Tubulars vs. Clinchers [Archive]

Ozz

02-27-2004, 11:08 AM

The simple answer is that tubular tires are tubular...and clincher tires clinch.

A more complex answer is that a tubular tire is basically a tire that is wrapped around an inner tube. The underside / non-tread side of the tire is sew up, and covered with typically a cotton backing. The cross section of the tire is therefore, round. This type of tire is then glued onto a rim. You need to have rims that are made for tubular tires.

A clincher tire on the other hand, has an open underside, into which the tube is inserted. The edges of the tire have a bead that is either kevlar or steel wire. When the tire is mounted on a clincher type rim, air pressure pushes the bead against the edges of the rim. The air pressure and bead keep the tire on the rim.

I have only ridden clincher type tires, so I cannot speak to the advantages of one type over the other. Tubulars are supposed to provide the best ride. Clinchers are very convenient and for the most part, idiot-proof.

I am in the process of building up a set of tubulars to see what the fuss is all about.

hope this helps

bostondrunk

02-27-2004, 11:13 AM

Oaklandhills

02-27-2004, 11:17 AM

Boston - once one gets the hang of the gluing process, is the gluing process immediate? If a flat occurs on the road how long does it take for the total repair to set?

Climb01742

02-27-2004, 11:19 AM

boston, is gluing easier while sober or "happy"? i've always tried it sober and man, it's hard. maybe i should try it after a six-pack. cheers! :beer:

bostondrunk

02-27-2004, 11:21 AM

A proper blo.....er...glue job is very simple, and is better done when you are drunk because your fingers won't hurt as much while stretching the tire onto the rim.
Once on, add some pressure, center the tire so that it is straight all the way around, add more pressure and let dry overnight.

bostondrunk

02-27-2004, 11:22 AM

If a flat occurs on the road, rip the old tire off, stretch your spair tire on. The old glue on the rim and the tire pressure will be more than enough to get you through the rest of the ride. Unless you are descending mountain passes at 60 miles an hour

Too Tall

02-27-2004, 01:11 PM

Just for the heck of it. Read up on this subject at the nimble (wheels) website. Nimble Wheels (http://www.nimble.net)

REPORT back!

Oaklandhills

02-27-2004, 01:34 PM

After the reading the Nimble I am sticking with clinchers for now.

ClayM

02-27-2004, 02:34 PM

Oakland Hills -

The functional differences between tubulars & clinchers are the cross-section shapes of rims and tires. A tubular rim is a closed, box cross-section compared to an open, "U" shape cross-section on a clincher. The box cross section is more torsionally rigid so climbing and accelerating are improved. With the structural & strength advantages of the basic shape, the rim can be made from a lighter extrusion, too.

The tubular tire is a round cross- section when inflated while a clincher is a "U" shape. When cornering on a clincher, you are riding on the side of the tire, not on its crest. When cornering on a tubular, you are always on a same-sized arc of tire casing. Plus, on a tubular tire the pressure within pushes out equally at all diameters while on a clincher it will vary with location along the "U" profile.

For lighter riders (under 165lb.) tubulars will deliver a big improvement in ride and handling without too many sacrificial punctures. Heavier riders will, as with clinchers, experience more punctures and might regret the ongoing costs. Most tubular riders keep a (always growing) stash of good spares, tires that have reliable mileage left in them and have some glue build-up on them. I've been surprised at how well a spare adheres to the rim but after putting one on during a ride I still feel inhibited at pushing hard through corners. Good quality tubulars yield a better road feel and last longer so it's a place where you don't want to cheap out. With a little practice and a few tricks, mounting tubulars isn't too difficult. With a lot more practice, it's also possible to repair tubulars.

I rode tubulars for 30 years and just a couple seasons ago switched to clinchers. Why? Because as my rides became less frequent they became more precious and I really like the ability to restore a clincher to 100% potential performance following the occasional puncture. I disliked the idea of compromising a great ride with a less than 100% capacity wheel following a puncture on a tubular. And the contemporary clincher ride is really good...but it's not the same.

No matter how many tire company promo dollars are spent trying to persuade riders the clincher ride is "nearly equal" it'll never be. The functional mechanical differences that improve performance are all with the tubular.

Given the roads we get to ride on in the Bay Area with so many beautiful, cornering descents, you should sample the tubular feel sometime. It's the best way to squeeze the last portion of performance out of a nice frame. Tubulars are the ultimate ride.

ClayM

Kevin

02-27-2004, 07:07 PM

Tubulars with their glue are too difficult for the mechanically challenged (like myself). Clinchers are much easier to replace.

