was looking @ loctite's bike, and have a few thoughts why the legend is no race bike

[Kurt]

First off super impressed if you were a competitive 2 @ 185 and that is one smoking good looking bike – your bike and the ones that serotta uses as pin-up bikes are great examples of balance and good proportion. Nice being young isn’t it.

The frame and fork totals over 4k and unless someone gets a screaming deal on one it does not make any financial sense to race it. In OS tubing at least it makes not only a heavy frame but a heavy feeling frame – looking at the zipps on the frame, unless they are just for looks –they are mostly good for crits and I can’t think of a worse match for explosive launches out of corners than a legend or something like it. In racing there is a ton of side to side motion and that is where a light, nimble frame shines.

I have a 58 3-degree all OS except the ti seat stay legend and it’s the perfect cruising machine, totally comfortable – I do super fast club rides and actually like the lack of road feel as it nicely compliments my other nightmare of a bike. I could not imagine grabbing it verses my optimo for a race or a day in the hills. Any bike that you race is a race bike – the reason you will never see a legend raced in a competitive situation is price and weight. If you or anyone you know of paid retail for the frame and got podium in a cat3 or better race I take back everything I said. ;)

[93legendti]

So your logic must mean that the Ottrott is also not a race bike?


http://www.kgsncycling.com/equipment.html

[Kurt]

So your logic must mean that the Ottrott is also not a race bike?


http://www.kgsncycling.com/equipment.html

Anything that is raced is a race bike, but unless something is acquired pretty darn cheap or free I can't see it being used when there are solutions for a quarter of the price. I have been on an Ottrott and it’s lighter and certainly feels lighter in the right spot – nice frame. If I was going to go the blended tubing route it would be a 613, my cost is $ 700 for the single carbon tube version with a fork and is light feeling beyond belief.

[loctite]

:argue:
First off super impressed if you were a competitive 2 @ 185 and that is one smoking good looking bike – your bike and the ones that serotta uses as pin-up bikes are great examples of balance and good proportion. Nice being young isn’t it.

Is that a "fat" joke? ;) Im 6'3". And Thanks.

The frame and fork totals over 4k and unless someone gets a screaming deal on one it does not make any financial sense to race it.

I work for one of the top 5 Serotta dealers in the world, got a SCREAMIN deal. ;)

In OS tubing at least it makes not only a heavy frame but a heavy feeling frame

As pictured its 16.7 pounds.

looking at the zipps on the frame, unless they are just for looks –they are mostly good for crits

I have raced on allot of whhels, the 404's are the most versatile wheels i have raced, they are great for crits, rr and stage racing. Look at what CSC uses in 85% of races.

I can’t think of a worse match for explosive launches out of corners than a legend or something like it. In racing there is a ton of side to side motion and that is where a light, nimble frame shines

True, the Legend ST is not the fastest off the line, or out of a corner. But its not lacking, The ST keeps the rear wheel on the ground and tracking like an arrow. The bike is extreamly nimble, IMHO much lighter or more nimble is just overly flexy.

If you or anyone you know of paid retail for the frame and got podium in a cat3 or better race I take back everything I said

Didnt race much this year but best result so far on the Legend: Jamestown Classic RI road race, Pro 1,2, 10-10-05, I was 19th in a field of 60+

Also,

The Sierra Nevada Kodak boys seem to be doing just fine!

Thanks for your imput, but there is a reason i pick this over my other bikes to race. In a race of attrition, (all of them for me in the last 7 years) the Legend out performs all of them.

[loctite]

Anything that is raced is a race bike, but unless something is acquired pretty darn cheap or free I can't see it being used when there are solutions for a quarter of the price. I have been on an Ottrott and it’s lighter and certainly feels lighter in the right spot – nice frame. If I was going to go the blended tubing route it would be a 613, my cost is $ 700 for the single carbon tube version with a fork and is light feeling beyond belief.

:argue:
How about dudes that race their own $30,000+ motercycles?

