Eddy Merckx Steel lugged frames

[cnighbor1]

Of all the Eddy Merckx Steel lugged frames which is the best
Exclude 70's frames
I like his frames but not sure of which to lust after. and perhaps buy
Thanks
Charles

[cash05458]

Of all the Eddy Merckx Steel lugged frames which is the best
Exclude 70's frames
I like his frames but not sure of which to lust after. and perhaps buy
Thanks
Charles

badass is the MXLeader...my opinion anyhow...

[ultraman6970]

IMO depends of what are you looking for in a frame.

From what I know some EM stuff rides pretty "put anything you want in here" like bike, other ones are just fast handling machines you know. So is hard to tell you what is what, the same happens with every manufacturer but maybe some newcomers european brands like bmc and ridley where practically you can race even with the crappies model they have because all of their bikes handle like racing bike. EMs are all over the spectrum so is hard to tell you w/o knowing what are you looking for in a bike.

For example a few days ago somebody was asking for a titanium EM made in the US, only from looking at the geometry you were able to tell the bike handling wasnt something I would have pick to race.

[jmoore]

The one that fits is the best is the one to get.

I have an MX Leader and a Strada OS. They are both fantastic even though the Strada is made from Brain tubing and is considered their lower end model. I may even prefer the Strada to the MXL (blasphemy to many).

IMO, as long as you don't weigh 240lbs and are trying to ride something made from SLX tubing, you are good to go with any of them.

[Steelman]

Of all the Eddy Merckx Steel lugged frames which is the best
Exclude 70's frames
I like his frames but not sure of which to lust after. and perhaps buy
Thanks
Charles


Lust after either:

1. The classics: SL, SLX or TSX or

2. More modern, but they have probably gained classic status by now: Brain, EL, Dedaccai Oversized, etc.

The SLX/TSX frames probably have the neatest paint jobs and the most chrome.

My personal favorite, the 10th Anny:

[rccardr]

Based on my knowledge of the type of riding you do, I think you'd be happy with an SLX Corsa Extra. Maybe a Professional. Lots of them out there and for a good reason

[zmudshark]

I'm partial to SL Professionals.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ExxoAlNyE-o/TuKFsXEf-pI/AAAAAAAAGlk/1LtCy6jaaEA/s800/P1020225.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RocP8VV7khw/T5A3-ax8CbI/AAAAAAAAHsU/gqpxniLJcOQ/s800/P1030183.JPG

[4Rings6Stars]

My MX leader is my favorite road bike to date. Haven't tried carbon yet...but I've had lots of steel (few other Merckxs), aluminum and a few ti frames come and go. MXL is the only steel roadie still here.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/telepciaka/Eddy%20Merckx%20MXL/IMG_0995.jpg

[martinrjensen]

I didn't post a pic right now but I have in the past and it's a 753 Professional. Great ride, definitely not overly stiff. I suppose it could be a Grand Prix model also, but going by the Cadre site info (re: serial numbers) it looks to be a Professional model (1985) as near as I can tell.

[cachagua]

I recently got a Corsa Extra. Didn't like the way it handled at first, it felt clumsy and uncooperative. Swapped to a fork with less rake, now it handles like a race bike should -- balanced but aggressive, just takes a light touch but totally solid at speed. I absolutely adore it now.

You might pick one of those up, and if you want to do like I did, I'll bet you could pick up a nice F1 from someone here. If you don't mind a thrashed paint job (mine's thoroughly chewed up), they're usually a pretty good bargain.

As I care less and less about weight, I also consider an MXL. My guess is I'd probably put an F1 in it, too. But the Corsa-01 looks awful tasty, too...

Now the question I wonder about is, was it *supposed* to handle like that, with the stock fork? Really, I wouldn't have kept it if I hadn't been able to improve it.

[lhuerta]

IMO depends of what are you looking for in a frame.

