Gone to 25 mm wide tires

[Smiley]

Changed my computer setting to 211 ( 25 mm ) from 210 ( 23 mm ) . Honestly can someone tell me why I have not made this change a long time ago. It just looks more logical to me and since all my OTHER bikes ( Tandem 28's , Fixee 28's ) are wider treads I don't know why I waited so long. I THINK the bike will feel more sure footed and I can't imagine any loss in performance. Geeks speak up and give me the engineering reasons why NOT. Thanks :)

GONE WIDER , 23 to 25 mm , and you guys can't be serious about aero effects :banana:

[Serotta PETE]

you can put them on my bike - - when is the party in DC???

[Cadence230]

Are you saying you went to a narrower tire? If so the tire will be more aerodynamic but will have more rolling resistance. On the other hand if you went to a wider tire you will have more air resistance but less rolling resistance.

[Kurt]

I cannot think of any reason to use a 25, except maybe doing cobbles or bad roads all the time - comfort comes from mostly wheels, not tires - get a 32x aerohead and the problem goes away, if thats why you made the move.

[dave thompson]

I cannot think of any reason to use a 25, except maybe doing cobbles or bad roads all the time - comfort comes from mostly wheels, not tires - get a 32x aerohead and the problem goes away, if thats why you made the move.
Au contraire! At least in my opinion. I've found that switching to 25's on all our family bikes several years ago, the comfort level went up quite a bit. Same wheels, just a tire change. Besides, changing tires is much less expensive than changing rims. Plus less likely to fall in the expansion cracks on surfaces.

[flydhest]

I have to agree with Dave and disagree with Kurt. In addition, 25s or (gasp) 28s are also better, in my experience, for avoiding pinch flats. Larger volumes of air are good things for commuting bikes, which is where I run 25s or 28s.

Pete, when can you get up here? The party is whenever you're here, baby.

[Johny]

Comfort comes from neither wheels or tires, but tire pressure. :D

[Bradford]

Dave and Fly are right, 25s are the way to go. Sure rims and tire pressure are factors, but so are the tires.

I haven't ridden 23s in years and I'm not going back. Welcome to the club, mon Capitan.

[Brian Smith]

Being able to buy almost any model of tire you see is an advantage of 23s to me, but that's about the only one.
I like to run over stuff fast, or at least I like to not worry so much about a flat when I happen to. Extra confidence when drafting, extra threat when pulling.
25s are my friend.

[Bradford]

Biketiresdirect has a good selection of 25s, including the Tri Comps I currently have and GP4000s that will be next.

And they have them both in blue, which is even better. :banana:

[davep]

I went to 25s about 6 months ago and like them so much I'm thinking of trying 27 or 28mm tires.

[Rapid Tourist]

Its funny, I go back and forth between 25s and 23s and I can't tell the difference in the way they feel. Maybe I have buns of steel.

Pete, I agree with Fly man, you ARE the party. Come on up!

[dbrk]

It is true that tire pressure is, in fact, more significant to comfort than width though it is also true that a wider tire _and_ pressure changes will effect comfort even further. I ride 23c tires only on true "race" bikes and not those either if the bike will take at least a 25c. The vast majority of published tire widths are inaccurate, all much smaller than listed. Hence a Michelin ProRace 25c, for example, is considerably wider than a Conti3000 25c (and, imho, the Michelin is a far better tire).

I almost always prefer a Rivendell RolyPoly/RuffyTuffy (only the casing is different) and am never at a disadvantage when I ride with the "fast guys". It's certainly not the tire if there are issues with the pace!

Riding 23c for anything but racing is, well, the same as racing: it gives you no advantages and only disadvantages in terms of comfort and contact. As far as I can figure, most folks ride tires too hard and too skinny for much but real racing. Fashion, fashion, and fashion are the three reasons why 23c are so popular. But if you are just out there wanting fast, fun, and comfortable, then do yerself a favor and use a wider tire...dare I say 28c? Conti 28c are not even really 27c RP wide!!...and while yer at it, don't pump them up to the max. Your bike will ride about a million times more comfortable.

dbrk

p.s. for real fat boy slick road bike comfort try the Avocet 32c. For these you will need stnd reach calipers or comparable and almost none of these _terrible_ for clearance carbon forks will do....again there would be NO DiSADVANTAGE if a carbon fork could clear a bigger tire but what do we get? Just more and more skinny tire race bikes. Well, we'll change that soon, hopefully.

