Serotta Brand Should Die?

[charliedid]

Time to kill the brand?

Maybe it's just me but the name Serotta has only ever been synonymous with some of the best made bikes in the world, and bad dentist jokes. At this point I don't think that legacy is good enough to rebuild the brand. Serotta and Ben himself never seemed to have much mystique in the way other builders or companies have. I'm thinking e-Ritchie, Fat City, Merlin, Ritchey, Ibis, Salsa, etc.

They didn't build better bikes, but they certainly created something that people related to and wanted to be a part of. An ethic or lifestyle if you will, that said something like... bikes are cool, we love bikes, it's what we make and we hope you like and ride the hell out of them. People knew something about these people as leaders of a clan. For whatever reason (at least for me) and many other people I know, and have known over the years, Serrota was just kind of a boring Co. This includes dirt-bag 20 somethings right along with the well heeled lawyer or dentist, and some of them even owned, loved and rode the hell out of them. But at the end of the day over beers or sitting around with the mechanics after work, nobody ever dreamed about or talked about Serotta the way they talked about Charlie Cunningham or Paul Sadoff or Cook Bros. racing. Ben and Serotta were just that Co. that quietly made great bikes for racers and Olympians and that just wasn't enough. The only image of Ben anybody ever had was a picture of him in a black T-shirt and welding glasses with a blank expression on his face.

Maybe it's time for Bill and Ben to revisit the marketing side of things and how they represent themselves. If what they are pushing is the self titled "best bikes on the planet" to 50+ baby boomers with deep pockets then I think they will fail again. They need 30 year old people in bike shops riding these things and telling their friends and customers how freekin great they are....and they need to get out in this great big country with a few vans and a crap load of these brilliant bikes, and market the hell out of them in all ways possible from the ground up. Blog posts about maneuvering military ships as metaphors of business accumen won't do it.

Kill the name Serotta...call yourself Saratoga Bicycle Works or something and hire the best young marketing team from NYC you can afford.

Good luck and keep building great bikes.

[sc53]

Jeez, kinda harsh.

[Elefantino]

Don't kill the patient yet, Dr. Kevorkian.

[bicycletricycle]

well, i think that they would be hard pressed to create a new brand name with as much value as the one they currently have.

a really nice website (current website is not very good, style or substance) would help.

i think that they need to spend a lot more time documenting their process. They really spend a lot of time on the bikes the make, ti or carbon, in ways that "normal" people cant see but might get excited about (if they are a little geeky)

The machining processes they use for the tubes and lugs on the carbon really do make for a much better fit of the components and thus a better bicycle.

A PR campaign focused on refreshing the image of serotta would go a lot further than a rebadge.

IMHO

[dekindy]

It is a good thing you don't know what you are talking about cause it would be very sad if you did.

[nicrump]

what do black t-shirt wearing dirt innovators have to do with the serotta brand?

nothing.

this discussion should be moved to the bmxmuseum.org site where it could possibly gain traction.

ps. i wish some damn tubes would show up so i could stop making a fool of myself on the internet.

[DHallerman]

Oh, but as a means to inspire discussion -- not so much here, as within Serotta -- this post really touches on marketing elements needed. Not something to be followed exactly, such as the name change, but as incentive.

Remember: good marketing isn't a lie, but instead a way to better expose your real (company) self to the world.

And considering the new Serotta prez reads this forum now, or at least posts here, this post is a good catalyst.

Dave, who believes a little provocateur energy is often a jumpstarter

[charliedid]

Actually, the Fondo & Pronto bikes might prove that they are already thinking that way...

[nicrump]

but we already have 30 other threads on the topic of their marketing.

[cmg]

get cycling mags to do reviews of the latest frames.

[charliedid]

Harsh maybe...but.

Mine was not a Ad Hom. Attack on Serotta only my personal experience and thoughts.

Please read what I wrote and digest it before taking any of this too personally. We are talking about a great Co.trying to rebrand and save itself not a pissing match between people who think they "know".

Some good thoughts already and sure the idea of Killing it is extreme but it's really just food for thought. Maybe the Serotta brand it the high end cutting edge stuff and a new brand (whatever it's name) could sell production bikes and meet the needs of those less fortunate financially. Think Honey and Seven.

Take it easy.

[malcolm]

I suspect you are fairly young or new to cycling as in past decade or so. There was a time when many fast/fit folks lusted for a serotta. It was the bike that steered my desires from the likes of colnago and pinarello back when the only material was steel. Serotta had image and desirability they have just lost some of the gleam over the years. I've owned several over the years both new and used and still consider a hors cat one of my all time faves. I'll be the first to admit they are no longer on my radar nor have they been for some time. I was starting to lose interest back in the serotta andrew days and a few interactions with the company and this person in particular and I was done and have never looked back. I doubt I will ever buy another, mostly because what I like has changed and I don't think they will be moving in my direction. I personally hope they find their way and the brand survives, they deserve to and nothing personal but you are very wrong at one time they had abundance of cache.

[BobbyJones]

Although the approach may seem a bit harsh, some of the OP's points are valid.

[David Kirk]

One thing I've been thinking with all these "Serotta is dead" threads - for a brand that supposedly no longer relevant it sure does garner a lot of attention.

I think the brand has issues but is far from dead and the number of folks talking about it are a good example of why. The fact that so many care so much that they feel the need to write 1000 word essays on what they feel the brand should do means that the brand has value in their eyes - and that to me means the brand isn't dead.

I feel Bill is on the right track and his actions will in time bear fruit.


Dave

[Mikej]

What if they were not so expensive? It seems like they have a huge overhead vs. other builders, machine / equipment wise and people to run them.

[firerescuefin]

This premise of this thread makes the flat earth society folks look like visionaries

[Chance]

...........
Maybe it's time for Bill and Ben to revisit the marketing side of things and how they represent themselves. If what they are pushing is the self titled "best bikes on the planet" to 50+ baby boomers with deep pockets then I think they will fail again. They need 30 year old people in bike shops riding these things and telling their friends and customers how freekin great they are....and they need to get out in this great big country with a few vans and a crap load of these brilliant bikes, and market the hell out of them in all ways possible from the ground up. Blog posts about maneuvering military ships as metaphors of business accumen won't do it.
...............


A company can reinvent itself much like Cadillac did in transforming from automobiles mostly driven by grandparents into a company with much newer high-performance models aimed at a more youthful market. The problem is that it takes years and years to complete the transformation and a lot of cash to keep the business going in the interim. When you are a division of a larger company like Cadillac is, the cash flow can be handled easier. As a stand-alone company it’s not so easy.