From what I know some EM stuff rides pretty tourish like bike, other ones are just fast handling machines you know. So is hard to tell you what is what, the same happens with every manufacturer but maybe some newcomers european brands like bmc and ridley where practically you can race even with the crappies model they have because all of their bikes handle like racing bike. EMs are all over the spectrum so is hard to tell you w/o knowing what are you looking for in a bike.

For example a few days ago somebody was asking for a titanium EM made in the US, only from looking at the geometry you were able to tell the bike handling wasnt somethimg I would have pick to race.


Ultraman, again, with the same business about "tourism" geometry on Merckx frames?? You are digging a deeper hole void of accurate information. Respectfully, Lou

[ultraman6970]

OK i will correct the posting for'ya :D

[rccardr]

The aforementioned CE:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/85%20Red%20Merckx%20Birthday%20Bike/85RedMerckrightsidedoorlarge.jpg
A very nice Corsa in SL, hard for me to differentiate the ride quality between these two:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/85%20Faema%20Merckx%2057cm/85MerckxFaema57cmrightside.jpg
(and I'm kinda partial to that red Regal, John!)
These three CE's in SLX didn't have the handling issues that cachagua mentioned, they worked fine for me. But then I'm an old geezer, what do I know?
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/88%20Merckx%20Corsa%20Extra%20RWB/88MerckxCorsaExtraRWBrightside.jpg
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/89%20Green%20Merckx%20CE/93GreenMerckxCErightsidepartialbuild.jpg
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Orange%20merckx%20Corsa%20Extra/Orangemerckxrightsidedoor.jpg

[Aaron O]

I think it's hard to get more iconic than this Merckx (decaled TSX, really 753), but if I wanted one to ride frequently, I'd go after MXL.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0556.jpg

[christian]

Charles, clearly the MX-L is the head of the pack! Now, if you ride a 57, talk to me about that pink Bruce Gordon. Let's make a deal!

[oldpotatoe]

Of all the Eddy Merckx Steel lugged frames which is the best
Exclude 70's frames
I like his frames but not sure of which to lust after. and perhaps buy
Thanks
Charles

MXLeader, I have 2, great for 'bigger' guys.

Merckx Century-one I don't have, only cuz it's rare and pretty.

BUT can't go wrong with Corsa or Corsa Extra. Not a fan of Corsa 01 or Arcebaleno(sp?).

[cachagua]

double posted

[cachagua]

...Hard for me to differentiate the ride quality between [SL and SLX]...

Blindfolded, could anybody? My impression has been they're right next to each other, within the whole spectrum of what steel tubes are like. But anybody who knows different, set me straight--

...Didn't have the handling issues that cachagua mentioned, but then I'm an old geezer...

HAAAAY! Don't take that away from me, so am I! In fact, I may simply have *forgotten* what the first fork felt like, when I put the second one in there...

And now, after those photos, I am in serious Merckx delirium. What a bunch of gorgeous machines! Charles, make sure to post pictures of whatever you end up buying--

[cachagua]

...Not a fan of Corsa 01...

Uh-oh, I was thinking I might want one. What don't you like about them?

[JLP]

Ultraman, again, with the same business about "tourism" geometry on Merckx frames?? You are digging a deeper hole void of accurate information. Respectfully, Lou

Sorry, but I've got to second this. I'm sure these bikes have been set up in all sorts of ways, but I've not seen Merckx bikes that were not racing bikes. I'm sure if you dig around you could find one, but just because something doesn't have a 74 degree head angle and short stays doesn't mean it is not a racing bike.

[witcombusa]

Sorry, but I've got to second this. I'm sure these bikes have been set up in all sorts of ways, but I've not seen Merckx bikes that were not racing bikes. I'm sure if you dig around you could find one, but just because something doesn't have a 74 degree head angle and short stays doesn't mean it is not a racing bike.

The only thing that makes a bike a "racing bike" is it being raced :banana:

[cachagua]

There does seem to be a fairly wide range of geometries in what's been for sale recently (if the sellers' figures are anything to go by) -- top tubes are sometimes longer and sometimes shorter than seat tubes, with no particular correlation to size or model that I've been able to discern. --Not that I'm the total Merckx scholar or anything, I've just been watching eBay for a few seasons.