Kevin

jerk

02-27-2004, 10:03 PM

heres the skinny

all clinchers suck.
some tubulars suck.
some tubulars are fine.
a very few tubulars are great.

but the long and the short is, tubulars let you use a lighter stronger rim. its a D shape rather than a ] shape. clinchers may need to be inflated to stupid high pressures or else they are even moore prone to the pinch flats they are already prone too. a tubular can never get a pinch flat. in the event you get any kind of flat a clincher tire will blow off the rim probably causing you to crash or at least immediaitly stop...a tubular will generally deflate slowly, stay attached to your rim and allow you to roll off to a safe place....dependent on what tire and rim combination you use clinchers can vary from impossible to get on and off even with the aid of tire lever which f$ck up your rims to barely being able to grab the bead and being inherantly dangerous and prone to blowing off the rim even at high pressures.

tubulars can be run at lower pressures than clinchers and usually at higher pressures than clinchers...at all pressures they ride better...even the crummy square ones which cost less than a tube...

lastly how many of you morons run all-weather touring h rated tires on your porsches? if you had a porsche would you? listen up, the only bikes you guys are hereby allowed to putclincers (edit) on are bikes which exibit at least two of the following traits:

1)you would hang a six pack of pbr tall boys over the top tube so three cans hang over each side and force you to pedal (to quote eddie b.) "like polish milkman"

2) you have fenders on this bike

3) you have 26inch wheels on this bike

4) you have a suspension fork on this bike

5) you have a technomic stem on this bike

6) (yeah this is for you dbrk) you have 650b wheels on this bike

7) you have half step gearing on this bike

8) you know what the hell half step gearing is

9) you hate the jerk

and the final reason you are allowed to put clincher tires on your bike

10) you are recovering from a long and painful inhalents addiction

jerk

Kevin

02-28-2004, 05:04 AM

jerk,

I believe you made an error when you wrote

"the only bikes you guys are hereby allowed to put tubulars on are bikes which exibit at least two of the following traits"

I think you meant to write clincher, not tubular.

How difficult is it to replace a tubular if you get a flat on the road? Do you have to ride with glue?

Kevin

jpw

02-28-2004, 06:19 AM

Who IS the Jerk?

Kevin

02-28-2004, 07:15 AM

He is like The Shadow.

jerk

02-28-2004, 07:38 AM

thanks kevin- edit made.....see sometimes the jerk may seem wroong but he actually is right just in an inarticulate way.....it was late and the jerk was tired.

dbrk

02-28-2004, 08:38 AM

On this matter of tubulars and clinchers I have a mildly different opinion than my esteemed jerk and the venerable Bigmac, though he has yet to contribute to this thread (his deep preference for sew-ups is well-known).

BackThen every rider but the randonneur and 650B cyclotouriste rode tubulars because clinchers did indeed suck. Now I think clinchers are a million times better than they were. Perhaps I am a fool for noticing but this vast improvement has more or less won me over. The reason for this is that that They don't make sew-ups like they used to. The best ones (Dugast) cost a fortune, the tolerably nice ones cost a bundle, and these are the only (read: ONLY) ones I'd think worth using at all. The reason is that bad sew-ups truly truly suck more than even a reasonable clincher.

There is no doubt that the best sew-ups out ride the best clinchers, imho. I have conceded this point though I've in the past vigorously argued that clinchers are nowadays pretty swell. But to answer the jerk point by point:
1)you would hang a six pack of pbr tall boys over the top tube so three cans hang over each side and force you to pedal (to quote eddie b.) "like polish milkman"

senor wins the prize for making me laugh out loud, something I seem to do only when robin or billy [insert genuinely funny person, uhh....GWB? but not because he is trying, or am I laughing for other reasons?] are doing standup...

2) you have fenders on this bike

Oh, no. I would happily use fenders on many a bike that would use good sew-ups. Fenders don't slow you down, they keep you dry.

3) you have 26inch wheels on this bike
4) you have a suspension fork on this bike

My non-affliation with mtn bikes makes this moot. But if I were interested in mtn bikes then this would be Moots and I'd take el senor's advice.

5) you have a technomic stem on this bike

Now, now, just because we like the bars level doesn't mean we must show all that quill...A normal TTT or Cinelli quill stem has between 135mm and 150mm of quill, just not enough usually...I will concede that we are geeks for having the bars up. That's okay.

6) (yeah this is for you dbrk) you have 650b wheels on this bike

What I would do for a Dugast 650B sew-up but the beautiful casings were never made in this size. There is, I warn you all, soon to be a Major 650B Revival on our hands. Be prepared: French coolness factor and excellent functional options are about to rise...

