OT: Heating Oil to Propane conversion?

[William]

Has anyone made this change? At first it sounded like a good thing, but after doing some browsing I'm seeing some data that indicates it may not be as cost effective as it seems.

We have a propane stove in the house that works great. Thought about having a propane water heater put in to take that burden off the oil furnace/boiler that heats the water now. After the installer took a look at the existing set up he's telling me there is no way he can put a water heater in and vent it to code (at least three feet away from windows). Oil tank is in the way in the one possible location that could work. His next suggestion (:)) was...since it's an older furnace, if we made the switch to propane, the existing furnace and oil tank could be taken out freeing up the space to put in and properly vent a Navien condensing combi gas boiler/water heater.

Just curious if any forum folks have done something similar? How did it work out and did it save you the $$ it was indicated it would over time?





Thanks!
William

[54ny77]

Speaking from experience....how long is the run from the proposed Navien to places like master bath, kitchen, etc? Reason I ask is because if it's a long haul (50'+ linear feet of pipe, esp if includes 2-story) each location will likely require an auxilliary pump to get hot water to it more quickly. Otherwise you're talking minutes before it can get at full operating temps.

In other words, Navien's suck and aren't worth the ridiculous money for the unit and the proper install with supplemental equipment (if needed). Their operating costs are very low, yes, but the inconvenience and headache ain't worth it in my opinion. It's like spending $50k on a fancy hybrid car for light duty commuting when you only drive a hundred or so miles a week, where the payback is measured in decades. Might as well get a simple used late model Honda Accord and save a ton, with no headaches.

Sorry, that doesn't answer your direct question, but keep this answer in mind about the Navien. And make sure your plumber knows how to install 'em properly and is an authorized seller.

[William]

Good do to know! From were it's located, we're probably talking less than 30' for the longest runs to the kitchen and the bath on the second floor.

I'm not sold on it yet and would take a look a newer more efficient oil units as well before making any decision.



Thank you!
William

[echelon_john]

Not to hijack, but I'm interested in this as well. We're on oil heat/hw, but largely heat with woodstoves in the winter. I would love to not be burning oil all summer to keep the water heater warm.

We already have a large propane tank for cooking, and I've been looking at the Rinnai tankless heaters. Anybody faced a similar choice?

William, have you looked at the Rinnais? Looks like they offer a few different venting options.

[William]

Not to hijack, but I'm interested in this as well. We're on oil heat/hw, but largely heat with woodstoves in the winter. I would love to not be burning oil all summer to keep the water heater warm.

We already have a large propane tank for cooking, and I've been looking at the Rinnai tankless heaters. Anybody faced a similar choice?

William, have you looked at the Rinnais? Looks like they offer a few different venting options.

There are two issues I'm running into with venting:

One is code. If what the gentleman told me is correct, the vent pipe can't be within 3' of a window. We have multiple windows on every wall, and only one space that could work but is currently blocked by the existing oil tank in the basement.

Two is the sill plate. This house is over 230 years old and sits on a sill plate (large wood beam). He's telling me he would have to bore a (if I remember correctly) 3" - 4" hole through it to run a vent pipe. I'm not real crazy about that.

I just started to look over the Rinnais but I'm having trouble getting past the two points above.





William

[echelon_john]

Can't help with the windows, but for the sill plate issue, if you're installing on an outside wall of the basement, what about going up through the floor, then out above the sill plate? This can be workable if there's dead space above; e.g. a closet or cabinet, where you can box out a chase for the exhaust vent and pop it out through the siding above the sill.

I wouldn't bore a 3.5" hole through a 200 yr old sill either. :)

[Ahneida Ride]

how about hooking up to natural gas ?

Can someone help with that .. ????

I am on oil ... but have access to natural gas.

[Ahneida Ride]

how about hooking up to natural gas ?

Can someone help with that .. ????

I am on oil ... but have access to natural gas.

Oil has gone from 0.80frn to 4.25 frns

as the national debt has also increased 4x

the non fed non reserve dilution tax is killing me.

[William]

No NG in my immediate area. How about burning FRN's? Who makes a furnace that runs on that?;)





William

[Hardlyrob]

We made the change as part of our insane remodel. Replaces a 1950's oil furnace with a 2004 propane unit. We run stove, HW and heat on propane. Propane is getting cheaper will all the gas from shale - we've seen the bills go down every year.

I also have a 200+ year old timber frame house. We just moved the furnace exhaust and did as suggested above. We were ripping apart the kitchen to start over and buried it in a stud cavity in the wall. That way we were able to meet code even with all the windows. Our code was only 2 feet - so it was doable. Give your town building inspector a call and get clarity on the code - 4 feet would be impossible for most homes to meet.

Cheers!