And maybe all that means is that if one is pretty clear about liking a taller seat tube and a shorter top tube, or what have you, there's probably a Merckx to suit you out there somewhere.

[mistermo]

Uh-oh, I was thinking I might want one. What don't you like about them?

Don't listen to OP. While he may have impeccable taste in water bottle design, he's off here.

I've had at least two SLX Corsa Extras and one Corsa 01. In my mind, the 01 was far superior to the CEs. It's one of my two 'lifetime' bikes. Never ridden an MXL.

http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/i-2rB3zv3/0/L/IMGP6092-L.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/25404266_m5ZK95#!i=2090592638&k=2rB3zv3&lb=1&s=A)

http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/i-LD5PvhK/0/L/IMGP6083-L.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/25404266_m5ZK95#!i=2090590996&k=LD5PvhK&lb=1&s=A)

http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/i-89XFv7n/0/L/IMGP6089-L.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/25404266_m5ZK95#!i=2090628791&k=89XFv7n&lb=1&s=A)

[zmudshark]

There does seem to be a fairly wide range of geometries in what's been for sale recently (if the sellers' figures are anything to go by) -- top tubes are sometimes longer and sometimes shorter than seat tubes, with no particular correlation to size or model that I've been able to discern. --Not that I'm the total Merckx scholar or anything, I've just been watching eBay for a few seasons.

And maybe all that means is that if one is pretty clear about liking a taller seat tube and a shorter top tube, or what have you, there's probably a Merckx to suit you out there somewhere.

I believe the range in TT/ST lengths and angles you see are due to the fact that a lot of custom team bikes have been for sale lately. Most 'standard' Merckx are just that, standard.

The Corsa and Extra Corsa models are decidedly different than the Professional model. Never mind Leader and Gran Prix models.

[jet sanchez]

http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/i-2rB3zv3/0/L/IMGP6092-L.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/25404266_m5ZK95#!i=2090592638&k=2rB3zv3&lb=1&s=A)


Is this a re-paint?

[rccardr]

I haven't ridden a Corsa 01 yet, but have a lovely black/red/yellow/chrome one to build up over the winter.

I've heard people say that the Corsa 01 was the best frame Merckx ever produced in the later years- stiff like the MXL in all the good ways.

[mistermo]

Is this a re-paint?

Yes. Allan Wanta repaint of a blue 20th Anniv Corsa01 to 7-Eleven.

Before:
http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-Corsa-01/i-DMMTwq7/0/M/IMG_7512-M.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-Corsa-01/13073137_ZBP43c#!i=947195731&k=DMMTwq7&lb=1&s=A)


After:
http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/i-BzBHVKg/0/M/IMGP6098-M.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-7-Eleven/25404266_m5ZK95#!i=2090593119&k=BzBHVKg&lb=1&s=A)

[mistermo]

I haven't ridden a Corsa 01 yet, but have a lovely black/red/yellow/chrome one to build up over the winter.

I've heard people say that the Corsa 01 was the best frame Merckx ever produced in the later years- stiff like the MXL in all the good ways.

Like the MX, the Corsa01 has a shaped downtube at the BB to aid in stiffness. I've never ridden an MXL, so I can't comment. Those who have say it's heavy, but sublime. Any lugged steel bike isn't 'light', but I believe the Deda01 tubing is pretty light stuff, relatively speaking. Also have it on my cross bike.

"Ovalized" downtube:
http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-Corsa-01/i-ztXk8NT/0/M/IMG_7509-M.jpg (http://mistermo.smugmug.com/Cycling/Merckx-Corsa-01/13073137_ZBP43c#!i=947195080&k=ztXk8NT&lb=1&s=A)

[Epicus07]

There was a super sexy black and red one over in the classified section that i was sorely tempted to jump on.