7) you have half step gearing on this bike
8) you know what the hell half step gearing is

Drop me a line if you need this explanation (though the jerk and others can supply). I actually use half-step on at least four bikes, foolish man that I am. Once you get over 7 cogs in the rear half-step is bygone but with the proper triple it rocks all known (and as yet unknown) universes.

9) you hate the jerk

We love the jerk and not just because he's right about 99% of the time and the other 1% is a friggin' margin of error...

and the final reason you are allowed to put clincher tires on your bike

10) you are recovering from a long and painful inhalents addiction

Ahhh, glue. I need advice about the new Tufo strip things because they appear at last to have slowed the mess problem. Warning: if you have never mounted your own tubulars wear rubber gloves (the proctologist variety) the first time. Oh, and use the best sew-ups because they don't make them like they used to and cheap ones suck waaaaaay more than most modest clinchers.

dbrk

jl123

02-28-2004, 07:34 PM

DBRK,

Does anyone make tubulars for 650b? How about custom? Thanks, JL

dbrk

02-28-2004, 07:58 PM

I've been looking at 650Bs for a long, long time and have spent a heck of a lot of time looking for things related to them...but never have I seen a 650B tubular. The reason is that these bikes were built for French roads, that is, cobblestones, pave, the sort of thing that begs for really fat, oversized tires. The 32c tires we see today from Michelin, Mituboshi, and Schwalbe are the exception, not the rule. More common are tires in the 45c range. My old Herse, likely from about 1961 with the Cyclo (special braze-on) rear derailleur, simply has to use the fatter tires. Put a "modern" 32c 650b and, well, rides wrong. So making sew-ups in this size is just not happening.

dbrk
awaiting some Dugasts...and Mavic SSc rims from Holland, headed for the incoming Nagasawa.

jl123

02-28-2004, 08:15 PM

I've read (and hope to experience!) your friend Jan Heine's story on that as well- something to the effect that his old 52' Herse actually needed 38c or so tyres to make it handle correctly.

So am I to assume from what you are saying, that even in their heyday the French 650b adherents only rode 40-something section tyres that were *clinchers*? And further they did so because to this day no one has been able to feasably produce them as tubulars?

Last when you say more common today are 45c tires, you mean that such rubber is still made in such a large size?

Thanks, JL

dbrk

02-28-2004, 08:23 PM

Correct: in the dayspast 650B riders rode clinchers only in fattire sizes, usually around 42c-45c. Yes, such tires are still made. Kendra makes a sort of cheap version (largely to be avoided) and Schwalbe makes a 42c (I think that's right). The Schwalbes are only available in Europe but from dozens of dealers. Rando-Cycles in Paris has them, the owner Paul Dolemes speaks perfect English, if that's important. Michelin's tires belong to the modest 32c and these work well so long as the bike is designed for them, like my Singer and Mariposas.

dbrk

jl123

02-28-2004, 09:05 PM

Interesting.

I know that if I had a 650b, I'd be on some of the Euro 42c's. Doesn't seem like any penalty to pay. If Jan H. can race on them (actually not sure if he raced on 42's but close- I think the Paris-Brest racers used over 40c's though) sucessfully, they are good enough for me. Why not put some on one of yours?

BTW- As you already can infer, I'm a convert, now singing with the choir. I hope and think that maybe your words have and will continue to impact others into a similar disillusion of dogma.JL

jl123

02-29-2004, 11:00 AM

DBRK,

Sorry, reading comprehension mistake,

"My old Herse, likely from about 1961 with the Cyclo (special braze-on) rear derailleur, simply has to use the fatter tires."

I take it you *do* already use 40 something tires. I suppose what I was thinking was about you using 40's as a performance tire- as I remember you said the Herse is not ridden that way.

Thanks, JL

dbrk

02-29-2004, 11:22 AM

It is a common misconception that skinnier tires make you go faster. In fact, a wider roll is a faster roll and there are many features to tires that enable (or disable) your speed and stability. So, you are quite right: there is nothing about a wider tire that would slow you down.

My Mariposa uses Honjo fenders, my Singer uses Lefol (the original French version that Honjo clearly knocked off...), but in both cases they use the narrower fender. Some 650B were designed and made for the wider tires (and hence the wider mudguard) while others were made for the narrower one. When you have the narrower fender you are compelled by reasons of fit and clearance to use the narrower, i.e., 32c, tire. The up side of all of this is that the bikes were designed to be ridden with these respective tires and widths and hence manage better with them. While the wider fender would permit the narrower tire, there are two disadvantages to this: first, the bike fails to handle optimally because it was made for the wider tire and, second, the narrower tire leaves too much clearance in the fender thus spoiling the line and your clothes because it churns up too much. A great bike with mudguards, as you know, has proper lines and this is difficult to achieve without using the proper tires and fenders matched (leaving aside the fittings which take time, patience, and the right bits).

dbrk

Too Tall

02-29-2004, 05:30 PM

Kevin, tubulars are the devil's own. Trust me on this one. Steer clear.

