Battenkill Pro Race Out--Gran Fondo In

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13677/Tour-of-the-Battenkill-pro-race-to-be-replaced-by-new-Gran-Fondo.aspx#post-comments

Pros? Cons? Amateurs races are still on. Anybody planning on entering?

BBD

[gavingould]

bummer that the pro race is no more. gran fondo probably a good thing though - and good cash maker.

[MattTuck]

Wow. I wonder if Lance will apologize for this also...


I don't know if I buy that rationale. If they provide a good product, I'd think they'd have the sponsors and interest.


Didn't they have a big wreck last year in the Pro field due to an off camber turn?

[CNY rider]

How bout you Dave?
You riding? Photoing? Both?
I'm interested.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I'm shooting it again with my usual Moto Man. (No, not THAT Moto Man! :rolleyes: )

I think Dieter is trying to make a profit and feed his family. Seems obvious from some of the comments on Facebook that a fair number of people just don't understand that. This has always been his cash cow supporting the other races he puts together and he does have 5 (or is it 6 now?) kids.

This move maximizes profit for him by expanding the number of paying slots for riders and it save a lot on expenses and work . . . no rolling closure with attendant sheriff and trooper costs, no license fees to the UCI or USAC, and is likely to please sponsors (especially like Stan's NoTubes) who make bike equipment and will see their products promoted to even more potential customers. Also easier to attract other bike industry sponsors and to the expo with total of 4-5k riders in town.

I think it will still be a fun race to photograph, but the Cat 1-2 races will now assume the top spots. For purely interesting pictures the Gran Fondo might be even more interesting than the pro race because if it's "open to the general public" with no racing licenses then you're going to have some people riding who are going to provide some good photos opps with crashes, bonking, etc. Gauntlet on Meeting House Road should be, ah, interesting!

Matt, there are always a couple of crashes every year. Two years ago a couple of the guys in the 60+ group had to be airlifted, but I was at the whole other #$%& end of the course when it happened.

I know there was carnage on Becker last year in the pro race because I was there. Off camber dirt section and they had just dumped a bunch of fresh rock on it. You could tell which guys hadn't pre-ridden the course and that guy flat on his butt missed me by about two feet. :eek:

BBD

[FGC]

It looks like he tries to milk the cash cow at most races. There are 3 crits posted on BikeReg that are $45, unless you're a 1 or 2, then it's $55. I'm sure the prize lists will be as generous as Battenkill, which means they won't be. And he posted dates that are opposite popular, long-running races. I know where I'm going.

1) I'm annoyed with the movement to Gran Fondo-ize the sport because it makes a promoter more money than an actual race, which leads me to

2) Aren't teams supposed to put on events to get official standing with USAC? Teams are bailing and Dieter Drake is filling the vacuum with Gran Fondo events. The Battenkill category races are essentially Gran Fondos themselves - not many people are racing because it's so selective.

I know that people are into the GF scene and that's fine. But it's cutting into races.

[shovelhd]

Deiter has also purchased quite a few of the classic races in the Northeast, kept the prize money the same, and jacked the heck out of the entry fees. The thought that Battenkill is a cash cow that supports other races is not even close to reality. He is a for-profit corporation. His entry fees are higher than any other promoter. If there are no other decent races that weekend, he sets the market. Let's not make him out to be a saint.

[shovelhd]

Aren't teams supposed to put on events to get official standing with USAC?

A new team gets a pass the first year. They can also co-promote a race with another team and get credit for it. Teams also change names and sponsors, which can reset the clock.

[Bruce K]

I have no dog in this fight but, isn't the idea of operating a business to make money?

Dieter may not be a saint and that's OK. Riders can participate and pay the fee or vote with their wallets and walk away.

If there are other races/fondos, go there and then he will be out of business. If that happens, the market will have changed the landscape and others will fill the void, or not, in which case there will be no more road racing.

Promoters aren't in it to be saints, they are in it to make money, unless the promoter is a not for profit organization such as a club.

Riders/racers have choices.

BK

[54ny77]

i wish i was in shape to race battenkill. ahh, maybe next year...

when i last did it, was probably the most fun on a road bike i've ever had in a race, ever.

i couldn't even fathom, in the most remote, farthest sense, what it must be like riding paris roubaix or some of the other hardcore belgian classics that go through crappy roads at full tilt.

if you can swing the $, and are in shape, do it. don't go for the race if you're not, it won't be fun.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Deiter has also purchased quite a few of the classic races in the Northeast, kept the prize money the same, and jacked the heck out of the entry fees. The thought that Battenkill is a cash cow that supports other races is not even close to reality. He is a for-profit corporation. His entry fees are higher than any other promoter. If there are no other decent races that weekend, he sets the market. Let's not make him out to be a saint.

"Promoters aren't in it to be saints, they are in it to make money, unless the promoter is a not for profit organization such as a club."

Indeed. Pay the fee and enjoy, or don't and walk away. The market will decide. What gets me is how many people gripe about the entry fee and seem to think he should be operating races as a charity for riders.

It's a business.

BBD

[Nooch]

i'm with those who say the race is essentially a gran fondo to begin with... hell, I'd almost see if I could move my registration out of the cat 4 to the gran fondo just because I know there's no way in hell I'll be competitive in my field. as a bucket list race, i jumped on it this year, but I'll likely be riding alone in upstate new york after driving for three hours come april... and that's not exactly fun..

[christian]

Hey Nooch - we can carpool. At least that way, we won't be driving alone!

[Lovetoclimb]

Since the course and roads have to be the bulk of the experience that is Battenkill, why not just go ride the route at a time other than when the race is on? Organize some friends and ride/race at whatever pace pleases? Then inject the $45 or whatever entry fee into post ride libations! This has been my strategy when races no longer seem attractive to me for whatever reason. I personally race to win or gauge my form before an upcoming major race and the idea of paying more than $30 for a race entry is absurd. I have organized races and a small gran fondo. I know where the costs come in and the profit margin promoters are turning even when 500 or less people show up. So I use this knowledge to walk away when it seems like a rip off. Battenkill seems like a huge rip off. That said, I would like to make it up there and ride those roads sometime.

[shovelhd]

I think Dieter is trying to make a profit and feed his family. Seems obvious from some of the comments on Facebook that a fair number of people just don't understand that. This has always been his cash cow supporting the other races he puts together and he does have 5 (or is it 6 now?) kids.

I have no problem that he is a professional promoter and needs to make a profit. It is the statement above that I disagree with. Battenkill may be a cash cow, but it's not like he pours the profits into the other races to keep the entry fees low. It's exactly like you said, it's a business, and a business must make a profit to stay in business. I stand by my statement about setting the market. His races are typically between 25-50% higher than his "competition".

What I don't think you understand is that amateur bike racing in the Northeast is run primarily by amateur promoters. Their goal is very different than Dieter's. Having been on the race committee of these races, I know first hand. Profit is secondary, breaking even is the goal. Entry fees straddle the fine line between making enough to break even and filling the fields. It's a balance.

I also don't think you understand the state of amateur bike racing in the Northeast. I see it all over the country as well, but let's just talk about the Northeast for a moment. Look at the age of the fields. Look at how few Juniors are entering the sport. Look at how the P/1/2, even P/1/2/3 fields are not full. Sometimes my Masters fields are twice the size of the P/1/2. The fields that are full are Cat5 and maybe Cat4, both of which have field sizes limited by USAC. These are recreational riders who are either occasional racers or are trying out the sport. They come and they go. The racing population is aging, and it is not being backfilled with younger riders.

Bike racing is an expensive sport. Sponsorship of amateurs has all but disappeared except for those at the national level. Travel costs are getting to the point where racers have to decide if the race is worth the costs or not. I talk to a lot of racers. They all echo the same thing. Bike racing in the Northeast is a declining sport. Adding to the costs doesn't help this.

Dieter's races are really no different than anyone else's. They are certainly not 25%-50% better. So if he is getting criticism, it is understandable, if you are the one paying the costs. I'll do his races. I'll help him make his profits. But I have a right to criticize his choices.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I But I have a right to criticize his choices.

. . . and go right ahead. From my viewpoint as a cyclist, but a non-racer, I don't have that much of a dog in this fight. To me it's a weekend to go have fun, ride the moto, and get some good photos, which gives me personal satisfaction. Sometimes it makes me a few bucks, too, and sometimes not . . . but if the race disappeared tomorrow not the end of my world.

But I also see how the race has grown and that somebody is paying the race fees. He's consistently got over 3000 people racing and for several years the event has been the biggest one day race in America. I hear people griping about the entry fees, and I have to suppress the urge to respond, "Well then, don't go."

