mine before, and she isn't exactly one now -- but she has become a public person I admire just because she's willing to be real about herself, her life.

If only others were real, all along real.

Dave, who is not so much bothered by LA's lying and drugs but is totally disgusted by how he tried to ruin those who told the truth about him

This is a huge and relevant big-picture question and I will say right up front I don't have the answer to it.

But I have my gut feeling on it - I think 'we' average folks need heros we can look up to and aspire to be more like. We crave that guidance and direction and these 'heros' can be that shining light on the hill that help us to look forward and keep moving toward the light. It feels like human nature.

If this is true (big IF) the problem as I see it is that in many cases the hero didn't necessarily earn the admiration but instead had it thrust upon them by a needy public. In other words it feels to me like we have some ideal of what a hero is and when someone comes along and it looks like he might fit into the hero suit we hang the label on him and start the admiration. And then because we are feeling so good about having this hero we overlook their obvious faults and indiscretions and go into sort of a denial.

If feels to me like the public at large does this with everyone from athletes to politicians to actors/celebrities and it's often not based on merit or reason but on our need to admire someone.

But who knows - I'm a blue collar guy making metal stuff and not educated in this area.

Good question though.


dave

[Honey]

^^+1. I was a Lance doubter but when it comes to the racing, I still don't hate on him. It was an unfortunate time but the rules were simply do it, or pack up and go home. Those weren't his rules, he may have promoted them but those were the times. He was still better than everyone else and playing on a level playing field. The people who 'got jipped' were the ones (if any) who didn't dope and never made it to the show but you'll be hard pressed to say anyone on a level playing field could've beaten Lance. Not unlike any other major sport with major money involved where those who make it do anything possible to achieve their goals. Often heroes, whether sports related or otherwise, are idolized for specific accomplishments which get brushed by the public into a caricature of someone who is a 'better' 'person' than most people have ever met when ironically those who make it into the spotlight often make it there by 'negative' attributes: most notably a blend selfishness, arrogance, and machismo.


It is disappointing to say that there is sentiment that people feel Lance using negatively impacts Livestrong, which to the best of my limited knowledge has never been a major sponsor of cycling. I've always thought Lance to be one of the highest caliber jerks, from what I had heard / read/ believed about him, but simultaneously respect very few others to the same degree for the enormous positive he has bestowed on so many. On the order and in an area that very few else have outside the highest echelon (ghandi, mother theresa, MLK). Without allowing my stream of consciousness to divert into a political discussion I think it's pathetic that every issue needs to be black and white. Death and rape are black, but besides that most everything else is at least grey and should be viewed through the appropriate filter while looking at the whole landscape if possible. I guess I just don't quite get what cheating in a bike race, lying about it profusely should impede the support and fight against cancer.

[54ny77]

And all this time, here I thought it was Chris Carmichael's revolutionary approach to high cadence cycling that was the driving force behind Armstrong's success.

[bironi]

And all this time, here I thought it was Chris Carmichael's revolutionary approach to high cadence cycling that was the driving force behind Armstrong's success.

Yes, Fk C.C. I'd much rather follow the Flying Scot's training regime. He designed it himself and listened to his body for alterations.

[Elefantino]

“Had all the stars aligned with Lance and Greg, if he had kept a positive relationship, it would have ended up a $30 to $35 million brand.”
— Trek president John Burke on why he jettisoned LeMond bikes.

Livestrong, indeed.

[William]

“Had all the stars aligned with Lance and Greg, if he had stopped pointing out the lie, it would have ended up a $30 to $35 million brand” before it went down in flames when USADA revealed the truth.
— Trek president John Burke on why he jettisoned LeMond bikes.

Livestrong, indeed.

Fixed it for you.;)




William

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I've always thought Lance to be one of the highest caliber jerks, from what I had heard / read/ believed about him, but simultaneously respect very few others to the same degree for the enormous positive he has bestowed on so many. On the order and in an area that very few else have outside the highest echelon (ghandi, mother theresa, MLK).

. . . No.

I would respect him, too, if I had any impression whatsoever after all that's come to light that he bestowed whatever good he did as anything other than an accident coincidental to his efforts to hype himself and his ego.

It's incredibly difficult for me any more to believe he established the charity as anything other than a cynically calculated exercise in self-aggrandizement. The nail in the coffin on that has been his willingness to use that information as an excuse and a shield when publicly criticized.

