Frame & wheel recs for "stout" riders

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I'd like to build my father in law a road bike. He's not a tall man (roughly 5'8") but I think it's accurate to call him very "stout". I'd estimate he's around 250/260. He's on a hybrid and has been quietly pining to do some group rides. Ensuring he is comfortable is key, and i definitely will be getting him a fitting ao i know what geometry to look for.

My two big questions apart from the fitting numbers are regarding the frameset and wheels. I'm thinking a steel frame for ciat, comfort and durability but I'm not sure whether a steel or carbon fork would be best. As far as wheels, I'm inclined to use 36h wide rims with 25c tires to give him the strength he will need while adding a little more comfort in. At his weight I imagine 36 spokes will still result in a forgiving wheel. But I would appreciate thoughts on this and also if I should seek/avoid certain spokes.

Also, if someone can recommend a good fitter near St Petersburg Fla, I'd appreciate it.

[echelon_john]

Biggest contributor to comfort will probably be tires. To that end, I would recommend finding a frame with clearance for good sized ones. I'm the same weight, but 6'6", and big 25s are the smallest tire I ride (Michelin ProRace). All my other wheels have RolyPolys or larger.

Your priorities sound right; fit first, then material choices. Make sure you go to a fitter who doesn't work only with racers, as the needs/limitations/priorities of someone with the build you describe are completely different.

In terms of spokes/spoke count, 36 is probably a good idea, at least for the rear. 36/32 or perhaps 32/32 with an O/C rear will work well. The Velocity Dyad is a great rim for riders that size; very small (50g) weight penalty over 'racier' rims, and very durable. The HED C2 rims are great also, as is the A23. But the Dyad will be the most resilient. Any good spoke like the Wheelsmith DB14 or Sapim Race will work well, and go with brass nipples. If you decide on pre-built wheels, the lower end Ksyriums are actually pretty durable, although more of a hassle/expense if he breaks a spoke.

One other thing to think about: for his size, especially if he's strong and pounds on the bike a bit when climbing/standing, a steel or ti cassette body will hold up better than aluminum. Aluminum can get notched even under proper torque with a rider that size...ask me how I know! ; )

Good luck with the project--great that he's getting more into cycling!

JC

[palincss]

The Velocity Dyad is a great rim for riders that size; very small (50g) weight penalty over 'racier' rims, and very durable.


Let's put this in perspective: we're talking about a rider who has a 100 pound "weight penalty." 50g don't mean diddly squat -- it's down there in the noise level.

[bargainguy]

Whatever wheels you decide, I strongly suggest getting handbuilt as opposed to machine built wheels.

At the Clydesdale level, breaking spokes and hubs gets to be a real concern, esp. the rear wheel where most of the weight is concentrated. My experience is that a master wheelbuilder is much better at tensioning & building than any machine.

Might cost more but definitely pays off in the long haul, both in parts and in less downtime.

BTW, nice thing to do for your in-law!

[ofcounsel]

I guess I'm gonna be a bit contrary and say that as a clyde myself (5'-10 and ~220lbs give or take), you don't necessarily have to go overboard on the build if durability is a concern. Most skinny folks think that us fat guys necessarily are going to tear up equipment due to the added weight. That may have been the case in the 80's and 90's, but not so with modern equipment. I'm currently using a comfy carbon frame and an 18 spoke front and 24 spoke rear wheelset (Easton's -- No weight limit). Not so much as even slightly out of true in almost road 1000 miles this year (I ride a lot, but mostly MTB, not as much road).

My road rides are mostly (slowly) climbing in the local mountains and cruising at an 18-20mph pace on flat trails.

[shovelhd]

A good, well built cross wheelset should be added to your options list.

[jds108]

Re: fit, I'll just state the semi-obvious... I'm 5'10" and 210-215. Was up to 250 a few years ago. The 'fit' problem at that weight is simply your legs hitting your gut. Raising the bars and shortening the stem help with that. Jeez, I still have this problem...

So if there is some chance that he'll improve over time then take this into consideration when deciding on sizing.

A 32h rim in back will be enough, especially if a deep section alloy rim is on that list (like the 30mm deep Velocity Deep V)

Also get him to try more than one saddle....

[Peter P.]

Personally, I wouldn't advise him to get a road bike until his weight drops below 200lbs. and stays there. The 200lb. number is admittedly arbitrary but I consider it a reasonable benchmark.

