Looks like CC might not have given up on Merlin just yet..

[Nooch]

- The most important bike trade show is the one that gets talked about the least, Taichung Bike Week. The most interesting anecdote coming from the show was the conclusion that carbon frameset production capacity is outstripping industry demand. It's a revelation with funny timing, particularly when put alongside this recent article, because we're finally starting to prototype the next generation Merlin titanium road frameset. Yes, it will be American-made. Yes, we'll just make a handful for starters. We can't wait to show them off.

Link (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/whats-new/anonymous-factory.467.html)

[oldpotatoe]

Link (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/whats-new/anonymous-factory.467.html)

Do they mean demand is higher than capacity? Cuz the quote sounds like the opposite. But I speak american, not english.

[54ny77]

i liked the comment, "PS. Thanks for dropping the Porsche/Which SUV should I buy bull****. Made me want to puke in my soup."

[bobswire]

Do they mean demand is higher than capacity? Cuz the quote sounds like the opposite. But I speak american, not english.

"TAICHUNG, Taiwan - Last Week’s Taichung Bike Week (TBW) showed one trend that looks like to be ‘going over the top’. TBW presented such an overwhelming offering in carbon frames and parts, that no other conclusion can be made that overkill is taking place here and with that, over-capacity."

http://www.bike-eu.com/Sales-Trends/Market-trends/2012/11/Carbon-Trend-Goes-Over-the-Top-1109892W/?id=&epslanguage=en-GB

[cachagua]

The comments about the unknowability of carbon are very much on point. I'm glad this idea is getting a foothold.

Since my childhood, it's been one of the great attractions of bikes that you could pretty much hold the whole process of making one in your hands. You might not build your own, but you could, with readily-available tools and minimal expertise, and you could modify or, in desperation, repair just about anything. The further bikes get from this, the less we as consumers can control what we're getting.

Dario Pegoretti says he's a blacksmith? There is no blacksmithing carbon. If that's what we love about bikes, we're not getting it from Taiwan.

But, so, overcapacity... ha ha! Will there be trickle-down, and soon there are $69.99 carbon bikes at Walgreen's? Or will the factories convert to making carbon gearshift knobs and heater-vent grilles for low-rider Honda Civics.

[oldpotatoe]

"TAICHUNG, Taiwan - Last Week’s Taichung Bike Week (TBW) showed one trend that looks like to be ‘going over the top’. TBW presented such an overwhelming offering in carbon frames and parts, that no other conclusion can be made that overkill is taking place here and with that, over-capacity."

http://www.bike-eu.com/Sales-Trends/Market-trends/2012/11/Carbon-Trend-Goes-Over-the-Top-1109892W/?id=&epslanguage=en-GB

What I thought. The market has been awash with carbon, cheap, expensive, good, bad for a decade. I figured out there is a market for metal bikes here in this, albeit small, bicycle market. 6 bike shops all w/i 20 blocks of me. Only one other sells metal bikes(IF)...all the rest are trekspecialized(2)giantcannondalekonafeltmerckxcol nagopinarelloguru-carbon

[bobswire]

What I thought. The market has been awash with carbon, cheap, expensive, good, bad for a decade. I figured out there is a market for metal bikes here in this, albeit small, bicycle market. 6 bike shops all w/i 20 blocks of me. Only one other sells metal bikes(IF)...all the rest are trekspecialized(2)giantcannondalekonafeltmerckxcol nagopinarelloguru-carbon

Well if I lived in your are you'd be my LBS for sure. My fav LBS is The Bike Nook in San Francisco, but that's because I've known and been a customer of Lens since the mid eighties. Very old school,steel or alu,no CF or TI and most likely survives because of servicing and selling accessories.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2sb7bm0.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2vd46eg.jpg

[old iron rider]

The comments about the unknowability of carbon are very much on point. I'm glad this idea is getting a foothold.

Since my childhood, it's been one of the great attractions of bikes that you could pretty much hold the whole process of making one in your hands. You might not build your own, but you could, with readily-available tools and minimal expertise, and you could modify or, in desperation, repair just about anything. The further bikes get from this, the less we as consumers can control what we're getting.

Dario Pegoretti says he's a blacksmith? There is no blacksmithing carbon. If that's what we love about bikes, we're not getting it from Taiwan.

But, so, overcapacity... ha ha! Will there be trickle-down, and soon there are $69.99 carbon bikes at Walgreen's? Or will the factories convert to making carbon gearshift knobs and heater-vent grilles for low-rider Honda Civics.

