Asian Carbon Rims [Archive] - The Paceline Forum

svelocity

11-16-2012, 12:27 PM

I did some Paceline searches and I didn't find anything new on the topic. Sooo...

I've seen a couple of companies now - PSIMET (http://www.psimet.com/)and Hermes (http://hermes-sport.com/)- (these are the first two that come to mind but I'm sure there are others) who are importing Taiwanese rims and pairing them up with well known hubs and spokes. I believe the value add (at least with PSIMET) is his wheel building skills.

As these companies seemed to be doing well enough to stay in business are we to assume the Asian rims that are being imported meet the QC standards we desire? If they are importing rims from manufacturers like Gigantex (http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/124.htm) is there a reason why I shouldn't order these rims and pair them to my own hubs and save some coin? I could take them to my local wheel builder...what am I missing? Does anyone have any first hand experience with this?

Cheers!

thegunner

11-16-2012, 12:53 PM

jds108

11-16-2012, 12:55 PM

I have a pair. Bought the rims and built the wheels myself. The rims (60mm clincher) aren't perfect. There is one spot where they're thicker in the brake track, and there was a little lump of clearcoat on the hook (inside surface of rim opposite of the brake).

The thick spot causes a small pulse under low speed braking.

So they're not perfect, but they've been OK. I will not test their temperature resistance under a long steep descent. I have no confidence that they would hold up to that.

Would I but them again? Maybe, it's hard to say. At this point I can't remember which Chinese company I got them from.

AngryScientist

11-16-2012, 01:01 PM

If others on this board want to get in -- i was going to lace up some ultra-cheap rims and would love to do a group shipping effort :)

how cheap might we be talking, i could be in on this...

jdhansen63

11-16-2012, 01:58 PM

how cheap might we be talking, i could be in on this...
+1

thegunner

11-16-2012, 02:16 PM

i'm not 100% sure, but i was actually thinking we get a single shipment to a centralized location and each of us could just forward the box via USPS parcel ($15 on top of the total shipping cost) each to the next member. obviously a lot of trust here, but supposedly they discount in bulk...

William

11-16-2012, 02:18 PM

:banana:Group Buy!!:banana:

William

echelon_john

11-16-2012, 02:21 PM

Or you could ship em to me and I'll build them up for you...

thegunner

11-16-2012, 02:21 PM

lemme do some digging and see what kinds of discounts we can get :)

edit: or echelon_john could do that -- which would be sick. let's do this guys!

Nooch

11-16-2012, 02:22 PM

Or you could ship em to me and I'll build them up for you...

not the worst idea..

AngryScientist

11-16-2012, 02:29 PM

awesome, let's make this happen people.

hey john - build 'em up and come deliver them in the NYC area and ride with us!

Liv2RideHard

11-16-2012, 02:33 PM

Will be interested to see where this goes...keep us informed.

thegunner

11-16-2012, 02:38 PM

so there's a couple of questions i'd have here before i start shooting off emails:

(1) how many people are we talking about/how many rims
(2) custom drillings -- we'd have to get inventory of what everyone wants to see if it's feasible beforehand

if we can all agree on what provider (farsports seems to be pretty popular as is hongfu), i'd be more than happy to organize this.

if echelon_john is up for a bit of extra business/building -- this sounds like a pretty cool thing we can throw together. Not sure about the sourcing on hubs though, anyone have any thoughts? maybe from BHS?

Nooch

11-16-2012, 02:52 PM

i have some used hubs in 32/32 that i might want to use, but new stuff would be good as well..

right now all i know is 32/32.. but depending on the depth 1) might not be feesable and 2) might be overkill..

(edit: all depends on the final price, of course..)

slidey

11-16-2012, 02:55 PM

I was speaking to a very famous local wheelbuilder here (the best, really), who had just built up a pair of carbon MTB wheels with the rims sourced from Hermes. His opinion was that the rims were good, not fantastic like Enve but good. He rarely minces words in giving his honest opinion to an open listener, and since these weren't my wheels I was open. I also know the guy behind Hermes, and he's been in the business for around three years now, and he intends to stay the course. I know of a couple friends who ran Hermes carbon rims for one road racing season, and they had no complaints whatsoever. I haven't heard glowing praise from anyone really, but more importantly I've not head any bad feedback.

I just noticed that you're from SD, you should pay this guy a visit and see what you think for yourself.

I did some Paceline searches and I didn't find anything new on the topic. Sooo...

I've seen a couple of companies now - PSIMET (http://www.psimet.com/)and Hermes (http://hermes-sport.com/)- (these are the first two that come to mind but I'm sure there are others) who are importing Taiwanese rims and pairing them up with well known hubs and spokes. I believe the value add (at least with PSIMET) is his wheel building skills.

