carbon frame making video, derosa

[shaq-d]

from road bike review forums.. link was so good..i'm sure u guys will enjoy it if u haven't already seen it...

http://www.cyclingtime.com/modules/movie/index.php/derosa_king_making200506.html

and pinarello

http://www.cyclingtime.com/modules/movie/index.php/pinarello200508.html

[dbrk]

You have to hand it to DeRosa for letting this film be made. It sort of reminds me of that old Colnago film of them brazing up bikes on this moving contraption that stopped at an auto-brazer before turning to the human hand, all done on a certain schedule. Here we see the hand work of gluing up carbon but, well, it's glue! Call me oldschool or whatever, but this isn't how Goodrich, Sachs, or Kirk do it, though I suppose I mean not to romance the craft too much nor diminish what DeRosa or other carbon builders are doing...no, not at all, but it's a whole new world of resins and gook rather then flux, penny nails (or whatever tacks), and brazing materials. I think most builders would rather not show you the down and dirty but here one of the DeRosas explains the process with a certain kind of candor, lets it appear for all to see, and says that they can make a total of 7,000 quality frames in all materials each year. Production is waaaay different than one at a time or one guy or, say, a tenth as much (or less).

Well, kudos to DeRosa for letting us in. I have not much interest in these new carbon frames (from DeRosa or nearly anyone else unless we can get past pure race designs, which we will), well, at least in comparison to metals, but DeRosa's lugged steel NeoPrimato was still shown front and center with pride, without excuses, with loving care and beautiful presentation at Interbike. It was, oh, about a zillion times more interesting to me than wavvy tubes or even the King or Protos, et.al. They know the future of production bikes is not lugged steel but it was a pleasure to see them embrace the old and the new (and in my view, shamelessly so, and good'on'em for it).

dbrk

[david]

dbrk,

i, too, am fond of steel and, especially, lugged steel. and i've always had a thing for derosas. the neo primato has caught my eye on more than one occassion. but i've balked at buying one because i've often wondered who is actually building these frames.

since the neo primato seems fairly low on the totem pole in derosa's lineup, i've wondered if they're putting their best people on it. and since they're making 7000 frames a year, how many different people do they have brazing these frames? i have to assume several and, if so, the quality must vary.

i'm sure with a neo primato that you're getting a derosa in geometry and, perhaps, spirit. but what about craftsmanship?

love to hear your thoughts.

thanks

[dbrk]

I spoke to with one of the DeRosa brothers about the Neo Primato while at Interbike. He told me a few interesting things, all of which he said with real conviction. First, that there are no more than 15 people who work full time for the company. Next, that all of their bikes are built in the same factory, which is now carefully parsed out for different kinds of production. The NeoPrimato is in the hands of the oldest DeRosa builders because, well, it's brazed and they do it best (and likely fastest).

While paint can conceal a multitude of sins and the "quality" of a bike build is one of those things, I am very, very happy with the way my two DeRosa NeoPrimatos ride. The Molteni bike has the Mizuno fork; the Faema bike has the newest oldstyle steel fork with a debossed crown. The ride, like I said, is really wonderful. If all "race" bikes had DeRosa geometries, well, that would be fine by me.

Allow me to wax a minute on lugged steel bike builds. Lots of bikes that are actually made, well, nearly like crap, ride GREAT! (Gosh, the things I have seen...) Some famous bikes and great riders did not even have the tubes mitered. Without paint you see more but even then it can be very difficult to tell the quality of the penetration of brazing, how the tubes were affected by heat, and a slew of other issues. Still, a bike doesn't have to be made brilliantly to ride just fine. When you move into the world of one man shops and very attentive craft, you still get a mixed bag of quality. I should not like to name names but not all one man shops are as good as some production bikes. That said, the best of the one man shops or very, very small operations, like Sachs, Goodrich, Kirk, Weigle, and Kellogg, these bikes have taken lugged steel to entirely different planes of quality. These guys have brought reality to the romance of frame building that the oldschool cannot even remotely approach. Sure, there are a few who have built to great, great quality (Nagasawa, Confente likely too) but these bikes are so much better made than even the best production shops (Toyo comes to mind...), that it's not even remotely close. And among one man shops there is a fair degree of difference in quality. This level of craft has inspired others whose work is at comparable levels: Sacha White, Nic Schmidt, and other younger generation builders have risen to the mark. There are guys most have never heard of who can build FANTASTIC frames, like Mark Bulgier or Martin Tweedy, the list actually is quite long.

