This is one way drivers take out cyclists...

[Louis]

St Louis Post Dispatch Story (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/bill-mcclellan/property-owner-isn-t-buying-david-freese-s-deer-story/article_e85ee795-9a32-56eb-a92a-feea48e3fc21.html)

My riding buddy Dave is the cyclist mentioned in the story. Had he been just a few seconds faster in his route the SUV would have gone right by him (going S as my buddy was going N)

Edit: As it is, he got to see the SUV careening across the field right in front of him and come to rest yards from where he was. (Car resting place is at the X)
Dave was on Rieger Rd, at the intersection at the bottom right of the pic below, about to turn right onto Wildhorse. The car followed the blue line instead of following the road.

The accident happened about 2 miles from the entrance to my subdivision, and it's pretty clear that Freese was driving way too fast, whether there was a deer there or not. My buddy was the first person to get to the car and Freese didn't say anything about a deer. Draw your own conclusions.

[Aaron O]

I can't begin to imagine how a sober person does this:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Misc/DB30CDA7-3327-434A-8312-C13C2B53EB1A-657-000000983B1C24FC.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Misc/34E14F93-73EC-48D6-81CC-CCCDB4223CF2-657-000000984B732C51.jpg

This happened three doors down from me in the afternoon. One neighbor saw the guy take a turn (about half of a block from where the car ended up) far too quickly, but how fast do you have to go to flip a sedan??? Keep on mind these are 25mph city streets.

It's a miracle that he didn't hurt anyone (other than himself). They're out there...and when they strike, there's nothing you can do but hope you aren't there.

[Rueda Tropical]

A kid got decapitated by a BMW on the same block as my daughters elementary school where he was a student in Miami. This is a residential side street with a school on it. He was walking to school on the sidewalk when the driver lost control of her car and went airborne. How someone could be driving fast enough to do that on a residential school street with a lot of morning traffic is beyond me.

[ultraman6970]

Like 10 years ago I was living in falls church, the area has a lot of hills. But you cant go over 35 and 25 in some places. Well... this kid and g/f were going so fast that the car went airborne and hit a big add concrete wall and then a concrete electrical pole. Cops think he was doing street racing because the other guy used a public phone to call 911, nobody knew who was the other guy. The kid died and the g/f went coma for weeks no idea if she survived.

The funiest thing of all of this is that the kid was like 18 y/o and had his license suspended 3 times already. Parents did not know... wonder how you can't know things like that...

[BumbleBeeDave]

So what would have happened if he had gotten back to the road without hitting the tree? Just kept on going?

BBD

St Louis Post Dispatch Story (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/bill-mcclellan/property-owner-isn-t-buying-david-freese-s-deer-story/article_e85ee795-9a32-56eb-a92a-feea48e3fc21.html)

My riding buddy Dave is the cyclist mentioned in the story. Had he been just a few seconds faster in his route the SUV would have gone right by him (going S as my buddy was going N)

Edit: As it is, he got to see the SUV careening across the field right in front of him and come to rest yards from where he was. (Car resting place is at the X)
Dave was on Rieger Rd, at the intersection at the bottom right of the pic below, about to turn right onto Wildhorse. The car followed the blue line instead of following the road.

The accident happened about 2 miles from the entrance to my subdivision, and it's pretty clear that Freese was driving way too fast, whether there was a deer there or not. My buddy was the first person to get to the car and Freese didn't say anything about a deer. Draw your own conclusions.

[christian]

how fast do you have to go to flip a sedan??? Keep on mind these are 25mph city streets.Not that fast actually, but you have to be a bad driver and encounter a particular set of circumstances: Typically, this is caused by excessive speed, and an early apex, usually because the person saw someone coming in the opposing lane. What happens is they bang the right front wheel on the curb corner when the left suspension is already loaded and the wheels are turned into the corner. This will usually force the wheel hard right, and sometimes jam the right front into the wheelwell, stopping the wheel.

The inertia and dynamics will flip the car easily.

Travis's and my accident at Colorado 2005 (youtube) shows what happens when you do this at 60 mph. We had a similar shunt at 100AW one year, and the rock we hit wasn't bigger than a person's head.

In fact, in rally cars, this is probably the biggest cause of rollovers - prior car pulls a rock jnto the line, you can't adjust the line because you're going 10/10ths, so you hit it and hope the suspension does the job.

Of course, how ****ty of a driver do you have to be to speed in a residential neighborhood, and apex early enough to hit the curb? Really very ****ty...

[zap]

I can't begin to imagine how a sober person does this:



aaron, couldn't pass it up could you.........

[bobswire]

http://i48.tinypic.com/2h7mlfl.jpg

[Aaron O]

Not that fast actually, but you have to be a bad driver and encounter a particular set of circumstances: Typically, this is caused by excessive speed, and an early apex, usually because the person saw someone coming in the opposing lane. What happens is they bang the right front wheel on the curb corner when the left suspension is already loaded and the wheels are turned into the corner. This will usually force the wheel hard right, and sometimes jam the right front into the wheelwell, stopping the wheel.

The inertia and dynamics will flip the car easily.

Travis's and my accident at Colorado 2005 (youtube) shows what happens when you do this at 60 mph. We had a similar shunt at 100AW one year, and the rock we hit wasn't bigger than a person's head.

In fact, in rally cars, this is probably the biggest cause of rollovers - prior car pulls a rock jnto the line, you can't adjust the line because you're going 10/10ths, so you hit it and hope the suspension does the job.