As these companies seemed to be doing well enough to stay in business are we to assume the Asian rims that are being imported meet the QC standards we desire? If they are importing rims from manufacturers like Gigantex (http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/124.htm) is there a reason why I shouldn't order these rims and pair them to my own hubs and save some coin? I could take them to my local wheel builder...what am I missing? Does anyone have any first hand experience with this?

Cheers!

achurch

11-16-2012, 03:10 PM

I need one 24 hole 70-80 depth tubular rim for a hub I already have...

thegunner

11-16-2012, 03:21 PM

alrighty fellas -- let's get this down on paper (e-paper)

svelocity

11-16-2012, 03:51 PM

I was speaking to a very famous local wheelbuilder here (the best, really), who had just built up a pair of carbon MTB wheels with the rims sourced from Hermes. His opinion was that the rims were good, not fantastic like Enve but good. He rarely minces words in giving his honest opinion to an open listener, and since these weren't my wheels I was open. I also know the guy behind Hermes, and he's been in the business for around three years now, and he intends to stay the course. I know of a couple friends who ran Hermes carbon rims for one road racing season, and they had no complaints whatsoever. I haven't heard glowing praise from anyone really, but more importantly I've not head any bad feedback.

I just noticed that you're from SD, you should pay this guy a visit and see what you think for yourself.

Thanks slidey, that's a good to know about Hermes. I actually have met him at the SD Velodrome. Although at the time I met him I didn't know he was the owner of Hermes. Since then I have talked to him on the phone and via email.

I asked both Hermes and PSIMET for a quote on a track wheelset. Both were 50/56mm but PSIMET would use White Industries hubs and Hermes would use Paul. Both are probably fantastic hubs (I've never used either) but I kind of wanted to choose my own hubs. Moreover, since I already have a few track cogs I don't want to have to spend extra coin on WI's their proprietary cog system. PSIMET actually gave me a better quote but I the shipping and new WI cogs would easily make up the $150 difference.

I asked Hermes if I could go and have a visit. Although he said yes he was sorta reluctant. Anyhow I might just go and badger him anyway.

Long story short, getting my wheels the way I want them (for better or for worse); to see if the costs of importing some rims would be cheaper; and to get the opinions of the board members is why I opened up this thread.

Seems like this thread has taken it's own direction but I like it!!

echelon_john

11-16-2012, 04:15 PM

Happy to be help--if it helps. Just thinking that if anybody needs them built up, it would be more efficient to send the rims here, and I could build for whomever wants, and ship rims out to anybody who doesn't want them built. (for actual shipping cost). I have wheel boxes, so I'm happy to do this, as long as a few folks want wheels built to cover costs.

For hubs, I can do Velocity, Chris King, Shimano, Campy, and others. Happy to build on existing hubs as long as they're in good shape.

Folks are welcome to email me at john@echeloncycleworks.com; I don't want to overstep or turn this into a for sale thread or anything.

Cheers,
John

slidey

11-16-2012, 04:29 PM

I'm almost certain that with Hermes, you can build up your own wheels using your favourite builder - which is exactly how the wheelbuilder I mentioned came into the equation. I'd definitely suggest going the custom option. Good luck!

Thanks slidey, that's a good to know about Hermes. I actually have met him at the SD Velodrome. Although at the time I met him I didn't know he was the owner of Hermes. Since then I have talked to him on the phone and via email.

I asked both Hermes and PSIMET for a quote on a track wheelset. Both were 50/56mm but PSIMET would use White Industries hubs and Hermes would use Paul. Both are probably fantastic hubs (I've never used either) but I kind of wanted to choose my own hubs. Moreover, since I already have a few track cogs I don't want to have to spend extra coin on WI's their proprietary cog system. PSIMET actually gave me a better quote but I the shipping and new WI cogs would easily make up the $150 difference.

I asked Hermes if I could go and have a visit. Although he said yes he was sorta reluctant. Anyhow I might just go and badger him anyway.

Long story short, getting my wheels the way I want them (for better or for worse); to see if the costs of importing some rims would be cheaper; and to get the opinions of the board members is why I opened up this thread.

Seems like this thread has taken it's own direction but I like it!!

AngryScientist

11-16-2012, 05:27 PM

alrighty fellas -- let's get this down on paper (e-paper)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkPoFQCegmUdDZMa0NGa1UtT2JXaXlLTEFRZHVvV Wc#gid=0

for some reason i cant add to that spreadsheet...

thegunner

11-16-2012, 05:58 PM

for some reason i cant add to that spreadsheet...

wow, fixed -- forgot to allow edit rights

UberBike

11-17-2012, 03:09 AM

A lot of the stuff is average but meets the expected quality/performance at a desired pricepoint.
Mercury Cycling is another company that use the same hoops coming from the same factory as many direct from china wheels you see offered online.
Mercury recently signed with Masi to provide wheels for a few of their models.