One doesn't need a bike built to this level of exacting care for it to be a perfectly nice bike. I would not compare the DeRosas to these American builders in quality, since they are too not even close. But the DeRosas are really swell bikes and once you know what you are getting into, whether it be the topmost shelf, like SGKWK, or production, then you rest easy and know where the money goes as does the ride.

dbrk

[LegendRider]

Well, I just watched the DeRosa video and it was certainly eye-opening. My first "good bike" was a Ferrari-red DeRosa SLX. I regret to this day ever selling it and I still have a soft spot for DeRosas (a red and white NeoPrimato would make me very happy!).

It seems like the tubing manufacturer(s) should get as much credit as DeRosa for the bike. How hard is it to spec some tubes and glue them together??? With proper supervision I could build my own King (or so it appears). It seems like the hard work is the engineering and manufacturing of the tubes!

Are any glued-together carbon bikes worth the kind of money DeRosa and others get for them? I just ordered a Parlee Z1x (and I've owned a Calfee) - my hope is it require more skill and craftsmanship to make, otherwise, I will have wasted a lot of money!

[e-RICHIE]

wow. WOW!

i just saw it. though brevity is my m.o.
here, this time i am truly speechless.

i think i'll stew on this for a few and mebbe
post later - yeah, later - after i do a 'cross ride.

[Too Tall]

You are sort of blown away by the way he wields that butter knife too?

[Johny]

The DeRosa guy said it is very important to use Italian-hand-made butter knife to ensure the quality...

P.S. It is later confirmed by the Pinarello sales manager that they make the knife for DeRosa, again, by hand.

[nicrump]

wow. WOW!

i just saw it. though brevity is my m.o.
here, this time i am truly speechless.

i think i'll stew on this for a few and mebbe
post later - yeah, later - after i do a 'cross ride.

I think I know where you are going. Please don’t dump all carbon building into your thoughts on this example of PVC pipe assembly.

[e-RICHIE]

I think I know where you are going. Please don’t dump all carbon building into your thoughts on this example of PVC pipe assembly.


you are mistaken wrt to where i am going.
i went to good schools.
breeding, and all that stuff...

[divve]

....they finally found a useful purpose for the black entity of the X-Files.

[sspielman]

As much as I appreciate the craftsmanship of the best handmade lugged steel frames, I have to admit that the nicer modern carbon fiber ones certainly do their job well.....

[ada@prorider.or]

Are any glued-together carbon bikes worth the kind of money DeRosa and others get for them? I just ordered a Parlee Z1x (and I've owned a Calfee) - my hope is it require more skill and craftsmanship to make, otherwise, I will have wasted a lot of money!

meaby now you understand my remarks about the frame's made and the money charged for it
and we do not talk about the carbon used

i have seen bike like this construction explode on the world's in france in 5 piece

my stumic turns around if i seen this and even that they say here you see costum build
we have no secret's
we call this LEGO glue champions

sorry could not hold my selve back

if yoou want to have the strenght of the bike the fibers must run all the way tru
no all the strenght is in the glue what is less the the carbon you can imagine

i better watch he has a big knive italian way

[sspielman]

It seems to me that there has been a response to the popularity of carbon frames by the major tubing manufacturers. They are offering carbon tubes and related items so that their traditional clientele-small builders- can participate in the latest trend. Instead of buying aluminum or steel tubes and welding them up, the tubes are carbon and are glued together. The question is if the final product is really a quality one, and what value-added service is there for an otherwise great artisan to do the gluing. Most of the Italian builders are offering frames constructed this way...out of necessity for survival as much as anything. I think of a carbon frame much more as an industrial product than a craftsman article....although I would appreciate if it had some craftsman elements.

[bluesea]

Thanks for the links. A few points:

The "glue" being used is epoxy, properly thickened for a certain amount of gap filling properties that would be needed to facilitate the alignment process. These are sound and long proven techniques. I have a 22# kayak that has been similarly glued together (top, bottom) that has survived 2 seasons of training and racing, including 2 Molokai channel races.