My thinking is virtually all road bikes are very limited to the tire sizes they can accommodate and that limit is 25mm in the BEST of cases. I don't feel that's adequate pinch flat protection for someone as heavy as your father. I also don't think he'll be able to fit into a low handlebar, road bike position if he's carrying so much extra weight-as already mentioned above, his stomach will get in the way of his thighs.

My recommendation would be to take his existing hybrid and turn it into a fast road machine with the built-in ability to support a tire size more appropriate to his weight such as 28-32mm. Here's how:

You'll want to drop the bars to a level 2-4cm below the top of the saddle, which is a reasonable compromise in on the bike position considering his build. Do this with a lower rise stem or even if necessary, a custom stem. Lowering the stem will engage the glutes and hamstrings as happens when you ride a road bike and put your father in that efficient, flat back road bike-like position.

Equip the bike with zero-rise handlebars and short bar ends. Cut the bar width down about 1" overall at a time until he starts to get into a more road friendly position. Example: I'm 5'6" and run a 40-42cm road bar. My ATB bars are 55cm wide, end-to-end including bar ends.

Get rid of the shock fork if any, and install a rigid aftermarket fork.

Install a slightly smaller cassette on the back so he'll have more usable gears on the road.

The above setup will cost significantly less than a new road bike.

My mountain bike is equipped exactly as above. I merely swap out the knobby tires for skinny ones and the bike screams on the road.

[palincss]

I guess I'm gonna be a bit contrary and say that as a clyde myself (5'-10 and ~220lbs give or take), you don't necessarily have to go overboard on the build if durability is a concern.

However, there is quite a difference between 220 lb and 250 lb.

[palincss]

Personally, I wouldn't advise him to get a road bike until his weight drops below 200lbs. and stays there. The 200lb. number is admittedly arbitrary but I consider it a reasonable benchmark.

My thinking is virtually all road bikes are very limited to the tire sizes they can accommodate and that limit is 25mm in the BEST of cases. I don't feel that's adequate pinch flat protection for someone as heavy as your father. I also don't think he'll be able to fit into a low handlebar, road bike position if he's carrying so much extra weight-as already mentioned above, his stomach will get in the way of his thighs.

My recommendation would be to take his existing hybrid and turn it into a fast road machine with the built-in ability to support a tire size more appropriate to his weight such as 28-32mm. Here's how:

You'll want to drop the bars to a level 2-4cm below the top of the saddle, which is a reasonable compromise in on the bike position considering his build. Do this with a lower rise stem or even if necessary, a custom stem. Lowering the stem will engage the glutes and hamstrings as happens when you ride a road bike and put your father in that efficient, flat back road bike-like position.


Not all road bikes limit you to a 25mm tire. You can, for example, get a Seven Axiom SL designed to fit a 28mm tire. I also disagree with your 2-4cm bar drop. Bars level with the saddle would be substantially more comfortable than a 2-4cm drop -- and believe me, comfort is a lot more important than trying to find an "efficient, flat back road bike-like position."

[charliedid]

Budget?

[ofcounsel]

Personally, I wouldn't advise him to get a road bike until his weight drops below 200lbs. and stays there. The 200lb. number is admittedly arbitrary but I consider it a reasonable benchmark.




WOW... That's literally about the dumbest thing I've heard ALL year.

However, there is quite a difference between 220 lb and 250 lb.

True. I started the year out at 254lbs, and lost the weight riding both my road and MTB bike.

[ofcounsel]

Not all road bikes limit you to a 25mm tire. You can, for example, get a Seven Axiom SL designed to fit a 28mm tire. I also disagree with your 2-4cm bar drop. Bars level with the saddle would be substantially more comfortable than a 2-4cm drop -- and believe me, comfort is a lot more important than trying to find an "efficient, flat back road bike-like position."

So true. I sold the Merckx (the frame is currently at a fire sale price from another seller in the classifieds) and bought Cannondale Synapse. The longer head tube makes for a more upright relaxed riding position. The set up puts the bars relatively level with my saddle. I can ride 50-60 miles easy in comfort at an easy 18-19mph average pace (my friends like to draft behind me due to my substantial girth). My knees don't slam my gut, even when I'm on the drops.

[verticaldoug]

Rivendell Atlantis
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-atlantis.htm

The bike already handles wide tires, is stout, and versatile. The price is very reasonable. The design philosophy of Grant Petersen to 'Just Ride' and unrace will probably suit your father-in-law well.

[Puget Pounder]

Rivendell Atlantis
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-atlantis.htm

The bike already handles wide tires, is stout, and versatile. The price is very reasonable. The design philosophy of Grant Petersen to 'Just Ride' and unrace will probably suit your father-in-law well.

