Junk from China

[CNY rider]

I'm scratching my head over my recent experience buying kids bikes for the holidays.

I ordered a 16" wheel bike for one of my daughters, from Toys R Us. We're rural, far from a store so I had it shipped.

Started putting it together; the front wheel did not fit in the fork. The dropout tabs had been put on the fork at least 1 cm narrower than they should have been. So zero QC being done there.

I called the manufacturer. The woman on the phone knew what I was talking about immediately. She indicated that this was certainly not a new problem. She gave me the option of returning the whole thing to a retail store for exchange or refund (not really an option for me; see above) or she would ship me a replacement fork. The replacement would be black and not match the girls bike, but I figured a rattle can of pink paint would take care of that.

Replacement fork arrives. The tabs are in the right place but on this one the axle won't go in because the slot is too narrow. Ahh, but I have this nice file, and I take care of that problem in 10 minutes. The wheel now fits in. So I go outside, get it painted up. It turned out nice. Let it dry overnight. Went to install it today:
1. The steerer is too short and doesn't clear the head tube.
2. The stem and wedge don't even fit in the steerer because it's not quite round, and is too narrow.

So what's the business model here? Produce total junk, generate tremendous waste, but still make a profit?
The shipping weight of the bike is 30 pounds. I now have a second complete bike coming, no charge with expedited shipping after calling and complaining to Toys R Us. Who knows if I will be able to assemble a complete bike out of all this junk?

Between shipping that 30 pound brick from China to here, then twice to my home, and the extra fork I got, how can this be a good business model? We can't make these things here, charging a little more up front for a decent product?:confused:

[Grant McLean]

In my many years of bike retail experience, the kids category drove me nuts.
There has to be a market of cyclists who want to buy a decent quality bike
for their kids, something proportionally light and that rides well, but it was
incredibility frustrating.

Classic example, also related to forks, was that Raleigh Canada, (who did
some north american manufacturing with frame sub assemblies welded in
Mexico, and triangles joined together in Quebec) For years they built
forks with zero rake. None. A straight shot from hub to steerer tube.
Wonder what that rides like? Now picture it on a bike for a 6 year old.

This stuff is just a commodity for the manufacturers. And it shows.

-g

[Ken Robb]

most buyers of kids bikes don't ride bikes so they can't judge quality. The kids want the bike with the coolest paint job.

The buyer figures the bikes all look alike except the paint and since the bike will soon be out-grown price is the deciding factor.

The manufacturers don't believe that they can sell quality to most buyers of kids' bikes if it required a higher price.

I have seen my LBS staff try to explain why their kids' bikes cost $219 when Toys R Us has them for half that and it is usually a tough fight.

[malcolm]

I got my kids bikes from the local specialized dealer and they seemed decent. I can tell you from changing tubes they are nothing special, but have been durable and gotten the job done. At least on the surface the seem a step up from the wal-mart and probably toys r us stuff and I don't think much more expensive.

[AngryScientist]

don't tell anyone, but i think i got a hold of the "blueprints" that toys-r-us sent over to china. i think they sent a copy of this over there, and said "build us 5,000 of these".

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh91qcdxmb1qgheg4o1_500.jpg

[johnmdesigner]

You're not buying her a Serotta? Shocking!

[bart998]

Maybe a niche market for an enterprising custom builder? I always bought my kids Schwinn bikes when they were small until the real Schwinn died. They were heavy but everything worked well. I bought my youngest daughter a chinese made cruiser a few years back and had to dust-off my metal working skills to get the fenders to fit. Ended up replacing the v-brakes all together because they were so junky they were unsafe.

[William]

So what's the business model here?

It's called "Let the customer QC the product".

They order large quantities of product from China. It gets put in a container and takes the slow boat here. Once here they find the problems. The mfr in China may offer to refund some $$ (but your still stuck with the defective product), but more often than not will offer to add product on the next shipment. Since it's shipped on the slow boat you're stuck with it. So, you either send nothing out and wait, or ship out what you have and deal with customer issues as they pop up since it buys time for the next shipment of product to arrive. You hope the next shipment is good so you can deal with the QC issues. Problem is the product will likely still have the same issues (or different ones) and you will have to start to cannibalize inventory to satisfy the QC issues, complain to China, and hope the next shipment is corrected (which it likely won't be) and the fuster cluck downward spiral continues...