I guess for me, for my part, the thing that I gleaned most from the vid is the complete lack of soul. That frame as it comes from the factory is little more than a mechanical device--a potentially desirable and functional device to be sure, but one that has no soul other than that in which its new owner can bestow. But then again, so is my steel Colnago, heh.

What we see here is the worker being alienated from the fruits of his labor, the creative aspects of his...oops wrong forum. :banana:

[ada@prorider.or]

Thanks for the links. A few points:

The "glue" being used is epoxy, properly thickened for a certain amount of gap filling properties that would be needed to facilitate the alignment process. These are sound and long proven techniques. I have a 22# kayak that has been similarly glued together (top, bottom) that has survived 2 seasons of training and racing, including 2 Molokai channel races.
:banana:

i agree the glue is a sound process
but i hope you still think that if you decending
100km from tourmalet
and suddenly bang trough temp change from the top -5
and to the valley other side + 45 the glue could not hold the part also caused by the vibrations and tension
and hard braking the front head tube wich was only glued broke way leaving you with only the backside glue d
you have to brake because you are close to a 180 harpin and a very hard rock
leaving you with the frame in to part's
o well the glue is was not on the fabrication specs was a little poluted becuase the the manufactured did not check the glue on it would reach it certified specs
they trusted the glue compagny to do that
but they did not do that after words they discover that a certain additive was not reaching it specs and found the problem
they have found the solution but in the meantime you are judt braking in the mountain's

just a example what really happens of wich i know from a bike manufacture

but why aerospace spec's?? it only a bike
becuase we are working with aerospace technic why should we also work like that
just a simple question to those people !?


o well i have a kayak its also glued still flooting

[ada@prorider.or]

i agree the glue is a sound processbut i hope you still think that if you decending
100km/h from tourmalet
and suddenly bang trough temp change from the top -5 degrees
and to the valley other side + 45 degrees the glue could not hold the part also caused by the vibrations and tension
and hard braking the front head tube wich was only glued broke way leaving you with only the backside glue d
you have to brake because you are close to a 180 harpin and a very hard rock
leaving you with the frame in to part's
o well the glue is was not on the fabrication specs was a little poluted becuase the the manufactured did not check the glue on it would reach it certified specs
they trusted the glue compagny to do that
but they did not do that after words they discover that a certain additive was not reaching it specs and found the problem
they have found the solution but in the meantime you are judt braking in the mountain's

just a example what really happens of wich i know from a bike manufacture

but why aerospace spec's?? it only a bike
becuase we are working with aerospace technic why should we also work like that
just a simple question to those people !?


o well i have a kayak its also glued still flooting !!

[bluesea]

i agree the glue is a sound process
but i hope you still think that if you decending
100km from tourmalet
and suddenly bang trough temp change from the top -5
and to the valley other side + 45 the glue could not hold the part also caused by the vibrations and tension
and hard braking the front head tube wich was only glued broke way leaving you with only the backside glue d
you have to brake because you are close to a 180 harpin and a very hard rock
leaving you with the frame in to part's
o well the glue is was not on the fabrication specs was a little poluted becuase the the manufactured did not check the glue on it would reach it certified specs
they trusted the glue compagny to do that
but they did not do that after words they discover that a certain additive was not reaching it specs and found the problem
they have found the solution but in the meantime you are judt braking in the mountain's

just a example what really happens of wich i know from a bike manufacture

but why aerospace spec's?? it only a bike
becuase we are working with aerospace technic why should we also work like that
just a simple question to those people !?


o well i have a kayak its also glued still flooting

Well obviously its a frame built with production techniques in mind. Most of your examples are QC issues. In terms of temp changes after the epoxy has cured, that should not have any effect. Epoxies can be formulated to cure at certain temperatures, but once epoxy is cured, its cured. Note that my own frame is steel, and I have seen pics of a broken C-50 that appeared to not have been glued properly at the tube/lug junction. QC is a can of worms that can affect all material. I am
totally on the same page with you about confidence in high speed descents, and to tell the truth, I tried very very hard to find a properly sized Prescia fork for my frame, but to no avail.