For any small company to pull off a turnaround like you suggest under a different (or same) brand it has to have a unique product giving it competitive advantage. And buyers today in my opinion just don’t care how things are made or how much it costs to make something in a different way. What they mostly care about is the end result. Does it work and does it look OK. Very few buyers will pay a significant premium for a dropout that is uniquely machined if it cost ten times more and all it does is hold the wheel onto the frame. Art sells well to a very few but most buyers today are far more utilitarian. They want results and could care less how the thing was made to work. Just that it does.

Notice the decline in car ads claiming superiority because their frames were hydro-formed or some other marketing nonsense. Average people don’t care how the thing is designed. They want good handling, good ride, good fuel economy and so on. How the company gets their product there isn’t all that important to the vast majority of buyers. That’s where Serotta went wrong. They misjudged a market trend. And a bad economy on top of that didn’t help either.

And for what it's worth, the argument that they made a lot of successful innovations doesn't work for me at all. There is a point where hard-to-make designs mostly just add costs without improving the product's function enough to be justified. May add to short-term exclusivity and demand but not likely to last long-term.

[AngryScientist]

every post with "Serotta" in the title generates pages and pages of multiple paragraph long responses. you think killing that kind of interest makes sense huh?

[johnmdesigner]

May I assume that Bill and Ben have made a generous donation to the Paceline forum?

[Elefantino]

every post with "Serotta" in the title generates pages and pages of multiple paragraph long responses. you think killing that kind of interest makes sense huh?
Here and ATH.

There's passion, that's for sure. You don't kill passion.

[Dave B]

I will say I have owned two serottas, liked them both. One I bought new (Fierte Ti) and the other from Happycampyer (Meivici) and both were well built and great rides. I have also borrowed/demoed a Nove' and it was magical.

I still think a well done Ottrott is one of the sexiest bikes I see out there. Lots of people do Ti/Carbon, but that bike can be done so well. If I hadn't gotten so stuck on Indy Fab I most likely would have sought out that bike.

Some people don't like Serotta. Ok fine, some do. Why is there such a need for Serotta to please everyone? Some of the models in the past irked me, The Aero Mevici that was like $22K and you got to fly out to get fitted and hang for a ride or something. That was a bit much and not about the bike as it was all of the crap that went into it.

Even the most sought after custom bikes get tossed around the used/classified section (Vanilla, Speedvagen, Sachs, Kirk, Moots, IF, etc) so I don't put too much into one company being dead and so on. For me it was the pricing. I couldn't afford the bike they made that I wanted or I could afford many other things I wanted for less then what Serotta was charging.

They priced their bikes out of the game. I hope they make a come back. I would love to own an Ottrott, especially if they did it in a cross bike that I could afford.

[Pete Mckeon]

The brands that you mentioned are mostly history in their offerings or some do not even have a bike business today, "e-Ritchie, Fat City, Merlin, Ritchey, Ibis, Salsa, etc. "

The SEROTTA brand is a viable brand that needs to be marketed. Bike stores that I have seen do not even have the ones you mention.

The dentist I know here in RALEIGH is an accomplished tri rider and used TREK.

Serotta marketing needs to focus on its brand and community via OPEN HOUSE, CYCLING events, and other forms of marketing and building the close knit they had with such places as COLORADO, New YORK, Went POINT team, etc,,,,,,,,,

My personal belief is to focus on the brand and not creating a new name and then building back to where they are now.

Yeah I am not a political correct person but I think you are way off base.:mad::mad:

Have some red with me and lets discuss over the wine,

Time to kill the brand?

Maybe it's just me but the name Serotta has only ever been synonymous with some of the best made bikes in the world, and bad dentist jokes. At this point I don't think that legacy is good enough to rebuild the brand. Serotta and Ben himself never seemed to have much mystique in the way other builders or companies have. I'm thinking e-Ritchie, Fat City, Merlin, Ritchey, Ibis, Salsa, etc.

They didn't build better bikes, but they certainly created something that people related to and wanted to be a part of. An ethic or lifestyle if you will, that said something like... bikes are cool, we love bikes, it's what we make and we hope you like and ride the hell out of them. People knew something about these people as leaders of a clan. For whatever reason (at least for me) and many other people I know, and have known over the years, Serrota was just kind of a boring Co. This includes dirt-bag 20 somethings right along with the well heeled lawyer or dentist, and some of them even owned, loved and rode the hell out of them. But at the end of the day over beers or sitting around with the mechanics after work, nobody ever dreamed about or talked about Serotta the way they talked about Charlie Cunningham or Paul Sadoff or Cook Bros. racing. Ben and Serotta were just that Co. that quietly made great bikes for racers and Olympians and that just wasn't enough. The only image of Ben anybody ever had was a picture of him in a black T-shirt and welding glasses with a blank expression on his face.

Maybe it's time for Bill and Ben to revisit the marketing side of things and how they represent themselves. If what they are pushing is the self titled "best bikes on the planet" to 50+ baby boomers with deep pockets then I think they will fail again. They need 30 year old people in bike shops riding these things and telling their friends and customers how freekin great they are....and they need to get out in this great big country with a few vans and a crap load of these brilliant bikes, and market the hell out of them in all ways possible from the ground up. Blog posts about maneuvering military ships as metaphors of business accumen won't do it.

Kill the name Serotta...call yourself Saratoga Bicycle Works or something and hire the best young marketing team from NYC you can afford.

Good luck and keep building great bikes.

[William]

Remember the Open House events? That was a blast to gather at the factory, tour, picnic, and ride. One weekend a year that garnered a lot of loyalty. Then they quit doing it. I don't know specifically why, but it was something that a lot of folks appreciated and bonded at.

Seems like that was the beginning of the slide. I'm not saying it was the cause, but the solidarity started to break as the company seemed to lose focus. The rising prices and bad economy forced many of those people to look elsewhere.

Serotta is not dead.
They still make a stellar product.
They have to find the connection to the people they lost.

I don't know the answers or the specifics of where they are trying to go, but I hope they pull it off.





William

[witcombusa]

Lota of folks here seemingly very emotionally involved with the brand.
Leftover from the "old" forum? The few things I've heard from cyclistist over the years were, horrible dealer network or none within a 100 miles, unresponsive, way overpriced or aren't building anything that interests them. Sounds dead to me...

Personally I can't even think of a model I would want to pick up secondhand.

[CNY rider]

Wow, nice thread title.
MAybe there's a better way to express a thought?

[Ahneida Ride]

Remember the Open House events? That was a blast to gather at the factory, tour, picnic, and ride. One weekend a year that garnered a lot of loyalty. Then they quit doing it. I don't know specifically why, but it was something that a lot of folks appreciated and bonded at.
William

Those events were priceless and evoked tons of goodwill.


Priceless marketing ....