[oldpotatoe]

Uh-oh, I was thinking I might want one. What don't you like about them?

Bought a scratched one from Gita..sent to Waterford for respray. As they do with ALL frames, put on frame table to make sure straight. Mine wasn't, twisted at the headtube. Tried to straighten it and the down tube popped out of the lug. Waterford was surprised as to the mitering(not really complete) and lack of solder...sooo....maybe the Corsa, Corsa Extra is the same but....no more Cosa 01 for me.

[gomango]

I'm down to a Corsa that doesn't fit me. :(

Bought it for my brother's birthday and he is a big galoot.

Didn't really fit him either.

Will list it in the classifieds one of these days.

I'm pretty lazy about this stuff.

Over the last 6 or 7 years I rolled through quite a few EMs, but my favorite was my Team Kelme Century.

Had a Corsa Extra that was fun as well, but she had some fascinating brazing issues with the bottom bracket.

Here's a pic of the Corsa and the Century.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6857607943_c71f3895e7_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7059/6858259203_3043b54d7b_b.jpg

[jet sanchez]

I haven't ridden a Corsa 01 yet, but have a lovely black/red/yellow/chrome one to build up over the winter.

I've heard people say that the Corsa 01 was the best frame Merckx ever produced in the later years- stiff like the MXL in all the good ways.

Hrmmmm, very interesting! I need another Merckx like I need a hole in the head but I have a line on a Corsa 01 in my size for a good price, maybe it will be a fun build.

Since we are posting up photos, here are my three Corsa Extras, all very different and not only due to paint but tubing. The tutti frutti is made of Columbus TSX, the Hitachi is made of Reynolds 653 and the Telekom has no sticker and a Leader fork so it could be anything (it is Olaf Ludwig's old rig).

They all ride nicely but I think I like the tutti frutti the most. I have no new photo but it has a 10 speed Record group on it now. The Team Hitachi is my girlfriend's bike
and she loves it.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/olaf1.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/tutti1.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/hitachi1.jpg

[cachagua]

Re: the misaligned and tube-falling-out Corsa 01--

Duly noted, thank you. I'd want to call that a quality-control thing, rather than a problem with design or materials, but all the same -- it's a data point.

My Corsa Extra is decidedly assembly-line-looking, rather than hand-built, but it rides great and I assume it would have fallen apart by now if it were going to. --One of the benefits of buying used! And somehow, the look matches the ride, it's a little raw, like a 39-degree headwind with sleet in it, in an April kermesse... bike's not f*ckin' around, it's got a job to do.

For gentlemanly centuries, I'm more likely to ride the CRL. But to stomp around the neighborhood for a couple of hours, to break a bad mood, nothing beats the Merckx.

[mistermo]

Bought a scratched one from Gita..sent to Waterford for respray. As they do with ALL frames, put on frame table to make sure straight. Mine wasn't, twisted at the headtube. Tried to straighten it and the down tube popped out of the lug. Waterford was surprised as to the mitering(not really complete) and lack of solder...sooo....maybe the Corsa, Corsa Extra is the same but....no more Cosa 01 for me.

With all due respect, that's a problem with that particular Merckx frame, not the Corsa01 model. Sounds like this could have happened with any other model or tubing too if the builder was hungover that day.

[oldpotatoe]

With all due respect, that's a problem with that particular Merckx frame, not the Corsa01 model. Sounds like this could have happened with any other model or tubing too if the builder was hungover that day.

I agree but personally, I'm not going to get another Deda-tubed Merckx.

Why I said, "maybe the Corsa, Corsa Extra is the same but....no more Corsa 01 for me".....

Besides I think a Merckx 'ought' to be of Columbus tubing...IMHO-

[texbike]

I had a Corsa 01 and absolutely loved it. It was smoooooooooth........

However, it didn't have the historical context or cool paint schemes of the other Merckxs and was sold to purchase a Corsa Extra with the 7-11 paint scheme.

