ENVE Wheelbuilding issues

[10-4]

At this point I've built about 20 sets of ENVE wheels. Road 45's, 65's, and XC 29er rims. Never had an issue.....until the last batch.

Recently I've built two sets of 45's, both times one of the rims had spokes pull through. Both times on the DS rear.

First time, rider was on the wheels for less than 2 miles and the nipple pulled through. When I finished the wheels and glued on the tire, DS rear spoke tension was 125-130kg for all 12 of the DS rear spokes. Nipples were the correct orientation.

Second time, I hadn't even gotten the entire rear wheel up to tension, DS rear spokes were only at about 100-110kg as I was still in the process of brining them up to tension when a nipple pulled through the rim. No cracking/creaking of any sort, just a pop.

Both of these rear wheels were with White Industries T11 hubs, DT Swiss Aerolite spokes, laced 2x. Both happened within a few weeks of each other.

Never before have I had this happen, not once. Ever. Now twice in a couple of weeks.

Any guesses? I'm going mad over here. ENVE guys were awesome the first time and replaced it under warranty, so it makes me wonder if there's a known issue. When the first one happened I figured I screwed something up without knowing it.....

[ultraman6970]

Technical question, do you need washers to lace carbon rims??

[10-4]

I've never used them with ENVE rims and I've never seen them recommend them. That's of course not an absolute "no", but I've built a lot of wheels, and a fair number of them with ENVE rims, and I've never seen anything about using washers.

Also, the inner radius of the rim is tight, I'm not sure how that'd work anyway.

[xjahx]

Two months ago: 45, 28h, 2x aerolites, tension all within range, nips appropriate, pull through on final round of truing. Enve replaced the rim but not my time. Disappointing.

[10-4]

Two months ago: 45, 28h, 2x aerolites, tension all within range, nips appropriate, pull through on final round of truing. Enve replaced the rim but not my time. Disappointing.

Good to know they're cooperating. But yes, the time is gone, also out the shipping to them. You know, $15 to ship to them isn't the end of the world, but now I'm out a couple of weeks waiting as well as the time to build the wheel.

They were awesome to deal with the first go-round, so I'm not trying to bag on them, but it's a bummer.

Also, as I said, I've built a lot of their wheels and never had the issue before these last two.

[ultraman6970]

I was asking because i have never laced a carbon rim and kind'a imagine that they might need a washer or something to spread the loads a tiny bit.

I have noticed that lately in some brands of rims the insertion holes are really small, so small that you can barely put the nipple trough them, darn washers help a lot to fix those little details when the rim is not 100% right from the factory and more tension is needed in some spots, or even to retrue wheels that arent too good anymore. The smaller washers are the pillar ones i believe, designed for carbon rims, the only problem is to get them in the US.

[10-4]

Got ya. These are internal nipple, so the hole is tiny since only the spoke is going through. But, so far as I know, ENVE doesn't recommend washers.

[ultraman6970]

Cool thanks.

[bostondrunk]

Enve/Edge obviously takes care of their customers (original owners only, I assume), but it is rather bothersome the amount of rim failures/defects I've read about their rims over the past several years. I just don't get why anyone would bother with them.
When you have options like Easton EC90 Aero's (tubular) that you can get new from nashbar for 1k. I don't know that I've seen a single failure of an Easton tubular carbon rim. Same with Dura Ace C50 rims over several years.

What is it about edge/enve that makes folks pay the premium, especially for the 'old' flat shape?

[oldpotatoe]

At this point I've built about 20 sets of ENVE wheels. Road 45's, 65's, and XC 29er rims. Never had an issue.....until the last batch.

Recently I've built two sets of 45's, both times one of the rims had spokes pull through. Both times on the DS rear.

First time, rider was on the wheels for less than 2 miles and the nipple pulled through. When I finished the wheels and glued on the tire, DS rear spoke tension was 125-130kg for all 12 of the DS rear spokes. Nipples were the correct orientation.

Second time, I hadn't even gotten the entire rear wheel up to tension, DS rear spokes were only at about 100-110kg as I was still in the process of brining them up to tension when a nipple pulled through the rim. No cracking/creaking of any sort, just a pop.

Both of these rear wheels were with White Industries T11 hubs, DT Swiss Aerolite spokes, laced 2x. Both happened within a few weeks of each other.

Never before have I had this happen, not once. Ever. Now twice in a couple of weeks.

Any guesses? I'm going mad over here. ENVE guys were awesome the first time and replaced it under warranty, so it makes me wonder if there's a known issue. When the first one happened I figured I screwed something up without knowing it.....

I built some wheels for a local frame builder, and had the same thing happen, during the build with both, as the tension just peaked over 100 kgf...bad rim batch or something. Yep, the Enve people are great but..don't think this should happen.

[xjahx]

I am in your boat with about 50 sets of these built and only one pull through. I do not know the overall extent of the issue, but I wanted to contribute to say I have just experienced it. Customer service has always been top notch.

As for arguments for Enve, I have appreciated the hand made in the US but by guys I know and like to support.