[MRB]

I prefer 25 mm tires as well. IMO they ride nicer, last longer, and get less pinch flats.

What I don't understand though, is that the actual tire width varies quite a bit from mfg. to mfg.

For instance, my current favorite clincher, the Continental folding Ultra 2000 or 3000 runs very narrow. I buy them in 28c, but when you measure them with a caliper, they measure 25 mm

It looks like the Michelin tires run truer to size?

Has anyone else found this to be. What are your favorite 25 mm or greater tires?

- M

[Johny]

What I don't understand though, is that the actual tire width varies quite a bit from mfg. to mfg.

Nothing they say is accurate from length to weight. :D


Has anyone else found this to be. What are your favorite 25 mm or greater tires?

Continental Competition 700x25mm TUBULARS!

[Brian Smith]

I like the Avocet Fasgrip Road SLs.
All black, all slick, kevlar bead, affordable.
I've used them since Continental Super Sport Ultras went out.
Put 'em on some rims wider than 21mm and I get excited to corner.

[dirtdigger88]

Comfort comes from neither wheels or tires, but tire pressure. :D

you are right- but bigger guys need bigger volume tires to be able to go with lower pressure-

I could never run 85 psi with 23 tires but I can with 27's

Jason

[SoCalSteve]

The only wheel that I own that does not have 25's is the one for the front of my Hors Cat. It has an F1 fork and will not accept 25's. Well, it will, but it rubs ever so slightly....I hate that!!!

Yes, as the wise Douglas Brooks says: Michelin ProRace2 700 x 25's and I keep them at 100 PSI. Comfy, stable and fast enough for me...

Good Luck Captain, you made the right choice.

Steve

[shinomaster]

I did a road ride recently with my Bro who has a Scott carbon bike and the duracrap and K's...and I rode my fuji cross bike with Mud tires....
I could hang with him....good times....and nary a bump.

I got some bontrager race lights wire bead 700 * 25's on sale for $6.99 that I just can't wait to try...after racing is done I'll put them on my cross pig.

[William]

I have to agree with Dave and disagree with Kurt. In addition, 25s or (gasp) 28s are also better, in my experience, for avoiding pinch flats. Larger volumes of air are good things for commuting bikes, which is where I run 25s or 28s.

Pete, when can you get up here? The party is whenever you're here, baby.

Ditto.
We've been over this before. When I was racing I would run 23's up front and 25's on the back. For training I went from straight 25's to 28's due to the volume of pinch flats I was getting. At first I resisted because I had the perception that 28's were going to be slower. They aren't. No one was all of a sudden dropping me on the flats or on climbs after I switched. The only difference was that my comfort level went up, and my incidents of flats went way down.
I could run them at a lower pressure but I find I'm fine with them at about 125 psi. And since I have to go custom on anything I own, I'll always request that they have the clearance to take 28's.


William

[scrooge]

I'm sure there's a very obvious answer to this question, but I'm rather oblique: Is there a way to check if your bike will take 28s? I'm a big boy running 25s (Contis) at the moment and was thinking about giving the 28s a try next time. Hey, if William can do it, I can do it.
Also, are there limits to how wide a tire my rims can take? Or will 27/28 be in range for most rims?

[dbrk]

I'm sure there's a very obvious to question, but I'm rather oblique: Is there a way to check if your bike will take 28s? Also, are there limits to how wide a tire my rims can take? Or will 27/28 be in range for most rims?

The first question is hard to answer because bike tires are so poorly and inaccurately marked and measured (both!). One company's 28 is another's 25 (like Conti to Michelin it seems...or nearly so). I use the Rivendell RolyPoly 27c as my standard of measurement because it really does measure 27mm. That said, it is larger than more Conti28s! So my answer is that you can buy a tire and check yourself, get a cooperative LBS to do the testing, or tell us your fork and frame and hope someone else has tried it. There's no simple formula, that's for sure.