Of course, how ****ty of a driver do you have to be to speed in a residential neighborhood, and apex early enough to hit the curb? Really very ****ty...

Admittedly I'm an idiot with spatial awareness problems and limited driving experience, but I think I understood 2 in 3 words of this post and certainly not the totality of it. What I took away is that you can flip a car if you are going just a little too fast and hit the wrong thing at the wrong angle. I'm curious what speed that starts to happen at, because these are residential streets; if you're going over 35, there's a serious problem.

[christian]

Going around a standard curbed right-hand corner in a city, I think you could roll a car 7 out of 10 times by going 35 and hitting the curb at the exact right spot.

Regardless, it requires a genuine combination of fundamental stupidity, poor driving skills, exceptionally poor judgement, and a bit of bad luck. My other point was just that the physics of it aren't that remote - in other words, if you combine those conditions, a car can well end up on its roof.

[Aaron O]

Thanks for the clarification Christian...I'm just glad none of the area kids were out and about.

[cachagua]

I have a feature that could be added to all cars, even retrofitted to existing ones, that would very nearly eliminate accidents. Wouldn't be quite 100%, but so close that... that insurance would be free.

Here it is -- you ready? Duct-tape the driver to the front bumper.

(After al, that's essentially the position we're in on our bikes!)

[csm]

My pet peeve around here is people driving faster than the posted speed limit of 25 mph. we live near an elementary school and middle school and kids walk in the mornings. I actually had a neighbor come around and tell me mind my own business when I motioned with my hands to slow down. she had to drive around the block and finish her phone call first.
without delving into a political discussion... did anyone else notice the Romney sticker on the bumper of the car?

[AngryScientist]

Going around a standard curbed right-hand corner in a city, I think you could roll a car 7 out of 10 times by going 35 and hitting the curb at the exact right spot.

Regardless, it requires a genuine combination of fundamental stupidity, poor driving skills, exceptionally poor judgement, and a bit of bad luck. My other point was just that the physics of it aren't that remote - in other words, if you combine those conditions, a car can well end up on its roof.

i have to agree with everything christian says, and will add that particular car, you really do have to be a pretty awful driver to actually roll it, i mean - it has to be one of the heaviest sedans of it's size, it's AWD and probably has a pretty sophisticated traction control system. obviously those systems can only do so much though - as evidenced by the picture.

yikes.

[Grant McLean]

I read lots of anecdotes about the perils of being on the road,
makes one wonder if you should ever leave the house.

Since i'm writing my term research paper for my cycling for transportation
policy course for my Masters in Urban Planning this weekend
(Yikes the end of the term is quickly approaching!)
I thought it would be interesting to contrast the 'sky is falling' impression
that personal stories convey with some statistical context from my region,
Ontario, Canada, and the USA.

Cycling fatalities fell 70% between 1988 and 2010.
On a list of 27 recreational sports ranked by risk, cycling is #27,
with a catastrophic injury rate of 2.4 injuries per 100,000 participants.
Compared to 511 for diving, 88 for snowmobling, 40 for toboggoning
12 for horseback riding, 8 for skateboarding, football, and hockey.

In the USA, about 21 cyclists die for every 100 million trips.
That's more than car occupants, which is 12. But it's nowhere near
motorcyclists, which is 551.

The interesting thing is the difference in risk between men and women
according to travel mode. Fatality rate for walking, driving, and cycling is
about 7 deaths for every 100 million trips if you're a woman.
If you're a man, your risk of death is 2 to 4 times higher.

The leading cause of death for adults between 20 - 34 years old is being a
driver or passenger in a car, (20% of total deaths)
Cycling accounts for 0.43% of deaths in the same age bracket.

-g

[thwart]

Thanks for those statistics about cycling on the road.

That is indeed very reassuring.

... but I'm still going to ride the rollers today.

'Cause it's cold, gray and raining. And I might melt if I get wet.

[christian]

Grant, i'd be interested to read your paper when finished. Do you have normalized statistics per km driven/ridden? Car trips' distances on average likely exceed bike trips' distances?

Fwiw, regarding motorcycling, it's undoubtedly dangerous, but if you section off riders who were impaired, and riders under 25, it suddenly looks like a (more) reasonable activity.

[Grant McLean]

Grant, i'd be interested to read your paper when finished. Do you have normalized statistics per km driven/ridden? Car trips' distances on average likely exceed bike trips' distances?

Fwiw, regarding motorcycling, it's undoubtedly dangerous, but if you section off riders who were impaired, and riders under 25, it suddenly looks like a (more) reasonable activity.

Trips is the correct normalized statistic. Obviously cars travel much further
than pedestrians or cyclists, because they travel faster. Distance introduces a
spatial statistical bias, because obviously the speed at which cars travel encourages
people to drive further. Some studies suggest per hours traveled as a
measure, but trips is simple and logical.

more here if you're interested:


http://www.minnpost.com/minnesota-blog-cabin/2012/11/saying-goodbye-passenger-mile

[Louis]

So what would have happened if he had gotten back to the road without hitting the tree? Just kept on going?

Not very far, because the entire front left wheel had been ripped off the car. (by the small stone wall)

[Louis]

Here it is -- you ready? Duct-tape the driver to the front bumper.

Or, instead of an air-bag, a 9" dagger in the middle of the steering wheel pointed right at the chest.

Improved safety just makes it easier, less painful, for drivers to act in an irresponsible manner, increasing the risks to others around them (e.g. cyclists).