Fugly Alert: SRAM Red Hydraulic Disc Brakes

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/sram-red-hydraulic-disc-brakes-first-look

Pics speak for themselves . . . Yuck.

:eek: :crap:

BBD

[54ny77]

beat ya to it!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1253025&postcount=46

[BumbleBeeDave]

Gott quit sleeping at my desk . . . :p

BBD

[Chance]

Looks like a large-size disc. Hard to tell from picture though.

[Rada]

I don't remember if I've seen anything so hideous on a bike. Not sure why the reviewer would think "placing the pivot point far away from the handlebar" would be a good thing. If you have small hands the design is pretty poor. Any chance it's adjustable? Not that I really care as there is not a chance in hell that those things will ever disgrace a bike of mine.

[gavingould]

they don't look all that different on the bike in person. some of the SRAM guys (engineers etc) here in Chicagohave been racing cross on them for a while.

[vqdriver]

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/dockside-chat/204140d1321803034-isnt-guy-15548_aliengenitalia_conehead_l1.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/sram-red-hydraulic-disc-brakes-first-look

Pics speak for themselves . . . Yuck.

:eek: :crap:

BBD

In the pit for a front wheel change..bike falls over, lands on the lever, pads squirt out, fluid squirts out....ooopps.

There are advantages to cross discs just like on MTBs..but hydraulic for cross racing?

Instant stop, small tire patch, fall down.

[vqdriver]

i don't cross but from what i've read, it's the ability to stop/slow consistently thru nasty conditions that would otherwise foul the rim's brake track. fair enough, but i suppose you could address that with cable discs as well....

[monkeybanana86]

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/dockside-chat/204140d1321803034-isnt-guy-15548_aliengenitalia_conehead_l1.jpg

I was just about to post the same thing LOL

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTM3NDg1MTkzMl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjcwMDgyMQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR3,0,214,317_.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

they don't look all that different on the bike in person. some of the SRAM guys (engineers etc) here in Chicago have been racing cross on them for a while.

Yep, but they gotta.

[blantonator]

haters gonna hate. the 6700/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

[gdw]

Hydraulic discs require a reservior and there isn't any extra space in mechanical road levers so you can expect to see fugly designs from all the players. It will be interesting to see how long it will take to develope a design which works reliably.

[gavingould]

Yep, but they gotta.

ha! true...

the shop owner where i put in a few hours a week was racing on a mech disc bike most of the season and was able to get his hands on the Hope V-Twin (http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG343) - there's a very significant difference in modulation and a lot less rubbing of pads/rotor (when off the brakes) since the pads move on both sides.

[Rada]

haters gonna hate. the 6700/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

Really? So you like these SRAM things?

[fourflys]

I'm a SRAM guy and even I gotta say those lever are pretty hideous... I gotta wonder though if there is really any other option for a reservoir on a road brake lever...

[bluesea]

What is this picture trying to illustrate with the strange handhold?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/sram-red-hydraulic-disc-brakes-first-look/245333

[Ken Robb]

BMW motorcycles with early disc brake systems used cables from the levers on the bars to remotely mounted master cylinders and that might work for bicycles.

[hokoman]

haters gonna hate. the 6700/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

Did you mean 6600? The 6700 looks good IMO. The hydro levers look pretty bad.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm a SRAM guy and even I gotta say those lever are pretty hideous... I gotta wonder though if there is really any other option for a reservoir on a road brake lever...

There is but only on a shifter that doesn't have shift guts inside..re-electronic. shimano has announced they will have wet cross brakes in 2014..expect a more sanitary lever.

[oldpotatoe]

BMW motorcycles with early disc brake systems used cables from the levers on the bars to remotely mounted master cylinders and that might work for bicycles.

Been done.

http://www.cyclocrossworld.com/hope-v-twin-remote-hydraulic-disc-brakes

Not exactly elegant but better lookin than the sram rayguns.

[shovelhd]

haters gonna hate. the 6700/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

Two completely different designs and shapes.