As for rims holding fatter tires...well, most common clincher rims can handle most road tires of nearly any size without the slightest problem. For example, I run 25c Conti3000 (which are really 23c) on OpenPro rims and 35c Avocets on the same. The rim widths discussion on biketiresdirect.com is conservative though I am not taking any responsibility for what folks do!!! Ride at your risk but my personal experience is that there's not much in the way of risk. I pay little attention to rim width as a factor because rims are so good at holding on tires and I've never had a problem. I don't use any exceptionally skinny rims, not that I can tell but I often run wide tires (for roadies), no problem.

dbrk

[scrooge]

So my answer is that you can buy a tire and check yourself, get a cooperative LBS to do the testing, or tell us your fork and frame and hope someone else has tried it. There's no simple formula, that's for sure.



So has anybody tried running any 27/28s with a True Temper Alpha Q pro fork? If so, which ones?

[dbrk]

So has anybody tried running any 27/28s with a True Temper Alpha Q pro fork? If so, which ones?

The AQ fork is not great for clearances. I can barelybarely (not recommended) fit a mismarked Conti28c 2000. I doubt it will handle a true 28c GP3000 or the taller Gatorskin or 4Season (I like these tires but still, they could be closer to true size and I would like them more). It will not handle a Rivendell RolyPoly (at a true 27c, best clincher ever though I wish it were also in 32 or 35c). I think might barelybarely squeeze a 25c Michelin ProRace but if your roads provide peril and a rock gets stuck it either pulls through or sends you over the bars (I have done both). Most 25c tires will fit this AQ, very few 28c (all in the as marked fantasy world of bike tires). The Reynolds Ouzo is slightly better, the Pro better than the wide bladed Pro Peloton for clearances. YMMV.

dbrk

[sjbraun]

I've beeen contemplating a switch to 25s recently, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I was quite pleasantly surprised to note the the LBS had installed 25mm Pro2 Race Michelins on my new Marcelo. (I thought they looked a little big.) I"m curious to know what tire pressures you use. I've seen pressures of 85 and 125 psi mentioned in these posts. That's quite a range. Has anyone found a sweet spot that provides all the aforementioned benefits and prevents pinch flats?

[Smiley]

I just measured my Hutchinson Gold Comps which are rated for 25 mm width , they actually measure at 23 mm , I feel cheated !!!! So I measured more tires , the Gatorskins at 28 mm measure out properly . Nothing else does , they are all narrower. Rip off :banana:

[ClutchCargo]

but if there is no fall off in speed or performance from wider tires, and there's less likelihood of flatting, then why are the pros using 23's (or narrower) tires?

to those in the know, thanks in advance

ride on!

[Bruce Jacobs]

by the variety of posts. I read about the love of tubular tires and how well they ride. I get all excited and read about wheels, flats and all the related stuff.

Then I read this thread about 25s and how great they are. I have often believed that road tests from the end user are more valid than most reviews by independent raters.

But when confused, which is what happens to me more often than not, I do nothing. My 23s will stay on the bike. Now if it doesn't rain this weekend-wishful thinking!

[davep]

but if there is no fall off in speed or performance from wider tires, and there's less likelihood of flatting, then why are the pros using 23's (or narrower) tires?

to those in the know, thanks in advance

ride on!

I think you are right. If there was no measurable drop off in performance why wouldn't the pros ride wider, more comfortable tires? But I think the big difference is aerodynamics, and for pros who ride considrably faster than most of us, that can make a big difference, especially in time trials.

[zap]

Wider tires (18-20+ depending on rim) will slow you down when on a break or tt. Proven over many aero studies. But it doesn't matter if your in a pack or out training etc. OK, wider tires are heavier so it might slow you down in the hills a second or two.

I suspect some have, ok, hit me now, frames that do not ride comfortably.

I've tested a number of bikes over the years with my regular wheelset with 20/20 clincher Conti's pumped to 120 psi. Several bikes rode like an anvil on French pave. I'm sure if I kept the supplied wheelset (always with 23 clinchers) and only pumped them to say 100 psi, the ride would have been nice. Squishy but nice. Tubulars would have helped but I was not in the tube phase when testing most of those bikes.

Now if I lived where there are poor roads, I would change my mind.