So, me and the wife just came back from another hammerfest on the tandem....fitted with tubulars. I have alot of good things to say about (crappy ha ha) Tufo Elite roads with about 30g. of anti-peril sealant slurry. But don't ask.

Kevin

02-29-2004, 07:41 PM

Too Tall,

As a child I was taught that the 11th commandment was Thou shall not ride tubulars. They seem like an awful lot of work. I'll stick with idiot proof clinchers.

Kevin

bostondrunk

02-29-2004, 08:01 PM

If you think tubulars are bad, or too much trouble, then either you probably have never tried them, and/or you have never taken the time to learn how to mount one. I can change a tubular tire on the road twice as fast as most people can repair a clincher.
Oh, and they ride better. Oh, and their lighter. Oh, and they do actually feel different and better than clinchers.
Geez, you guys listen to the jerk about everything else, why not this?!
Then again, if you insist on riding your tires at 90psi for comfort (hahahaha), then it don't matter what tire you use, its gonna be a nice squishy ride.
For the record, the first time I tried to put a tubular on, I ended up with glue all over f(*&(ng everything! Learn how to do it properly and you won't have this problem at all.

Kevin

02-29-2004, 08:12 PM

bostondrunk,

I am glad that you enjoy riding tubulars. I am also glad that you can change a tubular twice as fast as most people can change a clincher. However, I am not bright enough to change a tubular, so I will stick to idiot proof clinchers.

Kevin

bostondrunk

02-29-2004, 08:32 PM

Kevin,
It takes a big man to admit he's wrong.
It takes a bigger man to admit he's not bright.
Stick with clinchers big guy! heh heh

froze

03-01-2004, 01:14 AM

Simply put, if your racing use tubulars, if your not then don't.

For riding on city surface streets or out on a country highway far from help, tubulars can be a bother. Tubulars are too narrow with max widths of only 22mm they have a tendency to drop into groves and cracks in the road, they don't stop as fast as a wider tire, and if you have more than one flat your screwed unless you know how to repair a tubular on the side of the road, which use to take me about 45 minutes-removing the tub, cut open the stitches (hopefully you know where the leak is first), pull a portion of the tube out, repair as you would any tube, stuff back into tire, restitch and place tubular on rim. I use to carry two spare tubulars when I rode just in case. Problem is on several occasions I had more that 2 flats on a ride! Now where is the weight savings advantage when you have to carry 2 tubulars?

I can almost fix a flat on a clincher as fast as replacing a tubular. It takes me no more than 5 minutes to fix a front flat. Find the leak, then remove half of one side of the tire, pull tube out just enough to expose area of the leak, fix leak with glueless patch, put tube back into tire and replace tire on rim. Balabingbalaboom (or something like that), anyway done quick and simple.

jpw

03-01-2004, 03:50 AM

I don't think i'm an idiot...but i do use clinchers.

Is this a paradox?

bostondrunk

03-01-2004, 05:43 AM

froze,
how does a couple of mm's of tire width affect braking time??

Too Tall

03-01-2004, 06:15 AM

Akshully, Queen and I rode with Jan H. to the first control in last yr.s PBP. Noooo handling problems with that tandem. Now the brakes, on the other hand, could wake the dead! Jan did make a few comments regarding the good ride quality of the 35(?) width tyres.

I'm OK with fixing tubs by the side of the road....just so long as A: I forgot and packed clincher spares, B: I forgot and packed clincher spares, C: I forgot and packed clincher spares.

F.Y.I. - World Class Cycles in NY sells tires at a DEEP discount if you purchase 10 tires (total) or more. The most utilitarian tubular I ride is a Conti. Sprinter, they ride decent and wear like iron esp. with a season of aging. AT $26 (World Class 10'fer price) per tire they are less expensive than alot of "crappy clinchers".

Flame out.

Ozz

03-01-2004, 07:59 AM

"use the best sew-ups because they don't make them like they used to and cheap ones suck waaaaaay more than most modest clinchers" - dbrk

O.K - how about a list of best, good enough, and ones to avoid?

(my rims should come in this week and I will start building up my set of tubular wheels!)

theoldman

03-01-2004, 08:58 AM

My first choice has been the Continental Competition. Great tire. Another popular choice is the Continental Sprinter. Biketiresdirect.com have good prices in the US. Because I have had good luck with the competition, I stick with them.