[wallymann]

I don't remember if I've seen anything so hideous on a bike. Not sure why the reviewer would think "placing the pivot point far away from the handlebar" would be a good thing. If you have small hands the design is pretty poor. Any chance it's adjustable? Not that I really care as there is not a chance in hell that those things will ever disgrace a bike of mine.

the pivot isnt too abnormally located, that big bulge is the actual hydraulic master-cylinder that is compressed by the lever. the challenge is packaging...trying to stuff the mechanics of the master-cylinder into a lever body that is already crammed with the shifting mech. that big lump isnt too different from modern campy ergo levers (which i'm not too keen on aesthetically anyways).

SRAM's master-cyl is actually similar to main-stream motorcycle master-cylinders (the curved bar forces the m/c out high on the SRAM). modern sport motorcycles are moving towards a "radial" master-cylinder design, where the lever acts directly on it, formula's design is more like this.

here's SRAM's fugly RED master-cylinder:
http://brown-snout.com/cycling/tech/sram-hydro-lever.jpg

here's campy's current cable-actuated ergo levers (furthest to the left), not too different eh?
http://ruedatropical.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/levers12158.jpg

here's formula's and TRP's much neater "radial" master-cylinder -- being designed for EPS/Di2 gives much more flexibility with packaging:
http://brown-snout.com/cycling/tech/formula-hydro-lever.jpg
http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TRP-HyWire-di2-integrated-hydraulic-disc-road-brakes01.jpg

[shovelhd]

Holy downshift, Batman.

[Kirk Pacenti]

If they had just rotated the master cylinder inboard by 90* with the hose exiting the lever like old shimano STI cables, these wouldn't look so bad. That could potentially have offered an additional hand position as well.

But a remote master cylinder would probably have been better still.

Cheers,
KP

[David Kirk]

I assume they are shaped the way they are as they need to fit in the shifter stuff and can't go sideways with the master due to UCI regulations. This just left them with up the only way to go.

I wonder how well they work. Last I checked this somewhat mattered.

dave

[gavingould]

direct reports (yeah, i know, from SRAM guys) is that they're pretty awesome.

Tim Johnson and Jeremy Powers seem to like them as well.

[Chance]

The upright lever extensions may serve as a means to hold the bars in a semi-tribar position with forearms resting on bar tops. Could get over the looks if that was the only problem. Besides, many things that first appear odd grow on us over time.

[tiretrax]

It looks to me as though someone that doesn't have an NBA player-sized hand will have trouble managing those levers.



here's formula's and TRP's much neater "radial" master-cylinder -- being designed for EPS/Di2 gives much more flexibility with packaging:
http://brown-snout.com/cycling/tech/formula-hydro-lever.jpg
http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TRP-HyWire-di2-integrated-hydraulic-disc-road-brakes01.jpg

[tiretrax]

Fixed it for you. I agree, but if they are mounted lower on the handlebar, they aren't so bad. The redesign for 6700/7900 is much more attractive.

haters gonna hate. the 6600/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

[slidey]

Thanks for the laugh! :rolleyes:

haters gonna hate. the 6700/7800 levers are the ugliest things on the planet.

[EDS]

If it said campy on the front all the naysayers would be cooing over its elegance.

[wallymann]

no-can do. the axis of the master-cylinder must be perpendicular to the brake-lever pivot axis. well, i guess you could add a rube-goldberg-inspired additional pivot to change the direction of the force to align inward. but generally, good design wants the force of the lever to be as direct as possible on the master-cylinder.

no such thing as a "remote master cylinder". there are "slave cylinders" but those are the cylinders that receive the fluid pressure from the master and clamp on the brake rotors.

If they had just rotated the master cylinder inboard by 90* with the hose exiting the lever like old shimano STI cables, these wouldn't look so bad. That could potentially have offered an additional hand position as well.

But a remote master cylinder would probably have been better still.