Ive used Mercury and Stealth an they look to be the exact same supplier.
I have seen a few with some questionable brake tracks that should not have made it past QC but they were quickly exchanged.

Boyd is another company selling china wheels, you see a few of these talked about on slowtwitch.
The Boyd hoops have been getting better over the years. Ive ridden a set from a year ago that looks pretty well made.
They definitely look better then what Masi is ordering from Mercury.

I guess the key would be to figure out exactly which quality of hoops they offer for the price/quantity everyone wants

thegunner

11-17-2012, 11:20 AM

alright fellas -- one last roll call, get your names on that doc and i'll see if i can get us pricing. john is on board for building :)

jpw

11-17-2012, 11:56 AM

:banana:Group Buy!!:banana:

crowd sourced supply

rdparadise

11-17-2012, 11:14 PM

I'm interested, assuming the total build price isn't too ridiculous.

I also recommend checking Alibaba.com Wholesale site where lots of brand name stuff is souced in China, Hong Kong, etc. I have an account and you can get some major goodies at really superb prices.

Let me know what you find out.

Bob

DRietz

11-17-2012, 11:22 PM

I just wanted to show you guys my Chinese-rimmed wheels.

Built them up this summer. Sourced them from Helen Lin's Store on eBay (not the name of the seller, but the store).

They built up quite straight, super round. Absolutely no complaints except that their 1070g weight isn't nearly light enough to make up for the un-aero 25mm rims.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7411/img1937hv.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5706/img1940l.jpg

AngryScientist

11-18-2012, 08:20 AM

those look pretty good dan, what hubs did you go with?

how is the braking?

shovelhd

11-18-2012, 09:31 AM

There is a big difference between Chinese carbon rims and Taiwanese carbon rims. Go with the Taiwanese.

thegunner

11-18-2012, 09:57 AM

alright, last call by 5pm EST before i send out the list -- it's usually ~300 or so for a pair, so i'm guessing we can get a group discount on the bulk shipping.

from there, i would think we'd have to source our own hubs (i was going to go with dati hubs from the bikehubstore, so we could also go group purchase on that)

from there there'd be the additional cost of build (which seemed pretty reasonable from john with shipping included + the cost of spokes. when i priced out my planned hubs + build it came out to just about $530 all said and done. i'll reach out to everyone on the list after this is all confirmed just to see if everyone's still in.

note: not everyone has to get their wheels built by john :) just an option for centralized shipping

illuminaught

11-18-2012, 10:04 AM

There is a big difference between Chinese carbon rims and Taiwanese carbon rims. Go with the Taiwanese.

^ I've heard this and I wan't clarification...

... Why?

Making a sweeping generalization that "Taiwanese" carbon is better is a pretty odd stereotype. Does Gigantex have amazing QC for their OEM stuff and the Chinese companies slack on their QC? Or are you saying that the manufacturing is bad in China?

Didn't the New Thomson stuff get sourced to a Chinese company?

I bought Chinese tubular rims and I found them to be pretty darn impressive... especially for 250 shipped for a pair and they came with a 1 year warranty.
I don't think I'd buy OEM clinchers...

shovelhd

11-18-2012, 10:23 AM

It is based on empirical evidence to date. Believe what you want to believe.

illuminaught

11-18-2012, 10:51 AM

It is based on empirical evidence to date. Believe what you want to believe.

What data?
I really want to know... Please share. I have no interest in "believing" anything... I'd like some actual information.
Thanks,

DRietz

11-18-2012, 12:06 PM

those look pretty good dan, what hubs did you go with?

how is the braking?

Went with hubs from Brandon at BikeHubStore. They're Formulas.

The braking was fine for all 12miles I rode them.

Also, piling onto this Taiwan vs. China ****show, I felt extremely confident with my seller as they were able to send me technical drawings of the rim cross section as well as independent testing results from a company in Switzerland.

kramnnim

11-18-2012, 01:54 PM

I was planning to get wheels from Farsports or light-bicycle, but maybe this would be a better option...?

thegunner

11-18-2012, 02:09 PM

I was planning to get wheels from Farsports or light-bicycle, but maybe this would be a better option...?

might still be from farsports -- i am emailing them + hongfu about pricing :)

illuminaught

11-18-2012, 02:31 PM

I think farsports, xiamen (or whatever it is), light-bicycle, and hongfu are selling the same products...

svelocity

11-18-2012, 06:27 PM

DRietz

11-18-2012, 06:32 PM

What depth rim do you think would be best for an outdoor velodrome? The only reason I haven't put my order on the spreadsheet is I just don't know? 50/50 with 24/28 hubs? 38/50 with 28/28 hubs? Etc...