Another tire that I have my eye on is the veloflex roubaix. A little wider (24mm) than most tubulars. They can be purchased at worldclasscycle.com.

Europe has better choice and much better prices than US suppliers on most tubulars. Check out www.deesidecycles.com also totalcycling.com. When buying from overseas suppliers it is always a good idea to buy a bunch at a time; normally I buy in groups of 4. This minimizes the cost per tire of shipping.

froze

03-01-2004, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by bostondrunk
froze,
how does a couple of mm's of tire width affect braking time??

I have went from very narrow racing tires in the 19mm to 22mm range and the narrower the tire gets the faster it locks up when trying to brake fast which means you cannot put as much brake pressure on as you can with wider tires. On city streets I use 26mm tires and I can very easily tell the wider tires stop you faster. This should not be a surprise to you or anyone else that's been riding bikes for awhile! I have experienced the difference first hand with many panic stops using both 19 and 22mm tubular tires and 25 or 26mm clincher tires. The narrow tire locks up very fast and it's almost like riding on skates (remember pictures of cyclist trying to stop with their skinny tires in race event? they are sliding out of control). With the wider tires I really have to hammer the brakes to get them to lock up and you can readly tell your slowing faster than you could on the skinny ones.

Just in case you don't follow my logic the following is from Sheldon Brown:

"A wider front tire makes sense in many applications, however, when handling and ride comfort are considered. A wider tire will generally provide better cornering traction than a narrower one, assuming appropriate inflation pressure. If lightness is the primary goal, tire width/weight is limited by the risk of pinch cut flats, a.k.a. "snake bites." Since there is more weight carried on the rear tire, you can get away with a slightly narrower tire in front than you can in back."

Now the question is how much faster will you stop? Even if it's only a foot shorter at 15mph, that foot could save your life. Some of you have two sets of rims, narrow tires for racing and wider ones of training so why not experiment. Go down a street at 20 mph and apply the brakes hard at a specific point on the road then measure the starting to stop distance then repeat with the wider tires.

This narrow tire vs skinny tire is nothing new, it's worked for cars for years!!! Why do you think todays cars have wider tires? So that they are safer by stopping quicker and handling better. If the car manufactures worried only about fuel economy then we would have skinny tires on our cars-skinny tires have less road friction thus less rolling resistence thus better gas mileage. Have you ever seen a lowrider try to brake fast using skinny tires? Yup, they slide as if their on skates.

So the less road friction offered by the narrower tires are great for racing because the whole idea in racing is to go faster but that less road friction sacrifices the same friction needed to stop quicker.

Roy E. Munson

03-08-2004, 07:00 PM

Bringing this thread back from the dead! I sold my tubular wheels last year and am on clinchers now. Tubulars are a pain in the a** to glue and mount - it's messy and a complete pain getting the tire set straight. Further, if you can just grab a tubular on the side of the road and quickly tear it off, you never glued it right in the first place. It takes a few minutes of tearing your f****** fingertips off too get it started. And, once you do get rolling again with the spare on there, you have to nurse it a little because it's not glued. Yes, tubular rims are lighter, but that weight difference is too little for anyone on this board to notice. And while the benefit of not having your tubular tire blow off the rim in case of a flat is great, I doubt too many have had thier clincher blow off the rim in the event of a flat either. Ride quality? A good clincher will ride just as good as a tubular. Funny, people on this forum can notice the better ride of tubulars, yet pro's like Eric Zabel and Jens Voight can't. Of course pro's ride them, they don't have to glue them or change them out on a ride. As far as using tubulars for training, I cannot see any purpose.

bags27

03-08-2004, 07:45 PM

Thirty years ago, during my first cycling days, sew ups were what I used: 8 bucks, I think, for a good pair. Didn't notice a problem putting them on. Now I use clinchers and don't like 'em, but wouldn't change--but it's just like Microsoft Word. Everyone knows it's not very good, but it's dominant and very available.

froze

03-08-2004, 08:57 PM

I found something interesting on Sheldon Browns site concerning tubulars vs clinchers...something even I did not know: tubulars have more rolling resistence than clinchers! Here's a copy of the pros and cons:

Tubulars are a bit lighter than comparable clinchers, due to the absence of the beads. The development of Kevlar� beads has considerably reduced this advantage.

Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims, since they don't need the flanges that hold the bead of the tire in place.

Tubulars are less prone to pinch flats than clinchers, since the rims don't present the sharp edges of the clincher flanges.

Many riders believe that tubulars provide a more comfortable ride and better traction than clinchers.