Cheers,
KP

[slidey]

No need for sweeping generalisations.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm a Shimano user...and I don't find Campy's antiquated look/futuristic prices appealing at any level. Neither do I like the dual-tone look of the DA7900, and I've always found SRAM Red to be too shouty and this latest contraption is outright hideous.

If it said campy on the front all the naysayers would be cooing over its elegance.

[crankles]

If they work as well as the hydraulics on my MTB, I'll think they are the most beautiful lever in existence! I've tried all the other hydraulic cx options so far (except the formula/di2) and 324labs is still on top which also uses formula calipers, but it's a *messy* setup...as are the trp/hope options IMHO

[pdmtong]

If they work as well as the hydraulics on my MTB, I'll think they are the most beautiful lever in existence! I've tried all the other hydraulic cx options so far (except the formula/di2) and 324labs is still on top which also uses formula calipers, but it's a *messy* setup...as are the trp/hope options IMHO

+1

not a fan of the look but like dave kirk says, I dont think they had many choices

but, if they do indeed work, I could care less about the look. getting that stopping power in the wet and slop - i will make that trade anyday....

[wallymann]

that big meaty lump out there will be a great perch to get stretched out and motor on the big ring!

same goes for the formulas, plus they're easy on the eyes. ;-)

[Hawker]

I guess I'm just too old school. For Cross and Mountain bikes guess I can see the advantage, but for road bikes is this a solution looking for a problem?

[rice rocket]

I guess I'm just too old school. For Cross and Mountain bikes guess I can see the advantage, but for road bikes is this a solution looking for a problem?

The pics are from a cross bike.

[cachagua]

Waitaminute, all the thinking goes on in the levers? And there's a physical, actual *hose* that's got to run down to the wheel?

That is SO twentieth century. Hello, Mister Sram? Wireless.

All the cool kids are doing it.

[oldpotatoe]

I guess I'm just too old school. For Cross and Mountain bikes guess I can see the advantage, but for road bikes is this a solution looking for a problem?

Yes..now in cross, soon to be on 'enthusiasts' road bikes. Another MTB innovation that is trying to stuff itself into the road market.

Answers no question, solves no problem for the large majority of road bikes. It has been embraced by some who 'can't wait' to get 'em on their road machine. Expensive, complicated, limited utility(small tire patch), cooling has not been solved. Frame/fork design will have to change, on the same level as when rear ders came into the market, IMHO.

Carbon wheels and wearing out rims are not 'reasons' to jump into this fray.

IMHO-

"I have discs on my road bike. 622mm rotor, synthetic rubber brake pads. Light, cheap, easy to adjust, easy to modulate, very strong."

[bluesea]

^ I agree with your encrusted analysis.

[Llewellyn]

Yes..now in cross, soon to be on 'enthusiasts' road bikes. Another MTB innovation that is trying to stuff itself into the road market.

Answers no question, solves no problem for the large majority of road bikes. It has been embraced by some who 'can't wait' to get 'em on their road machine. Expensive, complicated, limited utility(small tire patch), cooling has not been solved. Frame/fork design will have to change, on the same level as when rear ders came into the market, IMHO.

Carbon wheels and wearing out rims are not 'reasons' to jump into this fray.

IMHO-

"I have discs on my road bike. 622mm rotor, synthetic rubber brake pads. Light, cheap, easy to adjust, easy to modulate, very strong."

Hear, hear. :hello:

[Seott-e]

On my mtn bike I wouldn't ues anything but Disc, but why do we need or want them on road bikes !?

[JayBay]

You know what I look forward to with road discs? Not having to clean my rims after riding in the rain. The brake dust smooge takes forever to clean from my rims after a good rain ride. Just sayin.

[nightfend]

I look forward to carbon clinchers that won't suck in the rain.

[oldpotatoe]

I look forward to carbon clinchers that won't suck in the rain.

Put yer crappy weather, wet weather(aluminum) wheels on...go ride. They weigh the same as the carbon clinchers anyway and if it's rainin' no aero anyway.

[bicycletricycle]

If it said campy on the front all the naysayers would be cooing over its elegance.

this is a stupid comment.