Bud, you are so on the money with your post. I have thought this very same thing. How many are going to be pissed when a carbon bike shows up at W/Mart, for 150.00.?

[54ny77]

crabon gone to the crapper!

http://store.carbonfibergear.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/550x413/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/-/2-carbon-fiber-toilet-seat_big.jpg

http://store.carbonfibergear.com/carbon-fiber-toilet-seat

Or for a cool 68 large, soak yourself whilst luxuriating in prepreg:

http://store.carbonfibergear.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/550x413/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/-/1-corcel-carbon-fiber-bathtub_1.jpg

[FlashUNC]

The mass production of carbon bikes is no different than the mass production of steel bikes over the last century or so. Only thing that's changed is the location and the material being used.

Some people make great stuff, some people make crap. Saying carbon is "unknowable" is absurd.

[nahtnoj]

There is no blacksmithing carbon.

Of course there is. Certain carbon construction techniques are less repairable than others, but that is true of any material.

[dnades]

any info on the merlin?

[bobswire]

any info on the merlin?

That was the sole reason I checked in this thread, I could really care less for CF.:eek:

[rice rocket]

The comments about the unknowability of carbon are very much on point. I'm glad this idea is getting a foothold.


I agree, but I find it ironic coming from a company who sells $16k uber-carbon creations.

[Nooch]

That was the sole reason I checked in this thread, I could really care less for CF.:eek:


The quote that I referenced is at least a glimmer that CC hasn't given up on Merlin, as it seemed to last year. Prototyping, building in America.. That's positive news, no?

[cachagua]

"Saying carbon is "unknowable" is absurd"...

It's true that there's great stuff and there's crap, in any material, but the difference is that the prevalence of carbon (with the associated manufacturing and marketing practices) has brought the anonymity and unaccountability of mass production to a higher niche, in the whole spectrum of bike quality.

A few decades ago, if you bought a $69.99 bike, whoever made it was totally faceless, and if you had a problem, there was no finding them and talking to them about it. Same is true today. But a few decades ago, if you bought the best bike in the world, most likely you knew exactly who made it, and assuming you were willing to pay the long-distance charges (remember paying for long-distance?) and maybe knew a foreign language, you could have a conversation with that individual and work out whatever was on your mind.

But now, if you buy the best bike in the world -- that is, if your idea of "best bike in the world" is a carbon bike -- most likely it was made on contract in a factory on the other side of the world from the offices of the brand. Sure there are individuals working in carbon, and you can have conversations with them, but the bulk of the "best in the world" market is mass-produced, not built by an identifiable human being.

You may never have an issue with your bike, you may never particularly want to talk to someone about it, but it's nice to know you could -- it roots the experience of ownership in a community, the community of bike builders and bike riders. Is a guy watching the dial on a CNC machine that threads bottom brackets on Cervelos a member of this community? Not to take anything away from factory workers, but is he a bike builder? Of course not. But if you buy a Cervelo, he's your man, and if you buy any of a dozen other brands, chances are he's your man for those bikes too. --Or, maybe he's not, maybe it's a guy in some other factory down the river a hundred miles... who knows?

It's in that sense that I mean "unknowable". And perhaps for a lot of folks that's unimportant; they buy the best bike in the world (in their eyes) and don't feel they've lost anything if its origins are a mystery. And yet -- in another thread, someone mentioned the serial-number registries of sports cars, and nobody would ever care about that if they didn't want to put this object they own and love into a human context. I still have the card that came with one bike of mine, with the signatures of the people who built it. I've never met any of 'em -- but what it means to me is that *people* built this thing, fellow enthusiasts with whom I share certain experiences and attitudes.

It's not impossible to have that with carbon too, but even in the topmost niche of the market, it's numerically insignificant -- far, far more rare than with bikes of other materials. The overwhelming bulk of the carbon market is mass produced -- with all that that entails.

I hope that's a little less absurd now?

Okay then. Merlin. Used to have one, put the wrong fork in it so it handled badly (a carbon fork!) so like a fool I sold it. Really like to get another some day. So if they're cranking up production, well good!

[FlashUNC]

"Saying carbon is "unknowable" is absurd"...

It's true that there's great stuff and there's crap, in any material, but the difference is that the prevalence of carbon (with the associated manufacturing and marketing practices) has brought the anonymity and unaccountability of mass production to a higher niche, in the whole spectrum of bike quality.