[dave thompson]

I've beeen contemplating a switch to 25s recently, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I was quite pleasantly surprised to note the the LBS had installed 25mm Pro2 Race Michelins on my new Marcelo. (I thought they looked a little big.) I"m curious to know what tire pressures you use. I've seen pressures of 85 and 125 psi mentioned in these posts. That's quite a range. Has anyone found a sweet spot that provides all the aforementioned benefits and prevents pinch flats?
The pressure sort of depends on your weight. At (a very svelte :D ) 190, I use 100psi front and rear. I've suffered no pinch flats, riding over some pretty bad roads, in the last two years.

[Tailwinds]

What is the largest tire any of you have used w/a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork?

[Ray]

I just measured my Hutchinson Gold Comps which are rated for 25 mm width , they actually measure at 23 mm , I feel cheated !!!! So I measured more tires , the Gatorskins at 28 mm measure out properly . Nothing else does , they are all narrower. Rip off :banana:
OTOH, I ride Michelin 23s and 25s, which measure more like 24 and 26. So the 23s ride fatter than most makers' 25s and the 25s are effectively as fat as Roly Polys.

Ride Michelin - never feel cheated again!

-Ray

[dave thompson]

What is the largest tire any of you have used w/a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork?
I'm using 25's on my bike, which has an F2 fork. I just looked and there seems to be about 4mm clearance from the sides and top of the tire to the fork.

[Smiley]

Thanks Ray , once I started to actually measure my tires it now making more sense to me. I think for what I just paid for my Gold Comps I'll keep them and try them out I wish I had measured my 23's before removing them. I like the fact that i'll have a bit more tread on the road . Smiley

[Kurt]

I think you are right. If there was no measurable drop off in performance why wouldn't the pros ride wider, more comfortable tires? But I think the big difference is aerodynamics, and for pros who ride considrably faster than most of us, that can make a big difference, especially in time trials.

never rides in the hills or is too overweight to notice. They have there place, but not on a performance bike

[William]

never rides in the hills or is too overweight to notice. They have there place, but not on a performance bike

I just randomly chose a manufacturer and picked lines that had 23 thru 28's in them.

Conti Grand Prix 4 Season 23's at 220g, 25's & 28's listed at 250g (foldable).
Conti Grand Prix 3000, 23's at 210g, 25's listed at 220g (foldable).
Conti Ultrasport, 23's at 310g, 25's listed at 330g, 28's at 350g (wire).
Conti Sonderklasse, 23's at 240/250g, 25's at 260g, 28's at 270g.

Since one ounce = 30 grams, we're dealing with less then one ounce difference. If those weights are correct, and they came from the Conti website, that's a negligible difference. Maybe at an elite level where everyones abilities are so close, that less then one ounce difference might mean something, but at the sport racer/rec rider level... I don't think so. Forgo the jam & butter on your morning toast for a week or so and you'll lose more body weight then one once.




William

[dave thompson]

never rides in the hills or is too overweight to notice. They have there place, but not on a performance bike
I ride in the hills, a lot, I'm not consdered a clydesdale and I've put 25s on my performance bikes.

Perhaps you should say that 25 tires aren't for you, and allow everyone else make up their own minds.

[Kurt]

I ride in the hills, a lot, I'm not consdered a clydesdale and I've put 25s on my performance bikes.

Perhaps you should say that 25 tires aren't for you, and allow everyone else make up their own minds.

25 are not for me - i actually though everyone was making up their own minds, like always

[Kurt]

I just randomly chose a manufacturer and picked lines that had 23 thru 28's in them.

Conti Grand Prix 4 Season 23's at 220g, 25's & 28's listed at 250g (foldable).
Conti Grand Prix 3000, 23's at 210g, 25's listed at 220g (foldable).
Conti Ultrasport, 23's at 310g, 25's listed at 330g, 28's at 350g (wire).
Conti Sonderklasse, 23's at 240/250g, 25's at 260g, 28's at 270g.

Since one ounce = 30 grams, we're dealing with less then one ounce difference. If those weights are correct, and they came from the Conti website, that's a negligible difference. Maybe at an elite level where everyones abilities are so close, that less then one ounce difference might mean something, but at the sport racer/rec rider level... I don't think so. Forgo the jam & butter on your morning toast for a week or so and you'll lose more body weight then one once.