[coylifut]

it's posts like this that will eventually get the fun place we call the forum closed down. I don't think there's a coincidence that it was started on a Friday night. At best, it's in bad taste, at worst it's a run at Serotta in their own home.

troll

[jerk]

the legend ti is a light enough frame to make a race bike. loctite's bike is not a proper race bike because the front center is much too long, especially for the head angle and fork rake combo....the seat is too far forward over the bottom bracket and the stem is way too short for anyone his size. a legend is a great bike and as the jerk has said before, a great privateer race bike....you can train on it everyday, you won't break it if you crash it, it's reasonably light and as stiff as you need it to be.

the issue with that bike is yet again, a fitter/rider/dude/guy rather than a bike designer designing the geometry of the bike. but that's cool, if it works for him high fives all around...there's more to a bike racer than a bike, and many prestigous races have been won on mediocre equipment and on poorly designed bicycles.

but what does the jerk know, he just got told by a former national champion that he had to lower the seat on his cross bike and rotate the bars back so it looks like the state took his driver's license away....he's going to listen though. then at least he has someone to blame when he doens't reach his goal of finishing second to last tomorrow.

jerk

[Fixed]

bro I know Fla. is not like where you live but a lot of cats score on worse bikes than that around here in pro 1/2 as well as 3's the masters always have bikes like that it least a couple in there I'm not a zipp fan but a lot of dudes use em. and everything elese weight is not that big a deal here i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[loctite]

it's posts like this that will eventually get the fun place we call the forum closed down. I don't think there's a coincidence that it was started on a Friday night. At best, it's in bad taste, at worst it's a run at Serotta in their own home.

troll

How is it in bad taste? He certainly has a right to his opinion...

[jerk]

How is it in bad taste? He certainly has a right to his opinion...


his opinion is pretty dumb. pascal richard anyone?

jerk

[loctite]

the legend ti is a light enough frame to make a race bike. loctite's bike is not a proper race bike because the front center is much too long, especially for the head angle and fork rake combo....the seat is too far forward over the bottom bracket and the stem is way too short for anyone his size.

jerk

Truly im not trying to argue, im intrested in your reasons why you make these statements? Particularly how the heck do you know the HA and fork rake? The stem is 120 and gives me proper reach, whay would i want it longer. And how do you know or why do you think the seat is to far forward? Really im intrested in learning your ideas, not statring something.

And keep that liquor cycle on the sidewalk dude!

(FYI I designed tha frame, with a REAL reputible frame designer looking over my shoulder/giving suggestions)

Thanks!

[Litespeeder]

So your logic must mean that the Ottrott is also not a race bike?


http://www.kgsncycling.com/equipment.html

Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames. IMO that’s a good thing but they still have a way to go before they can make the claim that they build racing bikes. Serotta is playing a risky game here. Their customer base has for the most part been middle aged cyclists who yearn for the days of steel frames and who don't place a great deal of value in frame weight and aggressive frame geometries.

Serotta is trying to appeal to the racing crowd. IMO they will have some level of success with racers. But they will need to make products that will have the same appeal to racers as their current products do with road sport enthusiasts. Not an easy thing to do.


:bike:

[coylifut]

How is it in bad taste? He certainly has a right to his opinion...

we've been down this road before and it' my opinion that the post violates more than one of the below as described in the user agreement.


For retailers and manufacturers to advertise their products and services.
For ‘lurkers’, ‘trolls’, ‘joes’, etc. who wish to harass, threaten, anger, flame, etc. forum members.
For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others away from Serotta products.

it's my opinion (and I doubt that James would disagree) that he's taking a run at you and your Serotta. He's discrediting the Legend ST as a race bike. I don't know how many people work at Serotta, but I bet all of them would take it personally.

[Fixed]

bro what do the old posties ride? cheers :beer:

[loctite]

we've been down this road before and it' my opinion that the post violates more than one of the below as described in the user agreement.


For retailers and manufacturers to advertise their products and services.
For ‘lurkers’, ‘trolls’, ‘joes’, etc. who wish to harass, threaten, anger, flame, etc. forum members.
For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others away from Serotta products.

it's my opinion (and I doubt that James would disagree) that he's taking a run at you and your Serotta. He's discrediting the Legend ST as a race bike. I don't know how many people work at Serotta, but I bet all of them would take it personally.

Oh im not that hurt, and its my bike. He was just saying he wouldnt race it. But im with you that he is full of poo! :D

[loctite]

bro what do the old posties ride? cheers :beer:

Ha, i new it was only a matter of time before that came up!