[Ken Robb]

Carbon wheels and wearing out rims are not 'reasons' to jump into this fray.

IMHO-

"I have discs on my road bike. 622mm rotor, synthetic rubber brake pads. Light, cheap, easy to adjust, easy to modulate, very strong."

I had to read this twice to understand "synthetic Rubber brake pads".:banana:

[Epicus07]

Reminds me of the early Mavic Electronic shifters.

[EDS]

this is a stupid comment.

Fail. Sarcasm 101.

[bicycletricycle]

:)

[EDS]

:)

Obviously it is ugly, but if you want mechanical shifting and hydraulic brakes reality is what it is. Most people would agree, for example, that the Shimano 7800 shifters are "fugly" but they work so life goes on.

[Mark McM]

Put yer crappy weather, wet weather(aluminum) wheels on...go ride. They weigh the same as the carbon clinchers anyway and if it's rainin' no aero anyway.

That's completely untrue - in fact, the reason that the fastest race times are often set in damp, wet conditions, is due to aerodynamics. Damp, humid air is less dense than dry air, and results in lower aerodynamic drag.

[bluesea]

Sasha Grey would probably love those hoods--just say'in.

[oldpotatoe]

That's completely untrue - in fact, the reason that the fastest race times are often set in damp, wet conditions, is due to aerodynamics. Damp, humid air is less dense than dry air, and results in lower aerodynamic drag.

If the air pressure is the same and you add moisture to that air..isn't the total air denser? Plus the road is wet so rolling resistance is higher...

I always thought the boys at Mexico city trying to set the hour record wanted still, dry, cool air.

[Chance]

If the air pressure is the same and you add moisture to that air..isn't the total air denser? Plus the road is wet so rolling resistance is higher...

I always thought the boys at Mexico city trying to set the hour record wanted still, dry, cool air.

If viewed as a perfect gas and compare molecular weight: H2O is 18, O2 is 32, and N2 is 28. Air is mostly nitrogen at 28, so adding water vapor at 18 should reduce density given same temperature and pressure.

Mexico City is about low pressure due to elevation. Dry and cool may help human body maintain a high effort without overheating.

[Mark McM]

If the air pressure is the same and you add moisture to that air..isn't the total air denser? Plus the road is wet so rolling resistance is higher...

Nope, since water molecules (H20) are lighter than air molecules (primarily N2 and O2), humid air (high percentage of water vapor) is lighter than dry air. As a pilot, you should know that under high humidity conditions (such as in the tropics) density altitude has to be corrected for humidity. Here's a publication on the Navy.Mil web site about it:

FAQ: How is Density Altitude corrected for Humidity (http://www.netc.navy.mil/nascweb/sas/files/DA.pdf)

A quote from the above publication:

"The above equation yields the approximate value for a dry density altitude (DA). Changes in the water vapor content, also known as Humidity, also affect the density of the air. As humidity increases, water molecules with less mass and approximately the same volume as air molecules displace the more dense air molecules to make the same overall volume contain less actual mass. Thus, an increase in humidity leads to a decrease in air density. Moisture in the air can be slightly beneficial in controlling engine temperature, but generally tends to be detrimental to engine performance.

"The current philosophy on how to handle the effect of moisture on density altitude varies from no adjustment whatsoever to the rule of thumb, adopted by numerous NATOPS manuals, of adding 100 feet to your density altitude (based on pressure altitude-PA and outside air temperature-OAT), for every 10% relative humidity when the OAT is greater than 70 oF. Some manuals state that the relative humidity (RH) correction doesn't go into effect until the RH is above 40%. A comparison of the three commonly used methods to compute DA indicates that a significant variation exists between the chosen methods.

"For example, if we assume an OAT of 30°C (86 °F), PA of sea level and Relative Humidity of 100% (corresponding to a Dew Point of 30°C).
DA is calculated to be 1800 feet based on the DA chart using PA and an uncorrected OAT.