[Andreu]

made about the temperature change. -5 to 45ºC difference is a big change and could induce a significant amount of stress. Cyclic changes in temperature are generally bad news for chemical structures & molecular networks etc. (and a nightmare if there is water around).
A

[ada@prorider.or]

In terms of temp changes after the epoxy has cured, that should not have any effect. Epoxies can be formulated to cure at certain temperatures, but once epoxy is cured, its cured..

we talking about glue here not the epoxy of the resin system

so if i read you correctly that not part can detach it selve when its cured (curing here was 130 degrees quote de rosa)
if you think thaa t i can asure you that not the case
due to vibrance and temp changes in side tube and out side and the tension applied on the frame and not the proper spec ´s and so on

remind that temp changes and vibrance can couse enormous force´s

take a simpel thing as ice cracking a ship
it simple water but the force ´s are huge

and so on ............

[bluesea]

made about the temperature change. -5 to 45ºC difference is a big change and could induce a significant amount of stress. Cyclic changes in temperature are generally bad news for chemical structures & molecular networks etc. (and a nightmare if there is water around).
A

One thing to keep in mind is that epoxy is not only used as a glue, but also as the matrix for carbon fiber construction (ie, tubes etc). Somehow, I do not believe that the King or Ottrot or what have you is going to be affected by whatever Alpine climb and descent it gets subjected to.

[bluesea]

we talking about glue here not the epoxy of the resin system

so if i read you correctly that not part can detach it selve when its cured (curing here was 130 degrees quote de rosa)
if you think thaa t i can asure you that not the case
due to vibrance and temp changes in side tube and out side and the tension applied on the frame and not the proper spec ´s and so on

remind that temp changes and vibrance can couse enormous force´s

take a simpel thing as ice cracking a ship
it simple water but the force ´s are huge

and so on ............

I'm not quite following you here. I'm not an engineer, but was heavily involved in competitive sailing when state-of-the-art went carbon epoxy. Have worked with it to some degree. As I said above, the techniques are well proven and what I'm seeing in the vid, is very very basic technology--old technology. If the joint is properly glued and properly engineered, it should not fail at the joint unless it was designed to do so. I'm not advocating epoxy, but I think it is a more than valid material for bike frames and it is up to the individual to balance the beams based on their own needs, research, and interests.

[ada@prorider.or]

. I'm not advocating epoxy, but I think it is a more than valid material for bike frames and it is up to the individual to balance the beams based on their own needs, research, and interests.

well i agree to a certain point
but what i wanted to say is that if only one thing is not 100% and becuase there is no safety build in
like mechanicly secure the joint you can only hope that you can rely on the glue
and that i was saying that you cannot
in those constructions always make sure you have a double security if something is happening
i really hope that it never happens
but i know of what personly seen myselve that it happens
despite you have the best carbon on the glue in the world
there is always lives depanding on it!
i will try to make a simpel visual jpg where i show this problem
but you have to give me some time to do so
it not only simple beams glued together but also flex and vibration heat humidity in and out , stress ......


what I also wonderd is they did not tell on the movie but i think they want to give the impresion that its a cleanroom (this for temp and humidity control)
then when they finished they leave that room
expose the frame to humidity and other temp in other room
to go to the oven
give 's me something to think or they know this step

[zap]

made about the temperature change. -5 to 45ºC difference is a big change and could induce a significant amount of stress. Cyclic changes in temperature are generally bad news for chemical structures & molecular networks etc. (and a nightmare if there is water around).
A


We did some work several years ago to meet US DoD requirements for one of the products we sold. DoD had some vibration and temperature change (I think it was 120F to -75F in 5 minutes) requirements that was pretty darn tough to meet. We worked with our epoxy supplier, and got the epoxy to work, but never got the project off the ground after several different types of 3/4" laminated glass substrates kept shearing (epoxy pulling the glass apart).

After years of working with epoxy and steel structures, I have plenty of respect for epoxy. But following proper mixing and cleaning procedures is very important.

By the way, epoxy isn't exactly cheap either.

[ada@prorider.or]

By the way, epoxy isn't exactly cheap either.

its not cheap but comparing the amount of what people charge for the frame its peanuts
for the amount they use!
well let say 2$

[1centaur]

What is bike soul? Is it the loving, long-lived, experienced, thoughtful effort of a frame builder to provide ride and aesthetic qualities that cycling afficionados can love?

