Warning: More Lance Content :)

[tuxbailey]

By Sally Jenkins:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/why-im-not-angry-at-lance-armstrong/2012/12/15/5802bcce-460e-11e2-8061-253bccfc7532_story_1.html

Personally, I couldn't even finished reading the column and I just kept shaking my head.

[btl68]

...

[martinrjensen]

I didn't have a problem with it. A lot of the points she raised are valid. I just read Chris Horner's interview regarding Lance (cyclingnews) also and didn't have issues with that either. We are all just bystanders here. I hear so much rhetoric written as fact here when it's really just opinion that it makes me wonder.

[esldude]

By Sally Jenkins:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/why-im-not-angry-at-lance-armstrong/2012/12/15/5802bcce-460e-11e2-8061-253bccfc7532_story_1.html

Personally, I couldn't even finished reading the column and I just kept shaking my head.

Don't see a problem with any of the article. Some reasonableness about Lance not displayed many places lately. I think it says more about you than the article contents that you are shaking your head. Care to elaborate on why you could hardly finish reading it? Otherwise, what was your point in posting?

[victoryfactory]

interesting article. Of course you need to consider the source,
as usual.
I really wish people could learn to separate Great from Good.
Plenty of "Great" characters are not also "Good"
If you are concerned about what your kids will think about this,
teach them the difference and stop whining about how he let his
fans down.

Sure, critics will pick this story apart for its obvious flaws as they always
do, but that's not the point.

Hating on LA because of his monumental flaws is good sport but it
precludes the enjoyment of his greatness as a bike racer.

If you're pissed at Lance and not at everybody else who doped because
they are nice guys and he isn't, or they got caught and he didnt you are missing the point.
Lance didn't invent doping, he just perfected it.
Is he a bully? duh. I just think its immature not to be able to
separate the two sides of this story.
Under a microscope, you can find plenty of problems with any "great"
character.
VF

[witcombusa]

I think Sally smells another book deal in the wind....

[dancinkozmo]

You dont often read an article where the writer exposes themselves as a complete ignoramus.

[1/2 Wheeler]

....Care to elaborate on why you could hardly finish reading it?

Many people have a NEED to feel that they are part of a team that regularly comes to consensus. It gives them a feeling of unity and purpose.

Don't get it myself, but I suspect the OP was just putting it out there for similar reasons.

"Condolence" threads are sometimes an example of these as well.

[duke]

It read like a reasonable discourse to me. Valid points were made.
duke

[merlincustom1]

Don't see a problem with any of the article. Some reasonableness about Lance not displayed many places lately. I think it says more about you than the article contents that you are shaking your head. Care to elaborate on why you could hardly finish reading it? Otherwise, what was your point in posting?

I'm not the OP, but when I read early on "Shouldn't an organization with the initials U.S. in it have to follow due process?" I knew I was reading someone who couldn't be more misinformed.

[witcombusa]

"Maybe I’m not angry at Lance because, he made me a ****load of money"

[cash05458]

gee...I wonder what would happen to a post financial reporter who came out in defence of Madoff after he got nailed..."yeah, he is a liar and a cheat...but I love the guy...in a dirty business he did what he had to do and did it better than all...I just can't take that away from him ect ect"

Jenkins ought to lose her job...

This column from the same person who crucified woods for cheating on his wife...which had absolutely zero to do with golf...

The comment section is priceless with lots of numbnuts rolling out: go sally...right on...never tested positive and the french have it in for our hero...all the old chestnuts ect...one guy, and I am assuming he has some sort of brain damage by way of excuse actually says Lance and Captain James Kirk are his two favorite people in the world...:rolleyes:

[dancinkozmo]

"Maybe I’m not angry at Lance because, he made me a ****load of money"

This pretty much sums it up ^

[Dave B]

interesting article. Of course you need to consider the source,
as usual.
I really wish people could learn to separate Great from Good.
Plenty of "Great" characters are not also "Good"
If you are concerned about what your kids will think about this,
teach them the difference and stop whining about how he let his
fans down.

Sure, critics will pick this story apart for its obvious flaws as they always
do, but that's not the point.

Hating on LA because of his monumental flaws is good sport but it
precludes the enjoyment of his greatness as a bike racer.

If you're pissed at Lance and not at everybody else who doped because
they are nice guys and he isn't, or they got caught and he didnt you are missing the point.
Lance didn't invent doping, he just perfected it.
Is he a bully? duh. I just think its immature not to be able to
separate the two sides of this story.
Under a microscope, you can find plenty of problems with any "great"
character.
VF

I like this. Well done.

[tuxbailey]

Her column posted some valid questions that should be considered in the big picture.