[AngryScientist]

Remember the Open House events?

before my time i'm afraid, but i would go to one today, if offered.

[flydhest]

Lota of folks here seemingly very emotionally involved with the brand.
Leftover from the "old" forum? The few things I've heard from cyclistist over the years were, horrible dealer network or none within a 100 miles, unresponsive, way overpriced or aren't building anything that interests them. Sounds dead to me...

Personally I can't even think of a model I would want to pick up secondhand.

Amazingly different perspective in terms of the bikes. I have raced my Legend although I now race my Look more. I have a CSi at my mother-in-law's that I frequently find myself wishing was here with me.

Happily take another Legend or CSi. They are simply great bikes.

[54ny77]

my one and only gripe with serotta is price, which i've often repeated on these kinds of threads.

because other than that, they are simply superb. no better way to describe 'em. can't wait to put more miles on my ottrott in 2013 and in the years to come.

shop long & hard for one that's used, in pristine shape, and fits like a glove. you'll be rewarded with a tremendous value. let others sort through the new serotta nonsense.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_4256.jpg

[dd74]

Lota of folks here seemingly very emotionally involved with the brand.
Leftover from the "old" forum? The few things I've heard from cyclistist over the years were, horrible dealer network or none within a 100 miles, unresponsive, way overpriced or aren't building anything that interests them. Sounds dead to me...

Personally I can't even think of a model I would want to pick up secondhand.
I find it completely the opposite. The dealer network extends to any LBS where you can be measured. Responsiveness is outstanding; you just need to call or email, and Serotta gets back to you very quickly. Overpriced? Sure, but so is a Ferrari if you're going to drive it like a Ford Fusion.

Death should not be confused with niche.

[witcombusa]

I find it completely the opposite. The dealer network extends to any LBS where you can be measured. Responsiveness is outstanding; you just need to call or email, and Serotta gets back to you very quickly. Overpriced? Sure, but so is a Ferrari if you're going to drive it like a Ford Fusion.

Death should not be confused with niche.

It would appear from the companys problems that the "niche" market ain't cutting it :confused:

[dd74]

It would appear from the companys problems that the "niche" market ain't cutting it :confused:
And what problems, specifically, do you know they are having?

[witcombusa]

And what problems, specifically, do you know they are having?

I think not making money was one that has been mentioned...

[dd74]

I think not making money was one that has been mentioned...
Mentioned by whom? Serotta, or someone on the forum?

[DHallerman]

every post with "Serotta" in the title generates pages and pages of multiple paragraph long responses. you think killing that kind of interest makes sense huh?

However, we -- the members of this forum, formerly sponsored by Serotta -- are not the typical group of cyclists when it comes to that company.

There's a place in-between niche and mass market, especially when you're NOT comparing Serotta to one-man shops (the creators of many of the other bikes this forum's members seem to gravitate towards).

[Dave B]

my one and only gripe with serotta is price, which i've often repeated on these kinds of threads.

because other than that, they are simply superb. no better way to describe 'em. can't wait to put more miles on my ottrott in 2013 and in the years to come.

shop long & hard for one that's used, in pristine shape, and fits like a glove. you'll be rewarded with a tremendous value. let others sort through the new serotta nonsense.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_4256.jpg

Put Campy on that bike and it would be perfect for me.

[BuddyB]

.....reconnecting with the people they lost.
Happy customers generate interest and income. I had all but written Serotta off until about five months ago, and I was a very unhappy customer regarding quality control on a frame. I had heard whispers of changes taking place within the company, and decided to give them one more shot at correcting a mistake.
The turn around in attitude and openess in communication has been a turn for the good. If they continue on this path I confident that the Serotta name will enjoy a rebirth.

[54ny77]

It had Campy. In fact, it was happy with campy, so to speak....;)

(Search and ye shall be rewarded with the Italian-equipped proper visual, to which I could only respectfully try to honor in my own way.)

Put Campy on that bike and it would be perfect for me.

[esldude]

Started back cycling a few years back after a 20 year hiatus. Never even heard of Serotta. Started lurking on this forum a couple years ago. Finally saw one in person briefly while out of town. No dealers within a 200 miles of here, but ran across one in a MUP. Never would have paid any attention if not for reading on this forum.

I do have one I purchased 2nd hand. Is my favorite bike by far, and best riding I have been on. Not worlds better than mainstream high end offerings, but enough better. I can only imagine a custom one built for me would be better still. Alas unless I run across a used one they are out of my price range. Which is okay, not everyone should or ever will be able to afford Ferrari like bikes.

So I don't pretend to know where this leaves them. I think among current younger riders they lack brand recognition. The product however does not disappoint. Not having spent time on other comparably expensive bikes I don't know how they match up with those, but I am guessing they at least hold their own. As bikes to aspire to, in the general high end bike market they just aren't mentioned as often as Seven, Moots, Pinarello, Colagno or even say Kirk.

I really don't think the product they have is too much of a problem. I don't even think the price is all that high vs their real competitors. Maybe they lack some signature look or design feature. I have no experience with dealers for Serotta, but it is mentioned enough that has been an area that needs plenty of work.

As to them needing to die, I don't really think the OP really believes that. As long as they keep their head above water there is no reason to kill a maker as accomplished as Serotta.

[Ahneida Ride]

Uh

Haven't' these threads run their course ?

[cfox]

Mentioned by whom? Serotta, or someone on the forum?

You are kidding, right?? It's not exactly a secret that their business was suffering mightily. Serotta is in the midst of their latest (of several) equity infusion/re-orgs.

[thwart]

Personally I can't even think of a model I would want to pick up secondhand.
Then you haven't ridden one, fella. Why do so many of us here say such good things about 'em? We're not all fools and sycophants.

Price, price, price. They're starting to address that.

[zap]

Time to kill the brand?



No.

[witcombusa]

Then you haven't ridden one, fella. Why do so many of us here say such good things about 'em? We're not all fools and sycophants.

Price, price, price. They're starting to address that.


You know I've heard that about many brands over the years. And in every case that I've later ridden, have never seen the holy grail. Another good bike, certainly. But just that and nothing more.

I say it's more the self justification after the outlay of large sums of money talking.

[shovelhd]

The title of this thread stinks.

[jpw]

it is a good thing you don't know what you are talking about cause it would be very sad if you did.

+1

[jpw]

i will say i have owned two serottas, liked them both. One i bought new (fierte ti) and the other from happycampyer (meivici) and both were well built and great rides. I have also borrowed/demoed a nove' and it was magical.

I still think a well done ottrott is one of the sexiest bikes i see out there. Lots of people do ti/carbon, but that bike can be done so well. If i hadn't gotten so stuck on indy fab i most likely would have sought out that bike.