[10-4]

I built some wheels for a local frame builder, and had the same thing happen, during the build with both, as the tension just peaked over 100 kgf...bad rim batch or something. Yep, the Enve people are great but..don't think this should happen.


Thanks for the info. Glad to know I'm not alone, totally bummed that I have company on this one.

[10-4]

On the outside chance anyone was following along with this thread, ENVE fully backed up their rim and gave us a brand new replacement. Again, bummed about the lost time, but psyched they backed up their rim. I was hopeful they would, but you just never know.

Kudos guys.

[wasfast]

Certainly great that they replaced it but doesn't answer the reason for the pullout behavior. Hopefully, you won't get the same result with the replacement.

[ergott]

That really sucks to hear. I haven't had any failures like that myself.

Warranties happen and I would like it if manufacturers would reimburse me for my time and money spent on shipping, but that doesn't usually happen.

[10-4]

Nope, no reimbursement for time or shipping, which does stink. The internal nipples also add a bit of time to the build vs. a standard rim. Also, these were tubulars, so the first failure wasn't jsut the time to build the wheel, but also reglue the tire.

But, at the end of the day I'm ok with it as long as they stand behind it. Warranties always have an addendum that the warranty is on the product only, not the labor involved to replace. It would be nice if they covered that, but, eh, whatever. I'm just glad to have the new rim.

Also, I built the wheel already and it's golden so far.

[Ahneida Ride]

I've heard that Envy has instigated "minimums" for certain carbon bits.
This is new policy. :butt:

This is NOT a help to the small custom shop.

[10-4]

I've heard that Envy has instigated "minimums" for certain carbon bits.
This is new policy. :butt:

This is NOT a help to the small custom shop.

Not sure what you mean?

[oldpotatoe]

That really sucks to hear. I haven't had any failures like that myself.

Warranties happen and I would like it if manufacturers would reimburse me for my time and money spent on shipping, but that doesn't usually happen.

Nor the time(labor) to rebuild a wheel with a defective rim..THAT just happened to me. Sidewall split early on, yes got new rim and even spokes for free(different ERD) but my nickel for rebuild.

As for minimums, no more onesey-twosey..like a pair of rims, not a whole slew of them. I don't know, the ones I have gotten were pairs only, 2 rims..maybe new policy-that would not be good.

Can always call Reynolds.

[Peter P.]

Enve's tech specs suggest the drive side spokes reach 120-140kg, 80-100kg for the non-drive spokes.

Since no washers are mentioned, it's safe to assume they're not needed.

I'd rebuild the wheel, measuring spoke tension at steps along the way. If it happens again, you'll have proof and something you'll be able to share with Enve. I'd imagine they'd WANT to hear about your problem and will gladly send you a second rim in appreciation for sharing your experience.

Can you use a different tension meter to see if the numbers are similar to your meter? Perhaps your tension meter is out of calibration.

[oldpotatoe]

Enve's tech specs suggest the drive side spokes reach 120-140kg, 80-100kg for the non-drive spokes.

Since no washers are mentioned, it's safe to assume they're not needed.

I'd rebuild the wheel, measuring spoke tension at steps along the way. If it happens again, you'll have proof and something you'll be able to share with Enve. I'd imagine they'd WANT to hear about your problem and will gladly send you a second rim in appreciation for sharing your experience.

Can you use a different tension meter to see if the numbers are similar to your meter? Perhaps your tension meter is out of calibration.

I know discussion group but I'd say they should replace regardless of shared information or not.

AND I would 'bet' the issue is the rim not the tension meter. I had mine pull thru right at about 100 kgf..measured on a $300 DT tension meter.

Tensioning, nipp pulled thru, measured the other spokes..100 kgf or so..certainly not near the 120-140 they rec.

[10-4]

Enve's tech specs suggest the drive side spokes reach 120-140kg, 80-100kg for the non-drive spokes.

Since no washers are mentioned, it's safe to assume they're not needed.

I'd rebuild the wheel, measuring spoke tension at steps along the way. If it happens again, you'll have proof and something you'll be able to share with Enve. I'd imagine they'd WANT to hear about your problem and will gladly send you a second rim in appreciation for sharing your experience.

Can you use a different tension meter to see if the numbers are similar to your meter? Perhaps your tension meter is out of calibration.

I had posted the measured tension during the build earlier in the thread, but as I went the nipple pulled through on the second rim when I was well below the lowest in the range for the DS rear.

I have both Park and DT Swiss tensiometers, and both are always dead on to each other.

[buddybikes]

I picked up a set of Bontrager XXX lites in 2009, built in Wisconsin and they appear absolutely bulletproof. They are often used on the cyclocross circuit and a light as a feather. Not even sure they are made now, perhaps everyone wants the aero look, even though they are doing TTs. Ideally if they could of upped their production, especially those rims, and lower the cost, perhaps with a light alloy hub.

[zap]

I picked up a set of Bontrager XXX lites in 2009, built in Wisconsin and they appear absolutely bulletproof.

No doubt one of the more under rated wheel sets.

Tough to beat the current Bontrager carbon offering........even if the spokes are white.