Rob

[Black Dog]

There are two issues I'm running into with venting:

One is code. If what the gentleman told me is correct, the vent pipe can't be within 3' of a window. We have multiple windows on every wall, and only one space that could work but is currently blocked by the existing oil tank in the basement.

Two is the sill plate. This house is over 230 years old and sits on a sill plate (large wood beam). He's telling me he would have to bore a (if I remember correctly) 3" - 4" hole through it to run a vent pipe. I'm not real crazy about that.

I just started to look over the Rinnais but I'm having trouble getting past the two points above.


William

He is right about the venting. You must be at least 3 feet from a window. No exceptions allowed. The concern is about vent gases entering the house through an open window.

As for a bore hole in the sill, I would not worry about it if it is done right. The inside of the bore hole must be primed and sealed and the outside of the penetration must be well caulked around the perimeter of the pipe exit. The assumption here is that a PVC pipe is being used on a power-vent appliance. Also, you can not run a vent like this into an existing chimney vent. You can, however, have very long runs with a power-vent appliance and this might allow you to be creative.

Being a licensed carpenter for the past 20 years my experience has taught me that if you are doing something and it will not outlast you and your grand kids then you should not do it. This I would do.

[Cat3roadracer]

We switched from oil to natrual gas about three years ago. Due to rebates offered by the Empire State, I went with a high effiency furnace and a tankless water heater. The rebate was about $1000 for both units. About a year before that I replaced all of the windows in my house, what a difference. 64 is toasty. Bills are a little more than half what they used to be.

[Louis]

How about insulating the house better (windows and attic, then walls if practical) and turning down the temp a bit? That should give you significant savings. Once you're done that (which will pay off regardless of the heating system) then you can consider changing from heating oil to something else.

[gearguywb]

I am in the propane business so I am a bit biased....having said that; I would convert in a minute. Cost is certainly one factor, along with far less chance of a spill, less smell, efficiency of the newer units, etc.

When I was in NC we installed 50+ Rinnai units in one year. I am a huge fan. When done correctly there was never a return call. The amount of potential savings by not continually heating a tank full of water that just sits is huge.

[William]

How about insulating the house better (windows and attic, then walls if practical) and turning down the temp a bit? That should give you significant savings. Once you're done that (which will pay off regardless of the heating system) then you can consider changing from heating oil to something else.

Already done as much as I can there.

What units are you all running/recommend?




William

[Louis]

The amount of potential savings by not continually heating a tank full of water that just sits is huge.

Except that in the winter you're not really wasting 100% of that "just sitting" energy, because it helps heat the house. Of course in the summer you have fight that with the A/C. (In my case, I turn the water heater off in the summer, so that's not an issue.)

[Black Dog]

Be carefull, the return on a tankless unit may not be as large as you think. There are a lot of factors to consider before assuming that a tankless unit is the way to go. I build LEED certified homes and net-zero energy homes and often a tank system is the way to go. Here (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm) is an article to give a basic primer on the issue. Don't forget that in a cold climate a tank has no net standing loss for cold seasons since the heat stays in the house and reduces your heat burden. Also the real world efficiency of new tanks are not much below the real world efficiency of tankless units. It is only 5-10%.

[William]

Thanks for the link!:cool:




William

[Dave]

I'm skeptical about huge savings with a tankless water heater when the cost to keep a 50 gallon unit heated, with little use, is about $18 a month, running off natural gas, in Colorado. That's the kind of gas bill I got after firing up the water heater, but not living in the house for a few months, while I was finishing it. The bill went up to $22 once we started living in the house, in August. I've got a hot water recirculating loop running from 6am to 10pm, that adds a little heat loss to the system, but it's sure nice to get instant hot water to any faucet or shower in the house. My heater has PVC pipe for intake and exhaust air, but I found out that unlike a furnace, the majority of these water heaters have low efficiencies. I thought about buying a high efficiency unit, but the extra cost is somewhere in the $900-1200 range. While it's enviromentally conscious to use the high efficiency heater, it might not save any money, over the life of the heater.

I had my new house far enough along last winter, so it was fully insulated and drywalled. The walls have R26 insulation and the ceiling is R60. With a Carrier Infiinity furnace, I heated the 3200 square foot ranch house, with full basement, but without water heater, for $100-125 per month. I also kept my 1800 square foot workshop heated to 55-60 degrees, included in that bill. The shop uses a slightly lower level Carrier furnace. I had no door between the house and my 650 square foot attached garage, so heat was escaping into that garage, also.

This year, I've moved into the house and all of the furnace zone controls are hooked up. I'll be interested to get my first bill, once it gets down to normally cold levels. It's been overly warm this year and my latest bill was $60.

The house can be seen in the upper left portion of this pic from Colorado Life magazine.

http://www.coloradolifemagazine.com/?attachment_id=622