If you get a flat on a tubular, you can install a spare tubular faster than you can change an inner tube in a clincher.

Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable performance.

Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people just throw them away.

You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat. This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team car following you with spare wheels.

If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.

Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.

Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.

Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always causes a serious crash.

from: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

theoldman

03-09-2004, 03:57 AM

There are pros and cons of both tire formats. As a long time rider of both I will give you my perspective.

Thirty years ago, tubulars were the only real tire you could use on a quality racing bike. Clincher tires were worse in every regard. Clinchers were not as safe, (tire blow offs) and rolled with much greater resistance.

Today, clincher wheels and tires provide a good and reliable platform to take a racing bike and rider anywhere they want to go. They are widely available, at many price points and sizes. They are the defacto standard in bicycle tire/wheels. No question. For 99%+ of bicycle owners, they are the first and only choice.

But tubular tires still exist and are still used by some people and they will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.

Why, because they are different and offer certain quailities that clinchers do not have.

My 'racing' style bike has two set of wheels, one with tubulars and one with clichers. On most days, the tires that will be used are the tubulars.

Now both are good wheels and both have good tires, but the tubulars wheels get used for the following reasons.

1) I prefer the ride quality of the tubs. There is a difference in how they ride and corner. The ride quality is enough to make them my tire of choice on my daily solo 'pleasure' rides.

2) When there is a tire puncture, I prefer to change a tubular on the side of the road, then repairing a clincher. For me at least, changing a tubular is faster, easier and more 'complete' then fixing/ changing a clincher.

As a side bar, last summer on a century ride, one of my riding buddies (on clinchers) had 6 flats. Despite the best efforst of 2 wrenches and 6 co-riders, there was no way of finding the problem. Was it the tire, the rim, the rim tape? In the end, all three were replaced to fix the problem. Now if he had been on tubs, one tire change and he would have been all set. It reminded me why I choose to ride a tubular on most days.

The clinchers get used when I am out with our club on long rides. The single and only reason I take the clinchers is that all of the other riders ride clinchers. If someone gets multiple flats, there are many tubes to go around.

I also ride clinchers during the winter months. And when I say winter, I am talking about a real Canadian winter, with lots of snow, ice and cold weather. I just does not feel right to ride an expensive tubular during the winter months.

Over the weekend, I glued up a new pair of tubs in anticipation of warm riding weather. I enjoyed taking the time to glue and mount the tires. A ritual of spring that I have done for years that reminds me of better riding days ahead.

The tubular debate is an interesting one, if not a little pointless. Clinchers have won the hearts, minds and cash of most riders. Tubulars have become marginalized in all most all circumstances. There is little need or desire for anything other than a quality clincher. But for some cyclists tubulars still have a place. I for one still enjoy the attributes of a quality tub and will continue to ride them.

Too Tall

03-09-2004, 06:50 AM

Theoldman is a tubular oracle. Never doubt him. As for Sheldon, well he is the big bad Sheldon and I sometimes doubt him despite his decidedly appealing crunchy nature.

Web content has a life of it's own so here's my very sarcastic take on it. *Sorry Sheldon, I'd wash your windows any day.
----------------------
@@@(Thus Spake Sheldon-Zarathrustra)
***(Derr Derr Derr Too Tall)

@@@Tubulars are a bit lighter than comparable clinchers, due to the absence of the beads. The development of Kevlar� beads has considerably reduced this advantage.
***Clinchers are heavier....just less so...most of the time.
@@@Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims, since they don't need the flanges that hold the bead of the tire in place.
***Mostly some of the time. But WE know weight is not the deciding factor. Right you are!
@@@Tubulars are less prone to pinch flats than clinchers, since the rims don't present the sharp edges of the clincher flanges.
***BIG 10-4.
@@@Many riders believe that tubulars provide a more comfortable ride and better traction than clinchers.
***High TPI clinchers give a ride comparable to a good high TPI tubular...for as long as it takes to break down some of their sidewalls and than it's a foot race to the trash can. Tubs have more casing and tread for the volume giving a decidely longer race to the trash.
@@@If you get a flat on a tubular, you can install a spare tubular faster than you can change an inner tube in a clincher.
***Sure if you don't use enough glue in the first place. I DARE anyone to change a properly glued tub. in less than 2 mins. AND inflate it. It's about the same if you know what you are doing and were taught to leave a bare spot next to the valve AND to leave a bit of air in the tub.
@@@Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable performance.
***Not if you shop. Veredestine=29 Conti sprinter=27. Shops mark them up skyhigh because nobody buys them.
@@@Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people just throw them away.
***Clincher and Tub Casings are both problematic to repair. Repairing tub innertubes is easy....send them to "Tire Alert" or have a warm Belgian and meditate the mediocrity of pro football. AND puh-lease send me your most excellent tubs with punctures for safe keeping. I wear mine out.
@@@You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat. This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team car following you with spare wheels.
***So, ride TUFOs w/sealant if your going to be such a weight wuss.
@@@If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.
***BS, if you've properly prepd' the spare and kept the base tape in good condition. That's just wrong but easy to screw up if you were not schooled how to keep a spare ready. True, I ain't going to dive a crit corner but I will corner with confidence.
@@@Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.
*** Sorry to hear that. Is it true? I am SO on the phone right now to every pro team in the world.
Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.
*** Pay for junk you get junk.
Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always causes a serious crash.
*** dumb arses fail to seat clinchers all the time or pinch tubes causing....oh never mind ;)