A few decades ago, if you bought a $69.99 bike, whoever made it was totally faceless, and if you had a problem, there was no finding them and talking to them about it. Same is true today. But a few decades ago, if you bought the best bike in the world, most likely you knew exactly who made it, and assuming you were willing to pay the long-distance charges (remember paying for long-distance?) and maybe knew a foreign language, you could have a conversation with that individual and work out whatever was on your mind.

But now, if you buy the best bike in the world -- that is, if your idea of "best bike in the world" is a carbon bike -- most likely it was made on contract in a factory on the other side of the world from the offices of the brand. Sure there are individuals working in carbon, and you can have conversations with them, but the bulk of the "best in the world" market is mass-produced, not built by an identifiable human being.

You may never have an issue with your bike, you may never particularly want to talk to someone about it, but it's nice to know you could -- it roots the experience of ownership in a community, the community of bike builders and bike riders. Is a guy watching the dial on a CNC machine that threads bottom brackets on Cervelos a member of this community? Not to take anything away from factory workers, but is he a bike builder? Of course not. But if you buy a Cervelo, he's your man, and if you buy any of a dozen other brands, chances are he's your man for those bikes too. --Or, maybe he's not, maybe it's a guy in some other factory down the river a hundred miles... who knows?

It's in that sense that I mean "unknowable". And perhaps for a lot of folks that's unimportant; they buy the best bike in the world (in their eyes) and don't feel they've lost anything if its origins are a mystery. And yet -- in another thread, someone mentioned the serial-number registries of sports cars, and nobody would ever care about that if they didn't want to put this object they own and love into a human context. I still have the card that came with one bike of mine, with the signatures of the people who built it. I've never met any of 'em -- but what it means to me is that *people* built this thing, fellow enthusiasts with whom I share certain experiences and attitudes.

It's not impossible to have that with carbon too, but even in the topmost niche of the market, it's numerically insignificant -- far, far more rare than with bikes of other materials. The overwhelming bulk of the carbon market is mass produced -- with all that that entails.

I hope that's a little less absurd now?

Okay then. Merlin. Used to have one, put the wrong fork in it so it handled badly (a carbon fork!) so like a fool I sold it. Really like to get another some day. So if they're cranking up production, well good!

Just to continue the thread drift...

You're completely discounting is that these brands have a cachet to maintain. Even if they are using subcontractors -- another practice as old as the industry itself -- who make subpar bikes, then the brands themselves will feel the very direct and real impact. So they have a vested interest in this "unknowable" construction method. Its like any other purchase. You're placing an implicit trust in that company, who has to deliver on that promise, that you're getting something that meets whatever quality standards, whether implicit or explicit, that brand outlines. If not, the brand suffers very real and lasting damage.

And while there have always been the "one man shop" notions of building bikes, that's generally been rarer than this romantic notion of everyone pre-1970 buying a bike from a builder like Faliero Masi. The reality was the bulk of these things have been cranked out in mass quantities along an assembly line. Only now, the location is Asia rather than Europe.

I also think you're also assuming that somehow buyers can tell the difference between largely similar round tube steel bikes, but carbon is some kind of magical construction that is impossible to figure out.

[54ny77]

Who knew Pinarello is nothing more than industrial trawler-caught Pollock?

Does that make handmade bikes the new line-caught fresh local striped bass?

[JeffS]

I'm surprised that anyone really cares about "Merlin" at this point.

After all, it's really just a yet to be designed sticker to be placed on a yet to be welded downtube. "Made in the USA"? Cool. That means I can just buy direct from that builder and not pay the CC surcharge.

The only thing they could possibly bring to the table is the money to have them batch made and orderable without getting into a queue.

[nahtnoj]

I also think you're also assuming that somehow buyers can tell the difference between largely similar round tube steel bikes, but carbon is some kind of magical construction that is impossible to figure out.

Amen.

[Walter]

I am glad to see the Merlin name is still around, but I am not a fan of CC after they dumped supporting their US based pro team that did so well the last 2 years.

[rice rocket]

I am glad to see the Merlin name is still around, but I am not a fan of CC after they dumped supporting their US based pro team that did so well the last 2 years.

Last I read they were merging w/ Kenda-5-Hour Energy (and CC was to be the principal owners)?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/kenda-competitive-cyclist-to-merge-in-2013_236699

[Walter]

Last I read they were merging w/ Kenda-5-Hour Energy (and CC was to be the principal owners)?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/kenda-competitive-cyclist-to-merge-in-2013_236699

CC was but the primary sponsor, not an owner, of the team. The management company that owns the team merged it with Kenda. CC left the house...