Tubulars, Or Just Feels Like Tubulars?

[cachagua]

After reading some of the discussion in other threads from people who ride sew-ups, I was invited to buy some HED Belgium C2 clincher rims. Their advertising says they "ride like tubulars", and reviews by people who have ridden them say, yep, they do.

Interesting claim... I could believe that the difference between sew-ups and clinchers is fairly small, even that it's nearly imperceptible, but is it so slight that a different rim could make as big a difference?

So: is there anybody here who rides both sew-ups and clinchers, and has used wheels built with these rims? What were your impressions? What tires did you have on them? What conditions were you riding in?

[giverdada]

i've posted about this before, but the short answer to your question is: yes, wide rims ride, for me, like tubulars.

it's not the absolute butter feel of tubulars that i had, but it's so damn close i would be hard pressed to tell which wheels were which in a blind test, for sure. the width of the rim gives the tire a different profile and significantly more air volume, both things that contribute to a much smoother and more stable ride. my real test is chattery roads and hard descending through turns. the wide rims do it just like tubies. i've been railing turns much harder than usual, or ever, really, on my wide rim clinchers and they are a blast. i have used all kinds of tires, all of which improved in 'feel' on the wide rims, but my go-to are bontrager hardcases when flats are an absolute no-no, and pro race 4 when i just want to go hard and fast and can deal with flats (not many, but i've never flatted a hardcase, ever...). oh, and the heavier rim/wheel with the wide clincher meant that spin up wasn't as ridiculously fast as the tubulars (mainly just for the rear wheel), but descending stability was improved ten-fold (mainly for the front wheel - a little more weight in the rim kept things straight and good).

my rims are A23s; my lady's are Hed C2s. all good stuff really.

[JStonebarger]

Does cyclocross count? (23mm rims + 32mm tires = smooth ride + good traction at 22-28psi.)

[Tommasini53]

I've riden tublars of all range of quality. I now ride clinchers. And I generally agree with HED's statement.

The wide rims that Campy and HED use do provided an improved ride over the traditional 19mm -20mm clincher rims. Latex tubes in clinchers also offer an improvemnt. Tubeless offer even a further ride improvement.

I'm using tubelss clinchers on campy and hed wheels, and i believe the ride is comparable to a mid-quality tublar.

[ultraman6970]

Hmmm interesting claim, my problem with that is that tubular and a clincher as a tire are totally different things so is hard to figure it out why they are claiming this.

(im assuming a 23 mm clincher in those wider rims ok?) My best guess is that maybe since the rim is wider the side walls of the clincher get stiffer because since it has to go wider the sides will go not that tall or what is the same... the tire gets closer to the rim like a sport wheel car then the ride is not so bumpy/cushionny and maybe that's why they ride close to a tubular but who knows. If anybody in the area has a set to borrow me like for an hour to test would be cool.

Even tufo tubular clinchers dont ride like tubulars, maybe in the wider rim they will excel but in regular 23 mm clincher rims they do just ok.

[oldpotatoe]

After reading some of the discussion in other threads from people who ride sew-ups, I was invited to buy some HED Belgium C2 clincher rims. Their advertising says they "ride like tubulars", and reviews by people who have ridden them say, yep, they do.

Interesting claim... I could believe that the difference between sew-ups and clinchers is fairly small, even that it's nearly imperceptible, but is it so slight that a different rim could make as big a difference?

So: is there anybody here who rides both sew-ups and clinchers, and has used wheels built with these rims? What were your impressions? What tires did you have on them? What conditions were you riding in?

My opinion is that wide rims with wider tires and less pressure 'approach' the ride qualities of a Conti Sprinter tubular.

I think a high thread count, cotton tubular, like Veloflex, Clement or Vittoria offer a 'better' ride in terms of cornering, comfort and safety.

IMHO-of course. 'Ride quality' is 100% subjective.

[Bkat]

+1. Wide rims. Latex tubes. High quality tires. 99% of the ride quality of sew-ups.

[FlashUNC]

My opinion is that wide rims with wider tires and less pressure 'approach' the ride qualities of a Conti Sprinter tubular.

I think a high thread count, cotton tubular, like Veloflex, Clement or Vittoria offer a 'better' ride in terms of cornering, comfort and safety.

IMHO-of course. 'Ride quality' is 100% subjective.

I'd agree. They do a pretty good job of mimicking tubulars. Still not quite the real thing though.

[lhuerta]

The wide rims that Campy and HED use do provided an improved ride over the traditional 19mm -20mm clincher rims.

...Campagnolo does not offer any wide rim options in their wheel line up?
All Campagnolo rims are 20 or 20.5mm wide, which does not equate with the HED C2 23mm rims.