Don't even think of getting upset at what I've said. Just general BS'in.

bostondrunk

03-09-2004, 06:56 AM

I second everything Too Tall just said.
Pros ain't using clinchers on those deep carbon rims they are racing on, nor many of their other wheels.
Notice how team Telekom ain't using those pink clincher tires when racing (the ones they showed in one of the latest issues of Pro Cycling, or one of those mags)? Thats cause they're using tubulars.

Kevan

03-09-2004, 07:31 AM

What's it gonna look like to them seeing their father wrestling with rubber snakes on the kitchen floor, glue splattered about the four walls and cabinets, with the strong stench of distillates wafting from the room, me muttering obscenities at unseen characters called "The Jerk" and "The Bust'n Drunk"? Sorry, but it sounds like the best chapters out of "Fear and Loathing...".

Nope, tubulars are kinda like me winning the TdF, giving up my job to bike all day, to see my wife whoop my ass on the next century ride (the simplest task, I needn't add); I just don't see it happening.

bostondrunk

03-09-2004, 08:42 AM

Man, tubulars are so easy to mount once you learn how.
Its really a silly excuse not to use them.

I wear slippers to work because I don't want to have to deal with shoe laces........

weisan

03-09-2004, 10:17 AM

When I got my Legend a couple months back, it came with a pair of tubular Helium wheels. I didn't start using them at first but ordered another pair of clincher Crank Creek chrono. Now, I ride with the heliums all the time, the red-colored rims looked way too cool and matched perfectly with the Candy Apple color scheme on the Legend. I don't take part in competitive racing, so riding on tubulars and heliums seems almost an overkill for me at first, but now I am using them all the time on every regular rides, and enjoying it.

Too Tall, bostondrunk, theoldman:
If I may, I would like to consult you folks from time to time on how to get better at repair//change/prep/glue tubulars.

Too Tall, you mentioned specifically on two things:
1) "It's about the same if you know what you are doing and were taught to leave a bare spot next to the valve AND to leave a bit of air in the tub."

My question: I understanding the part about inflating the tub slightly before installing...what do you mean by leaving a bare spot next to the valve?

2) "Not if you shop. Veredestine=29 Conti sprinter=27."
Where do you usually shop?
Theoldman mentioned a couple of places earlier: Biketiresdirect.com, www.deesidecycles.com , totalcycling.com, worldclasscycle.com

Bostondrunk, I wish I could get to to see a live demonstration on how you change tubular. I need to learn it from the master.

Too Tall

03-09-2004, 10:37 AM

W., maybe I was not clear. I learn by seeing.

It is easier to REMOVE a tub if there is some air in it. Trying to pry off a dead flat tub can be murder. Even if it is leaking, pump it just enough to get it off. Second, leave a 1 inch bare spot on both sides of the valve hole. That bare spot won't make the tire stay on any better and it serves as a convenient spot to start removing the tire from. In reality, I smear just a touch of glue in that area...very light and all on the rim edge. Everybody has their thing, that's my way.

WorldClass cycles in NY has a 10'fer price that can not be beat. If you are not racing you might look at the TUFO elite road version. It is a very light tub for the volume (size - 23) and is tough as nails. I'm running them on my tandem and for training on my race wheels with their sealant goo. If you go that route chat with me off line as the sealant and valve require some jockeying and understanding. I've found this to be a darn near pop-proof tub setup and their performance is just a notch below a Conti Competition....cornering-wise. The TUFO S3 is their performance tire to get. ZAP rides the S2's so you can ask him abooot that.

The TUFOs are an experiment this season. I am not going to race them but thought I'd pass on my experience so far. I'll race on veloflex.

bostondrunk

03-09-2004, 02:29 PM

Yo Too Tall <burp>
You ever try using tubular tape? I haven't yet, probably won't, but was wondering how its worked for others...