William

but weight is not the whole story, the footprint and design is different + the TP - I often use liners in both my wheels and that adds 50gm per wheel, right where you don't want it - in 23's they are still more than passable. up a hill, a good 8 mile, 5-8% hill you can't feel a differerence, even a teny winnie little one?

[William]

but weight is not the whole story, the footprint and design is different + the TP - I often use liners in both my wheels and that adds 50gm per wheel, right where you don't want it - in 23's they are still more than passable. up a hill, a good 8 mile, 5-8% hill you can't feel a differerence, even a teny winnie little one?

If your comparing different brands of tires with different designs, sure. I'm sure you might feel a difference between a Conti and Veloflex 23mm tires. If your trying to find out how much of a difference you might feel between sizes, it would make sense to compare different sizes within the same line. That way you have the same tire design with the same TPI, no? Even if you use liners, in the end, the difference will still be less then an ounce per tire. If your climbing that good 8 mile, 5-8% hill, do you think you're going to be noticeably fresher at the top if I took your spare tube out of you pocket without your knowing? I think that would make more of a difference then the difference in tire weights above.

When I first switched I was living in Oregon and still racing. I had plenty of big climbs out there and they didn't make me any slower. I was dropping the same people on the climbs, and beating the same people in the sprints. Bottom line, if I can go to a slightly bigger size with little to no perceptual difference and reduce my incidents of flats, I'm there.


William

[djg]

What is the largest tire any of you have used w/a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork?

I have a Michelin Pro Race 25 running under (through?) an Ouzo Pro fork these days--no problems. I've never tried a 28 with the fork, so I cannot say how it would do.

[nm87710]

All tires stretch after a few hunder miles. A 23 usually stretches to 25, 20 to 22, etc. 25's would go to 27 which is in Monster Truck tire territory.

[dauwhe]

All tires stretch after a few hunder miles. A 23 usually stretches to 25, 20 to 22, etc. 25's would go to 27 which is in Monster Truck tire territory.

I've never heard this. I'm a bit skeptical. I run tires far wider than Monster Truck size (37mm in 650B), and clearances to the fenders are quite tight. I think if my tires were 2 or 3 mm wider after a while, I would notice (i.e. the tires would be close to fouling the fenders!).

I don't have calipers, and so don't have hard evidence either way. But I'm curious as to how the tires would get wider--I don't think the casing would stretch appreciably...

Dave Cramer
Brattleboro, Vermont

[palincss]

I've never heard this. I'm a bit skeptical. I run tires far wider than Monster Truck size (37mm in 650B), and clearances to the fenders are quite tight. I think if my tires were 2 or 3 mm wider after a while, I would notice (i.e. the tires would be close to fouling the fenders!).

I don't have calipers, and so don't have hard evidence either way. But I'm curious as to how the tires would get wider--I don't think the casing would stretch appreciably...

Dave Cramer
Brattleboro, Vermont

There's a substantial difference in the roll-out of a 25 vs a 23mm tire. If 23s grew to 25s over the life of the tire, wouldn't you notice that the distances recorded on your computer for known rides were mysteriously changing as your tires aged? I'm more than a bit skeptical - I think this is simply not so.

[jerk]

continental sonderklasse tubulars measure a real 25mm and a faster tire is tough to come by. plus you can put 200psi in the things.....

jerk

[Fixed]

continental sonderklasse tubulars measure a real 25mm and a faster tire is tough to come by. plus you can put 200psi in the things.....

jerk bro I never seen or heard of them where can I get some dude. thanks cheers :beer:

[jerk]

bro I never seen or heard of them where can I get some dude. thanks cheers :beer:


it's a really, really fat 23mm track tubular with a tight cotton casing. they come in both 165 and 175 weights the latter having a thicker tread and being almost suitable for road use. the jerk used to use them for time trials, and yes they were fat and yes they are really fast and any bike shop should be able to get'em. they are not cheap.
jerk

[sjbraun]

Didn't Velonews or Cyclingnews publish an article from Continental saying that the rolling resistance of a 25mm tire was actually less than that of a 23mm tire. IIRC, the article stated that the only real advantages of the narrower size were aerodynamic ones and that these advantages were only noticable in events like long time trials. I can't find a link to the article, but surely someone who reads this forum book marked it.