"I need some wheel suggestions"

"Nah, get a new bike"

Wouldn't that be nice? ;)

[vqdriver]

It seems a long reach brake frame or even a cross frame (if 32+ tires are a consideration) would work nicely here. There's decent selection of stock steel that's not necessarily race oriented. Soma, salsa, surly etc. Whatever matching fork they offer should work fine tho i see that some carbon options limit tire size.

Fwiw my stock Time frame fits 28 ultremos

Re wheels, 32/32 works fine. I probably wouldn't go below 28/32 for him.

[jr59]

Personally, I wouldn't advise him to get a road bike until his weight drops below 200lbs. and stays there. The 200lb. number is admittedly arbitrary but I consider it a reasonable benchmark.

My thinking is virtually all road bikes are very limited to the tire sizes they can accommodate and that limit is 25mm in the BEST of cases. I don't feel that's adequate pinch flat protection for someone as heavy as your father. I also don't think he'll be able to fit into a low handlebar, road bike position if he's carrying so much extra weight-as already mentioned above, his stomach will get in the way of his thighs.

My recommendation would be to take his existing hybrid and turn it into a fast road machine with the built-in ability to support a tire size more appropriate to his weight such as 28-32mm. Here's how:

You'll want to drop the bars to a level 2-4cm below the top of the saddle, which is a reasonable compromise in on the bike position considering his build. Do this with a lower rise stem or even if necessary, a custom stem. Lowering the stem will engage the glutes and hamstrings as happens when you ride a road bike and put your father in that efficient, flat back road bike-like position.

Equip the bike with zero-rise handlebars and short bar ends. Cut the bar width down about 1" overall at a time until he starts to get into a more road friendly position. Example: I'm 5'6" and run a 40-42cm road bar. My ATB bars are 55cm wide, end-to-end including bar ends.

Get rid of the shock fork if any, and install a rigid aftermarket fork.

Install a slightly smaller cassette on the back so he'll have more usable gears on the road.

The above setup will cost significantly less than a new road bike.

My mountain bike is equipped exactly as above. I merely swap out the knobby tires for skinny ones and the bike screams on the road.

Seeing as I weigh 280 right now and 250 before I tore up my shoulder. Never been under 220 since playing D1 ball. I would STRONGLY disagree.

I have owned and ridden MANY bikes. 90% road. No trouble at all. Not one bit.

The idea that 25 tires don' provide pinch flat protection is plan silly. I use to ride 23 only. For 100,000's of miles. No pinch flats ever. Just need to make sure they are properly inflated. Now that I have "too many" road bikes..cough, cough....9 :eek: I run most with 25 and some with 23, And my city bike with 28s. No pinch flats.


I'm talking over 20 years of riding.


I would talk to your father in law about what he would like to do on a bike.
Get some idea of his goals and desires of a bike.

In regards to wheels, Mostly I run 32 hand builts, they have always worked well, with very little fuss. Although I now have one 28 on the front of 1 bike :eek: I hope it hold up. I have learned to ride easy. Not slow, but easy on my gear.

I think it's a good thing to get some people off of hybrids and on to road bikes. They are just so much more fun.

[oldpotatoe]

I'd like to build my father in law a road bike. He's not a tall man (roughly 5'8") but I think it's accurate to call him very "stout". I'd estimate he's around 250/260. He's on a hybrid and has been quietly pining to do some group rides. Ensuring he is comfortable is key, and i definitely will be getting him a fitting ao i know what geometry to look for.

My two big questions apart from the fitting numbers are regarding the frameset and wheels. I'm thinking a steel frame for ciat, comfort and durability but I'm not sure whether a steel or carbon fork would be best. As far as wheels, I'm inclined to use 36h wide rims with 25c tires to give him the strength he will need while adding a little more comfort in. At his weight I imagine 36 spokes will still result in a forgiving wheel. But I would appreciate thoughts on this and also if I should seek/avoid certain spokes.

Also, if someone can recommend a good fitter near St Petersburg Fla, I'd appreciate it.

4 spokes weigh about 30 grams(an ounce) and 36h wheels are lots stronger than 32. Yep, decent rim in the 450 gram range, double butted spokes, 36 of them, laced 3 cross, brass nipps, 25c tires. Also a decent steel frame, needn't be real pricey, like the Soma Smoothie, for instance, and he'd be good to go.

[oldpotatoe]

Personally, I wouldn't advise him to get a road bike until his weight drops below 200lbs. and stays there. The 200lb. number is admittedly arbitrary but I consider it a reasonable benchmark.