S-E-R-O-T-T-A

cheers to you to! :beer:

[jerk]

Truly im not trying to argue, im intrested in your reasons why you make these statements? Particularly how the heck do you know the HA and fork rake? The stem is 120 and gives me proper reach, whay would i want it longer. And how do you know or why do you think the seat is to far forward? Really im intrested in learning your ideas, not statring something.

And keep that liquor cycle on the sidewalk dude!

(FYI I designed tha frame, with a REAL reputible frame designer looking over my shoulder/giving suggestions)

Thanks!

loc-
the jerk should have put the word "traditional" in front race bike. you race it, it's a race bike. the jerk knows what the head angle within a few minutes and what the fork rake is by looking at the thing..... to the jerk, it has an unreasonably long front center. the jerk does assume that the reach and drop is right for you, why else would you use it? nonetheless, possibly an even better handling bike could have been achieved had you tucked in the front wheel a bit, shortening the top tube a bit and using a longer stem. also, the jerk can't imagine anyone tolerating the ride of a bicycle with your arse right over the bb like that....push that saddle back!

(i know thw cross bike is getting weirder and weirder every day. we'll see how the jerk does tomorrow. he's off to bed now.)

jerk

[chrisroph]

My legend is my race bike, before an al merckx, a carbon look and a bunch of other great bikes. It stiff enough, light enough, tough enough and very balanced. I'm not of afraid of hurting it in a crash, I'm afraid of hurting my body. It lets me be as good as I can be on any given day. I got it used and cheap. The seat is far enough back and the stem is a 13 and pretty low. If I get my butt kicked, I can tell you with certainty that it's not because of the bike. Legends are great race bikes.

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=chrisroph If I get my butt kicked, I can tell you with certainty that it's not because of the bike. Legends are great race bikes.[/QUOTE]bro I think that's the case of most riders on most bikes i.m.h.o. :beer: cheers

[chrisroph]

For sure fixed.

[William]

This may sound old & cliched....but still very true:

It's the motor man, it's the motor.


William :beer:

[vaxn8r]

Jerk, since you're on a roll with advice on racing bikes...curious what you think of my Legend. Never raced it yet but might. Race worthy? (sounds like "sponge worthy") Blast away.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=11836

As for Loctite's Legend, I'm not near sophisticated enough to pick his bike apart. It looks good to me. After about 600 miles on my new Legend I don't think it would hold me back in a race. Not quite as stiff as my Calfee and definitely not as stiff as my Cannondale but it's in the ballpark. It gives a great feeling of confidence in the corners. With my Reynolds it'd weigh in at 16 1/4 lbs.

[Brian Smith]

Is there a performance metric for alignment?
Is there one for actually being true to specification?
Is there one for material accuracy, for strength/crash survivability?
Does anyone think that these things:
either A) don't matter for racing
or B) are equally available with inexpensive bikes as with better bikes?

I think that since people who race are marketed by advertisements claiming performane based on "Stiffness" x hype / weight x price, racers end up riding hyped cheap "stiff" frames.

Hooey.

There are more things besides weight, "stiffness," and material hype that add value to a bike, ANY bike, and ESPECIALLY a race bike. On top of every frame performance metric is what is actually on top of the bike - the rider, and a good rider can get by with less bike than a soft rider, but just because a shop or a company sells a bunch of Legend STs in a "non-racing" configuration to non-racers doesn't make the Legend ST not a race bike. No more does the fact that offshore X sells tons of bargain frames to racers make the Hotshot SL necessarily a race bike. The Legend ST is a QUALITY bike, and believe it or not, QUALITY has pragmatic value too. Even for a racer.

This is coming from a person who's ridden a bunch of mediocre stuff and also a bunch of junk. I even have a taste for it. I like junk fine, ask anyone nearby rolling their eyes as they mentally recount what they've seen me on. :rolleyes: I make it work for me. I usually can't afford nice equipment.

I haven't seen him ride, maybe Kurt has a lot of game and can make cheaper stuff work for him. Spending 1/4 the cost may net him a solution to what he needs. That doesn't make the Legend ST not a race bike. His choice cost less but is not therefore somehow a better race bike. One of our somewhat recent recruits at Serotta sold his '05 Cannondale the first week he worked in alignment and went through half the summer waiting to get his CIII. He's glad he did. Did he ever previously notice that his 'dale was so far out? No. He's a meticulous mechanic coming to Serotta with years of shop experience, and an excellent agressive rider. A value shopper to boot. OK, he's flat out cheap. Anyway, the point of it all is that there is something there in a Legend ST for your money that isn't talked about in ad copy in race rags, or elsewhere for that matter.