"100 foot-10% RH rule: for 100% RH the DA is increased by 1000 feet
Wet DA = 1800 +1000 = 2800 ft

"40% RH Rule: 100%-40% = 60%, therefore this adds 600 ft.
Wet DA = 1800 + 600 = 2400 ft."


As far as the rolling resistance on wet roads: Many people have noted that racing times decreased on wet roads, and assumed that there was less rolling resistance due to a more slippery surface. However, I'm not sure that's the actual reason - I suspect the real reason for the lower times is from lower air density - afterall, road won't stay wet unless there is high air humidity.

[oldpotatoe]

Nope, since water molecules (H20) are lighter than air molecules (primarily N2 and O2), humid air (high percentage of water vapor) is lighter than dry air. As a pilot, you should know that under high humidity conditions (such as in the tropics) density altitude has to be corrected for humidity. Here's a publication on the Navy.Mil web site about it:

FAQ: How is Density Altitude corrected for Humidity (http://www.netc.navy.mil/nascweb/sas/files/DA.pdf)

A quote from the above publication:

"The above equation yields the approximate value for a dry density altitude (DA). Changes in the water vapor content, also known as Humidity, also affect the density of the air. As humidity increases, water molecules with less mass and approximately the same volume as air molecules displace the more dense air molecules to make the same overall volume contain less actual mass. Thus, an increase in humidity leads to a decrease in air density. Moisture in the air can be slightly beneficial in controlling engine temperature, but generally tends to be detrimental to engine performance.

"The current philosophy on how to handle the effect of moisture on density altitude varies from no adjustment whatsoever to the rule of thumb, adopted by numerous NATOPS manuals, of adding 100 feet to your density altitude (based on pressure altitude-PA and outside air temperature-OAT), for every 10% relative humidity when the OAT is greater than 70 oF. Some manuals state that the relative humidity (RH) correction doesn't go into effect until the RH is above 40%. A comparison of the three commonly used methods to compute DA indicates that a significant variation exists between the chosen methods.

"For example, if we assume an OAT of 30°C (86 °F), PA of sea level and Relative Humidity of 100% (corresponding to a Dew Point of 30°C).
DA is calculated to be 1800 feet based on the DA chart using PA and an uncorrected OAT.

"100 foot-10% RH rule: for 100% RH the DA is increased by 1000 feet
Wet DA = 1800 +1000 = 2800 ft

"40% RH Rule: 100%-40% = 60%, therefore this adds 600 ft.
Wet DA = 1800 + 600 = 2400 ft."


As far as the rolling resistance on wet roads: Many people have noted that racing times decreased on wet roads, and assumed that there was less rolling resistance due to a more slippery surface. However, I'm not sure that's the actual reason - I suspect the real reason for the lower times is from lower air density - afterall, road won't stay wet unless there is high air humidity.

Zzzzzz
or

wow, I'm all worn out.

I flew jets with almost 40,000 pounds of thrust, density altitude wasn't really an issue, particularly when flying around the ship. But thanks for finding a NATOPS section that talked about it.

Mostly for the weaklings flying civilian bug smashers or those who 'flared to land, squatted to pee'(USAF).

JUST Kidding!!!

But I don't think wet discs with carbon rims on wet roads..as small as that segment is...is a reason to have wet disc brakes.

[cachagua]

...Damp, humid air is less dense than dry air, and results in lower aerodynamic drag.

Source or reference on that? I'd like to find out more.

Rolling resistance on wet pavement vs. dry, there's another question.

[Mark McM]

Source or reference on that? I'd like to find out more.

Here's a story from Cycling news about how records were set at the Athens Olympic games due to the heat and humidity:

Humidity, heat and speed: Why track records are falling at Athens (http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=features/aug21humidity)

From personal experience, our club has been holding weekly time trials for years. In addition to recording times, the weather conditions each week (including temperature and humidity) are also recorded. Many riders in the club do the time trial on a weekly basis all season long, so trends in their times can be compared to weather conditions. The data clearly shows that rider's times drop on humid days, and go up on dry days.