:crap:






William

[merlincustom1]

You get what you pay for.

[PQJ]

You get what you pay for.

This. Our seven year old has gone through a number of bikes as she has grown. They were all extremely (extremely extremely) heavy for a kid, and pretty crappy too. Most recently, we purchased a Specialized Hotrock. It is pricey and took some mental wrangling to justfy the price relative to the competition, but as I look at its construction and watch her ride it, I have to say it's worth it.

[William]

This. Our seven year old has gone through a number of bikes as she has grown. They were all extremely (extremely extremely) heavy for a kid, and pretty crappy too. Most recently, we purchased a Specialized Hotrock. It is pricey and took some mental wrangling to justfy the price relative to the competition, but as I look at its construction and watch her ride it, I have to say it's worth it.

We went this route too. It served her well until she outgrew it.



William

[DRZRM]

I agree, but there is not much of an option to pay more for higher qualiy...that said, we got a Specialized Hotrock 16" wheeled bike for my son at Belmont Wheelworks, and it was sized and put together by someone who builds bikes for a living. Still rediculously heavy, but all the parts fit together. I picked Specialized over Trek because the Trek has several pounds of "fenders" "engine covers" and other crap I'd just need to take off. I figure I should buy bikes at least made by bike companies, not by Dora the Explorer. Slight price premium over Toys R Us, but it seems worth it, especially given what I can justify for my own bike "needs."

I'd certainly appreciate an option of a lighter bike though, it is rediculously that my 4 year old's bike weighs more than mine.


You get what you pay for.

[AngryScientist]

re: heavy kids bikes

I think its OK if a kids bike is heavy if that translates to durability. we baby (relatively) our own bikes. when i think of a kids bike, i have a mental picture of a kiddo barreling down the driveway, jumping off the bike and letting it skid sideways behind him. dropped dinged dented, all of the above. kids bikes really have to be built pretty tough not to fall apart, i would think.

[merlincustom1]

I'd certainly appreciate an option of a lighter bike though, it is rediculously that my 4 year old's bike weighs more than mine.

Yeah, but your 4 year old weighs less than you, so it all evens out. Seriously, weight isn't even a concern for a kid's bike. Better to be durable.

[DreaminJohn]

Seriously, weight isn't even a concern for a kid's bike. Better to be durable.

I have to disagree somewhat. I have picked a young girl off the ground because her heavy kids' bike tipped over at slow speed.

[wombatspeed]

about weight not mattering for kids bikes. My younger daughter just turned 5. We did a lot of singletrack riding this summer and she did a few MTB and Cyclocross races on her light Intense BMX race bike (about 14 pounds). She really enjoys riding it - even up hills that I am always surprised she gets up... And she can proudly carry it over the CX barriers.

We also have an inherited gas-pipe steel Giant bike (about 27 pounds) which she rides around town on sometimes (it has a harder gear so she can go faster on the flats). But she can barely make it up the smallest inclines and certainly can't lift this tank. Guess which one she considers to be her fun bike...

I could tell similar stories about her older sister.

Bottomline is that I have come to appreciate the difference a nice, light bike can make for a kid especially if they like to go MTBing and/or racing and/or ride a LOT. Light bikes cost a hell of a lot more. Of course, resale value is much better, too. Net cost often isn't that much more.

[victoryfactory]

Between shipping that 30 pound brick from China to here, then twice to my home, and the extra fork I got, how can this be a good business model? We can't make these things here, charging a little more up front for a decent product?:confused:

I don't know, but that's definitely the way it's done. I bought a power washer
for around 100 bucks. It was defective. Called the up and they immediately sent
another one. They didn't even want the bad one back. The second was also
defective (Different reason) so they sent another one which works fine
and I have two more for parts.
The secret seems to be that these things cost 27 bucks to make and they sell
them for 100. It's a numbers game
VF

[aaronv]

A decent BMX bike is probably perfect. In the early 80s these were around $150+.
We road this everywhere as kids, even up hills. Hill too steep? Walk up it.
We also ghost road them down hills too, in addition to all sorts of abuse that kids get up to without responsible adults telling them not to.
Also no shifting so no problems. The other kids with 10-speeds (what we called them) had all sorts of shifting troubles usually and the bikes in general did not wear well.