I would go 50/50 with whatever spoke count you're into.

I mean, theoretically you could go 50 in the front and 25 out back and have practically the same aero benefits with a lighter weight, but that looks absolutely ridiculous.

(I only know that from experience)

teleguy57

11-19-2012, 01:03 PM

Just saw this thread and would be interested in getting info on pricing; I'm intrigued by the 23mm wide rims. Most of the suppliers have a version of the 50mm cyclocross rim, and Yeoleo has a 38mm version as well.

I know from personal experience that the wider rims have a nice impact on clincher tires; it seems that with tubular tires the ride quality doesn't change with the change in rim width but that the aero characteristics may be improved.
You do seem to pay a slight weight penalty to gain roughly 2.5mm in width...

I'm looking to build up a set of tubulars but haven't landed on rim height.

Anyone else wrestling with the rim width question for tubulars?

christian

11-19-2012, 01:12 PM

Anyone else wrestling with the rim width question for tubulars?No. Wide for cross; narrow for 22/25/27.

shovelhd

11-19-2012, 01:49 PM

Also, piling onto this Taiwan vs. China ****show

Exactly. I regret mentioning anything about it. Do your research, look at the actual product, make your decision.

wasfast

11-19-2012, 01:52 PM

Velobuild.com provides group buy options with known bottomline price. Perhaps that's a bit simpler.

thegunner

11-19-2012, 01:54 PM

Velobuild.com provides group buy options with known bottomline price. Perhaps that's a bit simpler.

looked at that -- but the idea of having a local (and well-respected) wheelbuilder doing the builds with my choice on hubs/drillings/spokes is worth the extra $100 or so to me :)

nightfend

11-19-2012, 02:03 PM

The QC is very good with the Gigantex rims. Boyd, Williams, November, and a whole lot of other small carbon wheel builders use the Taiwanese rims and they are very good.

Biggest drawback is they are narrow rims and use the older V-shaped rim shape, which you can really feel in crosswinds (on the 50mm and 58mm rims).

Chinese rim quality is all over the place. Also, be sure and check the brake track on the Chinese rims. To save weight, they will often move the brake track down on the carbon clinchers, and therefore avoid having to add any extra material for braking. Consequently, the braking sucks and many of the short reach calipers won't work correctly with them.

jmoore

11-19-2012, 02:32 PM

I'd be interested but I need some input as to what to get as far as drillings. Weighing 230lbs I'm more concerned with durability than weight.

I'm leaning towards a 28 hole 38mm clincher. Would that work?

echelon_john

11-19-2012, 02:34 PM

38mm or 50mm with 28 spokes, and don't race 'cross on them.

I'd be interested but I need some input as to what to get as far as drillings. Weighing 230lbs I'm more concerned with durability than weight.

I'm leaning towards a 28 hole 38mm clincher. Would that work?

jmoore

11-19-2012, 02:35 PM

38mm or 50mm with 28 spokes, and don't race 'cross on them.

These would be road wheels only.

echelon_john

11-19-2012, 03:07 PM

still go 28h with deep rims for your weight

These would be road wheels only.

illuminaught

11-20-2012, 09:01 AM

Exactly. I regret mentioning anything about it. Do your research, look at the actual product, make your decision.

I really thought this forum was about sharing information. It looks like the group-buy didn't find a problem with Farsports...?

Also, what S**&show?

You clearly are misinterpreting questions for something else. Sorry if I poked at a sensitive subject for you, but you made a claim - and I am interested.

Please just say what you thought was damning evidence of a quality discrepancy, I really want to know. :help:

54ny77

11-20-2012, 09:08 AM

personally, i prefer austro-hungarian rims.

4Rings6Stars

11-20-2012, 09:37 AM

I may have missed it, and I apologize if I did, but do we have an idea of TOTAL cost? I read that the rims will be about $120 or so each, but have we figured out roughly what the total wheelset will cost delivered to the end user's door? I understand that will vary a bit, but assuming we don't have our own hubs...

Rims
Shipping from China
Shipping to wheel builder
Hubs/spokes/nipples
Wheel builder's time
Shipping to end user

Am I missing anything? Just trying to figure out if this will be substantially cheaper than the other options out there and is worth it.

Also, would I be crazy to try these carbon rims on a disc brake equipped, gravel road/d2r2 rig?