Vista Bikes Fraud

[LO^OK]

Due to the negative emotions I don't enjoy sharing such stories though hope my experience will benefit others. Recently I ordered the system cranks-pedals Integral Synchro from http://www.vista-bikes.com. The cranks arrived without any size indication and when measured they turned out to be 175 mm at their shortest (they employ some clever eccentric pedal mount so at 9 and at 3 o'clock the length is not the same); my order was for 172,5 mm.

Ensued email correspondence with Mr Vista Bikes Dominique Fournier, where he denied, told me some improvised lies, and was consistently evasive about exchanging the product for the ordered size; or, alternatively, issuing a refund.

Seems Vista Bikes have had difficulties (no one is selling their products anymore), and the remaining stock have been on fire sale for quite some time. As the Integral Synchro exist in older publicity shots with big visible size labelling on the outside I strongly suspect the size info has been removed deliberately from the remaining sets in an attempt to sell them quicker (172,5 mm probably sold out first as, with the 170 mm, is one the most used sizes; in contrast fewer buy 175 mm). All the above is conjecture but can't be too far off as I can't think of any other plausible explanation.

However, what double the pain is the fact that I like the cranks so much: an absolutely amazing product of a truly inspired engineering.

[eddief]

credit card companies don't like to see their vendors screwing their customers.

[cachagua]

I looked at the video but I couldn't see what makes them revolutionary...?

Judging by the photo, the chainring is non-round, and you can put its eccentricity where you want it (within limits), and it comes with its own pedals, which sit some distance from the centerline of the crank...

There's more? I need some 'splainin'. Thanks in advance--

[LO^OK]

credit card companies don't like to see their vendors screwing their customers.

Paypal; they however always demand the buyer to pay the return, so the victim is penalised once more. Not to mention that this starkly contravene the EU consumer protection legislation.

[LO^OK]

I looked at the video but I couldn't see what makes them revolutionary...?

Judging by the photo, the chainring is non-round, and you can put its eccentricity where you want it (within limits), and it comes with its own pedals, which sit some distance from the centerline of the crank...

There's more? I need some 'splainin'. Thanks in advance--

There is a lot to be said about the Vista pedals. Where with conventional pedals one in truth pedal in ovoid with Vista one approaches true circle; in addition the leverage is much better in the "power zone" from 2 to past 6 o'clock, and in this it has similar effect to non circular chain ring; the pedal mount on the Integral is eccentric, permitting the effective crank length to vary during the circle - at 9 o'clock it measure 175 mm while at 3 it becomes 180 mm, which correlate with better leverage/faster return.

Even if you are sceptical about all the trickery in person the cranks-pedals are a lovely piece of gear. Pity it's too big for me, I am in the range of 170 - 172,5 mm (though interestingly, thanks again to the pedal ingeniousness, with Vista 175 mm crank+pedal my foot at 12 o'clock is exactly as high as with Shimano crank 170 mm + SPD-SL; this is actual measurement, not the company publicity) .

P.S. I should have clarified that while at 12 o'clock Vista 175 mm place the foot as high as Shimano 170 mm+SPD-SL, at 6 o'clock the foot go much lower with Vista (almost 2 cm!) thus permitting much better leg extension with lower seat/ lowered center of gravity, and better aerodynamics; wore the same shoes of course.

[ultraman6970]

Shimano came up with that concept like 30 years ago and I believe an american did the same even before than shimano, I even remember a bike with the system in the last cirque du ciclisme.

Big chance they built those cranks in only one size? Well just use them man probably you wont feel any difference (pain the knees) in relation with the regular cranks. Interesting product.

[LO^OK]

Shimano came up with that concept like 30 years ago and I believe an american did the same even before than shimano, I even remember a bike with the system in the last cirque du ciclisme.

Big chance they built those cranks in only one size? Well just use them man probably you wont feel any difference (pain the knees) in relation with the regular cranks. Interesting product.