As to Ghandi and Mother Theresa . . . if I am reading you right and you are comparing the good Lance has done with the good these other two have done, then I disagree in the strongest terms--and then some. Such a comparison is a grave insult to those two genuinely real humanitarians.

BBD

[Pete Mckeon]

and he would never be of social interest to me nor would his social and character demonstrations

but he won the TDF 7 times after having cancer AND also doping is across the sport and many others sports to some extent .

He did assist in the sport we all love in getting more USA riders and also the riders like us. He also helped raise awareness, $$s and hope for us who had or will have cancer.

No I would not use him as a blind date for my daughter for she is not blond like most of his significant others nor someone I could be good friends with.


BUT HE DID ALOT IN MY VIEW FOR creating hope for cancer survivors and making cycling more popular here.

I will not get off my bandwagon and put him is the history of my feeble mind:bike::bike:

[Honey]

BBD I don't disagree you and I'm sorry if my words weren't clear. (Also worth noting I put him below mlk et all) but what I meant was to remove the person from the equation and look at the result. There are many who have benefited from live strong even if its roots are compromised. How many athletes have affected such positive change in the world as he has. Jackie Robinson set out to change the game and he did in addition to being a quality person AFAIK. Because lance wasn't does that mean we should stop and due less for cancer or should it taint the positive live strong has accomplished?

[Honey]

Heck Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves but does that mean his contributions to America's founding should be lessened. He wasn't a role model but to say because he was a bad person negates anything he did otherwise is too black and white for my taste.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . I can certainly agree that the foundation he established has done a lot of good. But this whole affair with Armstrong is so inextricably linked--to me, at least--with who he is as a person that I would find it difficult to cut him some slack just because of that.

I find it highly doubtful that Ghandi or Mother Theresa did all that they indisputably did just in an effort to make themselves look good. And even taking into account Jefferson's personal life, I strongly doubt he wrote the Declaration of Independence or participated in the continental Congress only to make himself look good.

But the more I hear about Lance the easier it is for me to believe that he DID set up the foundation purely as a self-promotional vehicle. I'm not ready to fully make that assumption yet. I'd love to believe that when he first set it up he really DID have noble intentions and not just because his PR flack told him it would be good for his reputation. But maintaining that belief is getting more and more difficult.

BBD

[Keith A]

Speaking of Livestrong, here's the statement they issued today about Lance and Oprah...

AUSTIN, Texas – Jan. 16, 2013 – Due to the number of media inquiries regarding Lance Armstrong’s interview with Oprah Winfrey airing this Thursday and Friday, the LIVESTRONG Foundation today issued the following statement:

“This week, Lance came to the LIVESTRONG Foundation to talk to our team in person. He expressed his regret for the stress the team suffered in recent years as a result of the controversy surrounding his cycling career. He asked that they stay focused on serving people affected by cancer, something our team has always done excellently and will continue to do.

We expect Lance to be completely truthful and forthcoming in his interview and with all of us in the cancer community. We expect we will have more to say at that time. Regardless, we are charting a strong, independent course forward that is focused on helping people overcome financial, emotional and physical challenges related to cancer. Inspired by the people with cancer whom we serve, we feel confident and optimistic about the Foundation’s future and welcome an end to speculation.”

[Honey]

BBD Definitely agree with that. He seems to be a world class jerk I was just posting some frustration over the backlash whether fair or not- of a charity that has produced positives for people that have nothing to do with lance. And again I would NEVER paint him as a humanitarian

[Elefantino]

We are mentioning him in the same breath with Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King and Thomas Jefferson. Not comparing, just mentioning.

Still ...

http://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/4-8/t1bCxsqqAt-6.png

[Climb01742]

as for historical figures that one might mention in the same sentence as lance, please see andrew carnegie. the only thing lance shares with some of those mentioned above is that they all drew breath on this earth and that's it.

[Vientomas]

Major League Soccer's Sporting Kansas City have ended their stadium naming deal with Livestrong, the cancer foundation started by disgraced former cycling champion Lance Armstrong, the team said on Tuesday.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/club-says-livestrong-stadium-deal-over-035354601--sow.html

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Let's add Jim Jones of Jonestown to balance out the historical comparisons with Lance.

[shovelhd]

khrea, that's powerful stuff. You must feel betrayed after having invested so much into what he seemed to be. Thanks for writing it.

Shortly after I left bike racing in the 1980's, I watched the Junior Lance Armstrong lap the P/1/2 field solo at Fitchburg. It was a sight to behold. He made it look so easy.

