Name this taper

[danielpack22@ma]

All right, I'm confused. I have a new-to-me bike with a Phil Wood bb. It is supposed to be ISO, but the spindle length measures 123mm. I can't find where Phil ever made a 123mm in ISO taper. In addition, it measures the same (end of spindle dimensions, distance from end to taper shoulder) as a White Industries JIS bottom bracket.

What do you think? :help:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8338/8250162450_f27e628e07_o.jpg

[cachagua]

Mount your cranks, and if they don't fit, it's the wrong size.

No, all kidding aside: I don't know what the end of a White Industries cartridge looks like, but if it's the same as a Phil, then could this be a White cartridge held in place with Phil mounting rings?

If you've got the tool to fit those rings, ...well, I like to fondle everything I've just bought, so I'd want to pull the BB regardless.

Nice looking frame, what we can see of it -- what'dja get?

[ultraman6970]

That thing is jis... the way to know is because the cut in ISO is more angular. For example the flat part in jis is almost like a rectangle. in ISO you can tell is not a rectangle.

Another way to know is because the corners in jis are almost the same size all the way in, in iso you can tell right on the spot the difference between the the outside and the inside of the corner cut of the axle.

For the one that say if it doesnt fit.... well a iso crankset will fit into a jis axle w/o any problem (the opposite is true too) the problem is that the iso crank will seat deeper. If you arent anal about it you can use that w/o if the chainline is ok.

For the anals, you shouldnt do this because the crank might fail blah blah, well probably you will have problems the next 60 years and probably by then the frame or the cranks will be long gone. Not the right thing to do but it can be done.

[danielpack22@ma]

Thanks guys!

Cachagua - I'm certain that the cartridge is a Phil. I can actually read "Phil" engraved on the bb looking down the seat tube. And it doesn't hurt that a previous owner slapped a Phil sticker on the down tube at the bb. ;) The frame is a Matt Chester that passed through here a while back. I picked it up on ebay last month.

Ultraman - it had a standard Chorus crank set installed when I bought it, but the clearance was minimal. Especially when I tried a Centaur compact crank. I have a White Industries crank set that I'd much rather use, so I expect I'll see how it mounts.

Thanks again!
dp

[oliver1850]

I measured a Chorus and a lower end Shimano. Both measured the same at the small end of the taper. The taper on the Shimano is .025" longer than the Chorus, but JIS is supposed to be shorter. I don't have a Phil to measure without pulling a crank, and I would only be able to assume that it's ISO because it has a Campy crank on it.

I would contact Phil and ask if there's a measurable difference between the 2 standards, as manufactured by them. They should be able to give you a dimension at the small end of the taper.

[Ralph]

If you pull the BBH out, want it say somewhere on it what it is? It needs to come out, so you can regrease the cup threads....so it won't freeze in there.

[bicycletricycle]

JIS

no reason to make an ISO that long, i dont think any cranks ever needed that configuration.

[oliver1850]

What Sheldon says is the opposite, ISO is longer:

"ISO square taper spindles run longer, and taper down to a smaller end than J.I.S. spindles do. Most European-made square taper cranks and bottom brackets use the ISO dimensions."

It wouldn't be the first thing that's not accurate on Sheldon's site. I've never been able to find the actual specs for ISO and JIS tapers. There seems to be quite a bit of varience between different manufacturers on length and small end dimmension.

[cp43]

Velo Orange has a pretty good article on bottom brackets:

http://support.velo-orange.com/#bbarticle.html


Chris

[bicycletricycle]

the taper is longer, not the spindle. i was talking about the spindle length, 123mm

[gregj]

The spindle length (123mm) has nothing to do with the taper, and since Phil can make any length with any taper, I don't think you can answer this question based on the spindle length.

I second the suggestion to email Phil (they responded to me within a couple of days) and see if they can ID the taper based on the picture or give you some dimension to measure.

Greg

[oliver1850]

the taper is longer, not the spindle. i was talking about the spindle length, 123mm

I get your reasoning now. Shimano must have made cranks that take a 123 mm length, as I have a boxful of their 123 BBs. I have not seen an ISO crank that needs a spindle longer than 116, but don't have much knowledge about Campy stuff made prior to 1990, or other ISO brands.

[ultraman6970]

If you get a shorter BB axle it might work as well... for example 5 mm of difference between axles that looks like a lot translate in 2.5 mm per side and thats not that much. Many guys goes for catalogs and pretty much with a 112 symmetric axle you can clear almost any crank w/o any problem.

Just telling you in case you find something shorter you know.

[danielpack22@ma]

If you pull the BBH out, want it say somewhere on it what it is? It needs to come out, so you can regrease the cup threads....so it won't freeze in there.

That makes way too much sense. :rolleyes:

So I did, and here's what I found.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8204/8251627444_ac569aee9a_o.jpg

I'll send this to Phil Wood and see what they have to say.

Thanks everyone!

dp

[danielpack22@ma]

Just received a response from Phil Wood.

They say it is a Campagnolo tapered spindle.

Thanks everyone!

dp

[Hindmost]

Just received a response from Phil Wood.

They say it is a Campagnolo tapered spindle.

Thanks everyone!

dp

I have to ask: What Campagnolo crankset takes a 123?

[Don49]

On-line Phil catalog lists a Campy 120mm but no 123 except in JIS.

[oliver1850]

I have to ask: What Campagnolo crankset takes a 123?

Interesting question. If someone doesn't come up with an example, I'm going to have to look through all the old catalogs.

[Don49]

I have to ask: What Campagnolo crankset takes a 123?
http://velobase.com/resource_tools/toolscharts.aspx

NR Triple 77-87 BSC 68mm 123mm Thin Cup

[Louis]

I can name that taper in 4mm. ;)

[sean]

Just an FYI. Phil has a photo on their site that shows the visual differences between tapers.

http://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/spndltyp.jpg