In sciences one always rely on a wide ranging body of works by others, and I am sure the development team is indebted in this normal sense to many; still, their product is fresh and different, and totally make sense. I shiver at the thought of buying/ installing/ using again another big brand's dull cranks...

At the same time I feel strongly incensed by the trickster approach sales.

Actually the cranckset is sold on paper in three sizes, the S, M, and L, corresponding to, 170 172,5 and 175 mm; earlier they marketed it as 173, 176 and 180 mm I think.

[ultraman6970]

Probably they dont even know how long the cranks are. Wouldn't surprise me that they have only one size aswell :)

Only if that thing was adaptable to other pedal systems, as it is right now unless you use spd (not even sure because i dont give a darn about it) you cant use their cranks :)

[LO^OK]

Probably they dont even know how long the cranks are. Wouldn't surprise me that they have only one size aswell :)

Only if that thing was adaptable to other pedal systems, as it is right now unless you use spd (not even sure because i dont give a darn about it) you cant use their cranks :)

No, Vista crank-pedal interface is one of a kind and one or the other cannot be substituted

[bart998]

Looks like a variation of the old Hi-E pedal concept. It placed the ball of the foot on the pedal axis, thus required lowering the saddle to maintain the same distance as a standard pedal at the bottom of the stroke.

[David Kirk]

I own the Vista pedals and love them. I can't imagine ever going back to a regular system.

I have the type with the normal 9/16" thread that work with a regular crank arm.

I've had little dealings with the Vista folks - just bought some pedals directly from them. They at one point asked if i wanted to be the North American distributor for them and when I told them i was just a one man shop they said they'd look for someone else. They seemed cool when I dealt with them FWIW.

I'm sorry you are getting the short end of the stick.

dave

[monkeybanana86]

I just saw these pedals (http://c-4shop.com/Parts-and-Accessories_c9.htm) while looking at hubs and it reminded me of this post so I was happy to come share. But didn't realize it was the same company :(

Too bad you can't salvage the pedals.

[559Rando]

Vista 175 mm crank+pedal my foot at 12 o'clock is exactly as high as with Shimano crank 170 mm + SPD-SL; this is actual measurement
{snip}
at 12 o'clock Vista 175 mm place the foot as high as Shimano 170 mm+SPD-SL, at 6 o'clock the foot go much lower with Vista (almost 2 cm!)

This is really fascinating. I think this out of norm approach drove the change in sizing labeling and made market penetration more difficult.

If they had lower gearing, I'd be tempted to try them in the 175 or (180, or whatever they truly are!).

It might not be what you want to hear but I'd guess a forumite here might be into this. There's some tall dudes on this board.

[LO^OK]

This is really fascinating. I think this out of norm approach drove the change in sizing labeling and made market penetration more difficult.

I concur; contrary to entrepreneurial textbooks being innovative and standing out from the rest apparently had a negative effect in this case.


If they had lower gearing, I'd be tempted to try them in the 175 or (180, or whatever they truly are!).

If you are tempted by the Vista crank-pedals but not satisfied by the chain ring choice why not match them with a different non circular ring, like O'symetric for example; or in the compact range another, even more daring, choice could be Ogival http://www.ogivalring.com/. Currently the two are considered the most effective non circular rings on the market. That's what I did.

The Vista crank permits changing the angle of a non circular ring if you are into this kind of experimenting; the feature is pretty rare.

[witcombusa]

While you may not have gotten what you thought you were ordering, 2.5mm is almost invisable (at least to me) when riding.
Different shorts (chamois thickness), shoes, pedals, etc. can easily be a bigger difference than that 2.5mm (1/10th of an inch).

I ride cranks from 165mm to 175mm depending on the bike, no issues.

[LO^OK]

While you may not have gotten what you thought you were ordering, 2.5mm is almost invisable (at least to me) when riding.
Different shorts (chamois thickness), shoes, pedals, etc. can easily be a bigger difference than that 2.5mm (1/10th of an inch).

I ride cranks from 165mm to 175mm depending on the bike, no issues.

Sensible point. I thought in the sale lines, and may abandon my attempt to return the cranks.