[Pearsom]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/a-decade-of-denials-for-armstrong_271500

AUSTIN, Texas (AFP) — Lance Armstrong spent more than a decade vehemently denying accusations of doping, his reported confession on Monday coming only after the testimony of others had forever tainted his cycling legacy.

Below is a non-exhaustive list Armstrong’s doping denials since 2001:

2001
“This is my body and I can do whatever I want to it. I can push it, and study it, tweak it, listen to it. Everybody wants to know what I’m on. What am I on? I’m on my bike, busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?”
—Advertisement for Nike

July 2005
“I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics. I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I’ll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets – this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. Vive Le Tour.”
—After Armstrong’s seventh and final Tour de France victory

August 2005
“I have never doped, I can say it again, but I have said it for seven years — it doesn’t help.”
—On CNN’s “Larry King Live” after French newspaper L’Equipe reported tests on urine samples taken from Armstrong during the 1999 Tour and frozen were positive for blood-boosting erythropoietin (EPO)

2005
“… the faith of all the cancer survivors and almost everything I do off of the bike would go away too. Don’t think for a second I don’t understand that.”
—In testimony under oath during legal proceedings involving SCA Promotions over a bonus payment for a Tour de France victory

2007
“I was on my deathbed. You think I’m going to come back into a sport and say, ‘OK, OK doctor give me everything you got, I just want to go fast?’ No way. I would never do that.”
—Speaking of his life in an interview in Aspen with Bob Schieffer, a respected journalist with CBS and a cancer survivor

July 2009
“The critics say I’m arrogant. A doper. Washed up. A fraud. That I couldn’t let it go. They can say whatever they want. I’m not back on my bike for them.”
—Nike “Driven” commercial in the build-up to Armstrong’s first Tour de France since his comeback from retirement, showing Armstrong training in a Livestrong jersey juxtaposed with images of cancer patients

May 2010
“It’s our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility. Floyd lost his credibility a long time ago.”
—Response to Floyd Landis’ accusations of systematic doping in the U.S. Postal cycling team

June 13, 2012
“I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one.”
—Responding in a statement when the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency announced its charges against him

August 23, 2012
“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999.”
—Announcing he would not fight USADA’s charges and pursue a hearing to prove his innocence

Here is a video of some of the denials

http://deadspin.com/5975801/lets-watch-lance-armstrong-repeatedly-deny-he-used-peds?post=56177387

[DukeHorn]

For years I argued against every thing negative I heard about him. Greg Lemond pissed me off every time he opened his mouth about Lance. Greg, another young cyclist I had the pleasure of being around when he was an up and coming shining star who I watched go to the highest heights and then seem to become an "angry, jealous old man". I'm sorry I ever thought that about you Greg, you spoke the truth from the git go and none of us or the majority of us didn't want to believe it or hear it, you were right Greg.


Wow, this is what I said I was looking for in another thread. An acknowledgement by Lance's formerly passionate defenders that they treated a lot of his detractors with undeserved contempt and anger. Thank you for expressing this.

[tuxbailey]

Wow, this is what I said I was looking for in another thread. An acknowledgement by Lance's formerly passionate defenders that they treated a lot of his detractors with undeserved contempt and anger. Thank you for expressing this.

Rick Reilly also feels like a chump now.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852974/lance-armstrong-history-lying

[Climb01742]

that's an honest column, reilly wrote. must not have been easy to admit. kudos.

[54ny77]

"The elastic has snapped."

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/10/22/1226500/732397-lance-armstrong.jpg

[PQJ]

Don't know where to put this so I'll stick it here. Cyclingnews has a story on Landis' whistleblower suit. Whereas I once thought Armstrong would not end up in jail, I now think he will and he may be taking some of his mates with him. Not saying I think that's where he/they should end up, just saying what I think is gonna happen. I've been right about him before. If only he would've offered Floyd a spot on RS or another team!!!!

[CunegoFan]

Don't know where to put this so I'll stick it here. Cyclingnews has a story on Landis' whistleblower suit. Whereas I once thought Armstrong would not end up in jail, I now think he will and he may be taking some of his mates with him. Not saying I think that's where he/they should end up, just saying what I think is gonna happen. I've been right about him before. If only he would've offered Floyd a spot on RS or another team!!!!

Worse than that, the rumor is that Armstrong was instrumental in the UCI and ASO blackballing Landis so no Pro Tour team would hire him. It probably did not help that at the Tour of Gila, Armstrong and his buds were making fun of Landis because he was riding on a tiny U.S. team. This may go down as the dumbest attack in cycling history.