[nm87710]

There's a substantial difference in the roll-out of a 25 vs a 23mm tire. If 23s grew to 25s over the life of the tire, wouldn't you notice that the distances recorded on your computer for known rides were mysteriously changing as your tires aged? I'm more than a bit skeptical - I think this is simply not so.

I've measured several tires with a pair of calipers when they are brand new and again after 1000-1500 miles. 1-2mm wider. As far as mysteriously changing ride distances, I don't track mileage - just time and heart rate.

[Kurt]

Didn't Velonews or Cyclingnews publish an article from Continental saying that the rolling resistance of a 25mm tire was actually less than that of a 23mm tire. IIRC, the article stated that the only real advantages of the narrower size were aerodynamic ones and that these advantages were only noticable in events like long time trials. I can't find a link to the article, but surely someone who reads this forum book marked it.


At the same inflation pressure, a wider tire will actually have lower rolling resistance on most road surfaces because the majority of the rolling resistance comes from the heat loss of tire deformation. Since a wider tire (at the same inflation pressure) will deform less, it will lose less energy while rolling. I think it comes down to this 4me - 25 is fine for a long comfy ride but it you are looking for more performance advantages then a 23 might be a better choice - how's that for a pc comment.

[Brian Smith]

Didn't Velonews or Cyclingnews publish an article from Continental saying that the rolling resistance of a 25mm tire was actually less than that of a 23mm tire. IIRC, the article stated that the only real advantages of the narrower size were aerodynamic ones and that these advantages were only noticable in events like long time trials. I can't find a link to the article, but surely someone who reads this forum book marked it.

I recall that from recent issues as well.
Look for nothing but 25s during next year's mountaintop stage finishes.
seems to make some sense...
But don't bet your life on it, nor even a dollar!
Glad to hear about the Sonderklasses, Jerk, I'll get some for my track bike and some other tubular-shod bikes. C'mon, this is the Serotta Forum, how EXPENSIVE could they really be? You can pay a lot for baloney paperlite 18mm clinchers too......

[Kane]

Bruce,
Tubular tires may not be worth the 'hassels', but they ride better than clinchers. But if you are going to ride a clincher, get a wider one and don't fill it with so much air. You'll notice the difference immediately. More air means more comfort.

Cheers,

Kane



by the variety of posts. I read about the love of tubular tires and how well they ride. I get all excited and read about wheels, flats and all the related stuff.

Then I read this thread about 25s and how great they are. I have often believed that road tests from the end user are more valid than most reviews by independent raters.

But when confused, which is what happens to me more often than not, I do nothing. My 23s will stay on the bike. Now if it doesn't rain this weekend-wishful thinking!

[zap]

Didn't Velonews or Cyclingnews publish an article from Continental saying that the rolling resistance of a 25mm tire was actually less than that of a 23mm tire. IIRC, the article stated that the only real advantages of the narrower size were aerodynamic ones and that these advantages were only noticable in events like long time trials. I can't find a link to the article, but surely someone who reads this forum book marked it.


Here you go

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9093

[shaq-d]

saying a 100 PSI 20mm tire has more rolilng resistance than a 100 PSI 25mm doesn't help me. the 20mm tire usually gets pumped at higher PSIs than 25mm tire. i'd like to see stats on rolling resistance for typical recommended PSI for a 20mm and a 25mm. doing a comparison for equal PSI across different widths of tires isn't all that relevant and doesn't tell me much.

a thinner tire is lighter and has less air resistance. it's still an open question for me whether a higher PSI thinner tire has more rolling resistance than a lower PSI thicker tire.

sd

[djg]

bro I never seen or heard of them where can I get some dude. thanks cheers :beer:

By all means, try them. For less money (and more weight), the Continental Competition tubulars are available in a 25 and Veloflex has a "Roubaix" tubular in a size 24--I have one of the latter in use now and it's a really nice tire.

[Serotta PETE]

I have to agree with Dave and disagree with Kurt. In addition, 25s or (gasp) 28s are also better, in my experience, for avoiding pinch flats. Larger volumes of air are good things for commuting bikes, which is where I run 25s or 28s.

Pete, when can you get up here? The party is whenever you're here, baby.


Thanks, I miss seeeing you guys...


PETE