Some people don't like serotta. Ok fine, some do. Why is there such a need for serotta to please everyone? Some of the models in the past irked me, the aero mevici that was like $22k and you got to fly out to get fitted and hang for a ride or something. That was a bit much and not about the bike as it was all of the crap that went into it.

Even the most sought after custom bikes get tossed around the used/classified section (vanilla, speedvagen, sachs, kirk, moots, if, etc) so i don't put too much into one company being dead and so on. For me it was the pricing. I couldn't afford the bike they made that i wanted or i could afford many other things i wanted for less then what serotta was charging.

They priced their bikes out of the game. I hope they make a come back. I would love to own an ottrott, especially if they did it in a cross bike that i could afford.

+1

[cmg]

Then you haven't ridden one, fella. Why do so many of us here say such good things about 'em? We're not all fools and sycophants.

Price, price, price. They're starting to address that.



ride a Colorado III, an Atlanta, a CSI or a Couer d' Acier. It is all about the ride.

[Ti_on_Steel]

A Porsche 911 is also a "dentist's car" but it's still one of the best out there. Just because Serotta had an older crowd doesn't mean they can't build you a flat out race machine.

Also, check out the bike they are doing for Signature Cycles right now, I do think they are starting to put out some amazing paint jobs.

[Matthew]

Let the new folks at Serotta get some time to work things out. We have all seen they are trying to get the prices a bit more in line with other builders. Are they cheap? Not even close but you can spend $10,000+ on an Asian built Specialized, Cervelo, Cannondale, Pinarello, insert brand here, if you want yet there is hardly any talk of that around this forum. They are obviously paying attention with the new leadership. Give them an effing chance. Not too many companies around where you can chat with the higher ups online or on the phone. My hope is that they are around for years to come building great bikes just as they have done in the past. Thanks for reading. Going to ride my 11yr old Concours now. A bike that has remained my go to ride while formerly sharing my home with many high end carbon bikes. Matthew.

[rustylion]

No, not at all...all we contribute - and it is just me at the moment with Ben in the background - are our thoughts and comments...which I have written before, we are trying to very careful about so that our participation is not seen as using the forum for "free advertising". We wade in on Serotta threads because we just want the forum members to know we are listening, value your comments (complementary/helpful or not so much but still all good) and want to communicate, i.e, offer clear, direct and quick responses as it seems appropriate. Simple as that.

May I assume that Bill and Ben have made a generous donation to the Paceline forum?

[SoCalSteve]

May I assume that Bill and Ben have made a generous donation to the Paceline forum?

Now this is the funniest thing I have ever read! Ben GAVE us this Forum. I think that's an extremely generous donation, don't you?

[dd74]

You are kidding, right?? It's not exactly a secret that their business was suffering mightily. Serotta is in the midst of their latest (of several) equity infusion/re-orgs.
Do you have a source from Serotta who has openly said that? Until the factory closes, the brand is not dead.

Secondly, "the brand is dead" or "the brand should die," or "Serotta should die," makes no sense. Brands don't die. They cease to be made, but they don't die.

[Ti_on_Steel]

I say if anyone doesn't like it here, go hangout on the Trek or Specialized forums……good luck with that!

[dd74]

I say if anyone doesn't like it here, go hangout on the Trek or Specialized forums……good luck with that!
LOL, reminds me of the Porsche forum I used to go to, with boneheads getting on to talk about the merits of Alfas and 240-Zs. :rolleyes:

[1/2 Wheeler]

but we already have 30 other threads on the topic of their marketing.

There have been many but until Serotta takes the "advise" of the forum they will hated by a handful.

How dare they not do what some experts on the internet tell them.

After all, many of us here once met a frame builder.

[johnmdesigner]

Now this is the funniest thing I have ever read! Ben GAVE us this Forum. I think that's an extremely generous donation, don't you?

If I recall correctly a guy named Kahuna started the original forum.
It then turned into the Serotta forum.
Then some of the framebuilders (some of who started on the original forum) were asked to pay to "advertise" (meaning post pictures of their work) their services. They then left and formed Velocipede Salon.
Then Ben decided not to continue the Serotta Forum. Some members then formed the Paceline forum.
That is my understanding. If I am wrong about this then please accept my apologies.
I can understand how you would think this is still the Serotta forum when you consider the amount of Serotta promotion that goes on in the "General Discussion" section.
And yes, I have no investment here other than my time and am free to leave if I don't like it.
I feel that Ben (and especially Bill) are taking advantage of the situation here.
If the Serotta loyalists here want to promote the brand why not create a special section or a "sticky" for Ben's blog? Their comments can then be directly sent to him.
I don't see any other builders practicing this kind of PR here. If they made these kinds of postings in the GD sections their threads would probably be closed. Why are Ben and Bill being allowed to do whatever they want on a forum that no longer belongs to them?
I thought when this forum was detached from the "Serotta mothership" things would be different. But I guess I was wrong.

[Elefantino]

ride a Colorado III, an Atlanta, a CSI or a Couer d' Acier. It is all about the ride.
Don't forget ti. Ride a Legend or Concours and the same thing applies.

[palincss]

There's a place in-between niche and mass market, especially when you're NOT comparing Serotta to one-man shops (the creators of many of the other bikes this forum's members seem to gravitate towards).

Indeed, and around here that place is now filled by Seven, although at one time it belonged to Serotta.

[SoCalSteve]

If I recall correctly a guy named Kahuna started the original forum.
It then turned into the Serotta forum.
Then some of the framebuilders (some of who started on the original forum) were asked to pay to "advertise" (meaning post pictures of their work) their services. They then left and formed Velocipede Salon.
Then Ben decided not to continue the Serotta Forum. Some members then formed the Paceline forum.
That is my understanding. If I am wrong about this then please accept my apologies.
I can understand how you would think this is still the Serotta forum when you consider the amount of Serotta promotion that goes on in the "General Discussion" section.
And yes, I have no investment here other than my time and am free to leave if I don't like it.
I feel that Ben (and especially Bill) are taking advantage of the situation here.
If the Serotta loyalists here want to promote the brand why not create a special section or a "sticky" for Ben's blog? Their comments can then be directly sent to him.
I don't see any other builders practicing this kind of PR here. If they made these kinds of postings in the GD sections their threads would probably be closed. Why are Ben and Bill being allowed to do whatever they want on a forum that no longer belongs to them?
I thought when this forum was detached from the "Serotta mothership" things would be different. But I guess I was wrong.

You are correct on many points and wrong on one big one...some members did not just "form" the Paceline Forum, it was given to us, lock stock and barrel from Ben. We got the template, membership, all of it.