As for handling, I've found my Merckxs to be just about perfect (with a slight edge to the MXL with its stiffer front end). I had the 7-11 CE in the Alps a couple of years ago and the downhill handling was perfect- stable, predictable, and it would hold a line perfectly.

Cheers,

Texbike

[wallymann]

i picked one up, painted a GAN-themed blue like the Arcobaleno, that i'm gettin repainted.

merckx spec'd the Thron tubeset with oversized top- and down-tubes but with standard (read: beefy) 9/6/9 butting like SL. also, the Thron chainstays look like MAX being highly ovalized top-to-bottom and similar oversize dimension and similar SL-esque thickness.

i cant wait to get it back from paint, im thinking it should ride like a max.

[bluesea]

Now you have me trolling eBay again. :bike:

[tiretrax]

Now you have me trolling eBay again. :bike:

x10,000! When I was in Seattle a few years ago, I visited a small bike shop, and there was a Molteni orange reproduction that Gita sold in the early 2000's. I kick myself for not buying it.

[FlashUNC]

Now you have me trolling eBay again. :bike:

Seriously. You people are evil. I've already been sucked into a Della Santa order. Now I'm looking at Domo-Lotto paint schemes and dreaming...

[cachagua]

Okay, how come I'm posting twice?

[cachagua]

58cm Strada OS on eBay just now, Brain tubing... the chainstays are huge vertically, and no bridge between them, not even the little vane between the sockets of the BB shell like most Corsas/Extras seem to have.

Is that the configuration of the Thron-tubed frame, too?

[wallymann]

58cm Strada OS on eBay just now, Brain tubing... the chainstays are huge vertically, and no bridge between them, not even the little vane between the sockets of the BB shell like most Corsas/Extras seem to have.

Is that the configuration of the Thron-tubed frame, too?

yep, same chainstay config. i think brain is a more high-tech tubeset with thinner walls, more like EL/OS. maybe even differential butted, a-la neuron or genius.

thron is basically an OS version of SL.

the OS chainstays are about as tall as the BB shell, a-la max:

http://brown-snout.com/cycling/bikes/merckx_corsa-os/WP_001743.jpg
http://brown-snout.com/cycling/bikes/merckx_corsa-os/WP_001746.jpg

[zmudshark]

Not to be argumentative, but Brain is a Cyclex steel, and is double butted. Genius and EL OS are Nivacrom steel.

[wallymann]

Not to be argumentative, but Brain is a Cyclex steel, and is double butted. Genius and EL OS are Nivacrom steel.

ok, so brain is cyclex like SL (and Thron?).

genius and EL are the newer nivacrom.

honestly, they're all steel...while there may be minor things that are different metallurgically, from a physics perspective they have the same modulus of elasticity so they'll all behave the same way in a tube with the same physical dimensions. genius and el are lighter because the are typically spec'd with a thinner wall and thus flexier, although they get some stiffness back with the larger OD in the OS variants.

[zmudshark]

ok, so brain is cyclex like SL (and Thron?).

genius and EL are the newer nivacrom.

honestly, they're all steel...while there may be minor things that are different metallurgically, from a physics perspective they have the same modulus of elasticity so they'll all behave the same way in a tube with the same physical dimensions. genius and el are lighter because the are typically spec'd with a thinner wall and thus flexier, although they get some stiffness back with the larger OD in the OS variants.

Different metals have different modulus of elasticity. Are you really saying CroMo is the same as Ultrafoco? Except thinner? Molecules matter. Yes, steel is steel but there are other variables.