[Joachim]

Lance can always find a job cleaning Landis' future horse stables, "Hey Lance, you missed a spot, just use your shirt".

[cnighbor1]

Lance was at Death's Door. to hold anyone who has been at death's door to our always healthy thru life standards is not in my view possible.
We have no idea what is like to wake each day and know your lived one more day.
than when recovered what our morals like. we can't answer that.
Charles

[nightfend]

I'm not the first to consider this, but there is always the possibility that the testosterone gels and patches he was using early on in his professional racing career caused the cancer that he is so famous for overcoming.

[ultraman6970]

Somebody said that in the press already, cant remember the guy but the words were "he gave him cancer.."

As for Phill... well no comments...

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13716/Liggett-now-accepts-Armstrong-cheated-says-he-is-still-a-great-athlete.aspx

[CunegoFan]

Lance was at Death's Door. to hold anyone who has been at death's door to our always healthy thru life standards is not in my view possible.
We have no idea what is like to wake each day and know your lived one more day.
than when recovered what our morals like. we can't answer that.
Charles

Maybe you no idea but I do. I guess I now have a license to cheat, defraud, lie, and bully.

In fact, since I have been there twice, I guess I have a super secret double license. Hey, if I count the time I was caught in an avalanche while solo mountaineering in the winter then I have a triple license.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Rick Reilly also feels like a chump now.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852974/lance-armstrong-history-lying

. . . saying how Lance had called certain figures in cycling to either talk or apologize, or both. But this is the first account I've seen that's a confirmation from anyone that they were actually contacted in any way.

I'd be PO'd, too, if I was Reilly. What a laughably poor excuse for an "apology." And how appropriate Reilly's suspicions that Lance is still just trying to play him--and many, many others--for suckers.

BBD

[Vientomas]

. . . saying how Lance had called certain figures in cycling to either talk or apologize, or both. But this is the first account I've seen that's a confirmation from anyone that they were actually contacted in any way.

I'd be PO'd, too, if I was Reilly. What a laughably poor excuse for an "apology." And how appropriate Reilly's suspicions that Lance is still just trying to play him--and many, many others--for suckers.

BBD

What was it George Bush said? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...won't get fooled again."

[Keith A]

Rick Reilly also feels like a chump now.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852974/lance-armstrong-history-lying
Great read...thanks for posting it.

[tuxbailey]

Great read...thanks for posting it.

Yes I thought that was honest. I wonder if Sally Jenkins has the courage to write something like that.

[bironi]

Yes I thought that was honest. I wonder if Sally Jenkins has the courage to write something like that.

Naw, I think she's gone into witness protection.

[54ny77]

no, she's still trying to pull her head out from his ass.

you should have heard her the other night on charlie rose. it was almost laughable in her incomprehension of what has occurred, what lance had done to other peoples' lives. she is his friend, which she said time & again.

essentially she was saying make it a level playing field, define the criteria for what constitutes "performance enhancing" drugs.



Yes I thought that was honest. I wonder if Sally Jenkins has the courage to write something like that.

[beeatnik]

Lance was at Death's Door. to hold anyone who has been at death's door to our always healthy thru life standards is not in my view possible.
We have no idea what is like to wake each day and know your lived one more day.
than when recovered what our morals like. we can't answer that.
Charles

Are you on meds?

Serious question.

And let's put to rest the Lance is a complicated human being nonsense. He's a sociopath. It's hard for normal, honest, psychologically stable persons to understand this. Years back, I knew a guy who had two fiancees. One was in grad school and the other was a young network exec. Obviously, both very smart (and gorgeous) women. I asked him, in disbelief, how he was able to juggle both relationships and keep track of all the lies (the young executive believed that he was a Los Angeles City Firefighter). He said in the most matter of fact way, "honest people never expect to be lied to so they never question what I tell them." Luckily, I've only known one sociopath personally.

[tuxbailey]

no, she's still trying to pull her head out from his ass.

you should have heard her the other night on charlie rose. it was almost laughable in her incomprehension of what has occurred, what lance had done to other peoples' lives. she is his friend, which she said time & again.

essentially she was saying make it a level playing field, define the criteria for what constitutes "performance enhancing" drugs.

That is pretty sad. I read the post locally and she writes some good columns.

But to not willing to see that steroids, and other PED could have detrimental effects on a person's health is really, really biased. And blind.