Climb01742

03-09-2004, 02:40 PM

too tall, is the sealant necessary with tufo's? or just an added precaution? tufo's seem like a great idea.

MartyE

03-09-2004, 03:17 PM

Bostondrunk

I've been running Tufo tape with conti sprinters for the past
6 months without problems. Much better than the Jantex tape
of old. Only problems I know of are that the bond is strong
enough to peel the base tape off of non tufo tires, and the glue
comes off with the tire and does not stay on the rim. If you need
to change a tire on the road you'd better have extra tape with
you.
Climb, the sealant is not required. It will help prevent flats
if you apply when you mount the tire, or can plug them as
an on-road repair.

Marty

Climb01742

03-09-2004, 03:23 PM

marty,
so you can use the tufo tape on non-tufo tubs? that works out ok?
climb.

froze

03-09-2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by theoldman
2) When there is a tire puncture, I prefer to change a tubular on the side of the road, then repairing a clincher. For me at least, changing a tubular is faster, easier and more 'complete' then fixing/ changing a clincher.

As a side bar, last summer on a century ride, one of my riding buddies (on clinchers) had 6 flats. Despite the best efforst of 2 wrenches and 6 co-riders, there was no way of finding the problem. Was it the tire, the rim, the rim tape? In the end, all three were replaced to fix the problem. Now if he had been on tubs, one tire change and he would have been all set. It reminded me why I choose to ride a tubular on most days.

I rode on tubulars myself for 15 years but stopped in 85. And the flat reason you gave as a pro is actually the main reason I stopped because I stopped racing. Thus since I was no longer riding a group and had multiable flats on one ride I would have to take along 2 spares and/or flat repair kit which involved serious amount of time to do. I could not imagine having 6 flats on a ride by myself using just tubulars, and don't tell me this cannot happen because I have had as many as 5 flats on one ride, used both spares plus had to take over 2 1/2 hours total time to fix the other 3!! That is not my idea of fun. A little unusual? sure, but it can and does happen. With the clinchers the most flats I've had on one ride was 4 and it took no where near that amount of time to fix-about 45 minutes total and that was fixing not replacing a tube.

Read my above post from Sheldon Brown with his concerns regarding tubulars.

Roy E. Munson

03-09-2004, 06:13 PM

Anyone that can change a tubular on the road side as quickly as a clincher never glued the tubular correctly. The duration of a tire change includes removing the tube on a clincher or the tubular itself, not just getting it on the rim. Any tubular will stay glued riding around the countryside on a bike that gets used for the weekend warrior routine. Run your tubulars into a tight corner in a crit at 30+ and see what happens.

bostondrunk

03-09-2004, 06:22 PM

Roy ya old bugger, who would ever try to replace a tubular during a crit?? My tubulars have never rolled, crits or otherwise, and I can replace it on the road within a few minutes.
Me thinks Roy has never used tubulars!

Roy E. Munson

03-09-2004, 06:44 PM

ahhhh, bostondrunk,

You should read a little more carefully:
First post in the thread is that I sold my tubulars.
And the point is that anyone can keep a poorly glued tubular on doing weekend rides, country tours, etc. It's at speed in corners where you'll find out if they are glued properly or not. Mine were glued very well, stayed on during hard cornering in crits and rr's, but were baastards to get off the rim . They would DEFINITLY not come off faster than I could change a clincher.

froze

03-09-2004, 09:13 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roy E. Munson
ahhhh, bostondrunk,

And the point is that anyone can keep a poorly glued tubular on doing weekend rides, country tours, etc. It's at speed in corners where you'll find out if they are glued properly or not. Mine were glued very well, stayed on during hard cornering in crits and rr's, but were baastards to get off the rim . [/QUOTE

Ah ha; I had to say something to the ahhhh group. Anyway Roy I agree with your statement about problems with replaced tubulars after the main one fails, it is not on as well as the original because it needed to "cure" for at least 3 hours. Even in the pro races after they replaced a tubular the rider could not dive as deep into the corners due to the higher likeablity of roll off. Todays races if a rider flats they usually use a tubular that is already on a rim and "cured" so they just replace the entire assembly-not real practicable for us mere mortals.

But I also disagree with your thoughts on the tubular is slower to change than a clincher. I can fix a front clincher using clueless patches and assuming I found the leak quick, in about 5 to 7 minutes; compare that with replacing a tubular in about 4 to 6 minutes. So we're bickering over about one minute...not an issue for me which is one of the minor reasons I switched to clinchers.

Again read the Sheldon Brown pro and con quotes in my above post.