Yes, Lance is only a cog in the machine. And I enjoyed a good race as well, whether there was PED involved.

Yes, he is a fierce competitor with the drive to win at all cost.

But to say that she is not angry when her friend lied to her for over a decade while she just kept defending him? Or that her friend is a thug who acts more like a mafia boss than a cheater, who would destroy anyone who dares to challenge him when they had the truth?

Lance had it coming. The higher they climb, the harder they fall.

[1centaur]

She says nothing that has not been said by others in recent weeks on cycling forums, but she packages it in a way calculated to move the public along the road to acceptance. For many people in modern American society, being "angry" is an inherent bad; the "have a right to be angry" phase of civilization is becoming not politically correct (when it comes to debatable concepts, not killing kids in Connecticut), disturbing, something to be eschewed. If anger is denied as a tactic, then enforced and coercive reasonableness wins like the ocean against the shore; the ability of anger to amplify the power of the minority view is doused. This is a very bad trend because first conclusions are often the first consensus and often wrong, and require passion on the other side to change.

There's a reason she focuses on anger rather than the actual points, which are mundane and amount to this: great rider, all did it, has a lot of good in him. The use of the mother anecdote ("he was so difficult to love") is also an extraneous emotional manipulation designed to put us in the mother's role. Ironic perhaps to replace the emotion of anger with the emotion of motherly love. Hey sports fans, maybe you're not Lance's mother, but you can be like Jesus and love the imperfect because who among you...?

At the end of the day, sports fans are good and bad too, and we're difficult to love sometimes, but it's well known that we like to idolize the best attributes we can imagine and don't like liars and cheats, and isn't that admirable? Think Lance's Mom would love us too?

Hot air in a pink bow - bird cage material.

[harlond]

I completely agree with Horner's point that if you passed the tests, you won the race. This business of deciding in 2012 who won a race in 1999 is stupid and undermines the sport.

[csm]

I completely agree with Horner's point that if you passed the tests, you won the race. This business of deciding in 2012 who won a race in 1999 is stupid and undermines the sport.

the whole thing stinks. It's completely turned me off to watching the spectacle of racing.

[Black Dog]

I completely agree with Horner's point that if you passed the tests, you won the race. This business of deciding in 2012 who won a race in 1999 is stupid and undermines the sport.

Huh? Doping and cheating and lies and bullying undermines the sport. Cheating is the same weather you are caught or not. How would you feel if you found out that the surgeon who was about to operate on you was cheating in med school but passed all the tests and was never caught. Would you apply the same logic?

I am a fan of pro cycling but not so much of pro cyclists. The real hero's of the world do not play sports. It is hubris to idolize these people.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Huh? Doping and cheating and lies and bullying undermines the sport. Cheating is the same weather you are caught or not. How would you feel if you found out that the surgeon who was about to operate on you was cheating in med school but passed all the tests and was never caught. Would you apply the same logic?

I am a fan of pro cycling but not so much of pro cyclists. The real hero's of the world do not play sports. It is hubris to idolize these people.

I think your analogy is only accurate if you added:

"After a very difficult but successful surgery that saved your life, you found out that the surgeon who operated on you was cheating in med school but passed all the tests and was never caught."

[spierfalls]

So when you turn 16 years old and you finally get your driver's license you have a set of rules for the road you must abide by right? Ok let's say they tell you that speeding is against the rules and if you get caught a couple of times then you loose your license. This could be the case in real life for anyone. So let's say you drive up and down your local highways with your new fancy sports car giving everyone of your friend's the bird while doing 100mph. Lucky for you the police never see you speed or act like an idiot behind the wheel, but all your so called buddies decide to call the authorities and give their explanations. Can the police arrest you because someone thought they saw you speeding? We go by a set of rules, rules in cycling that involve tests. You compete in a bike race, you win, then you piss in a cup. The man or women in charge says you passed the test, so you take home the trophy. Ten years later some guys get caught in the corner and they tell some truth's and now we take away the trophy. I agree with cleaning up the sport of cycling just as much as anyone. I've lined up as a pro against some of the World's finest MTBers many times and wished that doping didn't have a place in cycling. But the way all this went down just makes me sick. I've read all of the affidavits and all of those guys are just as much to blame as anyone. They mention each other more then they do Lance. They are all guilty as the next one. The only reason everyone has come out is because they were forced to with little recourse. Look at Tyler. He lies for as long as humanly possible until he flip flops his story into a best seller. And people love him again.
The cycling world is crazy.

[Rueda Tropical]

We go by a set of rules, rules in cycling that involve tests.