[Ginger]

"Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames."
Hmmm...Serotta's been building racing frames for a very long time. Do a check on your history before you post silly stuff like that.


We have a cat 1 in our club who seems to hit the podium on a regular basis on his Legend. (I'm not sure if that's an age group thing...but first is podium isn't it?)




I guess if someone wanted to race overpriced cheap titanium, they'd race a litespeed. :p (did I just break forum rules? I don't think so)

James should just put a lock on the forum for Friday evening...


Time to close the thread.

[Brian Smith]

Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames. IMO that’s a good thing but they still have a way to go before they can make the claim that they build racing bikes. Serotta is playing a risky game here. Their customer base has for the most part been middle aged cyclists who yearn for the days of steel frames and who don't place a great deal of value in frame weight and aggressive frame geometries.



Just to be clear in case anyone doesn't know: I work at Serotta.
Kurt calling the Legend ST not a race bike wasn't offensive to me.
This one is closer to offensive.
Litespeeder is off base with each of those sentences.
I don't know where he's getting any of that information, but the proliferation of misinformation is distasteful, if not offensive. Oh well, freedom of speech is a great thing.

Litespeeder - sorry bro - you've somehow gotten it all wrong.

[93legendti]

Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames. IMO that’s a good thing but they still have a way to go before they can make the claim that they build racing bikes. Serotta is playing a risky game here. Their customer base has for the most part been middle aged cyclists who yearn for the days of steel frames and who don't place a great deal of value in frame weight and aggressive frame geometries.

Serotta is trying to appeal to the racing crowd. IMO they will have some level of success with racers. But they will need to make products that will have the same appeal to racers as their current products do with road sport enthusiasts. Not an easy thing to do.


:bike:

As the jerk said..."Pascal Richard?" You know, the 1996 Olympics Men's Road Race Gold Medal winner. He was on what? A Serotta Legend, which I think he bought with his own money. What did 7-11 race on? Re-badged Serottas.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=11719&highlight=pascal+richard

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10402&highlight=pascal+richard

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=241&highlight=pascal+richard

[shaq-d]

http://images.art.com/images/-/Unknown/Presse-E-Sports---The-Incomparable-Eddy-Merckx--C10044915.jpeg

the picture says it all.

sd

[Climb01742]

i think serotta and car companies like porsche and bmw are sorta in the same boat:

a lot of different people own their products. which they use a lot of different ways. confusing the driver for the machine obscures what the machine is capable of.

the right porsche in the right hands can blow the doors off of most anything. i bet the same is true for most any serotta.

[JStonebarger]

I've got one of the old re-badged 7-11 Serottas, with original campy super-record kit. It's an incredible ride.

Obviously Serotta knew how to build a race bike way back then. I doubt they've forgotten much since.

[divve]

It sounds more like jerk is talking about geo and resulting set-up. When you compare the frames below, it should be obvious which one looks more like a "race" bike.

BTW, the CAAD7 in my opinion feels rather dead. The frame doesn't work with you. It just flexes and returns to its original shape without any sense of spring or activeness.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6994&stc=1

[jeffg]

I agree with coylift that this is the type of thing that we, as a community, should not afford ourselves, even if Serotta is generous enough to permit it.

[loctite]

:rolleyes: Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames. IMO that’s a good thing but they still have a way to go before they can make the claim that they build racing bikes. Serotta is playing a risky game here. Their customer base has for the most part been middle aged cyclists who yearn for the days of steel frames and who don't place a great deal of value in frame weight and aggressive frame geometries.

Serotta is trying to appeal to the racing crowd. IMO they will have some level of success with racers. But they will need to make products that will have the same appeal to racers as their current products do with road sport enthusiasts. Not an easy thing to do.


:bike:

Dude, are you nuts? You obviously know nothing about Serotta, its cutomers, or bikes. Thats like saying BMW needs to work on marketing cars to guys who like to drive fast. You should know what you are talking about before you make silly posts like that, IMHO!!