[wallymann]

Different metals have different modulus of elasticity. Are you really saying CroMo is the same as Ultrafoco? Except thinner? Molecules matter. Yes, steel is steel but there are other variables.

thats exactly what i'm saying. the alloying materials in modern steel tubesets are a tiny fraction of the overall alloy composition, primarily affecting things like hardness and ultimate tensile strength. making up a trivial % of the overall composition, they have no material effect on the modulus-of-elasticity of the final product. they're all basically "the same" -- high strength steel.

if you put 3 tubes in a fixture, one of SL one of 531 and one of ultrafoco -- all with the *exact* same physical dimensions/specifications, they will all have the same deflection given the same load.

edit/addendum: this is largely an academic debate, as i dont think you can find an SL and ultrafoco tubeset with the exact same physical specs. the ultrafoco alloying materials allow them to change the physical dimensions in a way to make them an interesting alternative to regular steels (i.e., made with larger ODs and thinner walls and shorter butts), thus lighter while still maintaining comparable stiffness while still being safe and relatively durable.

[zmudshark]

thats exactly what i'm saying. the alloying materials in modern steel tubesets are a tiny fraction of the overall alloy composition, primarily affecting things like hardness and ultimate tensile strength. making up a trivial % of the overall composition, they have no material effect on the modulus-of-elasticity of the final product. they're all basically "the same" -- high strength steel.

if you put 3 tubes, one of SL one of 531 and one of ultrafoco -- all with the *exact* same physical dimensions/specifications, in a fixture they will all have the same deflection given the same load.
Except they don't have the *exact* same dimensions/specifications. Therein lies the rub.

There are other factors to be considered.

[wallymann]

Except they don't have the *exact* same dimensions/specifications. Therein lies the rub.

yep, as i noted in my edit/addendum. however, my main point about the modulus-of-elasticity of the steels is correct.

i have yet to ride one of these nouveau super-light steel bikes, i wonder how they ride compared to my preferred SL/SP blend. i have a hunch they'd be lighter and probably whippier, maybe ride more like the 531 frames i've had but weighing a couple pounds less. also probably less crash-survivability, too (thinner walls, more brittle heat-treated or air-hardened metals).

[zmudshark]

yep, as i noted in my edit/addendum. however, my main point about the modulus-of-elasticity of the steels is correct.

i have yet to ride one of these nouveau super-light steel bikes, i wonder how they ride compared to my preferred SL/SP blend. i have a hunch they'd be lighter and probably whippier, maybe ride more like the 531 frames i've had but weighing a couple pounds less. also probably less crash-survivability, too (thinner walls, more brittle heat-treated or air-hardened metals).

I have a bike made from Ultrafoco. It is none of those things except lighter. In fact, I have gone down hard and another friend actually had a massive heart attack while riding his and crashed real hard (He's fine, now). No damage to the bikes, remarkably. Whippier? Not by a long shot.

They make new steel for a reason. It works.

[Fivethumbs]

I think the point is that the new steels were made so that the wall thickness could be thinner to save weight. The diameter then needed to be increased to prevent excessive flexibility. The combination of wall thickness and diameter is why Ultrafoco rides good, probably not because it's got Niobium in it. The Niobium just keeps it from breaking. By the way, I researched this quite a few years ago and the information I found said Brain is made of Cyclex main tubes with chromoly stays and Thron is double butted plain chromoly (like Cromor). I also agree with what Wallyman said: a Brain or Thron tubeset that is 9-5-9 would ride the same as Foco that is 9-5-9. Columbus calls these steels microalloys.

[zmudshark]

I think the point is that the new steels were made so that the wall thickness could be thinner to save weight. The diameter then needed to be increased to prevent excessive flexibility. The combination of wall thickness and diameter is why Ultrafoco rides good, probably not because it's got Niobium in it. The Niobium just keeps it from breaking. By the way, I researched this quite a few years ago and the information I found said Brain is made of Cyclex main tubes with chromoly stays and Thron is double butted plain chromoly (like Cromor). I also agree with what Wallyman said: a Brain or Thron tubeset that is 9-5-9 would ride the same as Foco that is 9-5-9. Columbus calls these steels microalloys.

The thing is, the steels are not drawn to the same thickness. Here is the Columbus page with current tubesets: http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/4_4.htm

Spirit is drawn to .38 (Same as Ultrafoco), Zona to .5, Brain was .6, similar to today's Chromor (not exactly, though). They all have different properties, and ride differently.