Lou

[Joachim]

Closer than with 19mm clinchers rims, but still not the same. I have both H+son Archetypes (23mm clinchers) and Ambrosio Nemesis (tubulars) which I swop back and forth on the same bike. I will be able to tell the difference blindfolded.

[djg21]

After reading some of the discussion in other threads from people who ride sew-ups, I was invited to buy some HED Belgium C2 clincher rims. Their advertising says they "ride like tubulars", and reviews by people who have ridden them say, yep, they do.

Interesting claim... I could believe that the difference between sew-ups and clinchers is fairly small, even that it's nearly imperceptible, but is it so slight that a different rim could make as big a difference?

So: is there anybody here who rides both sew-ups and clinchers, and has used wheels built with these rims? What were your impressions? What tires did you have on them? What conditions were you riding in?

I use the Belgium C2 clinchers with 25c Conti GP4000s tires and latex tubes and they do feel supple, more like tubulars than any clinchers I have ever ridden, but not quite to the level of a Vittoria racing tubular. The improvement from the rim was noticeable, especially with 25c tires (always used 23c before). IMO, the latex tubes make a bigger difference. They are really good rims however. Very durable.

[Bkat]

Closer than with 19mm clinchers rims, but still not the same. I have both H+son Archetypes (23mm clinchers) and Ambrosio Nemesis (tubulars) which I swop back and forth on the same bike. I will be able to tell the difference blindfolded.

Agreed. But for me, flatting out on sew-ups, especially when the weather is less than ideal, just isn't worth the extra 1% in ride quality. But my tires tend to be magnets for glass shards, so what do I know!

[Joachim]

And that is why I ride my Archetypes in bad weather.

[Bkat]

Of course, I probably could be convinced to give sew-ups another try. ;)

[pistolpete]

Interesting claim - I rode with a fellow last Saturday who swore by the wider rims. I haven't ridden clinchers in quite some time but can't imagine the ride quality being comparable. I would imagine the ride would be much smoother but certainly not close to tubies.

[cachagua]

Thanks all for the info. I'm undecided between the HEDs and the H+Sons... it'll probably boil down to who can sell me silver ones. And price, a little.

(Any of you know where to get silver, please give me a tip)

But, latex tubes, huh? I wouldn't have thought they make a huge difference: they're a little more flexible than a big meaty butyl tube, but what you have to "flex" as the tire rolls along is overwhelmingly the air, my thinking runs -- the tire and tube seem like they'd be a very small fraction of the total.

But you guys say ride 'em. And I believe everything I read here! So I will give them a try.

Nothing helps winter go by better than fantasizing about new bike stuff...

[gospastic]

I ride clinchers for training and to me they actually feel "faster" when pumped to the same pressure as my race tubs. My race tubs are so soft that they feel slower. It's probably all in my head though.

[Grant McLean]

...Campagnolo does not offer any wide rim options in their wheel line up?
All Campagnolo rims are 20 or 20.5mm wide, which does not equate with the HED C2 23mm rims.

Lou

Campagnolo made several models of 22mm wide rims in the past.

http://www.campyonly.com/images/catalogs/1987/rims0008.jpg

-g

[ultraman6970]

Gospastice, It depends of the tubulars... remember zillion of years ago I spent a lot in a set of clement zeta to race in the track. Had to switch them for continentals because the way were built no matter how much air I put to them they were always cushy. Tried years after a Zeta 130 grams made for the track and was totally different, super fast mofo.

[gospastic]

It's weird feeling to be running a tire at 110 psi and feel so soft. Sometimes I have to doublecheck that it's not going flat.

[christian]

Campagnolo made several models of 22mm wide rims in the past.Haha, I love this. I thought "Omega XL Strada" myself, but I just knew someone else would be pedantic enough to post. Catalogue pic takes it over the top. Well done!

[aoe]

2012 HED C2 Clinchers, WI hubs on Vittoria Open Corsa SC's/latex tubes vs Ambrosio Nemesis with CK R45 on FMB PR 25's. Same number of holes and similar pressures; it's not even close - the tubulars ride much smoother and corner better. I can go much lower in pressures with my tubies too. I weigh 165lbs. By no means is this scientific but very noticeable difference IMO so take it for what it's worth.

Cheers

[lhuerta]

Campagnolo made several models of 22mm wide rims in the past.

http://www.campyonly.com/images/catalogs/1987/rims0008.jpg

-g

Indeed, good catch!

Campagnolo produced the original wide rims but they have been out of production for more then 20 years now and VERY hard to find...the wide XL clinchers were last listed in the 1993 catalog. I still regret the day I sold my Delta Strada XL Chromium wheels with C-Record sheriff star hubs...the best rims ever (last listed in 1991 catalog).