[Dr. Doofus]

yawn


but check out eddy's bike...dig the drop from his saddle to his drops...remember that his bars have 2cm more drop to them...so in your mind lower the tops of his bars by 3cm (and rotate them up a bit), give him 4cm more post showing (actually 5-6 or so, cause the saddle would be thinner), drop the TT by 3-4cm (integrated HS and OS tubes)...and you'd have...a modern race bike


where yer butt and yer hands are shouldn't be any different than where the butts and hands of racers have been since eddy's day...and unless you want a bike that steers like a pricey dumptruck you'll have a setback post and a long stem (unless you're brad mcgee or the doof and have a zero setback post and a long stem because that looks less dorky than having your saddle all the way forward on the rails on a setback post)


doof just popped a grand on an offshore travesty because he's cheap and can't spring for a serotta again (his csi had a 62.5 f-c on a 58cm bike, which was terminally stupid...but the csi was the best constructed bike he will ever ever own and maybe one day he'll be able to pop for a bike that well constructed that doesn't steer like a bus), but even he knows ben serotta and kelly bedford know how to make a race bike

this is stupid and why did this monkey contribute?

[saab2000]

I don't know as much about geometry as the jerk, but I do know that if Mr. Loctite likes his bike as a race bike then it is good. The original post was trolling. Jerk's post was not bad, just his opinion. But the original post here was tolling and not constructive.

The guy clearly didn't get to be a 2 by sitting on his butt. And if he can afford a Legend he can afford anything. The fact that he chose a Legend says something to me.

Anyway, we all know it is the motor, not the motor's mount. So there.

[andy mac]

i bet the price point skews the frames they build.

i read that 20 year old craig lewis, touted by some as the next lance, makes $800 a month riding for TIAA-CREF...

By the time most of us can afford a serotta it’s 20 years too late to think about racing in europe. So they build quite a few frames for older desk jockeys who get out when they can escape work and the family.

Speaking of work, it’s Saturday and off I head to the office…

[Redturbo]

Any bike I'm racing on is a race bike. duh! :beer:

turbo

[Argos]

His weight argument is wrong. His stiffness argument is wrong, his handling argument is wrong. His history based argument is wrong.

It comes down to this:

The frame and fork totals over 4k and unless someone gets a screaming deal on one it does not make any financial sense to race it.

He can't afford to, so it does not make sense. That argument is wrong too.

[Argos]

Even better, my cousin is a Cat 3 in NYC. Races on a traditional rear Legend. Paid retail, wins races.

Kurt, take it back.

Any bike that you race is a race bike – the reason you will never see a legend raced in a competitive situation is price and weight. If you or anyone you know of paid retail for the frame and got podium in a cat3 or better race I take back everything I said.

[csm]

anyway, it's ti. you'd have to have a HUGE shunt to damage the frame. sure the components and fork might get damaged; but wouldn't that happen regardless of the frame? even if you had one of those russian litespeeds that they stamp out of lead and paint it to look like ti?

[Argos]

Aside from winning the Olympics in the 90's, What bike won the Giro in '88? I can't for the life of me think of the name of that bike..... Anyone, anyone? :rolleyes:

[Argos]

Oh, wait, here is another one.....

Davis Phinney won a dump load of races riding a........

[Argos]

The 1984 Olympic team rode (no pun intended) to success on custom made........

[ergott]

The 1984 Olympic team rode (no pun intended) to success on custom made........

Hey Argos, Are you trying to make a point? :D

[Argos]

You got me! :rolleyes:

[loctite]

[QUOTE=divve]It sounds more like jerk is talking about geo and resulting set-up. When you compare the frames below, it should be obvious which one looks more like a "race" bike.

BTW, the CAAD7 in my opinion feels rather dead. The frame doesn't work with you. It just flexes and returns to its original shape without any sense of spring or activeness.




No its not really obvious to me unless i see one of them on the starting line.... :crap:

[93legendti]

Oh, wait, here is another one.....

Davis Phinney won a dump load of races riding a........

And TWO TdF stages!

[ergott]

Serotta is trying to rebadge themselves as builders of racing frames. IMO that’s a good thing but they still have a way to go before they can make the claim that they build racing bikes. Serotta is playing a risky game here. Their customer base has for the most part been middle aged cyclists who yearn for the days of steel frames and who don't place a great deal of value in frame weight and aggressive frame geometries.

