Bidding on your own ebay listing (shill bidding)

[nmrt]

Hello Everyone,
I am just bummed out by this. For the past few months I have lurking on ebay looking for some Ti Bike frames, some sunglasses, and also some wheelsets. I have looked over hundreds of listings from various sellers. Each and everyone of these listings has had the seller bid on his own item to increase the price. In many cases, after the item has been "won", you can find out that the person who won the listing was the seller himself.
What is going on? What's up with the paucity of honest sellers at ebay?
Of course, ebay wont do a thing -- the higher the item sells for, the bigger their cut.

I hate ebay is what I am trying to say.

[fiamme red]

Once as I was bidding on an item, it became clear to me that the seller was bidding up his own item under not one, but two aliases. At that time, a bidder's identity wasn't hidden as it is now. I sent a message to eBay. They agreed with me, and banned the seller (and his aliases).

[MattTuck]

nothing unique about ebay. there are dishonest scammers trying to rip you off everywhere.

[nmrt]

I mean this shill bidding is really rampant. Pick any listing which has more than 5-6 bids, you will find that the seller is shill bidding. Just look at the following that I picked at random:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-GT-ZASKAR-CARBON-NINER-PRO-SIZE-LARGE-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-/140901863917?pt=Mountain_Bikes&hash=item20ce67d1ed

or this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oakley-Fives-Squared-White-/150975561813?pt=US_Sunglasses&hash=item2326d84055

or this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zipp-303-Carbon-Tubular-Wheelset-American-Classic-/160950748548?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2579698584

[Jaq]

Yeah, you just gotta be Zen about it. It's changed the way I bid on various items. If it's something I know will sell (like 28-hole Record hubs), then I'll plug in a max price I'm willing to pay and call it a day. If I win, great. If not, another will come along.

If it's a more obscure item, I'll bid low and watch, maybe keep an eye on the number of bidders. If it's more than 3 or 4, I'll get more involved. If it's just a few, I'll up my bid just once, then walk away if someone tops it.

Edit: hm. Never thought about a higher number of bidders being indicative of a ringer in there somewhere. Food for thought.

[DukeHorn]

I'm not quite sure how you can determine that. Before the hidden identities, I had reported shill bidding and certain instances (two) where aliases were used to bid over my max, the bid was retracted and there was a follow up bid to get me to my max.

So I really struggle with "each and everyone of" hundreds of listings being played that way now. This guy has been selling premium small (48cm-49cm) frames the past 4 months. I don't see any hint of shilling in his past listings.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=160946589318

Can you put forth any concrete examples??


And frankly if a person wins his own auction, doesn't he still have to pay (a) the listing fees and (b) percentage of the final auction? It's like he set a minimum reserve in a different format. I'm fine with that.

[Scuzzer]

Just look at the following that I picked at random

I'm having a hard time following your logic using the examples you provided.

[Louis]

I'm not quite sure how you can determine that.


Agreed.

I'm a bit of a ebay novice - how does one figure this out?

[DukeHorn]

Ok, I thinking you may be confusing concepts with your listing examples. Your examples aren't shill bids.

The Zaskar bidding is a guy trying to find the reserve mininum. That's why he's bidding in 100 increments to find the reserve.

The Oakley bidding is a guy finding the max amount of another bidder and then preemptively raising his own bid. I do that all the time.

The Zipp bidding is just a guy bidding up in increments. That's not shill bidding. That's just bidding up slow trying to figure out where the current max bidder is at. Again, I do that all the time.

Let's be clear. it's not shill bidding just because someone puts multiple bids on an item.

[nmrt]

Well, the way I try to figure it out is after the listing ends. You look at the bidding history and click on the "user names". Then you can find what percent of this user's bids has been with this seller.

In the ebay example given above my Dukehorn: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=160946589318

look at the user "2**s". He has 109 ebay ratings. But the crucial part is that 34% of his bids are with the seller of the item. Through my logic, "2**s" is a shill bidder.

Do the same thing for the three listing I provided in my earlier posts. You will find out the same thing.

[slidey]

I'm certainly a novice in eBay ways having never sold anything on there, but I don't quite understand how you can determine if the seller is bidding on his own item.