My thinking is virtually all road bikes are very limited to the tire sizes they can accommodate and that limit is 25mm in the BEST of cases. I don't feel that's adequate pinch flat protection for someone as heavy as your father. I also don't think he'll be able to fit into a low handlebar, road bike position if he's carrying so much extra weight-as already mentioned above, his stomach will get in the way of his thighs.

My recommendation would be to take his existing hybrid and turn it into a fast road machine with the built-in ability to support a tire size more appropriate to his weight such as 28-32mm. Here's how:

You'll want to drop the bars to a level 2-4cm below the top of the saddle, which is a reasonable compromise in on the bike position considering his build. Do this with a lower rise stem or even if necessary, a custom stem. Lowering the stem will engage the glutes and hamstrings as happens when you ride a road bike and put your father in that efficient, flat back road bike-like position.

Equip the bike with zero-rise handlebars and short bar ends. Cut the bar width down about 1" overall at a time until he starts to get into a more road friendly position. Example: I'm 5'6" and run a 40-42cm road bar. My ATB bars are 55cm wide, end-to-end including bar ends.

Get rid of the shock fork if any, and install a rigid aftermarket fork.

Install a slightly smaller cassette on the back so he'll have more usable gears on the road.

The above setup will cost significantly less than a new road bike.

My mountain bike is equipped exactly as above. I merely swap out the knobby tires for skinny ones and the bike screams on the road.

Guess I gotta sell my Merckx...I'm above 200 pounds..any takers??

[jr59]

Guess I gotta sell my Merckx...I'm above 200 pounds..any takers??

I will gladly offer 2 dollars, but you will need to cover shipping! :p

[gavingould]

lots of good advice in here, but some goes a bit too far.

at 6'4 and 225lbs i've ridden 32 spoke 3x wheelsets (track bike/commuter) on a cheap cromo frame, ksyrium ES shod with 23s, 20/24 spoke handbuilts, carbon road framesets, carbon cx framesets, etc.

the last couple years i've been on a full carbon 'cross bike that i crash a fair amount and it is no worse for wear. this year i got a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest tubulars on it, i bunnyhop stuff and smash into a lot of roots, certainly don't baby them. no issues - haven't had to touch them with a spoke wrench.

riding style may account for a lot - i see light riders on beefy wheels that bash potholes and need a lot of truing work, but to say that no factory-built wheels will hold up under a larger guy is baloney.

it is absolutely true that the sets which come on most sub-$1500 road bikes are crap though, working in a shop shows you that pretty quickly...

[Ralph]

If you have an easy choice, doing hand builts, etc, I'd go go 36 spoke for him. Why not? For same hub and rims, they are stronger and won't hold him back.

[oldpotatoe]

If you have an easy choice, doing hand builts, etc, I'd go go 36 spoke for him. Why not? For same hub and rims, they are stronger and won't hold him back.

Yep, there seems to be some sort of adversion to those 4 extra spokes, I don't get it. For the vast majority of .1 offa ton riders, no reason to NOT use 36h.

For lighter riders as well..doesn't slow you down.

[maunahaole]

As always, the old spud is giving good advice. I weigh more than your FIL and have ripped up plenty of wheels. One thing to keep in mind is that as a novice/advancing rider, he will not be super smooth pedaling, so add extra beef into the back - it holds more weight, handles the power transfer and is out of whack structurally even if built perfectly because of the cogs. Lumpy pedaling just adds more stress to it. Go with a good stout rim. Something over 450 grams. The Dyad is a good choice, I rode one in 36h for a long time. Extra spokes are good, if for nothing else than the rim will stay straighter if and when he breaks a spoke in back. I build a pair of wheels with sapim strong 13/14 spoke in back and they have been nice since launch. Maybe something to think about.

He could ride 28 in front without issue if a good strong rim is used.

[Ralph]

And....when you break a spoke with 36, you can ride it home. 32 also usually, but 36 stronger.

[Pete Mckeon]

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT THE WHEEL TO BE USES FOR. :confused:


Yep, there seems to be some sort of adversion to those 4 extra spokes, I don't get it. For the vast majority of .1 offa ton riders, no reason to NOT use 36h.

For lighter riders as well..doesn't slow you down.

[oldpotatoe]

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT THE WHEEL TO BE USES FOR. :confused:

Good to hear from you Pete, hope your holiday days are happy and healthy ones BUT...