I don't really feel I need to understand the state of bike racing in the Northeast or anywhere else to understand that bottom line, it IS a business and any business will charge what the market will bear and if it can't make a profit it will die. This one is no different.

As I see it, the guy is experimenting with his business to find a formula that will let him make a profit and continue to run the business and expand it. I don't see that as different from any other business. But I do read on Facebook and in comments sections on VN.com and elsewhere (check out the comments on that Velonation story) people complaining that is somehow wrong and he's "lining his pockets," apparently because it's a bike race.

Well, I don't see him driving around in a limo or sporting diamond pinky rings. I do see him and his whole family running around like crazy people for the two days of the race trying to make sure everything works just right and people have a good experience. I also see how he sponsors a developmental team and I see literally thousands of people there racing and watching who are either having a pretty good time for their allegedly overpriced entry fees or else they're really good actors.

He's running a small business and trying to make it into a bigger business. More power to him if he can. The huge majority of new small businesses don't succeed. I guess if the product doesn't meet your expectations, then don't buy it.

BBD

[T.J.]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13677/Tour-of-the-Battenkill-pro-race-to-be-replaced-by-new-Gran-Fondo.aspx#post-comments

Pros? Cons? Amateurs races are still on. Anybody planning on entering?

BBD

Looks like the cat2 field isn't full yet so I could but man that's a trip and a half for me

[shovelhd]

I get your point of view regarding small business, however you are taking a bit of a myopic view. You don't seem to be a myopic kind of guy.

Every business needs to understand their market. That was my point regarding bike racing in the Northeast. This is the market he is selling his product in. I believe that he is very aware of what the market will bear. He has had to cancel his races because of low turnout. Whether that was due to pricing, dates, conflicts, I don't know.

If all you see is Battenkill, I can understand that you wouldn't know this. Battenkill is an anomaly. It is a race with a long history. It used to be a UCI race, and an NRC race. Not anymore. People come from all over to do it because it is early in the season, it is tough, and it has a prestige about it that is based on history more than any other factor.

Every successful business needs to listen to their customer. It is not just a few grumblings on the race circuit. I hear this all the time about his races. Right now it is a declining market. Driving prices up is not a good thing in a declining market.

Thanks for riding moto at the races.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and I do know some of his other races have been cancelled due to low turnout. Some of them have been around here. But I don''t see that as any different from Starbucks opening a new store and if it doesn't live up to expectations within a reasonable amount of time they close it back down.

Actually, maybe I shouldn't use Starbucks as an example because they are a huge corporation and have the resources to let the new store operate at a loss for a few years and see if things turn around. Dieter doesn't have those resources and can't do that. I believe the Tour of Vail was a one time thing and so was the Tour of Washtenaw.

Battenkill started out as a small local race and then BOOM! Why? What are the exact reasons? How can he duplicate that formula other places? I think that's what he's trying to figure out and he's had a few failed experiments.

Looking at Battenkill, it's not in a great spot for a bike race at first glance. Not particularly close to lodging facilities, major airport, highway access, and nearest "tourist" town--Saratoga--is 40 minutes away. So it's also not convenient for TV coverage or for piggybacking off of already-existing local tourist attractions. But all the riders come anyway. Why?

When I saw he was doing the race in Washtenaw and looked at a map, it seemed like a no-brainer even though I've never been there. It seems to correct all of those faults. It's close to Detroit, close to Ann Arbor, close to a major airport, yet from looking at photos still seems to have the type of rural dirt/paved roads that seem to make Battenkill so attractive. But I don't think he's doing it again so it must not have worked out as well as he wanted profit-wise.

I think he's unwittingly found a successful business model some years ago when the race originally took off and now he's trying to find the individual ingredients to make it work elsewhere. That's going to take some experimentation.

Assuming you are right and races in the past have been organized by amateurs whose main goal is just to break even, then what cycling might need to grow is some involvement by pros and I think he's trying to be a pro and learning as he goes. I'm not sure--I've never talked to him in person about this.

But I think he made perfect sense on Facebook in saying that the climate for selling to sponsors right now is awful and yes, part of that IS due to what's been going on with Armstrong. USAC makes it harder, not easier to put on a pro race, and that "The vast majority of racers don't really care one way or the other, they just want a tough, well-run event."

If he has misjudged how much they are willing to pay for entry in that event, then he will pay the price. But a lot of the negative comments I have seen recently about whatever decisions he's made don't seem to be well-based in an understandings of the obvious (to me at least) business realities of putting on such events.

BBD