Serotta is trying to appeal to the racing crowd. IMO they will have some level of success with racers. But they will need to make products that will have the same appeal to racers as their current products do with road sport enthusiasts. Not an easy thing to do.


:bike:


Here's to you!
http://pesanervi.diodati.org/pn/doc/footinmouthtrophy.jpg

Serotta's reputation is for race bikes first. They just happen to make bikes with a superior ride quality. That and the fact that they can get their bikes to fit anyone and you see why people like their bikes.

[Johny]

Aside from winning the Olympics in the 90's, What bike won the Giro in '88? I can't for the life of me think of the name of that bike..... Anyone, anyone? :rolleyes:

Landshark.

[Kurt]

Even better, my cousin is a Cat 3 in NYC. Races on a traditional rear Legend. Paid retail, wins races.

Kurt, take it back.

I take it back, even through an east coast cat 3 is a west coast cat 4 :p
People really have a hard time reading threads I guess – I specifically said an OS legend feels like a dog compared to a lightweight race bike, esp where acceleration is concerned and that it kind of expensive to race and maybe hit the deck in, so what do I get in return? troll comments, pics of ottrotts which are not even close to a legend in handling and weight that are given to some team to race, history of past serotta’s in races, etc. I never put down anyone’s bike, think serotta is top-notch in customer service and quality and I like my bike for what it is. Have a nice day. :)

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=Kurt]I take it back, even through an east coast cat 3 is a west coast cat 4 :p bro you know how to make friends dude cheers
:beer:

[bcm119]

Lets cut Kurt some slack. Hes not a troll, hes been around here for a while, and we all know he has a blunt writing style. And this thread hasn't reflected poorly on Serotta, save for Litespeeders misinformed comments.

You're on your own with that east coast/west coast comment though.

[Kurt]

Lets cut Kurt some slack. Hes not a troll, hes been around here for a while, and we all know he has a blunt writing style. And this thread hasn't reflected poorly on Serotta, save for Litespeeders misinformed comments.

You're on your own with that east coast/west coast comment though.

long time, I put a :p in it, so that's means I am j/k right? just got back from a nice spin up latigo in my legend touring bike, whew I am cooked. :D

[loctite]

I take it back, even through an east coast cat 3 is a west coast cat 4 :p
People really have a hard time reading threads I guess – I specifically said an OS legend feels like a dog compared to a lightweight race bike, esp where acceleration is concerned and that it kind of expensive to race and maybe hit the deck in, so what do I get in return? troll comments, pics of ottrotts which are not even close to a legend in handling and weight that are given to some team to race, history of past serotta’s in races, etc. I never put down anyone’s bike, think serotta is top-notch in customer service and quality and I like my bike for what it is. Have a nice day. :)

Wrong wrong and wrong, Racing on the East cost is Harder and faster, i have lived and raced on both. The Ottrott IS close to the Legend in handling as they both use the same ST system, and the weight is almost identical. The differenc is in torsional stifness. Wrong again. The point to all this, know the facts before you spew. :D

[Dr. Doofus]

monkey gets kurt

it would depend on what you asked for, doof supposes

weight isn't an issue with a crit bike -- look at the emma or the mx-leader, two kick-butt crit bikes (doof has raced the latter, only heard about the former...the mx doof borrowed last year, and the one he had for a while in '96 flew out of corners)...

the question is *where* the weight is, and why is it there...a four-pound 56cm thron frame with skinny old-school tubes and stays will acclerate like crap, but a four-pound 56cm emma or mx will do a good saturn v (think big and powerful) imitation if the rider has the power to do it (in other words, if the weight is there because the builder was using cheap tubes and had to use more metal to get a responsive frame, its going to suck...or if the extra weight is evenly distributed over the frame it will suck...if the extra weight is packed in where it matters -- like the stays, the bb junctions, the dt, the dt/ht junction, and a fork that will absolutely never deflect now matter how fast you hit a corner -- that's a different matter entirely).

so if you asked kelly to use that Ti to make you a kermesse bike (like TiDesigns' rig) you'll get a race bike...you ask kelly to make you a comfy century cruiser, you won't get a good crit bike

[Argos]

...pics of ottrotts which are not even close to a legend in handling and weight...