You are being very selective in the "rules" you cite. Tests are only a part of the rules and even there he failed several tests.

This has been beaten to death. A cheat and fraud got caught. End of story.

The fact that someone on the LA gravy train wants to write a puff piece absolving herself and her meal ticket of any blame is no big surprise. Doesn't change anything either.

[PQJ]

I completely agree with Horner's point that if you passed the tests, you won the race. This business of deciding in 2012 who won a race in 1999 is stupid and undermines the sport.

Horner is a fool. Passed tests meant nothing.

[Joachim]

Who is the "Lance" person?

[akelman]

Who is the "Lance" person?

He's yesterday's news. But yesterday's news can still angry up people's blood. So Sally Jenkins, who had column inches to fill and a certain number of page views to deliver to her employer, wrote about yesterday's news.

[harlond]

Horner is a fool. Passed tests meant nothing.
Thanks, I see what you did there. Did you RTFA?

[cnighbor1]

love this statement, '' If Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Christian VandeVelde and Dave Zabriskie took EPO during the Tour de France, it wasn’t because Lance Armstrong shot them in their butts with it.''
Yes
Charles

[jbrainin]

love this statement, '' If Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Christian VandeVelde and Dave Zabriskie took EPO during the Tour de France, it wasn’t because Lance Armstrong shot them in their butts with it.''
Yes
Charles

Since she excluded mention of George. I'll assume she knows that Lance actually did poke him in the butt.

[bikinchris]

She has very sensible thoughts.
I hope the OP is never 'convicted' by an agency that doesn't have to use due process. The IRS for instance. Or USADA. Or the press. (think Richard Jewell and the Centennial Olympic Park bombing among 10,000 other examples)
One of her best points is that I too don't beleive in thsi utopian idea of a pure sport with no cheaters. In recorded history every part of life has been rife with cheaters.
This thing about Lance getting all of the hate and the other riders getting a pass is getting the same reaction from me that this article is giving the OP and others. That doesn't mean Lance should get a pass, just a share of the blame, not all of it.

[bikinchris]

the whole thing stinks. It's completely turned me off to watching the spectacle of racing.

Do you also stop watching all other sports? Do you think cycling is the only sport with cheaters? If you don't think all other major sports have the same problem but are pushing it under the rug, you are delusional.

[CunegoFan]

I hope the OP is never 'convicted' by an agency that doesn't have to use due process.

Since a federal judge found the USADA process suitably robust as far as due process goes, that is pretty much irrelevant.

[Vientomas]

She has very sensible thoughts.
I hope the OP is never 'convicted' by an agency that doesn't have to use due process. The IRS for instance. Or USADA. Or the press. (think Richard Jewell and the Centennial Olympic Park bombing among 10,000 other examples)
One of her best points is that I too don't beleive in thsi utopian idea of a pure sport with no cheaters. In recorded history every part of life has been rife with cheaters.
This thing about Lance getting all of the hate and the other riders getting a pass is getting the same reaction from me that this article is giving the OP and others. That doesn't mean Lance should get a pass, just a share of the blame, not all of it.

Which agency "convicted" Richard Jewell? He was a suspect, but never charged. How does one have the right to due process without being charged, criminally, civilly or administratively? You do understand that "due process" is a concept required of governmental and quasi-governmental entitles before they can take action against you? The essence of due process is notice of the "charges" and an opportunity to be heard regarding said "charges". This Lance person was given both, but chose not to exercise his right to a hearing. Due process was served.

[bikinchris]

Which agency "convicted" Richard Jewell? He was a suspect, but never charged. How does one have the right to due process without being charged, criminally, civilly or administratively? You do understand that "due process" is a concept required of governmental and quasi-governmental entitles before they can take action against you? The essence of due process is notice of the "charges" and an opportunity to be heard regarding said "charges". This Lance person was given both, but chose not to exercise his right to a hearing. Due process was served.

The press convicted Jewel in the court of public opinion. They turned his life upside down relentlessly.
Let the IRS get a hold of you. If they THINK you have avoided taxes, they will freeze every penny you have and then they will take what they feel is enough. If you want to appeal, you do so with the money you have left. While sleeping in a box under a bridge.
Reminds me of the USADA.

[tuxbailey]

Which agency "convicted" Richard Jewell? He was a suspect, but never charged. How does one have the right to due process without being charged, criminally, civilly or administratively? You do understand that "due process" is a concept required of governmental and quasi-governmental entitles before they can take action against you? The essence of due process is notice of the "charges" and an opportunity to be heard regarding said "charges". This Lance person was given both, but chose not to exercise his right to a hearing. Due process was served.


+1.