I just assumed OP was referring to newer rims linked to the latest craze of wide rims.

Lou

[JStonebarger]

I haven't done this experiment on the road, because I gave up on road tubulars long ago. In cyclocross, however, the comparison of rims is useless if a couple other key factors aren't considered. TPI is crucial to the feel of a tire; a cheap, stiff tire will not be supple regardless of the rim. Also, latex tubes make a supple tire even more so, and make low pressures possible. (Probably more essential to safely running low 20s psi than the rim itself.)

[cachagua]

*snip*

[joosttx]

Challange Paris Roubaix 28mm clincher ride similar to tubulars. It the clincher which I think that feels most like a tubular.

[carpediemracing]

I think tires make a difference. I have the HED clinchers (factory wheels, Bastognes) and various tubulars including HED Stingers, regular width tubulars, etc.

The thing is that a nice riding clincher has not been as durable for me as a nice riding tubular. The last time I spent coin on nice clinchers I cut four tires in less than two weeks, and I didn't ride any differently than I normally do.

For tubulars my favorite are Vittoria Evo CXs. I happen to run 23mm Bontragers right now, their top end tire, to support the shop that supports the club.

I've thought I didn't pump up my CXs when I got on them because they felt so soft, and they were at 120 psi.

I've never felt that way with clinchers.

Having said that I feel more comfortable riding the HED clinchers if I am super pressed and can't pump up the tires, like the group ride is rolling out as we pull up in the car. I've ridden with 55-60 psi in the tires and they've been okay. Not tubular-like but remember I tend to have more of a training tire - Maxxis Refuse and Michelin Krylions were the last two models I liked and rode a lot, both in 700x23, both on the HEDs, the Krylions also on narrow/regular rims.

[redir]

Haha, I love this. I thought "Omega XL Strada" myself, but I just knew someone else would be pedantic enough to post. Catalogue pic takes it over the top. Well done!

I've got a set of Omega Strada, Strada Hardox, and Barcelona 92 and they are all wide. I like to run Veloflex Criteriums on those and while I've never tried HED clinchers I would bet the farm they don't ride like my Campy wheels with good tubulars on them.

[oldpotatoe]

I've got a set of Omega Strada, Strada Hardox, and Barcelona 92 and they are all wide. I like to run Veloflex Criteriums on those and while I've never tried HED clinchers I would bet the farm they don't ride like my Campy wheels with good tubulars on them.

And you would still have your farm after that bet.

[Mark McM]

After reading some of the discussion in other threads from people who ride sew-ups, I was invited to buy some HED Belgium C2 clincher rims. Their advertising says they "ride like tubulars", and reviews by people who have ridden them say, yep, they do.

Interesting claim... I could believe that the difference between sew-ups and clinchers is fairly small, even that it's nearly imperceptible, but is it so slight that a different rim could make as big a difference?

So: is there anybody here who rides both sew-ups and clinchers, and has used wheels built with these rims? What were your impressions? What tires did you have on them? What conditions were you riding in?

This makes one wonder if the main difference in the feel between tubulars and clinchers is the width of the rim - and if clinchers have historically been mounted on rims narrower than rider thought they were.

Clincher rims are actually quite a bit narrower than many assume that they are. For example, a Mavic Open is often assumed to be about 20mm wide, but according to Mavic they are actually 15mm wide (Mavic lists the size of the Open Pro as: 'ETRTO compatible size: 622 x 15')
- and at least it is from the standpoint of the tire mounting, they are that narrow.

A clincher tire interfaces to the rim at the 'hook' inside of the sidewall, so the tire mounting width is the space between the inner edges of the rim hooks. In the case of the Mavic Open Pro, that width is 15mm. In contrast, a tubular tire mounts to almost the entire width of the rim's tire bed. The Mavic Open Pro's tubular sister rim is the Reflex, which has tire bed about 18mm wide, which gives a tire mounting width about 20% wider.

HED's C2 clincher rim has an inner rim width of about 18mm - which provides just about the same tire mounting width as a "traditional" width tubular rim. Some are reporting that the tire ride quality is similar to tubulars. So maybe it isn't really about the method that the tire is attached to the rim (bead clinch vs. glue), but instead about the tire mounting width.

[Mark McM]

Hmmm interesting claim, my problem with that is that tubular and a clincher as a tire are totally different things so is hard to figure it out why they are claiming this.

How are tubulars and clinchers totally different things? Do they not use the same casing fabric, the same sidewalls, the same tread and tread belting, and often the same inner tube? Much of tire's performance is at the tire contact patch, and aren't these two tires the same here?

The major difference is how the tires attach to the rim. No doubt this influences the dynamics at the rim/tire joint, but is it enough to say that they are "totally different things?"