I see many a times that the bids will have the same id bidding multiple times, outdoing themselves, but what's wrong in that. I have knowingly done so for multiple items, just to make sure I was clear to win the item. Results however have been varied.

[ultraman6970]

Well the zaskar guy has zero feedback that could be or not a trick to bump the bid, between you and me that guy will win the thing.

[Ralph]

I buy a lot of stuff on E bay. I never bid until about 10 seconds to go. Not interested in bidding up my price. if price too high, I pass. I think, one way or another, things usually go for about what they are worth. If shill bidding moves it up to high, it doesn't sell, and the shill, friend or alias, is stuck with the selling cost, and they eventually learn their lesson and let the market place work.....if they really want to sell something.

[nmrt]

hmmm....I see what you're saying Duke. But there is no reserve on the Zaskar listing. Besides it is why more likely, in my opinion, that "r**0" is just the seller increasing the price of the item. Especially when 100% of all his bids are with the current seller. The same logic applies to all of the other listings I've inclusing in this thread.

The key is to look at the bidding history (and the % bids) of the current bidder towards the seller of the item.

I hope people are following my logic. Also, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Fishbike]

Ebay has a lot of rules, but there are also many elements of gamesmanship to it. One of the elements of the gamesmanship is the potential to get a great deal as a buyer. But as buyers we have to realize that great deals are few and far between and that sellers are looking to maximize their selling price. So you have to determine the items worth to you and not worry about folks -- including any sellers -- who bid higher. My suggestion is to wait until the last few seconds to bid and see what happens. It helps keep folks sort of honest and is a fun part of the gamesmanship.

[DukeHorn]

Well, I don't want to see conspiracies where there aren't any.

First, the Zaskar does have a reserve (that's why it says the reserve is met in the ad). The current leader can't bid over himself and have the bids show unless he's been trying to meet the reserve (which looks like it's $2,000).

As for your point about the 34% on 2***s. I sort of chuckled because you'll see the same thing for me with this seller. He's put up a bunch of 48-49cm frames (Serotta, Landshark, Colnagos) in the past 2 months and I've bid on a number of them. He's got some real good stuff so I've actually been tracking him as a seller. But I'm not a shill bidder for him, he's just got items I'm interested in. (You have the remember that the percentage is for the last 30 days so it can be quite high with one seller if he's been putting up good stuff in bunches in a short time frame).

[Ralph]

Shill bidders can get caught if competing bids come from same IP address. I've had inquiry from E bay before, when I had wife, who has her own E bay account, bid on something I was selling. Got it too high, and she bought it. We learned our lesson about that. I think most hi volume sellors are legit. They just bypass the auction method with "buy now" pricing.

[Dromen]

anyone try this - auctionsniper.com

[thwart]

Another twist to shill bidding... 'second chance' offers.

How this works is that if the top bidder flakes out and doesn't pay, the seller can offer the item to the next highest bidder... whose bid was likely driven up by the shill bidder/winner.

For example, you put in a bid of $100 for a Campy RD. Bidding ensues, but it's at $80 with a few minutes to go. Things are looking good. Then someone 'snipes' a bid at the very end for $105.

Damn...

But wait, you recieve a 'second chance' offer an hour later, the OP can't pay. You can buy that sweet RD for your highest bid, $100.

Cool.

But without the shill bidder, you would have paid $80.

Not so cool.

[Pars]

anyone try this - auctionsniper.com

Yes, I use it and like it.

As for shills and bidding on ebay, if the bidder has 0 feedback and 100% bids with the seller of the auction, could be a shill. I hate that they cloak the IDs anymore, and I really hate it when a seller has a private auction, where they don't even disclose that. There used to be some freeware that would analyze the bidding on an auction and alert you to the possibility of shills, but since they now hide the ID, I don't think there is anymore.

Look for auctions where the item brand or detail is missing or misspelled, and also look to see how many people are watching an auction. As for the brand, I always laugh when a seller does that, usually with the correctly spelled item sitting right there in the photo :rolleyes:

[bargainguy]

There's an easy answer to all this. Don't use ebay for buying.