Lance decided not to contest the charges as he was given the chance. He decided not to go forward with it since his best lieutenant was also against him.

I am not disagreeing that he was a fierce competitor and that he did a lot of good for the cancer community. I just find that it is very amusing that Sally Jenkins, who benefited from her relationshop with Lance, is not angry that her friend was lying to her face and the whole world about using PED, as well as being a thug toward anyone to dared to challenge him. You know, the usual stuff of lawyering up, ruining others' career and business, intimidation tactics, as well as defamation and public ridicule to others who have less resource to fight. In general, a classless thug. But Sally also had that covered because Lance grew up without love, his Mother struggled, etc.

[rounder]

I read the washington post daily and see a lot of stuff from Sally Jenkins. I think her stories are usually pretty good. If she wants to defend Lance in her story, i do not have a problem with that. I do not believe that drugs in bike racing are that much different than drugs in other sports. I do not have any evidence to support the belief. But there is the same motivation to win at all costs in big time sports, with potenially higher rewards.

Going back to Lance. Why single him out over others.

[Vientomas]

The press convicted Jewel in the court of public opinion. They turned his life upside down relentlessly.
Let the IRS get a hold of you. If they THINK you have avoided taxes, they will freeze every penny you have and then they will take what they feel is enough. If you want to appeal, you do so with the money you have left. While sleeping in a box under a bridge.
Reminds me of the USADA.

The press, and the court of public opinion, are not required to provide "due process". Apples to oranges.

IRS: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Collection-Due-Process-(CDP)

Collection Due Process (CDP)

CDP procedures are available to you if you've received any one of the following notices:

Notice of Federal Tax Lien
Notice of Intent to Levy

CDP Procedure

You have 30 days to request a hearing to preserve your right to go to Court.
Complete Form 12153, Request for a Collection Due Process or Equivalent Hearing
It is important you identify all your reasons for your disagreements.
The completed Form 12153 should be sent to the same address that is shown on your Lien or Levy Notice.
If your request is not received within 30 days, you are still entitled to an Appeals hearing. However, if you still disagree with the Appeals determination you cannot go to Court.
For more information please refer to:
Publication 1660, Collection Appeals Rights

[Louis]

Yes, Lance is only a cog in the machine.

He was a heck of a lot more than just a cog, he was one of the most influential figures in the sport. Certainly he was the most well-known.

[Rueda Tropical]

I read the washington post daily and see a lot of stuff from Sally Jenkins. I think her stories are usually pretty good. If she wants to defend Lance in her story, i do not have a problem with that. I do not believe that drugs in bike racing are that much different than drugs in other sports. I do not have any evidence to support the belief. But there is the same motivation to win at all costs in big time sports, with potenially higher rewards.

Going back to Lance. Why single him out over others.

He wasn't singled out. He singled himself out. Everyone else cooperated. Armstrong is not a victim. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Whining about witch hunts, persecution and how everyone is picking on you after you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar just makes you more of a douche.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Certainly he was the most well-known.

He still IS the most well-known and and will be for at least the next generation.

[slidey]

+1

"maybe i’m not angry at lance because, he made me a ****load of money"

[slidey]

And the world IS and always will be flat, or so the Catholic Church thought.

He still IS the most well-known and and will be for at least the next generation.

[PQJ]

Thanks, I see what you did there. Did you RTFA?

Yes, I did RTFA. Not sure what you're implying. If it's that I'm calling you an idiot as well (and I can see now how you might think that), that's not the case at all and I apologize. I still think Horner's an idiot, however.


Going back to Lance. Why single him out over others.

Dunno. Might have something to do with 7 straight tours (vs his teammates' 0 (or, in the case of Landis, 1-0, or Contador, 3-1)).

[whforrest]

'It's purifying to me that I've been honest.'

Lance Armstrong, 13 July 2001

'As you get older it is harder to have heroes, but it is sort of necessary.'
Ernest Hemingway


3 areas that stood out for me.

Sally forgot to mention that the worlds cleanest athlete was also working with the world's dirtiest doctor. I recommended that damn book to so many people.

1) Attacking USADA and due process. I was under the impression that USADA did follow proper procedural protocol in this case. Didn't they have proper legal counsel regarding every step they took?

2) I appreciate Lance's foundation helping so many wonderful people over the years. No one can take that away. However Sally is ill informed to mention that the 500 million raised went towards actual cancer research. Based on some claims only 6% of that money went to cancer research.

3) It wasn't as much that Lance doped. But really his marketing PR approach. "I am the worlds cleanest and most tested athlete." Disregard that I also work with the worlds dirtiest doctor Michele Ferrari."