Mods, please correct me if I am wrong, but the reason the Mods give so much latitude to Ben is because he foot the bill for this great place for many, many years. The Mods and many of the members here are very loyal to Ben and Serotta. That's a great thing! Loyalty is few and far between in the world we live in today. It's refreshing to see the Mods and most of the members still wanting to see Serotta survive and prosper.

Ben is a cool guy. I've had a few great chats with him. Honest and open. And, my all time favorite bike is my Serotta Ottrott... He deserves to get a few kilobytes on this Forum. I'm sure most of the members agree with me.

[witcombusa]

Now this is the funniest thing I have ever read! Ben GAVE us this Forum. I think that's an extremely generous donation, don't you?

I'm not convinced it wasn't a case of the forum was kicked to the curb and some here brought it back from the dead. Regardless, there is a big and questionably unfair "Bens bikes" slant going on here. Since they are not the host now, I say less of them or more of the others.

[SoCalSteve]

I'm not convinced it wasn't a case of the forum was kicked to the curb and some here brought it back from the dead. Regardless, there is a big and questionably unfair "Bens bikes" slant going on here. Since they are not the host now, I say less of them or more of the others.

You are wrong. I was there. Ben GAVE us the Forum. It was alive and well and not kicked to the curb at all.

And, if you had read my previous post about loyalty, then you would understand that it's not at all unfair to give "Bens bikes" some space here. If it weren't for Bens bikes paying for this forum for many, many years, we wouldn't even be having this discussion here and not. Think about that, please.

[Bruce K]

Steve

You are wrong on that. Ben was going to shut the forum down and we asked to take it over as he saw no real value in the forum at the time.

He did give us the forum intact with it's data base and we agreed to give Serotta a banner ad for a year. Deal done.

Many, many members were here as a result of Serotta ownership and a kindred spirit developed through years of participation here, events organized in various locations, and a common love if cycling.

There is no current connection, financial, personnel, or otherwise between the Paceline and Serotta other than the many bikes owned by members.

I guess we (the mods) have had a softer spot for the brand, and maybe we've let it get a bit too far.

Like the Lance threads, we can't prevent folks from talking about Serotta, and given the level of ownership, one should expect a fair amount of interest.

Please believe we are taking a careful look at all builder/product related threads to make sure they all stay within the forum guidelines. Also, please understand we are not always here 24/7 and some stuff can get away from us. Lastly, please remember we are human and doing the best we can to make this place enjoyable for the widest group possible.

It is still, and probably will always be a work in progress

BK

[johnmdesigner]

Steve

You are wrong on that. Ben was going to shut the forum down and we asked to take it over as he saw no real value in the forum at the time.

He did give us the forum intact with it's data base and we agreed to give Serotta a banner ad for a year. Deal done.

Many, many members were here as a result of Serotta ownership and a kindred spirit developed through years of participation here, events organized in various locations, and a common love if cycling.

There is no current connection, financial, personnel, or otherwise between the Paceline and Serotta other than the many bikes owned by members.

I guess we (the mods) have had a softer spot for the brand, and maybe we've let it get a bit too far.

Like the Lance threads, we can't prevent folks from talking about Serotta, and given the level of ownership, one should expect a fair amount of interest.

Please believe we are taking a careful look at all builder/product related threads to make sure they all stay within the forum guidelines. Also, please understand we are not always here 24/7 and some stuff can get away from us. Lastly, please remember we are human and doing the best we can to make this place enjoyable for the widest group possible.

It is still, and probably will always be a work in progress

BK

Thank you Bruce.
There are lots of good people running this thing and I am sure you'll find a way to be fair and open to all.

Cheers!
John

[54ny77]

serotta gone KA-RAY-ZEEEEEE!

ben wielding torch, lugs done by his sister.

now THIS is cool.

http://redkiteprayer.com/tag/ritchey-logic/

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2962-533x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2959-300x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2958-533x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2963-533x400.jpg

[johnmdesigner]

You are wrong. I was there. Ben GAVE us the Forum. It was alive and well and not kicked to the curb at all.

And, if you had read my previous post about loyalty, then you would understand that it's not at all unfair to give "Bens bikes" some space here. If it weren't for Bens bikes paying for this forum for many, many years, we wouldn't even be having this discussion here and not. Think about that, please.

I agree.
Considering the interest there is no reason why "Bens Bikes" should not have some space.
It just shouldn't be in the "General Discussion" area.

[jr59]

I would tend to agree that some points are being raised here on the use of the paceline forum.

Seeing this is no longer the Serotta forum and Ben had no use for it.
It does seem like the Mods are allowing a builder to pimp his products, in the GD section. It's not my call, and I really do like Serotta, but it is a bit much, and I doubt it would be allowed by another builder! I mean isn't this why V-Salon was started?

I have no answers, only pointing out what seems out of whack!

[corky]

Bill & Ben.... the flowerpot men.... flobbalot.

[Pete Mckeon]

:fight:

[Pete Mckeon]

It is open to civil behavior for all brands. Many of the folks have a "history" with SEROTTA. THe Moots, ERicksen, Spectrum, Bedford, Kirk, Eliis, are also fames of quality and ones I lust, (Some bash Serotta here and that gets a response. I can not think of the brands I mentioned ever being bashed so less response in seen:bike::bike: Pete

THE MODERATORS HAVE DONE an excellent job, and now that I am healthier, I enjoy visiting their forum.:)

I would tend to agree that some points are being raised here on the use of the paceline forum.

Seeing this is no longer the Serotta forum and Ben had no use for it.
It does seem like the Mods are allowing a builder to pimp his products, in the GD section. It's not my call, and I really do like Serotta, but it is a bit much, and I doubt it would be allowed by another builder! I mean isn't this why V-Salon was started?

I have no answers, only pointing out what seems out of whack!

[Pete Mckeon]

:confused::

Bill & Ben.... the flowerpot men.... flobbalot.

[johnmdesigner]

I have other frames like PARLEE and Bedford. which are nice rides, and there are also many other brands - but BEN is like a brother to me (yeah we fight and disagree on some things,)

. I have disagreements but "bashing" him and/or the brand brings out my loyalty to him and the brand (as well as folks who work for the firm.)

There are not many small mfts in the US that are in business for 40 years HE is one of the few. AND his product is 2nd to none in quality or ride. THis is based on 30 plus years of riding. Yes I am biased and I will go "toe to toe? but if you have a valid problem he will address it and I will help you. I am 90% back to normal and that brings out my "Irish":cool:
.

Pete,
I don't think there is any "bashing" going on here. If you are going to promote your product on a public forum you should be prepared for the good bad and ugly.
As Bruce so clearly pointed out this is a forum where all points of view are tolerated. It is not financed by any company. That being said anyone who wishes to promote their product should be given the same opportunities as the next person. Playing favorites is not fair to the other members (my opinion).
I know Ben and use his products. I have no axe to grind there.
I just don't think it is fair for Mr. Stevens to have exclusive use of the Forum to promote his products.
Now if you're at 90% it's time to break out the Jameson.
Cheers!
John

[firerescuefin]

The last I checked, there is a builders' spotlight and showcase...and the input from a myriad of custom builders is at its highest. Find one thread from another builder that was shut down early (you won't find it). Serotta has a special place in some people's hearts. Stop your bitching and move down the road.

[William]

I would tend to agree that some points are being raised here on the use of the paceline forum.

Seeing this is no longer the Serotta forum and Ben had no use for it.
It does seem like the Mods are allowing a builder to pimp his products, in the GD section. It's not my call, and I really do like Serotta, but it is a bit much, and I doubt it would be allowed by another builder! I mean isn't this why V-Salon was started?

I have no answers, only pointing out what seems out of whack!

We are aware of the implications and appearances and are working it out. Not everything happens instantaneously and we strive to work together as mods to make the right decisions to benefit the forum in the best possible manner. As has been stated by Bruce, we are not always on the forum at the same time so sometimes working out an issue takes time. Be patient and know that we are on it.






William

[54ny77]

i like turtles.

http://www.maniacworld.com/i-like-turtles.jpg

[johnmdesigner]

i like turtles.

http://www.maniacworld.com/i-like-turtles.jpg

Oh you devil...
That's just the bruises that show.

[bikinchris]

Time to kill the brand?

Maybe it's just me but the name Serotta has only ever been synonymous with some of the best made bikes in the world, and bad dentist jokes. At this point I don't think that legacy is good enough to rebuild the brand. Serotta and Ben himself never seemed to have much mystique in the way other builders or companies have. I'm thinking e-Ritchie, Fat City, Merlin, Ritchey, Ibis, Salsa, etc.

Sorry, but those names never did anything for me like Serotta did. I have built up bikes from many of those companies and they just didn't have the ride and handling. Road or Mountain.
You premise is faulty.

My problem with Serotta is being dropped as a dealer in the middle of a deal with one of my best customers. He has bought several bikes with me since then, but I will not buy another Serotta and nor will he.
Price doesn't matter if the product is worth it folks. People are willing to pay for the best.

[slidey]

I guess the "Builder Spotlights" section solves this issue.

[Aaron O]

I suspect you are fairly young or new to cycling as in past decade or so. There was a time when many fast/fit folks lusted for a serotta. It was the bike that steered my desires from the likes of colnago and pinarello back when the only material was steel. Serotta had image and desirability they have just lost some of the gleam over the years. I've owned several over the years both new and used and still consider a hors cat one of my all time faves. I'll be the first to admit they are no longer on my radar nor have they been for some time. I was starting to lose interest back in the serotta andrew days and a few interactions with the company and this person in particular and I was done and have never looked back. I doubt I will ever buy another, mostly because what I like has changed and I don't think they will be moving in my direction. I personally hope they find their way and the brand survives, they deserve to and nothing personal but you are very wrong at one time they had abundance of cache.

+1 - Serotta to me was an experimental, cutting edge label who made lust worthy machines. Some of them are, to me, iconic. I heart Serotta.

[jr59]

We are aware of the implications and appearances and are working it out. Not everything happens instantaneously and we strive to work together as mods to make the right decisions to benefit the forum in the best possible manner. As has been stated by Bruce, we are not always on the forum at the same time so sometimes working out an issue takes time. Be patient and know that we are on it.






William

I never thought for 1 min that you weren't. Nor did I mean to imply that I thought you were not doing your job with this.

it's a slippery slope for sure.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I just don't think it is fair for Mr. Stevens to have exclusive use of the Forum to promote his products.

You are absolutely correct and this issue is being addressed.

Personally, I don't think this is an issue of Serotta trying to take advantage of this forum. It is, rather, an issue of trying to do the right thing to provide information that members seem to want, but doing so in a way that doesn't push anybody's buttons--which of course, is not possible in THIS place :rolleyes:

It's also a matter of the company trying to find its way marketing-wise when their history is not one of savvy marketing (my personal opinion only).

I also find it ironic to the point of ludicrous that for years when this was the Serotta forum people complained that Serotta never officially engaged customers here. Now that it's no longer the Serotta Forum, the company is trying to engage members in a constructive manner, with honesty and candor in providing information about what's really going on there--and people are complaining.

I've let them know that the Showcase would really be the appropriate place to post some detailed photos of the new offering. After all, that's exactly what the Showcase is for--builders to show off new builds they are proud of. That's exactly what the Fondo seems to be. It's a build to be proud of. At that price with full Ultegra build it really is a good deal. I'd love to see more detailed photos of it in that appropriate section.

We mods are trying to walk a very fine line with Serotta. On the one hand we are trying to let them present what we feel is legitimate news about the company and its progress or lack thereof. Our history is what it is and we have a large number of readers who really do consider this "news" and seem to want to read about it given the amount of attention these threads seem to get.

But we also have to be very careful not to let it go over the line into blatant favoritism towards their brand over others. But where, exactly, is that line? We are still trying to define it exactly.

That task is made even more difficult because of the freewheeling nature of our forum. Active debate, criticism, and sometimes open arguments are allowed and even encouraged. That can be very useful ultimately to a builder like Serotta because it's warts-and-all feedback and often that's the most productive kind. But again there's that line for we mods to define--when does that critique turn into unfair bashing and what exactly do we do about it?

The subject of Serotta, its history, and its future are polarizing subjects that inspire passion from members here. We are doing our best as mods to harness that passion for everyone's education, entertainment and inspiration without letting it get out of control. Please bear with us . . .

BBD

[cfox]

Do you have a source from Serotta who has openly said that? Until the factory closes, the brand is not dead.

Secondly, "the brand is dead" or "the brand should die," or "Serotta should die," makes no sense. Brands don't die. They cease to be made, but they don't die.

This guy named Ben addressed the issue on the forum when the factory was put up for sale last winter. He wrote of over investment in capacity and a severe reduction in orders. He went on to say he was looking for strategic partners to invest in the business. So, through my wizard-like powers of deduction, I concluded that Serotta was in trouble as a going concern. I never said anything about the brand "dying", I was just addressing your apparent surprise that Serotta's business was suffering.

[Kirk007]

Personally I can't even think of a model I would want to pick up secondhand.

Really? And Pegs don't make your top ten list - just curious, what do ya like and why?

[Fixed]

I am hoping the new year brings much success to serotta
And merry Christmas to all the folks who work there
Cheers :)

[pdmtong]

It had Campy. In fact, it was happy with campy, so to speak....;)


I get it and am ROTFLMAO

[pdmtong]

on a more serious note...

give serotta a builders showcase thread and let them pimp their stuff there.

with the bill/rustylion/etc. inrtrodutions, it's now time to move into a singular dedicated thread for the the ben and bill dialogue.

there will be activity, or not.

tyler and firefly seem to be doing just fine in their section.

and fwiw I thought the OP premise was simply a re-marketing / re-branding thought...not a suggestion to close doors and go home.

[dd74]

This guy named Ben addressed the issue on the forum when the factory was put up for sale last winter. He wrote of over investment in capacity and a severe reduction in orders. He went on to say he was looking for strategic partners to invest in the business. So, through my wizard-like powers of deduction, I concluded that Serotta was in trouble as a going concern. I never said anything about the brand "dying", I was just addressing your apparent surprise that Serotta's business was suffering.
I'm not "surprised" Serotta is suffering. Who isn't suffering? My issue remains with the dog pile of vultures who think the name is dying or dead. Even if Ben or whomever said things were tough, I still see a serotta.com website floating about the internet, which tells me there's still life in the brand and its products, even if a guy named Ben says something that might "suggest" the contrary.

[Elefantino]

Every time the S word is used some people lose their minds and other people comment about those who they perceive to have lost their minds and blah blah and pretty soon we're so desperate for lucid conversation that we devolve into meaningless off-topic posts about puppies and kittens or whatever.

Enough already. There are a million legitimate things in this world to get torqued about (fiscal cliffs, Clif Bars, Bar Rafaeli, Rafael Nadal, Ralph Nader, Nader's Raiders, the Oakland Raiders, Raiders of the Lost Ark IV, Foursquare, square taper bottom brackets, Campy vs. Shimano, etc.) and Serotta is 1,000,001.

[BumbleBeeDave]

every time the s word is used some people lose their minds and other people comment about those who they perceive to have lost their minds and blah blah and pretty soon we're so desperate for lucid conversation that we devolve into meaningless off-topic posts about puppies and kittens or whatever.

Enough already. There are a million legitimate things in this world to get torqued about (fiscal cliffs, clif bars, bar rafaeli, rafael nadal, ralph nader, nader's raiders, the oakland raiders, raiders of the lost ark iv, foursquare, square taper bottom brackets, campy vs. Shimano, etc.) and serotta is 1,000,001.

+1

[gemship]

Really? And Pegs don't make your top ten list - just curious, what do ya like and why?

If I may be allowed to answer this question. My one gripe with expensive second hand custom bikes is they were made mostly out of fitter's dimensions for someone else. Hey if the numbers work great but I think one is just better off getting their own custom bike.

[rugbysecondrow]

There have been many but until Serotta takes the "advise" of the forum they will hated by a handful.

How dare they not do what some experts on the internet tell them.

After all, many of us here once met a frame builder.

HAHA. +1


It is easy to be an internet expert when we have no skin in the game. Just ask me, I am an expert in how everybody else should be running their life, it is mine I seem to flub up occasionally though. :)

[christian]

Hey if the numbers work great but I think one is just better off getting their own custom bike.Can't this be applied to any bike, not just custom? I mean, if it doesn't fit, you must it quit.

[gemship]

Can't this be applied to any bike, not just custom? I mean, if it doesn't fit, you must it quit.

absolutely and I feel shameful as I am about to pick on used Serottas. Often times there is a custom Serotta in the classifieds or it can be a IF and you just know every dimension needs to be scrutinized but hey the bike is a good deal right? Well I just feel leery buying something that was purpose built for someone else but that's me assuming they live far away and I don't feel comfortable with just looking at images and sharing specs and then having it shipped to me only to find it could of fit a little better. I would rather see it in person if that makes sense. Not impossible but just a hassle that's why I would think it's just better to get fitted and stay within a budget and find a builder to work with a fitter locally. This what I learned here of course.

This is all assuming your buying someone else's custom made bike under said conditions. I suppose off the shelf bikes are a different story,like I could visit the surly dealer and try the mode/size and find it like it and no sale but see it listed here for a lot cheaper used. I just think buyer beware.

[echelon_john]

It's a bike, not an artificial heart or a prosthetic limb. The contact points are the contact points, and if they're all within a cm or two, you can make it work, whether you're buying a new 'stock' bike or a used 'custom' bike that was made for somebody else. It might not be 'optimized' but, really, how many of us tweaked stem length or seat position on a fully custom bike once we actually got it out on the road?

We're not princesses, and a few mm either way isn't much of a pea.

[AngryScientist]

It's a bike, not an artificial heart or a prosthetic limb. The contact points are the contact points, and if they're all within a cm or two, you can make it work, whether you're buying a new 'stock' bike or a used 'custom' bike that was made for somebody else. It might not be 'optimized' but, really, how many of us tweaked stem length or seat position on a fully custom bike once we actually got it out on the road?

We're not princesses, and a few mm either way isn't much of a pea.

big +1 to this one. John lives in the real world with me:)

[gemship]

It's a bike, not an artificial heart or a prosthetic limb. The contact points are the contact points, and if they're all within a cm or two, you can make it work, whether you're buying a new 'stock' bike or a used 'custom' bike that was made for somebody else. It might not be 'optimized' but, really, how many of us tweaked stem length or seat position on a fully custom bike once we actually got it out on the road?

We're not princesses, and a few mm either way isn't much of a pea.

I agree except that anyone who spends over 1k on a bike pretty much is a prince or princess like it or not.I have friends that own more bikes than I do and love bikes. They respect me and like the new stuff out there but don't participate in bike forum discussions and buy pretty much all there bikes at flea markets and yard sales would that be a better example of living in the real world?

[echelon_john]

I think we're saying the same thing. Maybe I misunderstood your previous post. If so, sorry.

My point was just that the argument that "buying a used custom bike that was made for SOMEBODY ELSE is crazy" is unfounded. (my quotes to emphasize the oft-heard sentiment; not quoting what you said)




I agree except that anyone who spends over 1k on a bike pretty much is a prince or princess like it or not.I have friends that own more bikes than I do and love bikes. They respect me and like the new stuff out there but don't participate in bike forum discussions and buy pretty much all there bikes at flea markets and yard sales would that be a better example of living in the real world?

[gemship]

I think we're saying the same thing. Maybe I misunderstood your previous post. If so, sorry.

My point was just that the argument that "buying a used custom bike that was made for SOMEBODY ELSE is crazy" is unfounded. (my quotes to emphasize the oft-heard sentiment; not quoting what you said)

point well taken, hey I think Pegoretti's are great but for the money even in the used market a person can get a proper fitting and take that detailed info to a builder, the right builder who is affordable and does it right and have a really nice riding bike. If you're gonna spend roughly 2k why not? This is just a certain given scenario.

[echelon_john]

Agreed. Once you know 4 numbers, you can be reasonably assured the FIT will be in the ballpark. Obviously, steering geometry, front center/rear center and lots of other factors fall outside this. But as long as you know your measurements, and the driving geometry behind them:
- Saddle height (seat tube length)
- Saddle setback (seat tube angle)
- Saddle tip to bar reach (seat tube angle, effective top tube length)
- Bar drop (stack height, driven by fork length, HT length, BB drop)

...and can ensure that these fall within range of adjustability, then you can probably make a used custom fit you.

[christian]

point well taken, hey I think Pegoretti's are great but for the money even in the used market a person can get a proper fitting and take that detailed info to a builder, the right builder who is affordable and does it right and have a really nice riding bike. If you're gonna spend roughly 2k why not? This is just a certain given scenario.Again, this just isn't working for me? I fit on a stock 56cm Pegoretti. So I'd buy a used 56cm Pegoretti. I could go to a cheap custom builder, but (roughly), I'm going to end up with a bike that fits (but maybe not rides) like a Pegoretti 56.

It's not like custom bikes are like custom codpieces. Pretty much, if it fits, and the previous owner weighed within 25 lbs of what you weigh, it'll be just fine.

In other words, for me, any old bike with a 72.5-73 d STA, a 55.8 - 56.8cm TT, and a 15.5-16.5cm HT (assuming threadless steerer and 368mm fork) would be close enough to be of interest. If it falls outside of those parameters, I'm not interested, whether it be custom or stock.

[echelon_john]

exactly

Again, this just isn't working for me? I fit on a stock 56cm Pegoretti. So I'd buy a used 56cm Pegoretti. I could go to a cheap custom builder, but (roughly), I'm going to end up with a bike that fits (but maybe not rides) like a Pegoretti 56.

It's not like custom bikes are like custom codpieces. Pretty much, if it fits, and the previous owner weighed within 25 lbs of what you weigh, it'll be just fine.

In other words, for me, any old bike with a 72.5-73 d STA, a 55.8 - 56.8cm TT, and a 15.5-16.5cm HT (assuming threadless steerer and 368mm fork) would be close enough to be of interest. If it falls outside of those parameters, I'm not interested, whether it be custom or stock.

[gemship]

Again, this just isn't working for me? I fit on a stock 56cm Pegoretti. So I'd buy a used 56cm Pegoretti. I could go to a cheap custom builder, but (roughly), I'm going to end up with a bike that fits (but maybe not rides) like a Pegoretti 56.

It's not like custom bikes are like custom codpieces. Pretty much, if it fits, and the previous owner weighed within 25 lbs of what you weigh, it'll be just fine.

In other words, for me, any old bike with a 72.5-73 d STA, a 55.8 - 56.8cm TT, and a 15.5-16.5cm HT (assuming threadless steerer and 368mm fork) would be close enough to be of interest. If it falls outside of those parameters, I'm not interested, whether it be custom or stock.

yeah it's totally subjective and your not wrong. I never owned a custom bike made for me, have you? However I am just cheerleading one camp of forum speak today. Personally I think used Pegoretti's are generally overpriced so why not take the leap, just an opinion.

[Hawker]

serotta gone KA-RAY-ZEEEEEE!

ben wielding torch, lugs done by his sister.

now THIS is cool.

http://redkiteprayer.com/tag/ritchey-logic/

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2962-533x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2959-300x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2958-533x400.jpg

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IMG_2963-533x400.jpg

Thanks for posting. Went to RKP to get the details, very retro, very cool. Also scroll down a bit for some very interesting Tom Ritchey eye candy.

[malcolm]

Again, this just isn't working for me? I fit on a stock 56cm Pegoretti. So I'd buy a used 56cm Pegoretti. I could go to a cheap custom builder, but (roughly), I'm going to end up with a bike that fits (but maybe not rides) like a Pegoretti 56.

It's not like custom bikes are like custom codpieces. Pretty much, if it fits, and the previous owner weighed within 25 lbs of what you weigh, it'll be just fine.

In other words, for me, any old bike with a 72.5-73 d STA, a 55.8 - 56.8cm TT, and a 15.5-16.5cm HT (assuming threadless steerer and 368mm fork) would be close enough to be of interest. If it falls outside of those parameters, I'm not interested, whether it be custom or stock.


Very true. I think lots of folks put way too much emphasis on the tiny dimensions. I see people all the time say if the TT was just .5cm longer. If the set back works and the head tube is long enough and the angles are OK it'll work. Custom down to the 1/2 cm doesn't mean much

[bobswire]

it's a bike, not an artificial heart or a prosthetic limb. The contact points are the contact points, and if they're all within a cm or two, you can make it work, whether you're buying a new 'stock' bike or a used 'custom' bike that was made for somebody else. It might not be 'optimized' but, really, how many of us tweaked stem length or seat position on a fully custom bike once we actually got it out on the road?

We're not princesses, and a few mm either way isn't much of a pea.

This!

[SPOKE]

Sure contact points matter....but the other things such as front-center, BB drop, rake, trail, tubing selection, CS length define how the bike feels when you ride it.

[Kirk007]

Very true. I think lots of folks put way too much emphasis on the tiny dimensions. I see people all the time say if the TT was just .5cm longer. If the set back works and the head tube is long enough and the angles are OK it'll work. Custom down to the 1/2 cm doesn't mean much

Agreed. Which is why I need to stay away from this place until someone buys that Kelly Bedford frame in the classifieds.

[cmg]

here's a custom for someone else. Look at the headtube, .5cm spacer, bars are 88cm from the floor, most of my other bikes require 3-4cm of spacers to get the bars to that height, except my custom Ti. once i realized this was going to be the case how could i say no. buy it, build it, ride it, if it fits keep it, if it doesn't, sell it. write down the geometry and tweak it for your custom. there's too many reason not buy someone else custom if the price is right.


On the New Serotta Ti frames, i would buy one. The geometry would work for me but i spent MORE money on the custom last year. So maybe in a year or 2.

[charliedid]

So, after reading all the comments it appears that Serotta is just fine and I am a clueless kid who just got his first bike...

That's cool.

[HenryA]

So, after reading all the comments it appears that Serotta is just fine and I am a clueless kid who just got his first bike...

That's cool.

Its cool.

But what did you expect coming into a den of Serotta fans?
You're lucky to get out alive.

:):):):):):)

[Bruce K]

Sounds like we're done then

BK