Whether buyer or seller, you only have to be burned once to get the message that not everything is as it seems.

There are plenty of bike shops across the country that have unbuilt frames just waiting to be snapped up. It might not be as easy to find them as ebay makes it, but the risks are much less with established shops. Private sellers too, once you vet them.

Also don't forget the power of posting a WTB: here or on another established forum. Not a guarantee the seller will be legit, but you can vet them somewhat by looking up previous posts.

[Don49]

look at the user "2**s". He has 109 ebay ratings. But the crucial part is that 34% of his bids are with the seller of the item. Through my logic, "2**s" is a shill bidder.It doesn't work that way. The bid history is a 30 day summary and has nothing to do with the total number of eBay feedbacks. If 2**s had placed 3 bids on eBay in the last 30 days, and one of those bids was on this auction, then yes, 34% of his bids are with this seller, but it's still just one bid.

I'm pretty sure a seller is automatically blocked from bidding on his own auctions, but if not you can identify the seller in the bidder list by looking at the feedback numbers, they would match.

[DukeHorn]

The only problem with your example is that you first found out about the bike on ebay. Unless the CL listing was local, you still have somewhat of the same issues with CL about the bike being unseen. Those questions you asked him on CL you could easily have asked the guy on ebay, right?

I have a Rocky Mountain Element TO and a Serotta Fierte off of ebay. A Calfee Tetra, a Merlin Ti and a Miyata 610 off of CL. Both are useful tools.

Going to a bike shop to find great used bikes under $1200? Don't see it.

[bargainguy]

Dukehorn, valid points, but have you ever been burned on the bay? My guess is no. I have, both as buyer and seller, enough times to want to stay away. If the OP has any doubts as to legitimacy of the bids on any given item, I'd suggest staying away from those items, but that's just me.

As to choice frames from a bike shop, maybe you haven't run into any yet, but that doesn't mean they're not out there, especially if they've been sitting for awhile. How about a completely built up and virtually new Gunnar Crosshairs for $350? Yes, I know I'll get questions about that one, but all completely legit.

[msl819]

I have always wondered, or suspected, this happens with eBay, good to know how to look for it. Now all I do is enter the max I am willing to pay and let the auction run its course. I have known too many folk who were scammed on a second chance offer so I decline those. However, very seldom do I buy through eBay anymore

[nmrt]

Ahh..I see that the "% bid" on a bidder's history for a particular seller is only for 30 days. Well, then, this definitely complicates matters. So, it will be harder to say that the bidder is a shill bidder even though 100% of his activity is with a particular seller. It could just have been that he placed only one bid with any seller in the past 30 days.

So, why does ebay only use the last 30 days?

Regardless, this has been my new year's resolution -- I really do feel scammed by ebay and paypal. I'd rather sell goodies at CL or here even if i have to sell them cheaper.

[mistermo]

I really do feel scammed by ebay and paypal. I'd rather sell goodies at CL or here even if i have to sell them cheaper.

ebay owns part of craigslist and is seeking to limit the ability to use craigslist nationally (or internationally) for purchasing.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/12/08/an-edge-for-ebay-in-its-dispute-with-craigslist/

[19wisconsin64]

i've had very good luck selling items and buying items on ebay. i'm not concerned about any shill bidding, it just doesn't matter, i know the price i will pay as a maximum and bid in the last few seconds....all in!

i mostly sell things with a slightly high buy it now price..ebay and paypal in total take about 15% or more, and this has to be factored in.

ebay, by far, is the easiest and safest way to buy and sell many things....it has the most number of people looking at it for used items.

love it. hate the 15% plus you pay when you sell, but it works!

just my 2 cents

[monkeybanana86]

i've had very good luck selling items and buying items on ebay. i'm not concerned about any shill bidding, it just doesn't matter, i know the price i will pay as a maximum and bid in the last few seconds....all in!

i mostly sell things with a slightly high buy it now price..ebay and paypal in total take about 15% or more, and this has to be factored in.

ebay, by far, is the easiest and safest way to buy and sell many things....it has the most number of people looking at it for used items.

love it. hate the 15% plus you pay when you sell, but it works!

just my 2 cents

I too buy a lot from ebay using the "but it now" option and have never had a problem with that.
Unfortunately selling is different story for me. For really popular items like my iPhone 4 I learned a lot about the scamming game. I was constantly canceling bids from folks with low to no feedback who were either trying to inflate my auction so that they could sell their own items or win it to screw me with an "eCheck" which is what happened. The winner who's bid I wasn't fast enough to cancel was using two addresses in the states and THREE names (one for the ebay account -Natalie Portier, one for the physical address, and a last one for their e-mail account who was male!) and finally told me they lived in "Europe." I ended up posting the phone for $200 bucks on craigslist at night and sold it first thing next morning. I'm only selling things like bike parts in the future. What a headache and waste of time.

[ctam]

Sometimes I put in multiple bids (sometimes as high as 25 bids) to give the illusion that I'm in cahoots with the seller. My hope is that it will drive away 1 or 2 bidders who might otherwise stick around to the end. As soon as a person outbids me I quickly toss in more bids....of course this only works if the price doesn't get bid up too quickly. Why not use the disguise of shill bidding to your advantage?

[19wisconsin64]

buying and selling complex high-demand items like smart phones is tough, and there are lots of scammers for iPhones out there.

still, i sold my girlfriends iphone, and bought my own fancy samsung galaxy s3 in the last few weeks, no problems.

[changes2008]

Usually the person who is artificially driving up their price is usually going to bid close to the max amount they'd like to receive and once another person surpasses that it's all good. Possible reasons someone would want to do this: get what they feel the item is worth and/or to offset fees that are placed upon 'buy it now' and 'reserve' prices. The fees that are associated with these types of auctions are an increased percentage on final price or initial fees.

Final value fee = 9% of the total amount of the sale; Maximum fee is $250.
However, there is a graduated scale that is based on total amount of the sale. The fee is up to 11% on auctions below a certain threshold. The maximum fee $54 for the first $1,000 and 2% of anything over the first grand. Reserve fee = an additional fee of 2% of the 'buy it now' price; Maximum fee $50.

Shill bidding becomes frustrating especially if what you're looking at is going to be a good deal. The caveat being, no one else bids on this! Murphy's law dictates this is a fallacy.

[cnighbor1]

ebay gets it cut on items sold so seller is out some % of sale price

[nrs5000]

Does eBay get a cut if the sale falls through when the shill obviously backs out?

[monkeybanana86]

Does eBay get a cut if the sale falls through when the shill obviously backs out?

I went through something similar to this. Basically as the seller you need to initiate the canceling of the auction and the buyer has 7 days to accept (if they don't reply they automatically accept). Even if they were the ones who backed out if something went sour between communication they can hit "decline" to screw you and you have to pay the fee. Luckily my buyer accepted. Oh and as a seller you can't leave negative feedback!

edit: I think if they don't pay after a certain amount of time the seller is not responsible or the fees.

[jpw]

was the winning bid a shill bid? wait to see if there's feedback given by the 'buyer' on the 'sale'. no feedback? no sale? if it's a high value purchase feedback is normally given.

i'm in the feedback waiting stage myself on a high value ebay 'sale' from last month. it's been four weeks since the purchase and still no feedback. i'm beginning to wonder.

[nmrt]

this video talks about what i am saying. Although, despite the author of the video saying that what he's discovered is clearly shill bidding, i tend to disagree. it LOOKS like shill bidding is going on but it does not prove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JytGHcvwVxE

Also, i do understand what some people are saying -- just think of the max price you're willing to pay for an item and use a snipe program. Well, if you do that and you win the item (and shill bidding occurred during the auction) you ended up paying more than the market value simply because the item's price was driven up by shill bidding. And i think this is not what a live auction should be. An item should sell for what the market value for it is. And not by raising it's value artificially by the seller through shill bidding.

I do hope that I am not getting on anyone's nerves by stating my opinion. This is what I feel, and I am expressing my views on a public forum. So, if any of you disagree with me, please do not take it personally.

[Jeff N.]

Shill bidding is having someone you know personally bid on your item, even if they have no intention of buying in the end. Difficult to tell when that happens, but I'm sure it does. Jeff N.