[bobswire]

DIY

http://i50.tinypic.com/dqm4xk.jpg

Four plus years later still going strong with for his younger brother.

[William]

Now that's cool!:cool:




William

[malcolm]

DIY

http://i50.tinypic.com/dqm4xk.jpg

Four plus years later still going strong with for his younger brother.

both of my kids learned to ride bikes on one or a version of one of these. They are awesome, they learn to ride pushing the when a pedal bike comes along they only need to learn to pedal, no crashing and crying.

[CNY rider]

Yep mine learned on a Specialized balance bike.
That thing is pretty good quality.
The bikes I just bought, total junk.
In a couple of years, hopefully they don't care about Dora and Hello Kitty any more, and we get something nice.

In the meantime still puzzled how you can ship raw materials to China, pay people to do some work to fashion the bike, pack it up, ship it here, then throw a bunch away 'cause it's total junk and still make money.

[AngryScientist]

sorry for thread drift: how old were the kids when they started with the balance bike???

[malcolm]

mine started around 3 best I can remember maybe a little earlier. They were by far the youngest in our neighborhood riding regular bikes and never had training wheels. I can't begin to recommend them enough. It makes the transition to a regular bike painless.

I've had friends just take the bottom bracket out of a regular bike to make a push bike and that will work but not as well because part of them learning to ride the push bike is that the handlebars only turn just a little so they don't have to deal with wheel flop and the subsequent crash. My son would scare the crap out of you bombing down the hill and turning into the drive way at warp speed on his. He only wound up in the hedges a few times.

[christian]

mine started around 3 best I can remember maybe a little earlier. They were by far the youngest in our neighborhood riding regular bikes and never had training wheels. I can't begin to recommend them enough. It makes the transition to a regular bike painless. My son started riding his balance bike around 3 and a half - in March, maybe. I got a used Kokua (Likeabike) Jumper and can't recommend it highly enough - super light and Schwalbe Big Apples (12"). A few weeks ago, he said he wanted to try his pedal bike, so I brought it up to the end of the cul de sac and said, "Here you go." He pushed off twice with his feet, put his feet on the pedals and rode away. Last weekend, he rode >1 mile in the local park. With ~24" gearing, that's a lot of pedal revolutions.

In short, balance bikes are awesome; my only fear is that they are robbing us of the "teaching your kid to ride" stories. My teaching my son to ride a bicycle consisted of me sitting on a fire hydrant and saying things like, "Look where you're going, Alberto Contador," while he rode around.

[rice rocket]

how can this be a good business model? We can't make these things here, charging a little more up front for a decent product?:confused:

It's not. It does cost them a lot, they just haven't figured it out yet.

Good companies who leverage the low cost of labor in China successfully have a field of QC engineers on site.

[William]

Good companies who leverage the low cost of labor in China successfully have a field of QC engineers on site.

That's how it works. Many times the only way it works well.




William

[CNY rider]

sorry for thread drift: how old were the kids when they started with the balance bike???

We got it for the 4 year old twins but now we can't keep the 2 year old off of it.
Twins learned to ride in no time.
Two year old will be on her own next spring at the rate she's going.
By the time yours is ready I will pass on the balance bike to you.

[AngryScientist]

thanks guys, pretty exciting stuff, watching young ones take off on a bike, for sure.

[Fixed]

I still miss my old schwinn stingray
Cheers

[Louis]

My teaching my son to ride a bicycle consisted of me sitting on a fire hydrant and saying things like, "Look where you're going, Alberto Contador," while he rode around.

That's quite a big name to live up to when he's older.

Good thing you didn't name him "Lance."

[93legendti]

I didn't buy my kids' bikes at a toy store, because I didn't want to buy them junky toy bikes. I've bought my kids Treks and the last bike i bought for one of them was a Performance Starling with 20" wheels and my daughter loves it so much, she won't give it up, even thou she needs to go up to 24" wheels.

The Treks all held up great and so has the Starling. Ymmv.