My Ottrott is 16.25 with my heavy wheel, And handling is geometry. I think your taking pulls that are pulling Oxygen from your brain. :rolleyes:

[Kurt]

My Ottrott is 16.25 with my heavy wheel, And handling is geometry. I think your taking pulls that are pulling Oxygen from your brain. :rolleyes:

you might be right, my 04 legend in a 58 OS with 00 record everything, keo, flight, 1580gm wheels is 18+#'s - feels like a turd compared to my cdale, I am not kidding.

[93legendti]

...troll comments, pics of ottrotts which are not even close to a legend in handling and weight that are given to some team to race, history of past serotta’s in races, etc....:)


If you look at Serotta's stock geometry charts, you'll see (at least in my size) that the Ottrott and Legend have the same geometry and specs. They also are offered with the same choices of forks and rear triangle options:

ST STangle TT TT Slope HTangle R/T CS BB Drop SO HT


52.0 74.0 52.5 0 72.0 4.3/6.5 41.25 8.0 77.6 1.5

I have both a Legend and an Ottrott. They are within a few ounces of each others' weight.

[Too Tall]

Kurt, you said "I specifically said an OS legend feels like a dog compared to a lightweight race bike". I have no doubt your impression reflects the overdesigned and stout build of the Ti Legend. From what little I know...and folks tell me that every day matey...that's what you get when you buy a Legend, let me explain that. The most appropriate folks for this fine bicycle in-me-Umble-opinion are larger / strong riders and these bikes will shine. Mine is a prime example of why to buy a custom legend. I'm 6'8" bean pole and ride and race very aggressively. The bike is flawless where others I've ridden and race are pale by comparision. Maybe this is not the perfect race bike for you...is that why you bought it?

To say it is a clunker compared to a lightweight race bike has little basis. Heck, I'd fold damn near any lightweight race bike you put me on in short order and I'm certain no flyweight rig would ever work for me in hard crits and RRs....but what do I know?

Anywho, you had the cahonas to say your peace and responded with civility, no harm in that :) bannana

[Fixed]

bro about being 180 pounds bro you could be 5'10" and be a kick booty sprinter oh yeah some young kid from texas used to do pretty good at 175 in the classics .cheers :beer:

[William]

To say it is a clunker compared to a lightweight race bike has little basis. Heck, I'd fold damn near any lightweight race bike you put me on in short order and I'm certain no flyweight rig would ever work for me in hard crits and RRs

That's a BIG 10-4 good buddy!



William ;)

[divve]

[QUOTE=divve]It sounds more like jerk is talking about geo and resulting set-up. When you compare the frames below, it should be obvious which one looks more like a "race" bike.

BTW, the CAAD7 in my opinion feels rather dead. The frame doesn't work with you. It just flexes and returns to its original shape without any sense of spring or activeness.




No its not really obvious to me unless i see one of them on the starting line.... :crap:

I think you do get the point :rolleyes: Look at the bikes used by people who race for a living and compare them to your own set-up. It has nothing to do with the manufacturer of your frame, everything to do with function and the rider who uses it.

[vaxn8r]

bro about being 180 pounds bro you could be 5'10" and be a kick booty sprinter oh yeah some young kid from texas used to do pretty good at 175 in the classics .cheers :beer:
Fixed, you just described me..well, 5' 11", 185. My Legend is 16.125 lbs and is certainly not a dog or a turd. I am definitely more a grinder, masher, power rider so maybe what works for me doesn't work for Kurt.

I also have a CAAD 7 and I already prefer the Legend over the 'Dale....for any type of riding.

Anyone want a 56 CAAD7 or Atlanta?

[loctite]

[QUOTE=Kurt]
People really have a hard time reading threads I guess – I specifically said an OS legend feels like a dog compared to a lightweight race bike, QUOTE]

Well Mr. Kurt, i wasnt offended at all at your original post, but this one gets to me. You officially win the foot-in-mouth award. How the HECK do you know how my CUSTOM bike rides? You dont, and "like a dog" is dead dog wrong. I have my choice of bikes to race from Cervelo, Guru, IF, Calfee, Parlee, Peg, DeRosa, Moots and more. I choose Legened, NUFF SAID. (its all good, i can let bout anything rool off my back) Im soory if YOU have had a bad experiance with a Legend, but dont get mad, they are GREAT race bikes. Cheers! :beer: