is fit an art or a science?

[Climb01742]

my question is born out of frustration.

i think a simple fundamental goal most of us share is to ride pain free. close behind is to find a position that feels comfortable and powerful. a position that allows us to feel part of our bike, in harmony with it, rather than this vague sense of fighting the bike a bit, or a nagging sense of slight awkwardness on the bike, or a restless shifting around on our bikes.

maybe i'm searching for something that doesn't exist. it feels like my position on a bike is improving, that i'm getting more comfortable, but something still doesn't feel quite right. maybe i'm 80-90% there.

i've been fit by three serotta certified fitters. who had three opinions that differed not by mm's, but by cm's. i'm not posting this out of anger or as a criticism, not at all. i'm just frustrated and curious.

how much of fitting someone is science -- meaning certain principles that aren't too terribly open to interpretation -- and how much is an art -- meaning each fitter free to "customize" fit principles? how much is based on objective measurements -- body lengths -- and how much is based on less quantifiable factors -- like what feels "right" to a rider or below the surface body abnormalities like flexibility issues or muscle imbalances?

if a fitting is based on more objective criteria, then the idea of a "certified" fitter makes more sense. but if enough of what makes a fitter good is personal and interpretive and subjective, then does the notion of "certified" make sense? if three different "certified" fitters can arrive at three different fits, what does "certification" actually mean?

again, i'm not criticizing. i'm frustrated and sore. maybe my expectations for what any fitter can do are unrealistic. maybe what makes me sore and fidgety on a bike now aren't fit issues but flexibility issues or muscle imbalance issues. how would i find out and who would i go -- who could i trust -- to find out?

in theory, certification is a great idea. but in the real world, is it workable? what is a rider buying when they buy a certified fit? :confused:

[Johny]

Climb,

Have you read Peter White's How to Fit a Bicycle (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm)?
I like the way he puts it: "YOU know why you ride a bike. Only YOU know what compromises you are willing to make in order to achieve your purposes on a bicycle."

[keno]

as I have become more comfortable making experimental adjustments to my bike's setup by changing stems, fiddling with spacers, move the saddle up and down, foreward and back, I have come to my own conclusions about how much I can expect out of an excellent fit. I now take a bike fit as an first approximation to my real and changing needs.

There is just too much that the best of bike fits cannot properly address. As an example, no bike fitter is likely to see the changes in your position after three hours in the saddle as a result of what your muscles and conditioning can handle. That is when the real comfort of your bike is most important, but not something that will be apparent from 30 minutes on a fit cycle, or, for that matter, a fitter interpreting your description of what you think happens after three hours in the saddle.

Another example is for folks like yourself, as someone who is working hard at developing his riding, changes in your body and understanding how to use your body on the bike can happen in quantum-level like steps. A friend of mine put it well when he said "You learn a little bit at a time, and realize it all at once." The result can often be that overnight your bike ceases to fit you optimally.

Yet another, and I think I'll stop here, is the individual sensitivity of a rider. Some of us may be sensitive to very small increments in seat height, for example, whereas others may be similarly so to seat position or tilt. (It happens that flydhest and I ride each others bikes occasionally without adjustment pretty comfortably. After comparing notes we concluded that he is much more sensitive to minor changes in seat height than I am, whereas forward and back seat position it is just the opposite for us.) Then there are others who may not be particularly sensitive to small, or even large, changes in fit for reasons of adaptability, lack of awareness, and other factors. It would be easy to see how different riders might come to very different conclusions about bike fit, with the same fitter getting high marks from some and low marks from others.

Here's my recent experience. I was fit by a first-rate fitter earlier this year for an Ottrott. I took delivery the week before Open House, in June. By the end of August I had changed from an 11cm stem to a 12cm, and the saddle was up about 5mm by my own hand. That much happened in my riding in those few months, related both to my work on the bike and pilates clicking in even more.

My overall conclusion is that a bike fit must be taken as a static event relating to a particular time. I must refit my bike as it becomes apparent yesterday's fit isn't working anymore.

keno

[Paul Levine]

The answer to your question was best stated by the famous scholar Bob Fugett :
"People who say art is not a science, do not understand art."
"People who say science is not an art, do not understand science."
- Bob Fugett

As for the meaning of Certification: Bike fit certification is no different than any other certified program. One attends a comprehensive training program and is issued a certificate. What one does with this new knowledge upon departing is where the differences will be apparent in their success. All you need to do is track any medical school graduating class and you will find out that some of the graduates will turn out to be
heads of departments and some will be in your local news headlines for malpractice. Same degree - different results.

Paul Levine

[jerk]

it depends. there is a proven position that works for proffessional cyclists. it has far more to do with ensuring proper weight balance over the bicycle than any notion of comfort, although it is a position that is comfortable enough and the least of ones worries when your legs, lungs and muscles are burning. beyond this, one must also take into account riding in a peloton. it's going to be alot safer and more stable with the seat pushed a little back, the bars low and narrow and the rider and bicycle able to react quickly yet in a stable and predictable manner.

certain fit systems place an undue emphasis on factors mostly irrelevent to the above such as flexibility. no matter what ones level of flexibility is, the glutes only work within a fairly narrow range of hip rotation. this is why the traditional italian method of bike fitting, whereby body measurements are taken and applied to proven theories of frame and bike design works for the vast majority of cyclists.

there is no magic number. the body will always have to adapt and once it does don't change things! even changing pedals or shoes halfway through a season can really screw things up. the jerk has even had a replacement bicycle which was supposidly the exact same size, ruin a season because he could never wuite make it match the old crashed bike.

so the jerk has no answers for you climb-o, except to say keep fiddling with it on your own. you know better than anyone else what works and the jerk thinks guys like thom have set you up at a decent starting point.

jerk

[timto]

This echos some of what others have already said...but I thought I'd share my own observations on the subeject.

Fit methodologies
I found my one paid fitting experience to confirm the boundaries that years of riding had honed. I can see how for a new rider they can provide working parameters. As we all have such varying strengths, proportions, characteristics - the base methodologies seem appropriate for verifying/getting one 'in range'. Having said that, and following with the Peter White quote, is that we know our own body best and that we ought to trust it more often. I think expectations can get out of line when dealing with what is essentially human judgment/opinion and we're laying down our money. We also respect expert advice but it is just that - advice and as with all things, all experts are not equal - there are ones that listen/interpret better without a doubt. I bet there is a person out there that could get you to your 99%...


The human factors
These are the combination of physical and emotional (yes) parts to fit that I've found can help or hinder finding good fit. I've had my best success with a cycle of listening to my body, trial, practice and adaptation. I really feel that a rider's changes in flexibility, strength and fitness can/should dictate slight tweaking accordingly. This can change even by discipline - one doesn't generally set up a track bike like their roadie for instance. So I'm from a camp that feels that perfect fit doesn't necessarily mean one set of measurements regardless.

As I feel I'm on a frame that fits close - I take advantage on the flexibility of parts (stem rises, lengths, post setbacks etc) to do my tweaking - but RELY on my own body, and it's ability to listen/adapt.


I've had my worst results due to influences from the emotional side - I am influcenced by a fast looking bike so to be honest I did try to work in a fast look. What can I say? The 'function follows form' thing was a not so good idea. I think the desire to have a fast looking bike does sabotage many a custom frame or fitting excersizes. But as I become less influenced by the boy racer look I've opened up to trying things like 0 rise stems, DBRK's longer and higher methodology and lowering my saddle too. THese things work AGAINST what my ex-racer bike fitter wanted me to do but heck, I feel more comfortable on 6 hour rides. I do still want to satisfy a certain aesthetic but that has now evolved to a more 'balanced' look versus a really racy look - even though they can be the same too.

Too many words typed but in essence - what are your riding goals? play around - ALOT. Listen to your body. Try things all in moderation of course and it can't hurt.

[djg]

my question is born out of frustration.

i've been fit by three serotta certified fitters. who had three opinions that differed not by mm's, but by cm's. i'm not posting this out of anger or as a criticism, not at all. i'm just frustrated and curious.

how much of fitting someone is science -- meaning certain principles that aren't too terribly open to interpretation -- and how much is an art -- meaning each fitter free to "customize" fit principles? how much is based on objective measurements -- body lengths -- and how much is based on less quantifiable factors -- like what feels "right" to a rider or below the surface body abnormalities like flexibility issues or muscle imbalances?

if a fitting is based on more objective criteria, then the idea of a "certified" fitter makes more sense. but if enough of what makes a fitter good is personal and interpretive and subjective, then does the notion of "certified" make sense? if three different "certified" fitters can arrive at three different fits, what does "certification" actually mean?

again, i'm not criticizing. i'm frustrated and sore. maybe my expectations for what any fitter can do are unrealistic. maybe what makes me sore and fidgety on a bike now aren't fit issues but flexibility issues or muscle imbalance issues. how would i find out and who would i go -- who could i trust -- to find out?

in theory, certification is a great idea. but in the real world, is it workable? what is a rider buying when they buy a certified fit? :confused:

I'm not an expert fitter or an exercise physiologist, but based on some interest I had, in a prior life, in other areas of physiology (perceptual physiology really, but one does a bit of general reading), I'd be surprised to learn that anyone could package a magic fitting system, and train folks to use it, such that any cyclist could get an ideal position and bike design out of the thing. Very, very surprised. Indeed, the fact that they certify human fitters to look at and interpret your position on the size-cycle suggests that the device is part of a fitting system that is not entirely objective.

The "art" part of it may not be all bad. If fitting typically involves balancing many rough trade-offs, it may well be that some folks have a knack for it--an intuitive sense of how things should look based on a great deal of thoughtful looking, where the mojo is embedded in a really sophisticated and subconscious averaging routine in the artist's head.

Certified fitters may not be equivalent or equal, but the system and training may be pretty good in any case. Suppose they avoid the vast majority of possible injury-causing fit solutions for 90% of the people and actually help 75% of the people feel more comfortable or more powerful on the bike? If so, they have a good system. At the same time, if the system works beautifully for 99% of the people, but not for you, then maybe you should look elsewhere.

Elsewhere possibilities: maybe a good coach or trainer or independent fit guru, seeing you on an actual bike, will come up with something helpful and different. Maybe that will include specific exercises to help you accomodate the bike and not just fit adjustments to help the bike accomodate you. I don't know what's realistic for you. We are not evolved to ride bikes. We are evolved to walk upright. We walk just fine, most of us, but not always, and some of us cannot do it at all.

Personally, I've had people help me a couple of times and I am not skeptical with regard to the possibility of good and useful fit assistance. I've never been on a size cycle, not because I have anything against them, but just because ...

[circusbike]

Let me first say, getting fit is not an event but a continuing proccess.
It is part science but it is also listening to you the athlete. The athlete has to be honest and give each fitter the same exact information; the type of riding you are doing, the amount, the (true) average distance and speed of your rides, and what your season goals are. Some athletes are not honest with the fitter, for some reason, about their goals. Take for insatnce speed and distance, I have read posts on here and sometimes find it hard (very hard) to believe the avg speeds some of you talk about. I work with professional athletes and know true avg speeds. What I am saying is, to be completely honest with your fitter, like you would be with a doctor, so you can get the best possible fit of that time. I know that if I got fit 3 different times in one year I would get three fits because I know my fit will evolve slightly through the year.
I repeat - Fit is not an event, but a continuing proccess.

[Ray]

I know far less than those who have responded already, but my experience with my Spectrum is that the fit session will get you a frame that rides and handles right but it's up to YOU to dial in your position so you're comfortable for the length and effort of rides you like to do. After many months adapting to the position Tom K suggested for me, I realized it was great up to about 40-60 miles, depending on the day, but I couldn't handle long rides without a LOT of discomfort which ultimately slowed me down a lot. So I slid the saddle back almost a cm (in increments, not all at once), moved the bars back and up a bit, and PRESTO, I was feeling good on centuries and beyond. MAYBE not quite as efficient for a 30 mile hammer ride, but that's not the kind of ride I generally do anyway. I talked to Tom about it and he said that this was how the process was supposed to work. He designs the frame to ride and handle right within a range of positions. The position I started out trying was at the forward end of that range, I'm now closer to the middle, and it could handle a slightly more rearward position without compromising the handling. And the handling has stayed unbelieveably good throughout the changes I've made. BTW, he knew very well that I was not (and did not aspire to be) a racer when he fit me, so the frame geometry is closer to the Merlin Solis that was discussed in another thread than to a pure racing bike. This allwed for my more aggessive starting position to more of a rando type of position than the racing position the Jerk talks about.

So, there are certain things the fitter/designer does right. And there are certain things left to you to do right. Don't be afraid to experiment.

-Ray

[Len J]

in my experience.

Keno has stated the "fit is not a static thing" argument better than I could. I too notice that my fit changes somewhat with changes in my own fitness.

OTOH, The Jerk's comments about finding a position and adapting and then leaving it alone also fits with my experience. I find that if I change to many things too frequently, I never adapt & therefor I never really get comfortable.

I try to change one thing at a time and then ride several weeks with that change paying attention to whatever issue I wanted to correct. (Sorta like the eye docter, better or worse, better or worse.) I seems to allow me to make better secisions and thene increment from there.

The other issue, for me is about goals and comprimise. Unfortunatly, In my experience, you can't have it all. The most powerful position is not the most comfortable......the most comfortable is not the most powerful. What are you trying to accomplish, what are you willing to give up.

Me, I've decidied that my goal is long distance riding with strong efforts. My solution is a seatposition that puts me 2.5 cm behind KOP for balance, slightly stretched out to promote the hip rollforward and only 2 to 4 cm Saddle to bar drop for neck and shoulder comfort. I can ride this position all day with little or no discomfort. I also can tell when I set up a new bike if the position is the same or different. But it's taken me a lot of time to "find" this.

Is it the most powerful position......probably not, but it meets my goals & I'm happy with it. Now that I know it, it is easy to size a bike that is comfortable and also pleasing to my eye.

Len

ps...from your post I would guess that you are tweaking too much. JMO

[Michael Katz]

I understand your frustration. I think part of the problem is that when buying a high end custom bike there can be a tendency to expect perfection, that every nuance of our expectations will be met. And why not? We are spending small fortunes on a bunch of tubes put together by guys acclaimed as gurus in their fields of expertise. I think, though, that we tend to lose sight of the fact that this is a human endevor colored by the context and substance of the "expert's" world of experience, that of the "customer", and the ability of the 2 to find a common level of communicating with each other. Add to the mix that in the "real world" the limits of design and materials may dictate the need for compromise from "perfection" in order to achieve a certain balance of fit, comfort and performance and, at least for me, I'm always left with a little voice wondering if something should and could have been done differently to better achieve the "perfection" I believed I was getting at the time I plunked down my deposit.

I think my experience in purchasing custom bikes is reflective of this. With each bike, I expressed the same desired mix of characteristics with the benefit of letting the shop see me on my then existing bike and explaining to them what I liked and didn't like.

My first was a Seven Axiom Ti. Mostly by the numbers. Measure me, measure my stock Indy Fab, fill out the rating scales for handling, comfort, stiffness etc. Ended up with a bike that fit my upper body and was very comfortable over long distances. Plenty of stiffness through the drivetrain. But the handling was way off the mark of what I wanted. (Ended up selling the frame.)

Next bike was a Spectrum Superlight. Totally different experience. No measurements of me. Some of the Seven. But a lot of time with Tom Kellogg watching me ride the Seven in a trainer and asking me a lot of questions about what I liked, didn't like about the Seven, how and where I ride, making adjustments to my positioning and watching my reaction. Ended up with a bike that fits like a glove when I get on it. Has the most balanced handling of any bike I have ever ridden - quick and responsive when jockying for position in a pack but incredibly stable and confidence inspiring when bombing down hills with S curves at high rates of speed, in the drops or on the hoods. But on rides in excess of 60 miles, if I've been pushing hard, when fatigue sets in, the bike starts to feel too big. My hips start to rock excessively and upper body position begins to feel too aggressive and uncomfortable. After talking to Tom, tried shortening the stem by 1/2 cm and adjusting the seat. Helped somewhat. But if I did more, would I upset the balanced handling? Is this one of those unavoidable "compromises"?

Then decided to get an Ottrott. (Was in a car accident with a coked out driver of the other car and other guy's insurance company graciously offered to fund my toy budget for many years to come.) Went through the size cycle process with attendent mobility and flexibity measurements, interview process etc. Experienced fitter with a racing backround. I held out the Spectrum as the Gold Standard for handling. Gave Serotta the specs on my Spectrum. Spoke to Kelly about my desires and concerns. Only change I wanted was to address the issues I described above. Everything else about the Spectrum was my model of perfection. Ended up with a bike that is my Gold Standard for comfort and fit on long rides. No hip rocking or upper body issues when fatigued. Very quick and responsive handling with good stability. But riding the drops when descending at speed feels like I am too far over the front end. The bike feels too small when descending in the drops . So I descend on the hoods. Also, front end is a bit too fast so I must pay close attention to the road when reaching for a water bottle.

Two great bikes, by 2 of the greats in the industry. Both are beautiful wonderfully competent rides. But each is distinctly different in some way. In looking at the relative strengths of each bike, I really wonder if "perfection" is achievable or whether at some point there must be a compromise in one area to achieve a benefit in the other. Given my body, can the "issues" with the Spectrum be designed out of a bike without resulting in the "issues" of the Ottrott? Do I need put the bikes through a transporter to blend their DNA? (Or do I need to stop thinking so much and just ride the hell out of the suckers?) Of course, my "issues" and yours are not going to be the same. When you talk about riding pain free and in comfort, your definition, needs and desires are going to be different than mine. But I think I understand your frustration. Maybe it's a process of evolution for both a customer and a designer where each time you come a bit closer to achieving that perfect blend and the past "failures" are critical to enabling both parties to more precisely define what is needed to "hit the mark".

[Paul Levine]

This is the most intelligent discussion that I have read on any forum regarding fit. You guys have it nailed!
There is not much more to add to the subject. Go ride your bike.

Paul Levine

[Kevan]

it is first and foremost a science. There are two aspects of the bicycle and rider that have to be determined before a torch is even fired up. First, is establishing the intended use of the bike as the fit of the rider will have to compliment and support that activity. The bike's build and the rider's positioning on it will address whether the bike will be better suited to navigate a mountain trail, address the speeds of a velodrome, or support a rider on a hundred mile journey. Then it's establishing the rider's contact points, ensuring those points are dialed in and deemed appropriate to the rider as comfortable and suitable to the intended exercise, as well as, offer appropriate levels of stability for safety sake. Not until these aspects are determined is the science portion of the fit completed.

If there is anything this forum has taught us over these years, particularly with dbrk's input, is that once purpose and contact points have been established then the design and build of the bike can be addressed in attempts that its makes the lines of the bicycle both functional and pleasing to the eye and this is when the artistic aspects become probably most important and apparent. In my own case, I've learned that while my Calfee suits me in fit and purpose some of the artistic design was compromised, at least to my eye, because I simply didn't know at the time the bike was built to challenge the bike's design. As a result, I'm left with a stem that is upturned more than I like, but fully and appropriately addresses my fit needs. If I had stood back and looked at what we were trying to accomplish, and challenged my fitter to come to a successful conclusion that would have permitted the bike to operate and fit me with a more level stem then perhaps the artistic aspect in build would have prevailed and been more successful for me. That said, my fitter knew that I was on a budget and worked within it and that I have to come to terms that to fully address every whim in design most likely means I would have needed to open my wallet even wider. Then again there's nothing wrong with a little compromise.

[toaster]

In my view, it is an art.

Like someone already mentioned it's not an event but rather a process. The science is in the machine, human physiology is not made in metal and bound by welds and bolts. Fitting an asymmetrical body to a perfectly symmetrical machine is an art.

[eddief]

Sounds as if you know you are dialed in at 90 percent. Would you be able to describe to a fitter what's not working for you? I would be reluctant to pay more money for another fit or another frame until I was darn sure I could describe my problem. On the other hand, maybe your trial and error process will have you stumble on to a fitter who can i.d. your problem for you. Good luck.

[victoryfactory]

Climb;

I'd say 50% science, 50% art and the other half, luck

One of the problems is that at 200 bucks, you can imagine the rider would
want a definitive result, but that doesn't always happen.

That's where the art comes in.

From my experience with Serotta trained fitters, pay extra attention to the
interview process, be careful to be realistic, make sure the fitter really checks
out your current ride and analyizes your wishes and complaints based on that.

The fitting is much more sucessfull as you get a better handle on your own needs.
It's good to have a starting point (your current bike) for reference.
If you come into it clueless, you will only get the fitter's best guess.
If you have some good experience and ideas, combined with a fitter who
is paying attention, you win.

Even the best fitter can't be perfect, and your body, style and fitness do
change too. That's what spacers, seat rails and bar/stem swaps are for.
The fitter should take responsibility for providing a stable, good handling
machine while hitting your comfort goals. As mr Jerk stated above, pros
are more concerned with the former, and we old farts the latter. Finding
the perfect balance is the real "art" of fitting, and don't be surprised if it takes
a couple of cracks to get there.

Finally, lets not get carried away, custom fit frames for the well heeled
masses is a relatively new concept. In the old days we left it up to the
frame maker to develop a geometry that he prefered, and we went with
that. There may be now a tendency to take custom fitting too far.
We have all seen some whacked out examples on the custom forum,
all of which their owners assure us solved their problems perfectly.
Maybe so, but don't forget to honor the long established bike maker's
"stock" geometry. I'd say start with that, and make subtle changes to suit
your needs, rather than creating a bike-enstein monster which goes too far
and creates other problems unforseen.

VF, the great pontificator er... communicator!

[bluesea]

maybe i'm searching for something that doesn't exist. it feels like my position on a bike is improving, that i'm getting more comfortable, but something still doesn't feel quite right. maybe i'm 80-90% there.

i've been fit by three serotta certified fitters. who had three opinions that differed not by mm's, but by cm's. i'm not posting this out of anger or as a criticism, not at all. i'm just frustrated and curious.



I take it you are happy with the spec of your frame, and you are referring to getting fitted for riding position? I do not know your age, experience, fitness and flexibility levels, nor your riding style, so there's not much to go on. In terms of being fitted for riding position, The most solid input you can get from the fitter, is saddle position and the range of play that you have while maintaining safe leg angles. After that it is a matter of moving the handlebars this way or that.

Now if you are fitting for a racing position, most good fitters can put you in the ballpark, often right over the plate in fact, because the fundamentals of the position are well known. Once set up they should be willing to help you weigh out your front/rear weight distibution. They should recommend a range of adjustability. After that, it is up to the rider to tweak to his own needs. Its like going to the doctor. "Doc, I'm sick, I have a cold." Doctor checks you out in detail and says "Yup you're sick, you have a cold, see you next time". A fitter can only take you so far. The rider must know his own body and how to fit it to the bike.

The riding position of a road bike, even with the bars level with the saddle, is not an inherently comfortable position. Core strength, and neck and shoulder strength are absolutely critical to comfort. Even moreso as the riding position becomes more aggressive. Once a rider attains adequate strength in these critical areas, they will be able to adapt to a good range of positions without pain or discomfort. By the same token if a rider is constantly tweaking a little here and a little there, always searching for more comfort, there is a good chance that there is inadequate core/neck/shoulder strength.

Art & Science:
There is much science to the bio-mechanics of fitting the human frame to a bicycle. It is the fitter's art to apply these principles to an individual rider. The real artist, however, is the rider himself who will take that fit to the level of perfection in accords with the discourses with, and the dictates of his own body.

-an online jamoke

[Smiley]

Fit is science and its art and it changes as your level of conditioning changes. The goal of a good fitting bike is to design it to have room to adapt to the future possiblities of where we would anticipate your conditioning going forward as you progress like a Keno or backwards if you lay off the bike and your base deterorates and you need to take a step back. I feel that KOP should not and will not change for most riders given a few mm here and there. So what your left with is the ability to change the cock pit dimensions for the rider. I have been messing with my cock pit for awhile now as I have gone UP and come in over time to make it more comfortable for me in the saddle over long distance rides. My saddle height and saddle position has not moved much UNLESS I have switched saddle types and placed my sit bones on a different spot.

[coylifut]

is that I believe it's un reasonable to be 100% comfortable on your bike all the time.

[loctite]

is that I believe it's un reasonable to be 100% comfortable on your bike all the time.

WOW... completely untrue! Why should you not be comfortable on your bike atr all times? If that is your case something is wrong with your position. If a rider has an efficient position, that his body is capable of. Than he/she SHOULD be cofortable, at all times. :argue:

[shoe]

i too have to echo what others have said. i had just purchased a road bike not so long ago and was completely naive about fit. so i ended up getting a fit and being naive i thought there would be an easy solution. i never realized how complex it could be with all the little intricacies and subtle changes...this forum for one has been a great tool for information and opinion. so i now have a much better position after being fit but seems like it could improve. so what people have mentioned about the peter white article seems very practical...so my plan is to just keep a journal of my measurements and my thoughts on the changes and what i'm looking for...thus always having a point of reference and hopefully a better understanding of these changes...it has been interesting from happening to buy a serotta that was on sale to stumbling into this forum.from knowing so little about cycling to be able to sit back and watch the many points pondered has been quite helpful so thanks for all the information exchanged within here.....dave

[dbrk]

Fit is experience, yours and the experience of the fitter. Many of the best fitters I know take only a few measurements, size up and down with a keen eye, and they are essentially done. Whatever else they do is refinement and to make the client feel better about what they are doing, not unlike a very good doctor who knows exactly what is going on but then gives some bedside manner to make it intelligible and soothing.

It is also the case that fitters build to their experience. This means that most bike fitters have a certain conception of how and what sorts of bikes they fit (even if they think they can do all sorts of bikes). You don't go to the Ferrari dealer to buy a Jeep and while some fitters have a great deal of expertise in more than one style of bicycle, others are better suited to do what they know best (and so what they like best). I think the notion that one company and its instructions on fit can serve all sorts of riding is basic baloney. Look at a given company's bikes: do they really build in all styles of riding and fit as successfully as in all others? Uhhh....no. There is more than one style of riding, more than one kind of bicycle, more than one kind of fit. Sometimes it's best to divide the expertise over those who have it.

I've come to these conclusions after a long and very expensive process of trial and error. YMMV.

dbrk

[eddief]

for my fit and to build my frame. I think he nailed it dead on in less than 20 minutes. I chose him based on pricing and geographic proximity. What I ended up with is a frameset designed and built by someone who has done a boatload of all kinds of riding, but a big chunk of that has been on the kind of distance/comfort riding that I happen to do too. Pleased to have gotten it right on the first try. I had been through a bunch of off the rack stuff prior to bumping into Steve, so had some notion of where to start. Now all bikes, even the off the rack Rambouillet, are dialed into the Rex formula and it seems to work well.

[dbrk]

WOW... completely untrue! Why should you not be comfortable on your bike atr all times? If that is your case something is wrong with your position. If a rider has an efficient position, that his body is capable of. Than he/she SHOULD be cofortable, at all times.

After 300km on a brevet a rider is not comfortable on any bike, even a properly fit brevet bike. This is why a brevet/audax bike is built and designed to withstand the vageries that emerge with exhaustion. It's not that "comfort" bikes are for fat, old guys (only). It's that bikes should be designed to suit the style of riding -and- the rider. One fit does not size all.

dbrk

[loctite]

Fit is experience, yours and the experience of the fitter. Many of the best fitters I know take only a few measurements, size up and down with a keen eye, and they are essentially done. Whatever else they do is refinement and to make the client feel better about what they are doing, not unlike a very good doctor who knows exactly what is going on but then gives some bedside manner to make it intelligible and soothing.


What! are you telling me the best fitters only take a few measurements, and use a "keen eye" to fit you. In a world where CM's and even MM's make a huge differance, a good fitter is eyeballing it? That is like saying a carpenter when building a house could get by without a level or a square. Do you think the house would turn out ok? NO, a GOOD fitter will gather as much information as possible, only then can he use this info, along with experiance, to make the correct adjustments/recomendations! :argue:

However i agree with the second half of your post. It is true that certian fitters are more experianced in certain areas, the TT position is one that is most offten mis-fit by fitters with mostly road fit experiance..... look for a fitter that has experiance in your desired area!

[slowgoing]

Climb - go get refit on one of your current bikes. The best a fitter can do is find the perfect position at that particular point in time. If your body has changed a bit in the meatime so the fit isn't as comfortable, take a stab at having a professional see if he or she can make the necessary adjustments to bring back that comfort. They may know how to make some adjustment that wouldn't be obvious to you.

Good luck, bud!

[loctite]

After 300km on a brevet a rider is not comfortable on any bike, even a properly fit brevet bike. This is why a brevet/audax bike is built and designed to withstand the vageries that emerge with exhaustion. It's not that "comfort" bikes are for fat, old guys (only). It's that bikes should be designed to suit the style of riding -and- the rider. One fit does not size all.

dbrk

After 300km a rider is experiancing discomfort due to muscle fatigue and general soreness, even these variables can be eliminated if the rider is properly trained to ride this distance. If the bike is designed properly IT WILL NOT CONTRIBUTE to discomfort.

I agree however that bikes are designed/fit to suit certain riding styles and purposes. I wouldnt want to tackle a brevet on a TT bike! :cool:

[dbrk]

What! are you telling me the best fitters only take a few measurements, and use a "keen eye" to fit you. In a world where CM's and even MM's make a huge differance, a good fitter is eyeballing it?...? NO, a GOOD fitter will gather as much information as possible, only then can he use this info, along with experiance, to make the correct adjustments/recomendations! :argue:
\

Well, pal, it's just so. You can think that it can take hours to make a fit but shall I name names? I'd rather not. There are a few people who take a few measurements and draw their conclusions without a great deal of fuss. They are more than competent and, ime, they are actually the best fitters I have ever seen....this after having seen, heard, and been to dozens of others whose details resulted in something not nearly as good or as correct. Naming names is easy since such talented fitters are well-known bike designers with decades of experience each (and hundreds of years cumulatively). Go figure. I wouldn't let just any certified fitter (whatever that might mean) size me up but I would let the great ones. The issue is, is the fitter in that league. Not many. Very, very few.

dbrk

[dbrk]

After 300km a rider is experiancing discomfort due to muscle fatigue and general soreness, even these variables can be eliminated if the rider is properly trained to ride this distance. If the bike is designed properly IT WILL NOT CONTRIBUTE to discomfort.

I agree however that bikes are designed/fit to suit certain riding styles and purposes. I wouldnt want to tackle a brevet on a TT bike! :cool:

True enough that a bike should not contribute to the pain but the notion that one can ride any distance pain free is what we were discussing. So, I'm with you on this point.

And not for anything, I wouldn't want to ride a TT bike under any circumstances. Not that there is anything wrong with TTs or those sorts of bikes! :-)

dbrk

[bluesea]

That is like saying a carpenter when building a house could get by without a level or a square. Do you think the house would turn out ok?

I can. Its called a plumb bob and hypothenuse. I totally agree with dbrk's post. There's always more than one path to the truth.

[Fixed]

Bro I 've seen bikes that dudes had made from the fitters advise that look like something your mama would ride if they start puttin the bars up near your chin start running. they always think old guys can't bend over but some old guys are still fast and still able to hammer and can still bend into a racers pose.i.m.h.o. cheers
:beer:

[vaxn8r]

There is no perfection of fit because we are not static on the bike. A fit, whether it's your own trial and error or someone else's expert opinion, get's you in the ballpark to what you need to do on the bike. You'll sit differently on your seat when your climbing long grades in the saddle than when you are doing a fast 28-30 mph pull and those are different from sitting in at 30 mph. We move back and forth on our seats all the time to bring different muscle groups into play. Same with bars. You have the tops, the bend, the hoods and 2 positions on the drops. I use pretty much everything when the bike fits me. That's why I don't like seeing bars angled back. Yes, you are solving one problem of fit (reach) but losing out on several postions you could otherwise be using on every ride. If your bars are too short or too high you lose out on your ability to climb out of the saddle efficiently. Too low and, for me, I can't breath in the drops.

I would never trust a fitter to tell me something about fit. Mainly becuase I've spent 20+ years and many diffferent road bikes doing it myself. I feel I know my body, it's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else could possibly know by looking at me for 10 minutes or even 4 hours.

Good stuff here guys.

[loctite]

Well, pal, it's just so. You can think that it can take hours to make a fit but shall I name names? I'd rather not. There are a few people who take a few measurements and draw their conclusions without a great deal of fuss. They are more than competent and, ime, they are actually the best fitters I have ever seen....this after having seen, heard, and been to dozens of others whose details resulted in something not nearly as good or as correct. Naming names is easy since such talented fitters are well-known bike designers with decades of experience each (and hundreds of years cumulatively). Go figure. I wouldn't let just any certified fitter (whatever that might mean) size me up but I would let the great ones. The issue is, is the fitter in that league. Not many. Very, very few.

dbrk

I am not saying it takes several hours, and allot of fuss. But if the fitter does not take acuarte detailed differances, how will he detect such things as a leg length differance? I agree that the certification means nothing, it is the experiance, but the fittter should use all the information available to him, and apply it correctly. I also have experianced dozens of fitters in action, and i agree that the differances are, well, lets not go there. But to say a fitter that is detailed is not competent is absured. I would be intrested to know the names of the "masters" you speak of, maybe you could pm them to me...

[Fixed]

There is no perfection of fit because we are not static on the bike. A fit, whether it's your own trial and error or someone else's expert opinion, get's you in the ballpark to what you need to do on the bike. You'll sit differently on your seat when your climbing long grades in the saddle than when you are doing a fast 28-30 mph pull and those are different from sitting in at 30 mph. We move back and forth on our seats all the time to bring different muscle groups into play. Same with bars. You have the tops, the bend, the hoods and 2 positions on the drops. I use pretty much everything when the bike fits me. That's why I don't like seeing bars angled back. Yes, you are solving one problem of fit (reach) but losing out on several postions you could otherwise be using on every ride. If your bars are too short or too high you lose out on your ability to climb out of the saddle efficiently. Too low and, for me, I can't breath in the drops.

I would never trust a fitter to tell me something about fit. Mainly becuase I've spent 20+ years and many diffferent road bikes doing it myself. I feel I know my body, it's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else could possibly know by looking at me for 10 minutes or even 4 hours.

Good stuff here guys.bro I agree 100% well said dude cheers :beer:

[loctite]

There is no perfection of fit because we are not static on the bike. A fit, whether it's your own trial and error or someone else's expert opinion, get's you in the ballpark to what you need to do on the bike. You'll sit differently on your seat when your climbing long grades in the saddle than when you are doing a fast 28-30 mph pull and those are different from sitting in at 30 mph. We move back and forth on our seats all the time to bring different muscle groups into play. Same with bars. You have the tops, the bend, the hoods and 2 positions on the drops. I use pretty much everything when the bike fits me. That's why I don't like seeing bars angled back. Yes, you are solving one problem of fit (reach) but losing out on several postions you could otherwise be using on every ride. If your bars are too short or too high you lose out on your ability to climb out of the saddle efficiently. Too low and, for me, I can't breath in the drops.

I would never trust a fitter to tell me something about fit. Mainly becuase I've spent 20+ years and many diffferent road bikes doing it myself. I feel I know my body, it's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else could possibly know by looking at me for 10 minutes or even 4 hours.

Good stuff here guys.


I agree with you onmost of this, i to spent years racing (some as a Cat 2) and trial and error self fitting, before i felt i had dialed in my position. Dont discount a GOOD fitter, when i finally went to one of the best in the country, he didnt chane my position at all! Fitters a great for most riders, as most can be improved to some deree!

[dbrk]

I am not saying it takes several hours, and allot of fuss. ...But to say a fitter that is detailed is not competent is absured. I would be intrested to know the names of the "masters" you speak of, maybe you could pm them to me...

I made no such claim that detail-oriented fitters are not competent, only that my experience includes great fits from great bike designers who did not take the numbers or measurements to such lengths. Names? How about right here in public? Pegoretti spent about 15 minutes with me, looking up and down and up again, taking about six measurements. Mike Barry, whose Mariposa bicycles are among the most beautiful, detailed, and elegant in the world, fit me in about 20 minutes with nearly the same six measurements that Pegoretti used. There are a few others.

I am not disposed to denegrate or dismiss those fitters who choose a more detailed approach. I'm not at all saying there is only one way to fit and that is to find one of these I mention or their peers. I'm saying there is more than one way to do it; that there is no guarantee that detailed measurements add up to better fits. It depends and on a lot of things.

dbrk

[Fixed]

I agree with you onmost of this, i to spent years racing (some as a pro) and trial and error self fitting, before i felt i had dialed in my position. Dont discount a GOOD fitter, when i finally went to one of the best in the country, he didnt chane my position at all! Fitters a great for most riders, as most can be improved to some deree!bro what team or teams did you race for? cheers :beer:

[loctite]

bro what team or teams did you race for? cheers :beer:

Continental/TEVES 98-00 and DeFeet 01-02

[loctite]

I made no such claim that detail-oriented fitters are not competent, only that my experience includes great fits from great bike designers who did not take the numbers or measurements to such lengths. Names? How about right here in public? Pegoretti spent about 15 minutes with me, looking up and down and up again, taking about six measurements. Mike Barry, whose Mariposa bicycles are among the most beautiful, detailed, and elegant in the world, fit me in about 20 minutes with nearly the same six measurements that Pegoretti used. There are a few others.

I am not disposed to denegrate or dismiss those fitters who choose a more detailed approach. I'm not at all saying there is only one way to fit and that is to find one of these I mention or their peers. I'm saying there is more than one way to do it; that there is no guarantee that detailed measurements add up to better fits. It depends and on a lot of things.

dbrk

I guess we will agree to disagree, there is no way you received a competent fit in 15 mins. Good luck!

[eddief]

...the gospel truth. So much less complicated than considering other points of view.

[Ray]

What! are you telling me the best fitters only take a few measurements, and use a "keen eye" to fit you. In a world where CM's and even MM's make a huge differance, a good fitter is eyeballing it? That is like saying a carpenter when building a house could get by without a level or a square. Do you think the house would turn out ok? NO, a GOOD fitter will gather as much information as possible, only then can he use this info, along with experiance, to make the correct adjustments/recomendations! :argue:
Not that Douglas needs any backup, but the best fitting bike I have resulted from a fit session that only included a couple of measurements of my existing bike. KOPs was eyeballed with an old rusty keychain. But he watched me ride on a trainer from a bunch of angles, made a few changes to my position, asked a LOT of questions about what kind of riding I do and how different parts of my body felt in different positions, said a few magic incantations, and that was that. Resutls have been fantastic, so I think it comes down to experience and intuition more than numbers for the best of these folks.

-Ray

[700 x 23c]

Tough job being a fitter. After all, if you really "want" or "need" a custom fit, how likely is it that the fitter will get you spot-on on one try? Any change from one bike position to another will feel a bit strange during an adjustment period. Also, those of us who are "anal" (myself included) about slight changes in position have to be difficult to work with. Those who don't really notice position differences, would probably do just as well with the old "stand over the bike....does the handlebar block the hub......" type of fit.

[jerk]

I guess we will agree to disagree, there is no way you received a competent fit in 15 mins. Good luck!

yes there is.

and as an aside many people have received incompetent fits that took hours upon hours.

jerk

[bluesea]

Its clear now that loctite is an elite level rider. It might be that he has access to services the average rider might not have or could not fully benefit from, because they are not at the same absolute peak level with the physical self-awareness that goes with it. I can definitely appreciate his viewpoint.

[loctite]

...the gospel truth. So much less complicated than considering other points of view.

i am very open to other poins of view, and happen to agree with DBRK on 8 out of 10 issues. I just dont agree that you can receive a competent fit in 15min by "eyeballing" a position. ...the gospel truth....if you say so :D

[jerk]

you clearly know very little about how competent bicycle design comes about. 20 minutes of measurements by a frame builder of the stature of dario pegoretti will yield a far better starting point than a three hour "fit session" with just about anyone else.
hell, having your wife take the measurements prescribed in the coni manual will yield a better designed frame than a three hour "fit session" with just about any bike shop monkey or other loser trying to make a living selling $300 fits and other snake oil.


jerk

[Fixed]

bro you were on the same team as roberto gaggiolli? Jerk you da man .cheers :beer:

[loctite]

you clearly know very little about how competent bicycle design comes about. 20 minutes of measurements by a frame builder of the stature of dario pegoretti will yield a far better starting point than a three hour "fit session" with just about anyone else.
hell, having your wife take the measurements prescribed in the coni manual will yield a better designed frame than a three hour "fit session" with just about any bike shop monkey or other loser trying to make a living selling $300 fits and other snake oil.


jerk

true there are allot of "mokeys" out there that havent a clue what they are doing, and i am not by any means saying that Pegoretti is not an excellent designer builder. My only point was is that the more time and attention to detail a COMPETENT and EXPERIANCED fitter/designer would take, the better the end result. Provided he/she is actually truely skilled and experianced.

But after all "the jerk is always right", sorry i dared to have my own opinion!

[loctite]

bro you were on the same team as roberto gaggiolli? cheers :beer:
Yes, you know Roberto? I consider it a priviage to have raced with guys like Roberto and Chris Harkey! That was the best season of my lame career! :beer:

[jerk]

true there are allot of "mokeys" out there that havent a clue what they are doing, and i am not by any means saying that Pegoretti is not an excellent designer builder. My only point was is that the more time and attention to detail a COMPETENT and EXPERIANCED fitter/designer would take, the better the end result. Provided he/she is actually truely skilled and experianced.

But after all "the jerk is always right", sorry i dared to have my own opinion!


it's allright. just don't do it again. ;)

when it gets beyond the 15minute measurement thing, you're really in the realm of coaching to get anything more out of "fit". unless, you're in a wind tunnell stationary bicycle fit beyond cursory is pretty useless....now riding with a client, racing with a client, now the jerk will agree with you that position and technique can be improved....nonetheless, it's not going to change the starting point that can be achieved by an experienced and detailed eye in a few minutes. we're really talking about coaching at this point.

jerk

[coylifut]

WOW... completely untrue! Why should you not be comfortable on your bike atr all times? If that is your case something is wrong with your position. If a rider has an efficient position, that his body is capable of. Than he/she SHOULD be cofortable, at all times. :argue:

when I'm over my limit, stuck in the gutter in a cross wind-barely holding on, I get a little un comfortable. I don't think it's a fit issue it's more just that I'm getting my @ss kicked.

I've only met a few people who've done Paris-Brest-Paris, but according to them, they weren't 100% comfortable all the time.

[Fixed]

Yes, you know Roberto? I consider it a priviage to have raced with guys like Roberto and Chris Harkey! That was the best season of my lame career! :beer:
bro I saw him race in dade city a few years ago he won I crashed in the cat 3's and broke my new bike cheers :beer:

[Sandy]

Communication + Science + Experience + Insight + Foresight = Artful Fit



Having a fit getting fit,


Sandy

[Climb01742]

suddenly it's winter in new england. it was 32 this morning. yikes. spent an interesting 3 hours riding with a buddy who...has as smooth a pedal stroke as i've ever seen...was a pro racer...has every certification serotta has...he made an interesting point...there are fitters who believe in the numbers...and there are fitters who believe in their eye and experience...for different riders each method can work...he said what others have said here...over time you become your own fitter...i gotta be patient...experiment...work on my core strength, flexibility and muscle imbalances...we long for silver bullets that don't exist...

hey jerk, my buddy met you this week...said you weren't a jerk...you may have to change your handle... :rolleyes:

[jerk]

suddenly it's winter in new england. it was 32 this morning. yikes. spent an interesting 3 hours riding with a buddy who...has as smooth a pedal stroke as i've ever seen...was a pro racer...has every certification serotta has...he made an interesting point...there are fitters who believe in the numbers...and there are fitters who believe in their eye and experience...for different riders each method can work...he said what others have said here...over time you become your own fitter...i gotta be patient...experiment...work on my core strength, flexibility and muscle imbalances...we long for silver bullets that don't exist...

hey jerk, my buddy met you this week...said you weren't a jerk...you may have to change your handle... :rolleyes:

tricked him eh?

jerk

when are we all going to get together for a ride?

[Climb01742]

when are we all going to get together for a ride?

what? so i can get a swell view of two butts, not just one? :p

maybe when i get back from overseas. i'm going on a business trip for basically all of november. then you two can really kick my butt. oh joy.

ps: soon you may be knee deep in french carbon, eh?

[jerk]

what? so i can get a swell view of two butts, not just one? :p

maybe when i get back from overseas. i'm going on a business trip for basically all of november. then you two can really kick my butt. oh joy.

ps: soon you may be knee deep in french carbon, eh?


could be fun!

[ClayM]

Great thread, everybody.

There's a lot of appreciation out there for positive results (naturally) and a lot of honest appreciation and respect for the practice of fitting and its practitioners, too.

Paul's physician comparison is perfect: training & education creates a good foundation but the fitter needs to apply it effectively and continue building on it, forever. Innate talent varies. The Serotta Fit School is the best opportunity for a person to gain extensive understanding and develop fitting skills but the amount of information being conveyed in such a short time frame does make it kind of like drinking from a firehose. And once you leave Fit School, you might get to do a dozen custom fits in a year or a dozen in a month. Repetition is a great imprinter.

I also like loctite's remarks: a comfortable position will result in comfort...all the time. A rider can experience extreme muscle fatigue while still feeling naturally and comfortably perched on the bike.

The volleys about the time a fitting can/should take are telling. Time becomes a prominent piece of evidence to explain either remarkable skill or the cause of a failure to achieve desired results. The constant is the result, not the time. Ultimately, I suppose it doesn't matter how long it takes as long as the results are positive. But I am certain many retail clients would be skeptical of the value of a costly fitting that doesn't occupy a significant chunk of time even when the results are positive.

In our store, fitting is the most acutely satisfying part of our work. It's like pulling thorns out of lions' paws all day long. Collectively (we have four Serotta trained fitters), we do from 60 to over 100 fits every month. The combination of frequency, experience and a collective knowledge base generates lots of positive results. And we are still learning.

For me, it's both art and science but I'd say the art is mostly in the communication effort while the science is in the biomechanical understanding.

ClayM

[loctite]

Great thread, everybody.

There's a lot of appreciation out there for positive results (naturally) and a lot of honest appreciation and respect for the practice of fitting and its practitioners, too.

Paul's physician comparison is perfect: training & education creates a good foundation but the fitter needs to apply it effectively and continue building on it, forever. Innate talent varies. The Serotta Fit School is the best opportunity for a person to gain extensive understanding and develop fitting skills but the amount of information being conveyed in such a short time frame does make it kind of like drinking from a firehose. And once you leave Fit School, you might get to do a dozen custom fits in a year or a dozen in a month. Repetition is a great imprinter.

I also like loctite's remarks: a comfortable position will result in comfort...all the time. A rider can experience extreme muscle fatigue while still feeling naturally and comfortably perched on the bike.

The volleys about the time a fitting can/should take are telling. Time becomes a prominent piece of evidence to explain either remarkable skill or the cause of a failure to achieve desired results. The constant is the result, not the time. Ultimately, I suppose it doesn't matter how long it takes as long as the results are positive. But I am certain many retail clients would be skeptical of the value of a costly fitting that doesn't occupy a significant chunk of time even when the results are positive.

In our store, fitting is the most acutely satisfying part of our work. It's like pulling thorns out of lions' paws all day long. Collectively (we have four Serotta trained fitters), we do from 60 to over 100 fits every month. The combination of frequency, experience and a collective knowledge base generates lots of positive results. And we are still learning.

For me, it's both art and science but I'd say the art is mostly in the communication effort while the science is in the biomechanical understanding.

ClayM


Well said Clay...what is the name of your Shop?|

[ClayM]

Thanks, loctite.

It's City Cycle of San Francisco

[e-RICHIE]

i agree with dbrk and the jerk.

[e-RICHIE]

What! are you telling me the best fitters only take a few measurements, and use a "keen eye" to fit you.<cut>


that works for me.

[Dr. Doofus]

that works for me.

seems to work for that kellogg guy too

[Fixed]

that works for me.bro the master and the student e-RICHIE is one of the masters.dad just came home.cheers :beer:

[Dr. Doofus]

there is nothing your doofus can really add to this thread. after sleeping a lot, reading a lot, and eating a lot for the last week, your doof observes:

doof used to know a guy who lived about fifteen miles away and made really good jazz guitars. he would watch your fingering technique and trace your hand and then make you a guitar. they are amazing, every guy loves his....

the point is he had both an intuitive and an analytical understanding of exactly what he was doing, and crafted the guitar neck and fingerboard to match the player.

a good framebuilder will do the same. a shop rat who has read a bunch of books won't. fit is both an art and a science, but doof will take the old guy with loads of the former over the charlatan-geek with the latter.

speaking of which...lemme see...how is doof gonna get that fit short of driving to the barn or loading up the bed of the 88 S-10 with twizzlers...?

[Len J]

that works for me.

Well, that ends that debate.

Len

[Big Dan]

Debate over...any other threads for tonight????


:banana:



IMHO the fit can only get you so far. Once in a while you just need to go out with your allen wrenches and try some stuff..... :D
Changes in saddle, pedals,handlebars, stems and even shoes make a difference...

[e-RICHIE]

...loading up the bed of the 88 S-10 with twizzlers...?



doof
i'm on the road with the team. the fast kid says "hi". he's
doin' fine and has good form. dela today, philly tomorrow.
roger, roger.
vector, victor.
over.

[Dr. Doofus]

tell the fast kid hey and he can afford to buy you a pizza now

yo jerk, check out your senor mail...doof is bored...

[Climb01742]

roger, roger.
vector, victor.
over.

and don't call me shirley.

[e-RICHIE]

and don't call me shirley.


is writing ad copy art or science?
sorry. wrong forum.
bananas.

16% left on battery. see ya.

[shinomaster]

Any good artist can see things, and usually quickly.

[Johny]

Of course fitting is NOT science. The results are not even reproducible. :D

[Kane]

Ben Serotta fit me in 15 minutes and most of that time was spent showing me how to get the results on the fit cycle!

Clay of City Cycle is the orchestra conductor, but Craig carries most of the fitting load at 'City Cycle' in S.F. Craig has fit me for a mountain and a road bike. Each fit took over an hour and with great results. Of course much of the time was spent answering my questions.

If you ever get to S.F. make a trip to City Cycle and see why it is my favorite bike store from the Alantic to the Pacific. The staff is very talented and everthing is done right the first time. The staff has some gray hair here and there (at least on the ones that have hair) and a lot of experience. Of course it starts at the top with Clay, who happens to be one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

I send patients to City Cycle when they want to get a new bike or solve a problem associated with what they are riding. The feedback has always been excellent.

Cheers,


Kane

P.S.
Loctite, consider using the green instead of the red. Actually, it was really funny when you doubted Douglas's fit results. Likely, Douglas has had more bad fits than anyone over the years, if only because he has had so many fits.

[shaq-d]

i guess i'll say my own 2cents. i definitely buy into the thinking that eyeballing works. it's just experience there.

as for me, i have 3 bikes with different fits. one is racy, and the comfy-racy and commuter have similar dimensions. just about everything was figured out with what "felt" right. this includes saddle height, which took months and thousands of km's to figure out. and also varies with my conditioning. the stem length same thing. last year, my first road bike year, i still did lots of kilometers in the racy-but-not-as-comfy setup. this year i've done more in the comfyer setup. after the initial number-crunching to get teh first frame, it's all been "eyeballing" it...or more accurately, "feeling" it from a first person point of view. rely on yourself to figure out what's right...

and as for the search for the perfect position, i doubt it; and wasn't it hinault or merckx or something who was always, always, fiddling with saddle height?

in essence, if i could: seems to me you don't need a fit technician to get the right fit. to quote my favourite philosopher/theologian, s. kierkegaard:

subjectivity is truth.

sd

[Michael Katz]

The debate over "eyeballing" versus "measurements" is an interesting one. Wonder how the proponents of each would correlate to left side/ right side cognitive processing (a topic for a neurological forum)? In any event, there is no question that with the right fitter/designer, "eyeballing" can work marvelously. As noted by others, the results of folks like Tom Kellogg and e-richie speak for themselves. And doing it "by the numbers" is no guarantee for success. My own experience tells me that. The worst designed custom bike I had was built strictly "by the numbers". Maybe the key is the process of communication - in all of its complexity both visual and verbal, expressed and observed. If so, which is more likely to achieve the desired results - a fitting with an experienced designer who sees you in person but takes no body measurements or a fitting with an experienced fitter who takes a load of body measurements and gives them to a designer who never sees you?

I've also found interesting and thought provoking the comments about perceived fit as your conditioning changes or as you get fatigued or approach exhaustion on a ride. Causes me to rethink some of the earlier conclusions I stated.

[manet]

eye i-ball measurements.

dimensions and their specific applications are easily memorized _ chucked
into the bag-of-constantly-used-thoughts (like the first time you saw your
friends hot sister in her bra _ in my case it was my friends hot mother, as she still retained what got her crowned miss minnesota).

i install art in the big apple and its orchard(s). to keep the day awake, the
game is "guess the height". pick a number, usually the center height of the
piece being hung, mark it, and then put the tape to your mark to see how accurate the guess. you name it: 57 3/8", 60"... whatever, one quickly (for me 20+ yrs. now) absorbs this ability, astounding audiences of artsy women with this feat.
when the ladies get bored of that game, i move on to eye-balling 2 level marks on the wall.

sinatra ain't got nothing on me _ besides, he's dead.

[93legendti]

my question is born out of frustration.

i think a simple fundamental goal most of us share is to ride pain free. close behind is to find a position that feels comfortable and powerful. a position that allows us to feel part of our bike, in harmony with it, rather than this vague sense of fighting the bike a bit, or a nagging sense of slight awkwardness on the bike, or a restless shifting around on our bikes.

maybe i'm searching for something that doesn't exist. it feels like my position on a bike is improving, that i'm getting more comfortable, but something still doesn't feel quite right. maybe i'm 80-90% there.

i've been fit by three serotta certified fitters. who had three opinions that differed not by mm's, but by cm's. i'm not posting this out of anger or as a criticism, not at all. i'm just frustrated and curious.

how much of fitting someone is science -- meaning certain principles that aren't too terribly open to interpretation -- and how much is an art -- meaning each fitter free to "customize" fit principles? how much is based on objective measurements -- body lengths -- and how much is based on less quantifiable factors -- like what feels "right" to a rider or below the surface body abnormalities like flexibility issues or muscle imbalances?

if a fitting is based on more objective criteria, then the idea of a "certified" fitter makes more sense. but if enough of what makes a fitter good is personal and interpretive and subjective, then does the notion of "certified" make sense? if three different "certified" fitters can arrive at three different fits, what does "certification" actually mean?

again, i'm not criticizing. i'm frustrated and sore. maybe my expectations for what any fitter can do are unrealistic. maybe what makes me sore and fidgety on a bike now aren't fit issues but flexibility issues or muscle imbalance issues. how would i find out and who would i go -- who could i trust -- to find out?

in theory, certification is a great idea. but in the real world, is it workable? what is a rider buying when they buy a certified fit? :confused:

Where's your pain/soreness? Maybe you could post a pic of your bike(s)?

[Fixed]

Bro I know I/m just a dumb bike mess. but it seems to me why go thru a middle man to get a custom bike what would be better than to go on a road trip to see the man who will make your bike face to face and see his shop and tools >if I had the bread my dream trip go see e-RICHIE bug him for a couple of days go ride'n let him see you ride, let him go make your bike the way he sees you. bro a picture is worth a 1000 words. cheers :beer:

[mwos]

Great discussion, and it is helping me to clarify what I'm looking for in a fitter. To me using the "eyeball" vs "measurement" method is not all that black and white. One method is not better than the other but its the knowledge and experience of the fitter and the rider.

Until I bought my mtn bike "eyeballing" was the method the fitters used. The bikes never fit. So I'd go through this scenario. I'd read about bicycle fit, tweaked the bikes myself, nose down works, great, now I slide forward, feel better but I'm riding on the nose, slide back now I'm on the saddle but can't reach the pedals. Hmm. Up, down, forward, back. Kop position, can't quite get my knee over the pedal but I'm close.

Maybe my shoulders hurt because I have a weak upper body, into the gym. Oh, I'm riding with locked elbows and a rounded back but if I try flatten my back it feels worse, can't hold the position and I go bike to a rounded back.

So bike fit was more compromise than fit. As I learned more, and companies started making products for small people I'd go to the LBS and have them make changes, shorter stem, smaller handlebars, etc. Always thinking I'd found the solution.

When I bought my Aegis in 2000, I went to a person who was considered the best fitter in the area, it was the LBS I was using and felt very comfortable that I would get a good fit. He looked at my old bike, which he had seen me on, took some measurements of it, compared the measurements, ordered the frame. When the frame came in he set the new bike up exactly like the old.
The fit wasn't right so I took it home and started tweaking!

The old frames were to big, or wrong geometry, but this frame was supposed to be perfect for me so why was I still going through the same things?

Then I bought my mtn bike and was fitted on it by a Serotta fitter, who measured but also eyeballed the fit. To this day I have tweaked nothing, made no changes and I can't see that any are needed.

The fit on the mtn bike brought home to me that something was wrong with my road bike, so I went back to the bike shop I bought it from. Using the eyeball method the bike was deemed a good fit.

Out of sheer frustration, I consulted a Serotta fitter, Kathy Krumme, who has built a good reputation as a bike fitter in Cincinnati. Though a combination of measurements and her "experienced eye" it turned out that my handlebars were 4cm to low and instead of a seat post with a setback I needed a 0 degree seat post to get proper position over the pedals. Exact same things were done to the mtn bike.

I made the changes she suggested and I've put 7k miles on the bike since then and I'm very pleased with my fit with no tweaking or changes. I also took the old bikes back to Kathy and they feel so much better with those changes.

I know that a lot of my experiences "were due to the times" 1995 vs 2005 and ideas about bike fit have changed so I can't fault these people for their mistakes. However, I can't help to think that through the "eyeballing" method that someone didn't catch the fact that my handlebars were too low or my saddle to far back.

I feel like the analogy to the doctor, I've been misdiagnosed for so many years.

Ironically, after my experience last summer with my former fitter, I was in the shop a few months later and one of the guys working for him had taken training with a fit system, not Serotta, and is now doing the fittings!

Kathi

[davids]

This is the question that rattles around in my head.

I've never gone through a complete fitting process, just had existing bikes adjusted. And I'm approaching the moment where I get serious about the next bike.

But I've been told repeatedly (after being eyeballed) that I'm pretty "normally" proportioned. So, I'm guessing I don't need an edge-of-the-bell-curve size, and that someone could easily set up a stock geo bike with the correct combination of spacers, stem and seatpost to get me very comfortable. Plus, I'd get the benefit of the well-thought-out, time-tested geometries that even the likes of Serotta publish as "stock". Why should I want another geometry if I can comfortably ride one of these standard geos?

This question became even more acute for me as I've started test-riding bikes. I've ridden a decent number now, including stock frames from the likes of Orbea, Trek, and Cannondale, and who-knows (were they "stock" goes or some designer's whim?) frames from Serotta, Seven, and Parlee. The BEST handling, most confidence-inspiring frame I've yet to ride was a 54cm Fierte Ti. Completely stock geometry, of course.

Should I just get a Fierte and be done with it? Or could there be some small tweak that's going to take my custom-geo bike to a whole 'nother level? Could it all be about the paint?

[mwos]

The Fierte is also the most inspiring frame design for me. I attribute that to the design being what my Serotta fit indicated is a good design for me and is similar to the way my Aegis is now built. I would buy it but I didn't like the steel or ti feel.

I'm spoiled with carbon!

Kathi

[davids]

The Fierte is also the most inspiring frame design for me. I attribute that to the design being what my Serotta fit indicated is a good design for me and is similar to the way my Aegis is now built. I would buy it but I didn't like the steel or ti feel.

I'm spoiled with carbon!

Kathi
Have you seen this (http://www.serotta.com/pages/fierte_IT.html)? I rode a full-Ti Fierte and a Nove back-to-back. As I said, the Fierte fit me and handled better than anything else I rode. But that carbon/Ti Nove felt pretty d@mn good. Combine the fit and handling of the Fierte Ti with the smoothness of the Nove? I've got my fingers crossed for the Fierte IT! If only they would reconsider those horrible chevron decals... :no: :no: :no:

And I'm hoping someone will seriously address my question...

[loctite]

This is the question that rattles around in my head.

I've never gone through a complete fitting process, just had existing bikes adjusted. And I'm approaching the moment where I get serious about the next bike.

But I've been told repeatedly (after being eyeballed) that I'm pretty "normally" proportioned. So, I'm guessing I don't need an edge-of-the-bell-curve size, and that someone could easily set up a stock geo bike with the correct combination of spacers, stem and seatpost to get me very comfortable. Plus, I'd get the benefit of the well-thought-out, time-tested geometries that even the likes of Serotta publish as "stock". Why should I want another geometry if I can comfortably ride one of these standard geos?

This question became even more acute for me as I've started test-riding bikes. I've ridden a decent number now, including stock frames from the likes of Orbea, Trek, and Cannondale, and who-knows (were they "stock" goes or some designer's whim?) frames from Serotta, Seven, and Parlee. The BEST handling, most confidence-inspiring frame I've yet to ride was a 54cm Fierte Ti. Completely stock geometry, of course.

Should I just get a Fierte and be done with it? Or could there be some small tweak that's going to take my custom-geo bike to a whole 'nother level? Could it all be about the paint?


David, Just a few things that may help you decide. You can not be "eyeballed" and tell acurately if you are evenly propotioned or not. Consider femur length, this is directly related to your knee position over the pedal. If you have a proportionityl short femur, stock seat tube angles will put you too far back, forcing you to jam the saddle all the way forward to try and get to where you should be. Most saddles only have 60-80mm of rail adjustment so you dont have allot to work with. Just an example of why it is so important to be acurately evaluated, not just eyeballed.

You may very well work great on a stock frame, as stock frames are made to fit "average" sized riders. Chances are though you could benifit in some way from a custom geometry. If you are thinking of something other than a Fierte go for custom, it dosent cost anything extra, and it will be worth the wait.

Second, beware of testrides! They are extreamly missleading, to get an acurate feel for the frame, all the bikes you are testing must have the same wheels, tires, fork, and close to the same components. And the must be set up for the same riding position. Wheels/tires GREATLY affect the way a bike rides, so much of what you are feeling on a "test ride" are things other than the frame. The test ride is not completly useless, but it can be extreamly missleading.

This website has a wealth of info and advice on new bike buying and fitting:
http://fitwerx.com/
good luck!

[loctite]

And I'm hoping someone will seriously address my question...

I think i just did! ;)

[davids]

I think i just did! ;)
Yes, you did, thank you! I definitely intend to put my own wheels on the "short list" bikes I've tested.

My test rides have been about 30 minutes, enough to get a sense for the bikes' 'feel'. I do take them with a grain of salt, but I honestly don't know what else to do. Without these rides, I'd be making my choices completely in the dark.

My plan of attack is to go through the fitting process (unless I can be talked out of it, and that doesn't seem likely...) and then try to ride examples of the top candidates. These include both custom and stock bikes. After that, and with the results of the fitting, I'll make my choice.

[vaxn8r]

Second, beware of testrides! They are extreamly missleading, to get an acurate feel for the frame, all the bikes you are testing must have the same wheels, tires, fork, and close to the same components. And the must be set up for the same riding position. Wheels/tires GREATLY affect the way a bike rides, so much of what you are feeling on a "test ride" are things other than the frame. The test ride is not completly useless, but it can be extreamly missleading.


I could not agree more. Three are so many variables, unless your testride is taking the bike home for a couple of hundred miles it is going to be of very limited value.

[vaxn8r]

This thread is driving me crazy...on the way to work today I must have fidgeted with my driving position for 5 minutes wondering if it was just right. Seat height, reach to wheel, recline....

Stop already with the "perfect fit" stuff. :crap: :crap: :crap:

:D

[Fixed]

bro what's more to say e-RICHIE has already told us about it. cheers :beer:

[mwos]

Have you seen this (http://www.serotta.com/pages/fierte_IT.html)? I rode a full-Ti Fierte and a Nove back-to-back. As I said, the Fierte fit me and handled better than anything else I rode. But that carbon/Ti Nove felt pretty d@mn good. Combine the fit and handling of the Fierte Ti with the smoothness of the Nove? I've got my fingers crossed for the Fierte IT! If only they would reconsider those horrible chevron decals... :no: :no: :no:

And I'm hoping someone will seriously address my question...


Yes, I have seen that and I'm thinking the same way you are, depending on the the closeness of the fit. I also rode the Nove and the Fierte Ti back to back and even though the Nove was too big I liked the feel better.

Kathi

[palincss]

Fit is science and its art and it changes as your level of conditioning changes. The goal of a good fitting bike is to design it to have room to adapt to the future possiblities of where we would anticipate your conditioning going forward as you progress like a Keno or backwards if you lay off the bike and your base deterorates and you need to take a step back.

I've yet to see any mention of the fact that over time your body ages and changes. 10-15 years can make a tremendous difference, and can turn a comfortable position into an unsustainable one, irrespective of conditioning. Handlebar height relative to saddle height is an obvious example.

[bulliedawg]

The best baseball scouts can tell if a guy has major league chops by watching him play for a few innings; they don't need to see his numbers to know the truth.

Same goes for bike fitters I reckon.

[93legendti]

The best baseball scouts can tell if a guy has major league chops by watching him play for a few innings; they don't need to see his numbers to know the truth.

Same goes for bike fitters I reckon.


You mean baseball scouts stopped using radar guns on pitchers and stopped timing runners on how long it takes them to get to first base? I guess things have changed since I was a ball player... :)

Just teasin' ya...my fitter doesn't use measurements either.

[keno]

Just what is the fitter eyeballing?

If the fitter is just looking at you standing in his shop, that, to me, is eyeballing. If you have your bike on his trainer, that's another story, particularly if that is the last in a long line of bikes that have been fit for you by various means. It's one thing to eyeball from scratch, and another to tweak a given by eye. If the first case, the rider is the only data, while in the second case there is plenty of data in the bike along with the rider pedaling it in a trainer.

Now, if you told me of a fitter who was an earballer, one who could do a first class fit based on a phone conversation having never seen you, that would be something.

keno

[manet]

Now, if you told me of a fitter who was an earballer, one who could do a first class fit based on a phone conversation having never seen you, that would be something.

keno

in germany: h'earballer
not to be confused with your house cat.

[loctite]

in germany: h'earballer
not to be confused with your house cat.
:D :D :D :D

[Ginger]

Alrighty then...I've read the entire thread now. And I'm going to chime in.

To me, there's fit; then there's technique/mechanics. I think a fitter can fit you to proper mechanics, or they can fit you to how you ride at that moment in time.

I was fit by two fitters for my current custom bike. Basically 15-20 minutes and an hour +.
The bikes they came up with were a touch different, but the numbers for my three points in space were basically the same. And that's what I was there for. The bike was built, and I started riding it. It was much more comfortable than any other bike I'd ridden, but I wasn't really comfortable on it. I didn't feel efficient.

I went back this summer to one of the fitters and he watched me on the bike and adjusted my position. Actually, except for raising the saddle a little he left the bike alone. Instead he moved *me* on the bike. I was rotating my hips too far forward. So my discomfort on the bike had nothing to do with the bike or the fit of the bike and everything to do with my mechanics on the bike.

Fitting is art, but perhaps your issue isn't the fit of the bike Climb?

Just something to think about.

[Andreu]

is a science. We just do not realise it yet and attribute all the unexplainable bits to art.
A

[Climb01742]

Fitting is art, but perhaps your issue isn't the fit of the bike Climb? Just something to think about.

you may be quite right, ginger. not all discomfort comes from fit/position. i may be trying to solve an issue with fit that can't be solved that way. i've begun, in a dedicated way (vs the haphazard way i did before) to work on my core strength, and some specific muscle weakness/imbalance/tightness issues. winter seems like a good time to do that.

[zap]

is a science. We just do not realise it yet and attribute all the unexplainable bits to art.
A

I agree 100%



I've yet to see any mention of the fact that over time your body ages and changes. 10-15 years can make a tremendous difference, and can turn a comfortable position into an unsustainable one, irrespective of conditioning. Handlebar height relative to saddle height is an obvious example.
Yesterday 05:32 PM

Steve, there's a reason no one has mentioned it. Conditioning becomes more important as you get older, but there are plenty of examples even in PPTC of riders who are able to maintain the same aggressive position after 15-20 years. There are some who have worked hard on core strength and were able to lengthen their stem and lower their h/bar by a visible amount even after 20+ years of riding.

[Dr. Doofus]

Steve, there's a reason no one has mentioned it. Conditioning becomes more important as you get older, but there are plenty of examples even in PPTC of riders who are able to maintain the same aggressive position after 15-20 years. There are some who have worked hard on core strength and were able to lengthen their stem and lower their h/bar by a visible amount even after 20+ years of riding.

speaking of which -- have you noticed how everyone who goes to CSC gets longer and lower after a year? Doof would like to know what they do with the Swiss Ball....

there are a lot of fit variables...core strength and lumbar flexibility are just two. Doof has both in spades, but can't get beyond 56cm to bar center without rolling weight off his sit bones and onto his privates... Always wondered why "I" haven't been able to stretch out more...but at a certain point you just have to go with what the body gives you...

[Fixed]

bro here is one for you I don't think you sit on a bike locked on a trainer the same way you do on the road.cheers :beer:

[loctite]

bro here is one for you I don't think you sit on a bike locked on a trainer the same way you do on the road.cheers :beer:

True, i find myself lower on the road.

[Fixed]

bro I agree. cheers :beer:

[andy mac]

bro here is one for you I don't think you sit on a bike locked on a trainer the same way you do on the road.cheers :beer:

i was thinking a similar thing having just been through the fit process again.

peddling for 15 to 30 minutes in short bursts on a trainer under the watchful gaze of a professional i bet most of us are on our best behavior vs what happens a few hours into a ride in the real world after fatigue sets in, you stop paying attention, stare at the soccer moms etc etc.

[zap]

speaking of which -- have you noticed how everyone who goes to CSC gets longer and lower after a year? Doof would like to know what they do with the Swiss Ball....

there are a lot of fit variables...core strength and lumbar flexibility are just two. Doof has both in spades, but can't get beyond 56cm to bar center without rolling weight off his sit bones and onto his privates... Always wondered why "I" haven't been able to stretch out more...but at a certain point you just have to go with what the body gives you...

I agree that there are many variables. Based on my limited exposure to fitters (thank god), not many seem to grasp quite a number of these variables. Steve Hogg at cyclingnews is an exception of course.

I read a medical study some weeks ago were they measured males down below in an attempt to better understand a male "issue". No, it wasn't cycling related. But it did get me thinking about this particular matter and it's possible impact on bike fit.

A quick look ;) at CSC riders does indicate that something good is going on in Bjarne's world.

[loctite]

[QUOTE=zap

A quick look ;) at CSC riders does indicate that something good is going on in Bjarne's world.[/QUOTE]

Good, or bad depends on who you ask, He (Riis) insist on his riders having a "Bernad Hinault" position. If taht was the far superior or "good" position why dont we see the rest of the peloton with a 12+ cm drop? For example, Look at Armstrong (as much as im NOT a fan) his position is very upright (tt and road) compared to the CSC boys. Maybe he knows something most of us dont ;)

[Fixed]

Good, or bad depends on who you ask, He (Riis) insist on his riders having a "Bernad Hinault" position. If taht was the far superior or "good" position why dont we see the rest of the peloton with a 12+ cm drop? For example, Look at Armstrong (as much as im NOT a fan) his position is very upright (tt and road) compared to the CSC boys. Maybe he knows something most of us dont ;)bro I don't know very much but I thought most pros do have a lot of drop.Oh yeah I don't remember the badger having a lot more drop than other riders of his time but I don;t know a lot about racing like most of the guys here.cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: If taht was the far superior or "good" position why dont we see the rest of the peloton with a 12+ cm drop?



that's the team standard?

[Dr. Doofus]

Good, or bad depends on who you ask, He (Riis) insist on his riders having a "Bernad Hinault" position. If taht was the far superior or "good" position why dont we see the rest of the peloton with a 12+ cm drop? For example, Look at Armstrong (as much as im NOT a fan) his position is very upright (tt and road) compared to the CSC boys. Maybe he knows something most of us dont ;)


the csc crew have their drops a tad lower than hinault did, proportionte to the rest of their fit points...although most of the cscs are much taller (five ten to six two) than hinault...their back profiles are flatter in the drops...given their success, it seems to be a position that works for them...

and lance's position worked for him...and post-cancer, his position was fugly...humped back, arms way stretched...but it was how he could ride most powerfully with his new body, and if nothing else, it showed how useless blathering about an ideal position is. the best tour rider in history looked awful on a bike, compared to jacques, eddy, bernard, miguel, stephen, greg, and bjarne...and it didn't freaking matter...he found a spot that gave him good weight distribution, power output, and comfort, and went with it

doof does crap-headed things like call up the jerk and neurotically debate about whether moving his saddle 1cm this way or that will affect his weight distribution...which is asinine...and doof has been a man of a thousand positions...and none of them were much "faster" than the others, but some felt more confortable and "body balanced" than others...so doof moves crap around until his weight is on his sit bones, his arms are reasonably stretched out, and he feels comfy and strong on the the thing...and he will swear here on a stack of CONI manuals that he isn't going to fiddle with anything anymore because it just doesn't matter, and the only persons who he would trust to tell him anything meaningful about racing position are fat guys who used to do kermesses, fat guys who watch a lot of kermesses and win when they bet, or fit guys from connecticut who made red bikes

and anatomic bars suck

[e-RICHIE]

and doof has been a man of a thousand positions...



you and wilt chamberlain.

[zap]

Good, or bad depends on who you ask, He (Riis) insist on his riders having a "Bernad Hinault" position. If taht was the far superior or "good" position why dont we see the rest of the peloton with a 12+ cm drop? For example, Look at Armstrong (as much as im NOT a fan) his position is very upright (tt and road) compared to the CSC boys. Maybe he knows something most of us dont ;)

The team got some good results and Bjarne turned one or two careers around.

I think Lance has a bad back.

[weisan]

...and the only persons who he would trust to tell him anything meaningful about racing position are fat guys who used to do kermesses, fat guys who watch a lot of kermesses and win when they bet, or fit guys from connecticut who made red bikes

The DOofUs' use of plural can only mean that he's talkin' abot these guys:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/imperrfections/blog1/oompa_loompa.jpg

[Dr. Doofus]

you and wilt chamberlain.

send a jersey and you might get the diagram for a little thing doof calls "the reverse crooked hanging possum"

get your left ankle in shape....

[Ti Designs]

Art? Science?? How 'bout snake oil sales???

I was shown how to do fittings about 15 years ago by John Allis and Peter Mooney. The short version is this: Fill out all the FitKit forms, then take a step back and put them where they need to be. So, I did what every other fitter probably does and started fitting people based on my understanding of how I fit on a bike. I then made the mistake of riding with one of the people I fit and found that the position I put them in was all wrong. So, I was the typical kid at the bike shop doing fittings.

I wanted to learn what other people know about fitting, so I got fit from lots of people and talked to lots of people who do fittings. I also had my own method which involved hundreds of hours of adjustments based on how I feel on the bike and how I would balance muscle usage. I gave the other fitter's positions a fair try - even tried to keep my bars where Paul had them for 300 miles. At some point I came to the conclusion that you simply can't do a good fitting given a size cycle and a few hours. Simply put, the size cycle or a trainer is a horrible simulation of what really happens when a person rides a bike down the road. The "rules of thumb" are generalizations based on what most people could understand, not any science.

I came to the conclusion that it's not an exact science. There's no set of measurments you can take and apply a formula to come up with the perfect fit. It needs to be a feedback loop. you start out with getting the rider into the ballpark (the fitter's real job), and you explain the dynamics. This muscle group is best levereged from here, so if you're not feeling it your position may need to move there... At some point beyond where the body adapts to the position there needs to be real measurments. That's where wattage meters and heartrate monitors come into play. It's all about the feedback, if you go for one fitting you've gotten yourself into the ballpark. If you give the fitter feedback, you can tweek the position for better performance or comfort (probably both). Thom's right, the rider does become their own fitter because they start to understand the parameters of fitting. I've worked on some of my rider's positions for months. As they're getting the changes to tiny little amounts they bounce their ideas off me, but by then they know what they're doing.



Now I have a question which has come up from this thread. How does being a frame builder make one a better fitter? It's like saying that my plumber knows how to join tubes, so he must be a great bike fitter. One thing they push strongly at Serotta fit school is the difference between the fitter and the designer. The fitter's concern is placing the rider in a position to make power and be comfortable. The designer's concern is the mechanics of the bike itself - head angles and fork rake have nothing to do with how the rider fits on the bike, but the frame designer needs to understand how all these numbers work together. One doesn't imply the other.

[e-RICHIE]

Simply put, the size cycle or a trainer is a horrible simulation of what really happens when a person rides a bike down the road.
i would concur.

I came to the conclusion that it's not an exact science. There's no set of measurments you can take and apply a formula to come up with the perfect fit. It needs to be a feedback loop. <cut>Thom's right, the rider does become their own fitter because they start to understand the parameters of fitting.
again. concur-mania.


Now I have a question which has come up from this thread. How does being a frame builder make one a better fitter?
i missed that post.

[weisan]

Art? Science?? How 'bout snake oil sales???
http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/SnakeOil.gif

[coylifut]

send a jersey and you might get the diagram for a little thing doof calls "the reverse crooked hanging possum"

get your left ankle in shape....

Doof. In general, you really freak me out. Kind of like a blind date with a high strung blonde.

I agree with TI. You get close and then move a few mms here and there. The whole process shouldn't take more than 15 minutes initially. After that, a road side stop with some allen wrenches otta cover it.

I don't think I'll be spending $300 on a lazer guided fit anytime soon.

[Ti Designs]

Doof. In general, you really freak me out. Kind of like a blind date with a high strung blonde.

At least we're still on the subject of things that last about 2 hours and cost $300...


I don't think I'll be spending $300 on a lazer guided fit anytime soon.

Did someone say lazer guided??? Oddly enough, that's one of the aspects of doing a fitting that I'm behind 100%. It's a science, there's a means of measurment, and it's skelital (as much as any joint in the human body can be). It's like doing cleat fittings using the R.A.D. system, it's a simple measuring device to show the fitter which way the foot points. I use the laser line to correct for alignment problems. I have the rider pedal in a small gear, set up the line so it hits the hip, the knee, and the ball of the foot. I then have them shift into a much larger gear and watch where the knee winds up in relation to the line. The hip and foot are fixed points due to the saddle and cranks. If I see the knee track to the inside as the pedal comes across the front I know there's a colapse of the arch under the pressure of that gear. Here's the tricky part, knowing how much to correct for. The body is adaptive, they've been walking around all their lives with the same knees and feet, they have adapted to the condition to some extent. But cycling is a geared sport so the forces are greater. Riding style comes into play, rider weight comes into play, prior injuries come into play...

That's also part of the fitting you can't do by taking a ride with an allen wrench or two.

[Dr. Doofus]

Doof. In general, you really freak me out. Kind of like a blind date with a high strung blonde.


ask Too Tall yeehawfactor, and the jerk, they'll tell ya

doofus, I who am he, is a high-string blonde

but I've great long legs and a chest I can never lose no matter how thin I get, so, you know, there are things that kind of balance out the wack-job psycho part...or at least that's what I thought about the russian chick I met at Adriana's

[loctite]

At least we're still on the subject of things that last about 2 hours and cost $300...




Did someone say lazer guided??? Oddly enough, that's one of the aspects of doing a fitting that I'm behind 100%. It's a science, there's a means of measurment, and it's skelital (as much as any joint in the human body can be). It's like doing cleat fittings using the R.A.D. system, it's a simple measuring device to show the fitter which way the foot points. I use the laser line to correct for alignment problems. I have the rider pedal in a small gear, set up the line so it hits the hip, the knee, and the ball of the foot. I then have them shift into a much larger gear and watch where the knee winds up in relation to the line. The hip and foot are fixed points due to the saddle and cranks. If I see the knee track to the inside as the pedal comes across the front I know there's a colapse of the arch under the pressure of that gear. Here's the tricky part, knowing how much to correct for. The body is adaptive, they've been walking around all their lives with the same knees and feet, they have adapted to the condition to some extent. But cycling is a geared sport so the forces are greater. Riding style comes into play, rider weight comes into play, prior injuries come into play...

That's also part of the fitting you can't do by taking a ride with an allen wrench or two.

FINALY someone who understands....... :crap:

[Dr. Doofus]

or you could ride behind someone and watch for the same thing...you say tomato....

ok, now your doof will write the greatest thing in the history of this board:

how to fit your bike

1) racer boy

a) buy the right damn size

b) set it up in the ballpark

small frames: use a 110-120 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have some post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm. tweak to taste.

medium frames: use a 120-130 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have a good amount of post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm. tweak to taste.

large frames: use a 130-140 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have a lot of post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm. tweak to taste.

if you can't ride comfortably with the doofus setup (which will make your bike look like every dang racer since 1970), you don't need a dang race bike

therefore

sporty boy:

1) buy a sport-touring bike in the right damn size.

2) set your bike up like any one of doug brooks fifty zillion rigs. tweak to taste.


everyboy:

ride with someone who knows their crap. take some allen wrenches. don't be a craphead like the doof and tweak your saddle by a mm every 30 min just because you're a freaking wack job. tweak to taste.

[jerk]

FINALY someone who understands....... :crap:


understands what?

jerk

[rnhood]

Sounds like quite an overkill to me - at least for most riders, without special handicaps or idiosyncracies anyway. At some point the law of diminishing returns sets in. If the bike is sized and equipped appropriately then there should ample adjustment range to dial in a fit for the various intricacies associated with personnal preferences and/or biomechanics. That allen wrench or two will do just fine.

All just my opinion of course. Perhaps the modern bikes with overly tight geo numbers and cockpits have far less room for error than the classic easy rider 10-speeds. In this case maybe it's better to pull out the lasers and floating point computers.

[Fixed]

bro I'm just a bike mess. but it seem like a way for a shop to make a little more money and offer something special that the shop across street doesn't offer plus they can sell a lot stuff ie cranks stems bars post seats peddals bikes, reminds me of the taylor joke anyone know that joke about a taylor being able to fit such a deformed dude?.cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

<cut>...it seem like a way for a shop to make a little more money and offer something special that the shop across street doesn't offer...



fixed-issimo is so effin right.

the entire "fit" gig is rooted in salesmanship. when pal and client billy invented the fitkit, part of it was tied to his math background and being confounded that an equation or "system" didn't exist - but part of it had to do with that shops needed a way to sell bicycles that were in stock. it is a sign of these times that retailers would depend on a yardstick and a formula to determine what a client needs. if you're selling bicycles and cannot tell a person what he needs, or how to attain an efficient position, what are you really selling? one would think that selling the bicycle would be accompanied with some rudimentary first hand knowledge regarding what goes where.

hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

[loctite]

understands what?

jerk

:argue: Understands that fitting is more than taking half a dozen body measurements, building a custom frame that happens to be the same as the last 900 you built, and "eyeballing" the rider’s position. Point, fitting is incredibly precise. The European method of fitting and frame design is ABSURD, and dare I say, PEggoretti and all of his peers design and build frames the way THEY think the rider should be positioned, not necessarily what’s best for the rider. Take a look, design/build standards and practices for these builders have not changed in 60 years or more.

That said...credit where due...Dario and his peers build AMAZINGLY beautiful and superior quality bikes.


Oh boy..this is gonna ruffle some feathers..

[e-RICHIE]

...fitting is incredibly precise.



please elaborate.

[loctite]

fixed-issimo is so effin right.

the entire "fit" gig is rooted in salesmanship. when pal and client billy invented the fitkit, part of it was tied to his math background and being confounded that an equation or "system" didn't exist - but part of it had to do with that shops needed a way to sell bicycles that were in stock. it is a sign of these times that retailers would depend on a yardstick and a formula to determine what a client needs. if you're selling bicycles and cannot tell a person what he needs, or how to attain an efficient position, what are you really selling? one would think that selling the bicycle would be accompanied with some rudimentary first hand knowledge regarding what goes where.

hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

Sooooo true, 90% or the shop rats doing "fits" have no business or clue and should not be selling bikes to begin with... :crap: .but lets not forget the ones who really help and know what they are doing.

[e-RICHIE]

...lets not forget the ones who really help and know what they are doing.



that leaves 10%.

[Dr. Doofus]

if doof sold tickets and pay-per-view to forumites for a full-contact match between these two, would he be able to buy a sachs?




and my money is on e-ritchie...

[loctite]

please elaborate.

Well, the example of the laser work cited above is a good one. There are countless other ways it is precise. The fit must compensate for things like fitness, flexibility, injury, surgery, skeletal differences like leg length differences. Foot profile is a big one (pronation) My point once again is it takes more than "half a dozen body measurements" and a "keen eye" as stated earlier in this thread. A good fit/fitter is a combination of ALL things that have been mentioned, art, since, experience, keen eye, patience, precision, trial and error, coaching advice and a rider that is in tune with his body and its capabilities. Just my 2 cents...

[loctite]

or you could ride behind someone and watch for the same thing...you say tomato....

ok, now your doof will write the greatest thing in the history of this board:

how to fit your bike

1) racer boy

a) buy the right damn size

b) set it up in the ballpark

small frames: use a 110-120 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have some post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm.

medium frames: use a 120-130 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have a good amount of post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm.

large frames: use a 130-140 stem and set your bars so that the hoods are about even with the top tube or just above and the drops are somewhere between the middle of the HT and the HT/DT junction. have a lot of post showing. put the dippy part of the saddle in line with the seat tube, give or take a cm.

if you can't ride comfortably with the doofus setup (which will make your bike look like every dang racer since 1970), you don't need a dang race bike

therefore

sporty boy:

1) buy a sport-touring bike in the right damn size.

2) set your bike up like any one of doug brooks fifty zillion rigs.


everyboy:

ride with someone who knows their crap. take some allen wrenches. don't be a craphead like the doof and tweak your saddle by a mm every 30 min just because you're a freaking wack job

Such fun to read your post's Doof! :D

[Dr. Doofus]

Such fun to read your post's Doof! :D

check out the brilliant edits

[e-RICHIE]

Well, the example of the laser work cited above is a good one. There are countless other ways it is precise. The fit must compensate for things like fitness, flexibility, injury, surgery, skeletal differences like leg length differences. Foot profile is a big one (pronation) My point once again is it takes more than "half a dozen body measurements" and a "keen eye" as stated earlier in this thread. A good fit/fitter is a combination of ALL things that have been mentioned, art, since, experience, keen eye, patience, precision, trial and error, coaching advice and a rider that is in tune with his body and its capabilities. Just my 2 cents...


the half-dozen measurements/keen eye thing is an oversimplification.
if it were easy, everyone would/could be doing it. it takes years of racing, riding, and interpreting to get it all done in a 20 minute chat and look-see. for those not keen on taking the time, there are now classes that teach it. the point here is that the information is fine, but only as effective as the guy with the tapemeasure. if he is just a sponge that soaked up a few chapters, the end result will not jive with what the author had in mind - and the client loses.

[andy mac]

i'm not even a bike messenger so really what do i know...?

there seems to be 3 reasons i can work out for a bike fit.

1) 'the 5200 syndrome'. ie. newbies jumping into the sport. they go into the lbs. a part time employee fresh from the snowboard shop down the road has them stand over a 5200. tells them it's the right size and sends them on their way. (note this is auto biographical...). a decent fit by someone here could have saved thousands and put them on a bike at least in the right zipcode

2) second reason for a fit, the 5200 dude ups the mileage and gets injured. (hello, me again.) goes to a decent bike fitter. they can either tweak the bike or steer them towards the proper fit. welcome my new serotta. be gone trek.

3) the '5200 dude' loses the 5200 part of their name and evolves to 'the dude'. Racing, high speed training etc. tweaks position to make sure power etc is maximized. or, just bored?? (not me, still stuck in (2.)

it seems most on this forum are playing around in (3.

i think a good fit is completely called for and worth the cost in (1 and (2.

if you're a (3, well i'm not, so you know best.

[dirtdigger88]

you the man doof

Jason

hey james how about a stickey up top with the words of doof

[ioerror]

I am curious. Is the school really a school? What I mean is, what is the pass/fail ratio of people that sign up? Are there exams to test knowledge? Do people fail to become a fitter (if they do not have a good grasp of the concepts)
Please tell me it isn't something where "WE ALL ARE FITTERS NOW". Because I think that might help shed some light on this subject.
Thank you in advance.

ioerror (!=fast)

[jerk]

loctite,
look at the jerk's bikes. look at the travesties with 40cm headtubes, zero setback seat posts and top tubes roughly half as long as their seat tubes designed by "fitters" who charged 300bucks and never have turned a pedal in anger and THEN tell the jerk with a straight face that someone who can't spell took a class and owns a lazer and sells smoke in mirrors knows more about proper bicycle design than richard sachs or the jerk*.

italian bicycle frame design hasn't changed in a few decades because it works.

races are won on race bikes, with proper geometry for racing.


*and the jerk doesn't know anything about bicycle design.

jerk

[manet]

I am curious. Is the school really a school? What I mean is, what is the pass/fail ratio of people that sign up? Are there exams to test knowledge? Do people fail to become a fitter (if they do not have a good grasp of the concepts)
Please tell me it isn't something where "WE ALL ARE FITTERS NOW". Because I think that might help shed some light on this subject.
Thank you in advance.

ioerror (!=fast)

one has to fit in. school is tailor made for those with a swagger in their step.

[christian]

Thank you, Doof!

Based on some of the other posts here, you'd think that stems should be sold in 1mm increments. Or that I should lower my seat during the ride to compensate for the compression loss in my socks.

Cheers,
- Christian

[dirtdigger88]

look at the travesties with 40cm headtubes, zero setback seat posts and top tubes roughly half as long as their seat tubes designed by "fitters" who charged 300bucks and never have turned a pedal in anger and THEN tell the jerk with a straight face that someone who can't spell took a class and owns a lazer and sells smoke in mirrors knows more about proper bicycle design than richard sachs or the jerk*.

jerk

I love it when the jerk gets on a roll-

Jason

[ioerror]

one has to fit in. school is tailor made for those with a swagger in their step.
So they eyeball that too huh?

[loctite]

loctite,
look at the jerk's bikes. look at the travesties with 40cm headtubes, zero setback seat posts and top tubes roughly half as long as their seat tubes designed by "fitters" who charged 300bucks and never have turned a pedal in anger and THEN tell the jerk with a straight face that someone who can't spell took a class and owns a lazer and sells smoke in mirrors knows more about proper bicycle design than richard sachs or the jerk*.

italian bicycle frame design hasn't changed in a few decades because it works.

races are won on race bikes, with proper geometry for racing.


*and the jerk doesn't know anything about bicycle design.

jerk

Wow that would be hard to ride. ;) , Sorry you have had a bad experience. Look at my earlier post in this thread, I said 90% of so-called fitters out there are clueless. Never said they know more than anyone who is established, My point is there are a few dedicated, knowledgeable, fitters out there taking a more detailed scientific approach to fitting, and realizing allot of recreational riders cant and don’t want to ride a traditional European "race bike". This philosophy is a big part of Serotta's business model. Straight faced....
FYI, I am NOT a bike fitter, I am in the bike industry and have experienced a bunch of them, and so I am speaking from experience, not blowing smoke.

Sorry for the spelling typos!

[loctite]

one has to fit in. school is tailor made for those with a swagger in their step.

So your a graduate, elaborate please..

[manet]

So your a graduate, elaborate please..

of fit school _ no, but of english as a second language yes.

YOUR a graduate _ YOU'RE a graduate.

alas i jest.

[shinomaster]

you and wilt chamberlain.



I'm dead.......ha ha ha!

[shinomaster]

What size tope tube should I ride? haha ha ha...No really I'm serious.. :rolleyes:

[manet]

one thing is for sure, your @ss needs to go down + back.

[shinomaster]

you mean too high a saddle?

[shaq-d]

you mean too high a saddle?

no..i think he means ur posture. literally, move your *** back. then relax your back a bit, flatten it out a tad. shoulders too. relax.


sd

[Too Tall]

Woah nelly. Shinyman, we've been down this road before non?

E-Twizzler - Sho nuff you know you are right. F.Y.I. Wilt eventually dies of old age...and there is no Magic in that fact (aheem).

Agreed there paltry few good folks with the experience only yrs. of OJT can teach and a glut of principles jumping on the "Professional Fitter" moniker OK? Derr. "Fit Systems" and certifications are not an unreasonable place for them to start. Fit Kit is stupid SUE ME!!! I could name a bunch of others that are worse than useless...however there are at least a few packaged systems that are good tools for folks who take a considered approach and are willing to spend the time learning.

Let's talk about some fit systems that work and are infact available to shops without good graces of fat kermeese riders ;) I'll start:
1. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
*Darnit, I apologize Peter is a person not a system...I'll try harder
2. http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/613.htm
**Shoot!!! I looked at the above reference and it's another dawg gone real live person....really, I can do better...hang tight
3. http://www.vanillabicycles.com/
*** Get this and I quote "I'll size you up..." Sorry for this real person reference, I know I'm supposed to be giving reference for "fit systems"...I'm working much harder now...hang tight
4. http://rexcycles.com/service.html
**** Bwaaa hahaha, this guy charges $65. He could make more money as a butcher. F.Zapp aside I think this is not a "fit system" so just ignore it. Hang tight.
5. http://www.antbikemike.com/ordering.html
***** I thought this guy was a fit system but I'm wrong. He makes bicycles for non-racers mostly...you don't have to "fit" them right? Sorry, I'll try harder.

I give.

[loctite]

Woah nelly. Shinyman, we've been down this road before non?

E-Twizzler - Sho nuff you know you are right. F.Y.I. Wilt eventually dies of old age...and there is no Magic in that fact (aheem).

Agreed there paltry few good folks with the experience only yrs. of OJT can teach and a glut of principles jumping on the "Professional Fitter" moniker OK? Derr. "Fit Systems" and certifications are not an unreasonable place for them to start. Fit Kit is stupid SUE ME!!! I could name a bunch of others that are worse than useless...however there are at least a few packaged systems that are good tools for folks who take a considered approach and are willing to spend the time learning.

Let's talk about some fit systems that work and are infact available to shops without good graces of fat kermeese riders ;) I'll start:
1. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
*Darnit, I apologize Peter is a person not a system...I'll try harder
2. http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/613.htm
**Shoot!!! I looked at the above reference and it's another dawg gone real live person....really, I can do better...hang tight
3. http://www.vanillabicycles.com/
*** Get this and I quote "I'll size you up..." Sorry for this real person reference, I know I'm supposed to be giving reference for "fit systems"...I'm working much harder now...hang tight
4. http://rexcycles.com/service.html
**** Bwaaa hahaha, this guy charges $65. He could make more money as a butcher. F.Zapp aside I think this is not a "fit system" so just ignore it. Hang tight.
5. http://www.antbikemike.com/ordering.html
***** I thought this guy was a fit system but I'm wrong. He makes bicycles for non-racers mostly...you don't have to "fit" them right? Sorry, I'll try harder.

I give.

Lets not forget this guy http://internationalbike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=87 we all know he is the absolute fit Yoda, :rolleyes: what he says is gospel. Dont dare have your own opinion... :rolleyes:

[rpm]

As long as we're talking about the best in both science and art, the 3D cycle fit at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine is the taj mahal of cycle fits:

http://www.bch.org/sportsmedicine/science.cfm#Bike%20Fit

Andy Pruitt knows more about cycle fitting than anyone else in the solar system.

[loctite]

As long as we're talking about the best in both science and art, the 3D cycle fit at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine is the taj mahal of cycle fits:

http://www.bch.org/sportsmedicine/science.cfm#Bike%20Fit

Andy Pruitt knows more about cycle fitting than anyone else in the solar system.

Yes Andy is good at what he does, nice plug. He is on my VERY short list of truly QUALIFIED fitters!

[Fina1]

Speaking of fit, has anyone here tried the wobble naught fit system? I've done it and have been pleased with the results. Seems to be grounded in sound biomechancics and positions the rider for maximum pedaling efficiency.

[Ti Designs]

**stolen from a book about autocross driving**

Let's set a scene. A person is holding a piece of charcoal with a pair of tongs. The charcoal is grey in color. As the holder approaches the various levels of consciousness regarding charcoal, let's see the reaction of the four recipiants!

Question: How would you like a nice piece of charcoal?

Answer from unconscious incompetent: Wow, is it free? I never turn down anything that's free. Sure give it here. (and they get burned)

Answer from the conscious inconpetent: Uhhh, let's see, charcoal - I don't think so. Somebody told me something about charcoal. I don't remember what it was, but I think it had something to do with color. No, I think I'll pass. (they don't know enough about charcoal, but they don't get burned)

Answer from the conscious competent: No thanks. I can see by the color that it's burning. This is confirmed in my mind by the fact that you're holding it with tongs. In addition, I have nothing to carry a piece of hot charcoal in, and even if I did, by the time I got it home it would be burned out.

Answer from the unconscious competent: You must be kidding. What in the world would I do with that?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are fitters who are clueless. They may have a system, they may have taken a class, but they clearly fall into the class of unconscious incompetent. There are those who take a zillion measurments and explain in great detail what everything means and why they would do something. They fall into the class of the conscious competent. Then there are those fitters who seem to take a few measurments but come to the same point as those who have spent much more time. Those are the unconscious competent ones.

I've watched Thom Norton do fittings. He's quick, he doesn't do the whole dog and pony show, he doesn't need to. He can explain why he would move you in one direction or another in great detail, but is that part of the fitting? He is the unconscios competent, with the emphasis on competent. Many of the measurments that lesser fitters need to toil over are noted and factored in, but it never comes up in the process of fitting. It's like the difference between an adult and a child doing addition, the adult's thought process is streamlined.

I am the conscious semi-competent fitter. I take measurments, I explain to the customer what I'm doing and why I'm setting them up the way I am. I also claim that there's no way I can get you into the right position just by wathing you on a trainer - I don't see how ANYBODY could. My value as a fitter is in riding with my customers and hepling them settle into good riding positions over time.

As for fit advice based on a picture, my best advice would be to find a competent fitter...

Let's get back to the question of frame builders for a second. e-richey claims he can fit a person in a very short time. I've put in lots of miles with people he's built frames for, I've given some fitting advice to these people, I would have to agree - he can. Bikes are built with a range of adjustment (saddle position, crank length, stem length, stem height, bar width, bar drop...) so he can probably take 15 minutes and design a frame that puts them in the center of the adjustments to start with and gives them room to fine tune beyond that. I don't doubt that lots of frame builders who have been at it for years are the same way.

That's where the frame builder's job ends and the bike fitter's job begins (in my opinion). I've had so many people tell me "but that's where Peter Mooney put me" (just using Peter as an example), "it's a custom frame, I can't change where I am". They're having knee problems, their quads are burning but their glutes are doing nothing - I would change that position based on feedback from riding. That can't happen from the frame builder. Let's see, how would that work? "Ride the bike, see how everything feels, and then I'll build the frame" - any frame builders around here have a time machine???

And then there are the "systems". I'm going to use Seven cycles as an example here - not to say that they are any better or worse than any other frame builder, just saying that a good fitter would solve a lot of fit issues later. Seven has a fit system where someone faxes in a sheet full of measurments and they come up with the perfect frame. With any luck it's somewhere in the ball park and the fine tuning can be done from there. Back when we were using that system, I would add the extra step of getting the customer back in the shop, setting up the Size Cycle based on Seven's numbers, and see if it was in the ball park. About a third of the time I made changes based on what I saw. Given the cost of one of those frames, I think it was 20 minutes well spent...


An no, there are no Serotta fit school drop-outs. Most shops spend the money on the diploma which hangs on the wall. The elements class teaches a methodology for fitting which should result in a uniform fit regardless of who was doing the fitting. Given their method my guess is that everybody came to within 1cm of their standard in any dimention. It was a tidy fitting package that I don't agree with at all, but just to be fair I spent a week in the position they set me up in. If I ever spent $300 and got a generic "I can teach a monkey how to do this" fitting which worked as poorly, I would be asking for my money back...

[Fixed]

bro you guys are all from the n.e. do you all know each other? cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

That's where the frame builder's job ends and the bike fitter's job begins (in my opinion). <cut>"it's a custom frame, I can't change where I am". They're having knee problems, their quads are burning but their glutes are doing nothing - I would change that position based on feedback from riding. That can't happen from the frame builder. Let's see, how would that work? "Ride the bike, see how everything feels, and then I'll build the frame" - any frame builders around here have a time machine???

these issues that you cite should be part of the
reason that the frame was designed a certain way
in the first place. if they occur after the frame is
built and you (fitter) change things, what is the point?
also - in this hypothetical, why doesn't said builder get
the pertinent info before the frame is built?

[loctite]

Very well said Ti Artist, i couldnt agree more.. You seem to have a good understanding of both arguments..(What shop are you at?)

[Ti Designs]

these issues that you cite should be part of the
reason that the frame was designed a certain way
in the first place. if they occur after the frame is
built and you (fitter) change things, what is the point?
also - in this hypothetical, why doesn't said builder get
the pertinent info before the frame is built?


Bike position over time changes. I have a winter and summer stem, the winter stem is shorter and higher because I'm wearing 5 layers of clothing and putting in 200 miles a week, the summer stem is longer and lower because I'm putting in 400 miles a week and I may run into the Jerk at some point. Was that the concern of the frame builder?

My point was about the tendency to think that the exact position that the frame builder put the rider in is always going to be right. We hope that the frame builder gets the position close and leaves a range of adjustment for the fitter to work with as things change.

As for getting pertinent info before the frame is built, you should know that's not always possible. You have customers who are going to take what you build for them and ride them waaaaay more than they rode what they had before. Over time their positions will change and the fitter's job is to look at them at that time and make corrections to stem and saddle position. I did that for someone just last week, he had a red steel bike with white pannels. The bike still fits fine, the saddle is slightly back and the stem is 1cm longer.

[cpg]

Ti that makes sense in that the fitter is making a bike fit after the fact. In this case you're talking about a rider's position changing with time. That all makes sense but in the earlier posting the "tone" of your message was the fitter steps in shortly after the rider receives the new custom bike to make things "right." I don't think that was your intention but that's how it read, at least to me. But what do I know. I will say that being a framebuilder does not automatically make one a frame fitter. The two are different tasks but they're linked too. Given that link being an experienced fitter AND experienced frame builder has advantages. This is not meant as some sense of posturing. Experience in both disciplines just gives the individual more tools in their tool box.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

Bike position over time changes. I have a winter and summer stem, the winter stem is shorter and higher because I'm wearing 5 layers of clothing and putting in 200 miles a week, the summer stem is longer and lower because I'm putting in 400 miles a week and I may run into the Jerk at some point. Was that the concern of the frame builder?

My point was about the tendency to think that the exact position that the frame builder put the rider in is always going to be right. We hope that the frame builder gets the position close and leaves a range of adjustment for the fitter to work with as things change.

As for getting pertinent info before the frame is built, you should know that's not always possible. You have customers who are going to take what you build for them and ride them waaaaay more than they rode what they had before. Over time their positions will change and the fitter's job is to look at them at that time and make corrections to stem and saddle position. I did that for someone just last week, he had a red steel bike with white pannels. The bike still fits fine, the saddle is slightly back and the stem is 1cm longer.


this is getting too obtuse. a winter position and a summer position?
my road position is not my 'cross position, regardless of the season.
this reminds me of some text* attributible to philippe dufour snipped
from an interview with watchmaker roland murphy wrt to wanting
"everything" in a single timepiece:

"He told the customer that he's from Italy, where they make really fine sports cars. They're beautiful cars, they handle great. But if I came to you and said I want a sports car which was incredibly fast, and had this special engine, and these gull-wing doors and I want 4-wheel drive so I can go off-road, well then it's not going to do as well on the highway any more. Now you've got 4-wheel drive and big tires, but you've lost something else in the process. He said that whenever you do that, there are compromises <cut>"

it's the same with bicycles...



*http://www.rgmwatches.com/interview_RGM.html

[Ti Designs]

That all makes sense but in the earlier posting the "tone" of your message was the fitter steps in shortly after the rider receives the new custom bike to make things "right." I don't think that was your intention but that's how it read, at least to me.

One of these days I'm going to learn how to proof read... I see the fitter's job as a long term goal of getting the rider into a good position. As much as e-richey likes to make building the frame a long term goal, I don't think it's the same. Maybe I should call myself a position tweeker, not a bike fitter.

I can't stand doing generic bike fittings at my shop, for the most part I think it's a waste of time unless there is a specific issue that needs to be worked out, or if they are going to give me feedback which will allows me to fine tune their position. I tell people exactly that, so few of them ever get back to me. I'm spoiled with the riders I coach because I ride with them all the time and I can just ask.

[shinomaster]

Dear E-Richie,

HOw does you Cross set up differ from your road bike?

[e-RICHIE]

One of these days I'm going to learn how to proof read... I see the fitter's job as a long term goal of getting the rider into a good position. As much as e-richey likes to make building the frame a long term goal, I don't think it's the same.<cut>


uh.
if they don't fit, why cut the metal?

[e-RICHIE]

Dear E-Richie,

HOw does you Cross set up differ from your road bike?


uh.
we've been down this road before.
here:
http://www.cycle-smart.com/Articles/find.php?search=31

[shinomaster]

Thanks! Your memory is much better than mine..

[Roy E. Munson]

Doesn't anyone just buy a frame they know is the right size, then tweak their position themselves with stem, seatpost, fore/aft position? I think I trust myself to know when I'm more comfortable and stronger than someone who may or may not have a clue.

[loctite]

uh.
if they don't fit, why cut the metal?

Both good points, custom frames and positions must be tweaked constantly down the road, however if they are that far off, why bother with custom.

Of course as the jerk puts it:

the jerk also has a vxrs. disregard this b.s. about "making sure it fits." you can make nearly any bike "fit"...

So frame design is meaningless. Just ride whatever! :rolleyes:

[Ti Designs]

this is getting too obtuse. a winter position and a summer position? my road position is not my 'cross position, regardless of the season.

Who said anything about a cross position? (I never ride angry) It's the same road bike, but as my mileage increases I gain lower back flexability and my position changes slightly. Are you suggesting I get a different bike for this?

I am amused that you would think I try to add too many functions or features to a bike, or anything else for that matter. I can't stand when added features get in the way of the primary function of anything. I have a digital camera that has a zillion modes and buttons and settings. I have an old SLR that has one feature - the idiot who owns it knows how to use it. I shoot mostly in film again. Consumer electronics just piss me off. I still think my Haffler amp is the perfect piece of audio equipment. it's got two ins, two outs and a switch. If you drop it down the stairs you'll damage the stairs. It has no extended service plan...

As for my bikes, I happen to have a winter training fixed gear which is set up in the same position as my road bike with the shorter stem. I belive very strongly in learning a certain position, and making very small changes from there over time. While I do my share of off road riding on that fixed gear, that's more about rider skill and stupidity than position. I never lose track of the fact that it's training for when I get back on the road bike. My mountain bike is set up based on a very different set of parameters, but that's a mountain bike...

[Dr. Doofus]

ok, to recap

some glorified shop monkey whose legend is set up almost identically to oodf's gunnar is calling out the jerk, who has described himself as resembling a very tall kermesse-loving monkey, and the copyrighted e-ritchie, who likes bananas, and is shorter and perhaps hairier than both lockjaw and the jerk, so a monkey like me probably likes him more in the final analysis.


lazers are a good thing because they tell you what's f-ed up about your joints and maybe you need orthodics or a washed in between your crank arm and your pedal. of course a fat belgian guy could tell you that by watching you pedal before saying goodbye with a leffe fart as he went past you down the next hill.

I will now make mor of a monkey out of myself by stating:

1) the american obsession with fit systems and 300.00 "appointments" stems from american humans' obsession with paying top dollar for services that profess scientific validity. techno-weenie fetish meets commodity fetish, or that's what we say when you idiots throw freaking popcorn at us. we want your daughters and you don't get it.

but I digress.

locring says the european traditions of fit are misguided. only a culture that has a surplus of service industries and a dearth of cycling tradition could produce a guy with a cool looking bike who would say that.

some have mocked the doof fit philosophy.

its pretty freaking simple. get in the ballpark. tweak here and there until nothing hurts and you're using your leg musculature evenly and efficiently. if you can't tell motor use patterns by feel you're a crappy athlete and should switch to dodging rhesus fecus in the doof's hood (more of a workout than you'd think). read the CONI manual. if you're not comfy on race bike after following this free amateurish advice, then you don't need to be on a dang race bike and your 3500.00 monstrosity with the 20cm HT and 55cm ST and the bars 2cm obove the seat is nothing more than a testament to your ego's need to be on a "high tech" toy and your lapse of judgment (just buy a freaking rivendell and get on with it).

and you call yourselves higher primates....

I love you all

[e-RICHIE]

So frame design is meaningless. Just ride whatever!


we've been through this before - i'm gonna get that
"arguing on the internet is like..." link out if this continues.

"fit" is static. jerk is right; to a point, you can get almost
any frame to fit. once the contact points are determined,
it still doesn't guaranty that the bicycle will "work". that
is where the experience comes in. "fitters" may understand
biomechanics. do they understand bicycle design? the two
must overlap. btw, that was a rhetorical question; i don't
have anyone in my crosshairs.

[manet]

there once was a fitter from ridgewood,
that tried to get all the money he could.
he made you custom insoles for pay,
he tweaked your position away.
the one that came from the builder TK.
for weeks you rode waiting for the pain to subside,
but now you're back on the bike and able to ride.
all because you solved the simple conundrum,
put it back to the numbers from spectrum.

[shinomaster]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doofus]ok, to recap

some glorified shop monkey whose legend is set up almost identically to oodf's gunnar is calling out the jerk, who has described himself as resembling a very tall kermesse-loving monkey, and the copyrighted e-ritchie, who likes bananas, and is shorter and perhaps hairier than both lockjaw and the jerk, so a monkey like me probably likes him more in the final analysis.


lazers are a good thing because they tell you what's f-ed up about your joints and maybe you need orthodics or a washed in between your crank arm and your pedal. of course a fat belgian guy could tell you that by watching you pedal before saying goodbye with a leffe fart as he went past you down the next hill.

I will now make mor of a monkey out of myself by stating:

1) the american obsession with fit systems and 300.00 "appointments" stems from american humans' obsession with paying top dollar for services that profess scientific validity. techno-weenie fetish meets commodity fetish, or that's what we say when you idiots throw freaking popcorn at us. we want your daughters and you don't get it.

but I digress.

locring says the european traditions of fit are misguided. only a culture that has a surplus of service industries and a dearth of cycling tradition could produce a guy with a cool looking bike who would say that.

some have mocked the doof fit philosophy.

its pretty freaking simple. get in the ballpark. tweak here and there until nothing hurts and you're using your leg musculature evenly and efficiently. if you can't tell motor use patterns by feel you're a crappy athlete and should switch to dodging rhesus fecus in the doof's hood (more of a workout than you'd think). read the CONI manual. if you're not comfy on race bike after following this free amateurish advice, then you don't need to be on a dang race bike and your 3500.00 monstrosity with the 20cm HT and 55cm ST and the bars 2cm obove the seat is nothing more than a testament to your ego's need to be on a "high tech" toy and your lapse of judgment (just buy a freaking rivendell and get on with it).

and you call yourselves higher primates....

Doof.

I thought my cannnondale fit me well...But then I was told by the Serotta fit "architect" that I need a waaaaay longer bike....Sometimes it is hard to figure it out by yourself sometimes.

[e-RICHIE]

I belive very strongly in learning a certain position, and making very small changes from there over time.



are any of these changes more than a few millemeters?

[Ti Designs]

uh.
if they don't fit, why cut the metal?

Doesn't anyone just buy a frame they know is the right size, then tweak their position themselves with stem, seatpost, fore/aft position?

It's pretty simple, some folks fit on stock geometry bikes, some don't. There's a reasonable range to adjustments, if you're outside that range you're looking for custom. If you fit well on a stock geometry, the only advantage to custom is that it makes your wallet lighter.

My own example: I rode lots of stock geometry bikes before I bought my first custom. I had tweeked my position on the bikes, but being just outside of the range of adjustments on all of my bikes was a little hint that it was time for a custom frame. I brought my last two stock bikes to Peter Mooney, explained that I want a frame that put my position in the center of the adjustments, and we designed the frame from there. It's a little weird, the top tube sloped down to the front - I had modified my stems and headsets to get my position lower on my old bikes. When I got the frame I used a 120 stem, put the saddle in the center of the rails, and everything worked! Last year I found myself without a road bike when my Seven broke, so I built up my old Peter Mooney again. What I found out was that there's a difference in position between being 24 and being 40. As I said, things change with time. When I was looking for a replacement frame I tried out a number of stock getometry bikes, thinking that the higher bar position might put me back into the stock bike catagory. Head tubes have gotten taller in the last 16 years...

[Ti Designs]

are any of these changes more than a few millemeters?

Stems come in increments of 1cm, but in saddle position changes 5mm is as large as they get.

[e-RICHIE]

If you fit well on a stock geometry, the only advantage to custom is that it makes your wallet lighter.



can we just puncuate this moment?
just because something is "custom" does not mean it is made
with some set of unusual specs that don't exist within the
mainstream. "custom" is not always/only about fit. as with
anything, fit should be part of the equation. "custom", a
word with infinite connotations, is about intangibles not
often available from production-made items.

[e-RICHIE]

Stems come in increments of 1cm, but in saddle position changes 5mm is as large as they get.


so you can concede if you "need" something between
stem sizes wrt to "reach" distances. no bigee.
5mm changes in saddle height between summer and
winter is hardly an issue; the basic position remains.

[Fixed]

bro it's student and master you trust the master you don't question him ,he's the master and we should respect him, we might not understand but that is why he is the master. i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[davids]

can we just puncuate this moment?
just because something is "custom" does not mean it is made
with some set of unusual specs that don't exist within the
mainstream. "custom" is not always/only about fit. as with
anything, fit should be part of the equation. "custom", a
word with infinite connotations, is about intangibles not
often available from production-made items.
Yeah!

As I think about where my next bike purchase is heading, it's easy for me to imagine that a Fierte might fit me perfectly, and handle like a dream. But those freakin' chevron decals might still push me to spend significantly more bucks on a La Corsa...

But I guess we're not talking about fit any more.

[jerk]

Both good points, custom frames and positions must be tweaked constantly down the road, however if they are that far off, why bother with custom.

Of course as the jerk puts it:



So frame design is meaningless. Just ride whatever! :rolleyes:

did you understand anything the jerk said? that is just about as far from the jerk's point as anything anyone has ever said.

with few exceptions almost anything can fit, but given those fit points will the thing handle properly? this is what is important. and yes there are certain "fits" that can't translate into proper racing bicycles.

jerk

[bluesea]

dwith few exceptions almost anything can fit, but given those fit points will the thing handle properly? this is what is important. and yes there are certain "fits" that can't translate into proper racing bicycles.

jerk

Fit and handling. So the rider is adjusted properly in terms of saddle height and setback etc. A 14cm stem, combined with a given handlebar drop, has been selected to provide the needed reach for a racing posture. The back is flat in the drops with about an inch of elbow clearance and elbows unlocked.

What next? Front/rear weight distribution? If so, what are the figures to shoot for?

[Johny]

It is clear that a school bus can fit all of us, but is not suitable for racing (of course, Nascar would use them).

P.S. Dave Moulton's "Article on Frame Design" (http://www.prodigalchild.net/CyclingArticle77.pdf) is another great read (and his website http://www.prodigalchild.net/Bicycle9.htm).

[Ti Designs]

so you can concede if you "need" something between
stem sizes wrt to "reach" distances. no bigee.
5mm changes in saddle height between summer and
winter is hardly an issue; the basic position remains.

My point in the first place - also the point that the Jerk is making, if I read Jerkeese correctly. There is a limit to adjustability. I'm happy with a 110 or 120mm stem, by arm length doesn't justify a 140, and putting a 90mm stem on that bike would throw off where my weight needs to be. My saddle position has moved maybe 5mm in any direction. The bottom line is that the frame design is right, the fitting just adjusts the position over time. I have no doubt that you can build a frame based on a 20 minute fitting session that gets there. You can't build a frame that tweeks the rider's position down to the mm, nor should you try - that's why they make different stems and seats have rails. What I doubt most from this whole thread is the ability for a bike fitter to nail down an exact position by watching a rider on a trainer.

As for custom being more than just geometry numbers, this is a thread about fit. Custom lug work adds nothing to the fit, but lots to the value of the bike. I take back my statement about custom just making your wallet lighter.

[Johny]

Custom lug work adds nothing to the fit, but lots to the value of the bike.

So do most fitters...Oh, actually, they reduce the value of the bikes if done improperly.

[e-RICHIE]

The bottom line is that the frame design is right, the fitting just adjusts the position over time.
much of that adjustment occurs before the bottom line
is signed. the decisions that affect stem choices, reach,
saddle placement, etcetera are made before the metal
is cut, not after the bicycle is assembled and "test ridden".

I have no doubt that you can build a frame based on a 20 minute fitting session that gets there. You can't build a frame that tweeks the rider's position down to the mm, nor should you try - that's why they make different stems and seats have rails.
the above still applies.

What I doubt most from this whole thread is the ability for a bike fitter to nail down an exact position by watching a rider on a trainer.
then what does a fitter do to fit a client?

Custom lug work adds nothing to the fit, but lots to the value of the bike.
i never saw this as a "lug" issue.

[Tom]

It is clear that a school bus can fit all of us, but is not suitable for racing (of course, Nascar would use them).



I work with a guy who says when he was 14 he and a couple pals broke into the Fonda speedway, started the school buses they stored there and raced them around and around the track until they could see the cops outside the gate. They brilliantly tried to escape by going out on NY Rte 5 and hitch hiking.

They didn't get far on foot.

[jerk]

Fit and handling. So the rider is adjusted properly in terms of saddle height and setback etc. A 14cm stem, combined with a given handlebar drop, has been selected to provide the needed reach for a racing posture. The back is flat in the drops with about an inch of elbow clearance and elbows unlocked.

What next? Front/rear weight distribution? If so, what are the figures to shoot for?


this has been discussed ad nauseam. search the archives. let's talk about something else a now. the old campy pointy hoods were so much more awesome than the new round ones for example.

jerk

[bluesea]

Yeah but the newer dual pivots are so much more sleeker. I did search, but nothing definitive. [nevermind]

[Dr. Doofus]

the jerk is right again

my monkey butt misses the selle italia turbo

[Ti Designs]

much of that adjustment occurs before the bottom line
is signed. the decisions that affect stem choices, reach,
saddle placement, etcetera are made before the metal
is cut, not after the bicycle is assembled and "test ridden".

But over time ajustments will probably be made. The Serotta spreadsheet uses stem lengths, and angles to hit target points within their design of the frame as well. My bike was designed on such a spreadsheet, yet I still have better lower back flexability in the summer. A wise frame builder will use numbers they think are in the center of that reasonable range...


then what does a fitter do to fit a client?

I ask myself that every time I'm asked to do a bike fitting. In many cases, it's easy for the fitter to have value. That's because most people riding around have horrible positions. In that case, the fitter's job is to get them into the ball park. Maybe they get feedback and tweek the position more, maybe they don't. The initial gain has been made. I have a problem when I show up downstairs for the fitting and there's a guy with a brand new Sachs. I can put them up on the stand, take a look at them on the bike, then call you to come on down and give the guy a dope slap... It's not until I get real feedback that I can do any good. If they tell me their knee hurts or they feel like they're sliding back on the saddle, we have something to look at. If they say "these muscles don't seem to be working hard", and "here are my power output numbers for the past two weeks", we can come up with a plan. If it's simply "Hi, I'm here, fit me on my bike", it's time to sell some snake oil.

It's certainly not what I would want to be doing. The shop sells fitting services as magic, you're ride longer, faster, more comfortable, you'll be better looking and people will like you more... It's mostly BS. I spend my own time coaching riders. There is value there (at least I'd like to think so). Sometimes coaching involves putting a rider on a trainer and evaluating how they pedal, so there is an element of fitting, but there's also a large component of feedback which is missing from most fits.

[ioerror]

Does a increase in a spinscan number(better pedal stroke) and increase in power at a lower heart rate qualify as data that is measurable?
I know some use the computraner, or is that snake oil too?

[e-RICHIE]

The shop sells fitting services as magic, you're ride longer, faster, more comfortable, you'll be better looking and people will like you more... It's mostly BS.


not BS.
salesmanship.
billy was right.

[Ti Designs]

Does a increase in a spinscan number(better pedal stroke) and increase in power at a lower heart rate qualify as data that is measurable?
I know some use the computraner, or is that snake oil too?


Use of a good tool in the wrong way. I ask for power output over a couple of weeks before I'll make the next change. First, the body adapts to change (I've got $8.79 in loose change in my right rear pocket, yet I don't fall over). Looking for results from changes made right away is a mistake and will more often lead to larger changes and future injuries. My goal for changes is always "half the distance", and see how the body adapts to the position. It may take 6 weeks and 3 adjustments before the position settles to where it's going to stay, but it could be 6 weeks off the bike with tendonitis, which is far worse.

[Andreu]

then what does a fitter do to fit a client?

to start with
get correct:

1. reach (to bars)
2. saddle height
3. set back


that's pretty scientific if you ask me.
A

[ioerror]

Use of a good tool in the wrong way. I ask for power output over a couple of weeks before I'll make the next change. First, the body adapts to change (I've got $8.79 in loose change in my right rear pocket, yet I don't fall over). Looking for results from changes made right away is a mistake and will more often lead to larger changes and future injuries. My goal for changes is always "half the distance", and see how the body adapts to the position. It may take 6 weeks and 3 adjustments before the position settles to where it's going to stay, but it could be 6 weeks off the bike with tendonitis, which is far worse.Ok, but you are crying snake oil and "eyeballing"(my words not yours) I just wanted to know, with a tool that can measure heart rate, power output and pedal efficiently; that seems like a good way to guage a fit. You said you can't do a proper fit on a windtrainer, ok, I can simulate a 15% hill on a computrainer, granted the bike can't “move” free, but I think we both agree that a fit needs to happen over time.
I am trying to introduce something, like the laser you seemed to be in favor of, that is much more than an eyeball. Let the rider ride for an hour, I don't care. The load will change and you will get to see a “limited” dynamic position. (Granted not a true road simulation but damn close)

[ioerror]

Not to mention. you can "TELL" a client all you want how to pedal "circles" but a computrainer can allow a client to "feel" what it feels like, giving them a muscle memory of how the pedal stroke should go. i would say that is worth more than a fitter moving some stuff, looking knowingly, stroking his/her chin; sprinkling fairy dust and declaring the client fit.
Just my opinion

[Tom Kellogg]

Folks:

In answer to the original question:

Yes.

[loctite]

Does a increase in a spinscan number(better pedal stroke) and increase in power at a lower heart rate qualify as data that is measurable?
I know some use the computraner, or is that snake oil too?

No its not snake oil, these are tools used to measure efficency.

[Sandy]

Folks:

In answer to the original question:

Yes.

I think that I actually made a statement that makes some sense relative to science and art:

Communication + Science + Experience + Insight + Foresight = Artful Fit

I think that the reason that you are so successful in fitting cyclists is that in reality, you blend all of the above into one final product. It is the synthesis of the above.


Synthesis Sandy

[andy mac]

Back to the original post and riding pain free…

seems lots of talk about the bike side of the equation (as you would expect being on a bike forum) but not much on the body side. every person is a custom. each has it's own obvious and less obvious idiosyncrasies. Some you are born with, some develop over time.

In some cases, myself for instance, a fitter can’t solve your problems moving stuff around.

Some well respected guys worked with me both eye balling and to get the red laser beam straight etc. They got my leg tracking ok and I was on my way. Problem was then everything else was then out of whack. It just caused more problems in other areas along the chain.

I won’t bore you with the details but I found out I had a hip out of place, a weak left hamstring and abductor (my problem leg) weak obliques, and, pathetic hip movement. That was kind of a surprise to me as I was a rather unsuccessful yet professional athlete a few years back and always thought I was in OK shape. I doubt many fitters could ID all these physical problems.

The fitters work with the body you have, kinks and all. Might be time to see if you have the body you need.

[Ginger]

Andy, I agree.
Finding a fitter who can identify the weaknesses that are causing some issues is rare. Fitters are looking at where is most efficient to put that body on the bike, not why that body might be having issues with the bike.

My PTs always strengthened from the core out: Core-hips *then* legs, knees then ankles. Core-shoulder-elbow-wrist. But figuring out weaknesses and how they affect the joint is in part, a PT's job. They study long and hard to figure it out.

[Climb01742]

I won’t bore you with the details but I found out I had a hip out of place, a weak left hamstring and abductor (my problem leg) weak obliques, and, pathetic hip movement. That was kind of a surprise to me as I was a rather unsuccessful yet professional athlete a few years back and always thought I was in OK shape. I doubt many fitters could ID all these physical problems.

i may be in the same boat you are. beating up my body as an athlete for a very long time has left my body a bit out of whack, particularly in the right hip, glute, lower back nexus. a proper fit can get me so far. working on my body is the other half of the equation. if i may ask, what are you doing to address your body issues? good luck.

[e-RICHIE]

i may be in the same boat you are. beating up my body as an athlete for a very long time has left my body a bit out of whack, particularly in the right hip, glute, lower back nexus.


wilt chamberlain suffered from these exact symptoms.
overuse.

[andy mac]

i may be in the same boat you are. beating up my body as an athlete for a very long time has left my body a bit out of whack, particularly in the right hip, glute, lower back nexus. a proper fit can get me so far. working on my body is the other half of the equation. if i may ask, what are you doing to address your body issues? good luck.

heya climb i'll pm you. i just wrote something longer than north and south in reply.

general advice, it's as hard to find a good cycling PT or personal trainer as it to find a great fitter. ask pros, top fitters or robyn williams who they'd recommend.

when in doubt - yoga. cross train. stretch. beer. massage. repeat.

get your body right then go for a fit if still needed.

[Brian Smith]

My body is somewhat "jacked up" at the moment, (moment meaning only the last 7 years or so :rolleyes: ) and I have decided that no matter what my bike looks like on paper, or realized in 3D, or even with me on it, a "good fit" for me is one that gets as much "performance" out of me the way I am right now without unduly causing me to hurt. Since I am not time trialling at the penultimate level, I'm able to trust my own impressions about performance. Data concerning my drag and power output in various conditions is both not available to me nor needed. Custom frames can be less expensive than surgery, physical therapy, chiropractors, massage, personalized physical instruction. Frames don't replace all of that other stuff, but can be easier to take personal charge for than the former items. Ultimately, we can gain consultancy for our fittings, but we fit ourselves either via our trust in someone else's opinion about us, or by our own selections. Is the question not really about whether the fitting/designing of a frame to a rider firmly scientific and sorted, and is the question actually can we trust our own experiences above another's opinions? I say that a customer will ultimately be happier if they ignore others' opinions if they trust their own more than anyone else's (including their fitters,) but if a doubtful customer has good experiences on a bike after trusting a fitter's experience, the reputation of that fitter is enhanced, giving other customers more trust in that fitter.

[MallyG]

Ah.... but is Advertising an Art or a Science? Now there's a question...

[Andreu]

is neither - it's postmodernist tosh.
A

[Too Tall]

One things is consistent, caring people with alot of experience working hard to make and fit bicycles for clients...it's a PEOPLE business.

IOERROR - Yes, the CT can be used to estimate what effect changes to a bike setup have...it ain't perfect but is an indication. I've found that this is a very good way to work out initial setups of new aerobars, different pedals etc. etc. Spinscan teaches folks how to make the machine paint a nice picture!!! Honest, I can not find value in it for est. how adjustments to the bike are working out....you basically are a trained monkey...it's a biofeedback thing. Even with a terrible fit I can make the spinscan "look nice".

[Dr. Doofus]

you basically are a trained monkey...

how dare you denigrate those proud ancestors from whence you, tall hairy one, came? is this higher-primate self-loathing? love that developed cortex but hate the fact that you can't frolic naked and do it in public like us?

and who said you could use that avatar?

yeah

and spin scan is a neat toy but the only real tool to change pedal mechanics would be one that measures force along the pedal stroke under real-world conditions, not on a trainer where one is just a lab rat.

(damn rodents)

[Too Tall]

Food, Loola the native girl said I could use the moniker. Anywho, it was sort of a runover / send up of high holy days....Judgement, Recognition, Repenting. Heck, I'm more ape than you'll EVER be. If you think I ought to swap it for Lurch I'm ready, be my guding light.

A quote from my bed stand book:

Cruelty and compassion come with chromosomes;
All men are merciful and all are murderers.
Doting on dogs, they build their Dachaus;
Fire whole cities and fondle the Ottrots;
Are loud against lynching, but all for Oakridge;
Full of future philanthropy, but today the NKVD.
Whom shall we persecute, for whom feel pity ?
It is all a matter of the moment's mores,
Of words on wood pulp, of radios roaring,
Of Communist kindergartens or first communions.
Only in the knowledge of his own Essence
Has any man ceased to be many monkeys. (Mostly Huxley)

[andy mac]

ok, sorry to add to this thread but i just thought of a few more things.


1. if you have never had your body tested for imbalances i would highly recommend it. we recalibrate our 401k's, car engines etc, why not the most amazing tool you own, your body.

2. it may be too late for us here but if you have kids consider putting them in gymnastics classes at an early age. an old ski coach of mine (who coached the swiss olympic downhill team) said it's a huge advantage european kids have over the rest of the world. from an early age they develop core strength, balance and coordination. it's a great platform to jump into any sport later in life.

if you grow up playing baseball, basketball, tennis, golf etc, even cycling, you never get to develop a well rounded body.

ok, time to stop typing and stretch my beaten up, out of balance self.

[William]

All this talk about fit motivated me to dig up a blast from the past. Does it still ring true? Probably!:)





William

[Likes2ridefar]

I've had both science and other pro fits by "experienced guys" or artists to fit this thread title, and most recently just do it myself fits for the most part. I won't call myself an artist:fight:

Besides flexibility my body has not changed any since I had the science fit(wobblenaught), and that fit calculation or analysis, or whatever you want to call it, is nowhere near what I prefer to race on. I can be comfortable on it, but it has me on a larger frame with a shorter stem and less setback at the post.

it also has my saddle higher than I prefer.

I'm most satisified with my go by feel fits that I do myself through trial and error.

that's my story and i'm stickin' to it.

[tannhauser]

Wow. I remember reading this when it was, like, fresh.

Some of you who knew Clay M. will know he died on a ride. Chilling to read his words here. RIP.

[Viper]

Wow. I remember reading this when it was, like, fresh.

Some of you who knew Clay M. will know he died on a ride. Chilling to read his words here. RIP.

Wow, I was gone for a while, I did not know. That just sucks. So sad to hear.

"Great thread, everybody.

There's a lot of appreciation out there for positive results (naturally) and a lot of honest appreciation and respect for the practice of fitting and its practitioners, too.

The volleys about the time a fitting can/should take are telling. Time becomes a prominent piece of evidence to explain either remarkable skill or the cause of a failure to achieve desired results. The constant is the result, not the time. Ultimately, I suppose it doesn't matter how long it takes as long as the results are positive. But I am certain many retail clients would be skeptical of the value of a costly fitting that doesn't occupy a significant chunk of time even when the results are positive.

In our store, fitting is the most acutely satisfying part of our work. It's like pulling thorns out of lions' paws all day long. Collectively (we have four Serotta trained fitters), we do from 60 to over 100 fits every month. The combination of frequency, experience and a collective knowledge base generates lots of positive results. And we are still learning.

For me, it's both art and science but I'd say the art is mostly in the communication effort while the science is in the biomechanical understanding.

ClayM"

Amen.

[tannhauser]

Wow, I was gone for a while, I did not know. That just sucks. So sad to hear.


He went like we all wish we'd go - out for a ride 40 miles south of SF starting a little tour, then keeled over. His shop hasn't been the same, naturally - he was a tiny force of nature.

[MadRocketSci]

He went like we all wish we'd go - out for a ride 40 miles south of SF starting a little tour, then keeled over. His shop hasn't been the same, naturally - he was a tiny force of nature.

City Cycles was bought by Paradigm Cycles. Looks like they kept the name. Some of the key staff went to Bespoke.

[tannhauser]

City Cycles was bought by Paradigm Cycles. Looks like they kept the name. Some of the key staff went to Bespoke.

Didn't know about the sale. Ari & Stefan. Craig left the biz.

[Bikingbob]

I wonder if as you age and add more miles to your body if you don't become accustomed to all the mistakes you have made in setting up a frame to be ridden in a variety of circumstances.

[tannhauser]

I wonder if as you age and add more miles to your body if you don't become accustomed to all the mistakes you have made in setting up a frame to be ridden in a variety of circumstances.

The body has amazing compensatory abilities. The brain too.

[Wilkinson4]

I wonder if as you age and add more miles to your body if you don't become accustomed to all the mistakes you have made in setting up a frame to be ridden in a variety of circumstances.

Interesting. But are you at your most efficient in that setup? In Randonneur circles, comfort is speed. I joined after this thread and I want to read all the posts. Over the last couple of years, I have become increasingly uncomfortable on the bike and it is really starting to affect how long I can ride.

Upper trap and neck pain is just killing me. I also have upper trap discomfort off the bike and trigger points that cause headaches. Today, while in a meeting I could feel my shoulders inching up toward my ears and then the pain. Then I realized I have been doing that on the bike. I have really gotten lazy with my form on the bike and I am not engaging my core to support myself. Instead, I am basically pushing on the bars and my shoulders inch up toward my ears. After an hour I am in agony.

Went for a ride tonight and really made the effort to concentrate on my upper body form and it was much better. So, core work and planks for me and an effort to maintain good cycling posture. I hope it will help.

mIKE