4) What about the way Lance attacked people who were trying to tell the truth? Shouln't Sally give them their proper due respect?

Obviously this woman still loves Lance. To each their own.

[christian]

And in other news, Mr. Smithers still thinks Monty Burns is keen.

[FlashUNC]

And in other news, Mr. Smithers still thinks Monty Burns is keen.

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/hounds_release_them.gif

[christian]

^^^^^^^^^

That dude. Keen.

[William]

I think-un Lance tout he be goind ta Maine fo his thar USADA hearing. He was fraid he was gonna get his self a dose of Maine Justice!!! (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/maine-justice/1426446/)


I tell you what....





:D
William

[witcombusa]

David Walsh chimes in;


http://www.scribd.com/doc/117045089/Walsh-on-Jenkins

[mcteague]

David Walsh chimes in;


http://www.scribd.com/doc/117045089/Walsh-on-Jenkins

I love the smell of fresh air!

Tim

[cash05458]

He still IS the most well-known and and will be for at least the next generation.

yeah, and now he is known for being a notorious Liar...Armstrong will be remembered for that for generations to come via sport...no worries...

[tuxbailey]

David Walsh chimes in;


http://www.scribd.com/doc/117045089/Walsh-on-Jenkins

Brilliant.

I believe all the Lance apologists (Specially Sally) should read this article.

[alessandro]

Did you read this part of that apologia:

Maybe I’m not angry at Lance because for two decades now I’ve had serious questions about the wisdom and fairness of the “anti-doping” effort, which consists of criminalizing and demonizing athletes for what boils down to using medications without a prescription, as if they are heroin dealers. And I’m confused as to why using cortisone as an anti-inflammatory in a 2,000-mile race is cheating, and I wonder why putting your own blood back into your body is the crime of the century. And because there are offenses in sport that seem far, far worse to me. Like say, putting rapists on your college football team.

How can anyone describe this as reasonable? :crap:
So a longtime columnist from a major daily is now trying to soft-pedal the whole concept of "preparing?"

Jenx has no credibility, and now she's only made it all the more plain.

[Louis]

all the Lance apologists

No matter the historical figure, from the marginally not that nice to the most evil imaginable, you can always find some ready and willing apologists. (especially on the Interwebs)

I don't know if they're contrarians who just like being different, or dead-enders and miscellaneous hangers-on who can't accept that their heroes are rotten, but they're out there, willing to paint the most unambiguous story gray, because after all, so-and-so did have some redeeming qualities.

[slidey]

I got through to the 2nd para of Sally's ramblings. I think I deserve an accolade for my achievement!

[Rueda Tropical]

David Walsh chimes in;


http://www.scribd.com/doc/117045089/Walsh-on-Jenkins

A journalist doing journalism versus a hack mourning the loss of a paycheck. No contest.

[tuxbailey]

Did you read this part of that apologia:



How can anyone describe this as reasonable? :crap:
So a longtime columnist from a major daily is now trying to soft-pedal the whole concept of "preparing?"

Jenx has no credibility, and now she's only made it all the more plain.

Seriously, I stopped reading the column (and I still haven't gone back to finish) after that paragraph. At that time, I figure she had ceased to be a journalist but an employee of Lance and company.

[BumbleBeeDave]

If that particular publication--or any sports publication--had a writer on staff who had such a blatant conflict of interest with one of the newsmakers they report on, would they be allowed to write this--or even stay on staff?

BBD

[Vientomas]

If that particular publication--or any sports publication--had a writer on staff who had such a blatant conflict of interest with one of the newsmakers they report on, would they be allowed to write this--or even stay on staff?

BBD

Perhaps this is the "New Journalism" where entertainment is disguised as news.

[slidey]

I could go into politics to elucidate that conflict of interest doesn't really matter to major news corporations any more, but then you already knew that. It is also not very easy to come across committed news networks doing basic ground-breaking journalism, and lets face it the "basic" stuff doesn't interest any particular demographic. I can go on and on about what news networks aren't but I'll simply point to Al Jazeera to what a news network can be. Last night my girl and I were watching this (http://youtu.be/pLwVycO7V-k), one of the earliest reports highlighting basic safety violations in the factories of China, especially manufacturing Apple products. This is merely one instance of such basic grassroots journalism which I've come across time and time again from AJ, and have seen lacking in most other news organisations out there.

If that particular publication--or any sports publication--had a writer on staff who had such a blatant conflict of interest with one of the newsmakers they report on, would they be allowed to write this--or even stay on staff?

BBD

[ultraman6970]

To change the subject, what in the world happened with JB? he was due for the hearings and stuff like a month ago right?