Unless you are going for uber aero, and screaming along at 25 MPH, alone, whether a cyclist, in a group or in a peloton, has 36 or 32 or 28 or even 24 spokes, really means ohhhsolittle. Yep, in a fairly sterile test, not on the road, a lower spoke count wheel is more aero and if carbon, certainly stiffer per grams of that rim(what most 'feel' when they talk about 'quick to spin up-stiffness)), 4-8 spokes mean little unless you break a wheel/spoke, when the wheel is designed too light, then you are way slower.

The best way to get a light wheel, using aluminum rims(and even then the weight reduction is small...as applied to bike and rider), is to use a light rim and sufficient spokes to support it for the rider.

For the vast majority of 'enthusists', which most here are, a 36 hole wheel certainly wouldn't make the difference between the stop sign crit leader's jersey and not. Certainly makes for points lost at the coffee shop before the ride but not on the road.

-Winter time museings in the early AM, before I go to work on this VERY cold and snowy morning-booooo-hate winter.

[palincss]

It can make a difference by the side of the road, after a spoke has broken, too.

Back in the day, we used to carry spoke wrenches, to tweak wheels with broken spokes back into alignment. These days, spokes are much better than they were in the early 1970s and they don't break nearly as often, but with low spoke count wheels when they do, there's no tweaking that can help: the wheels get so badly warped even opening the brake quick release often doesn't help. I've been on several rides where we had to abandon people by the side of the road for rescue after the ride because of broken spokes, and in three of those cases, the riders were slender women not 250 lb Clydesdales.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

We went in for a great fitting today at Outspokin in Clearwater, Fl. He walked out with some great info on how to get comfortable and efficient, and I now have all the numbers I need for the build.

I'm looking at something like a Soma Smoothie for the frameset. Although his toads down here are MUCH better than the pot holed mess we have up in MA, I think steel is the right way to go. It will ride very comfortably, easily handle his 240 lbs, and with zero hills (and room to drop lbs from his middle) the weight penalty is almost meaningless.

I have a lead on some 32 spoke 3x handbuilts with Velocity A23 rims laced to Ultegra hubs. I haven't any personal experience with this rim, so if someone can chime in on whether that build would be a solid setup I'd appreciate it. The price is right and Ultegra may be my favorite workhorse hub.

I pulled a set of 7800 off my wife's bike recently, so I will probably use that for his build. He has good flexibility everywhere but his shoulders, so the fitter recommended going a little wider on the bars. I'm thinking Rithcey WCS bars with a Thomson stem & post to give a clean and simple look to the bike. I usually tend toward carbon posts but I'm not sure the vibration dampening matters as much with a steel frame and I've got a Thomson in my parts bin. I'm looking at the 4 bolt Thomson for a bit more rigidity when he's out of the saddle.

[54ny77]

that's exactly what i have on one bike and they are terrific wheels. i'm dangerously close to the magic 200. guess i must not be worthy. ;)



I have a lead on some 32 spoke 3x handbuilts with Velocity A23 rims laced to Ultegra hubs. I haven't any personal experience with this rim, so if someone can chime in on whether that build would be a solid setup I'd appreciate it. The price is right and Ultegra may be my favorite workhorse hub.

[echelon_john]

thomson is a great way to go for sp and stem.

sounds like a smart build!

[charliedid]

We went in for a great fitting today at Outspokin in Clearwater, Fl. He walked out with some great info on how to get comfortable and efficient, and I now have all the numbers I need for the build.

I'm looking at something like a Soma Smoothie for the frameset. Although his toads down here are MUCH better than the pot holed mess we have up in MA, I think steel is the right way to go. It will ride very comfortably, easily handle his 240 lbs, and with zero hills (and room to drop lbs from his middle) the weight penalty is almost meaningless.

I have a lead on some 32 spoke 3x handbuilts with Velocity A23 rims laced to Ultegra hubs. I haven't any personal experience with this rim, so if someone can chime in on whether that build would be a solid setup I'd appreciate it. The price is right and Ultegra may be my favorite workhorse hub.

I pulled a set of 7800 off my wife's bike recently, so I will probably use that for his build. He has good flexibility everywhere but his shoulders, so the fitter recommended going a little wider on the bars. I'm thinking Rithcey WCS bars with a Thomson stem & post to give a clean and simple look to the bike. I usually tend toward carbon posts but I'm not sure the vibration dampening matters as much with a steel frame and I've got a Thomson in my parts bin. I'm looking at the 4 bolt Thomson for a bit more rigidity when he's out of the saddle.

I'd say you have a fine plan.

[ofcounsel]

Yep, sounds like he's gonna have a nice bike that's perfect for him!