If so, then once a frame builder has figured out what qualities he (are there no female framebuilders in the entire world?) wishes to impart and it comes down to repeated construction of that conclusion, what steps are necessary to impart soul to each frame?

Is it necessary to mine the iron ore and convert it to steel tubes, or is buying outside tubes acceptable? Must the tubes be specced to the builder's requirements, or can stock tubes be acceptable? When joining the tubes, are lugging, brazing, welding, gluing in a precise and planned way equally acceptable ways to join tubes, or are only some of those joining methods soulful? How about riveting or bolting?

Must a builder build each frame himself, or can he have others do the task to his standards? If the same geometry "magic" and tube/join design soul are imparted in each build, are frames joined by other than the originator soulful?

I ask all these questions because it seems to me that Craig Calfee, Nick Crumpton and Bob Parlee have all the requirements for soulful frames I laid out above, except that Craig and Bob don't join their own tubes and they don't weld/braze/lug/rivet/bolt because carbon fiber does not need that method of joining, which outside of the bike world would be viewed as pretty industrial ways to deal with metal tubes.

Using my criteria, does a Trek SSSSLxx have soul, or a Ridley Damocles? No, anything made on a production line geared to over 1,000(?) frames a year does not have soul because it's all about intellectual process, not emotion, not dream fulfillment.

Yes it's a changing world, but either great carbon fiber frames can have soul, or metal frames never had any.

[bluesea]

For me it comes from one guy building a frame from start to finish with skill, knowledge, and pride. There is an element of art...its a Jungian thing...

[e-RICHIE]

What is bike soul? <cut> what steps are necessary to impart soul to each frame?


here we go again. (bananas).
i haven't really thought this through since it is happy
hour and i want to re-read peter's wonderful lug article
in vbq, but i think the intangibles may come from the
often unspoken mission statement of the maker. as is
regularly the case in the bike industry, products are
market driven. do the derosas of the world embrace
the cf frame because they believe it is the best thing
since frank sinatra, or do they hop on a bus that may
leave without them if they ponder for too long trading
their heritage for some unit sales. the family business
is a wonderful thing (http://www.henokiens.com/index_gb.php).
if you decide to leave the past behind just for the sake of
commerce, what is left? a neo-primato?

[shinomaster]

You say you have not more than a little interested in carbon frames yet you showed us your Parlee built Tournesol with great pride. Why are some so much better than others?

[david]

very thoughtful.

[jerk]

here we go again. (bananas).
i haven't really thought this through since it is happy
hour and i want to re-read peter's wonderful lug article
in vbq, but i think the intangibles may come from the
often unspoken mission statement of the maker. as is
regularly the case in the bike industry, products are
market driven. do the derosas of the world embrace
the cf frame because they believe it is the best thing
since frank sinatra, or do they hop on a bus that may
leave without them if they ponder for too long trading
their heritage for some unit sales. the family business
is a wonderful thing (http://www.henokiens.com/index_gb.php).
if you decide to leave the past behind just for the sake of
commerce, what is left? a neo-primato?

e-richie,

the best thing since frank sinatra was buster poindexter. he was the carbon fiber of crooning.

jerk

[dbrk]

You say you have not more than a little interested in carbon frames yet you showed us your Parlee built Tournesol with great pride. Why are some so much better than others?

I have tried to be careful not to lump all new carbon bikes into one category, a mistake as obvious as equating all lugged steel. So if I have ever given such an impression then I hope to make amends. It is also true that I have always expressed my preference for the ride of metal to carbon, perhaps because I always will. I love lugs, steel lugged bikes, and I like it too when carbon bikes have lugs because, well, they remind me of steel. It's a joining method with plenty of history and I don't pretend to have the slightest opinion about how such methods provide advantages in carbon. I also think that certain carbon bikes are great riders, as any Parlee (or Crumpton or Meivici Serotta, undoubtedly, though I've no experience with them) will make clear when you ride one; they are pretty darn swell. To answer Shino's question: our carbon Tournesol tweaks the geometry to more cyclotourisme-style riding (not much different than race bikes of yore, in certain ways, and not much like modern race bikes in significant ways) and reduces bar/saddle drop with a pretty well thought out notion of how the bikes should handle. I think the material is not as vital as the process of production, design, and execution. We chose carbon because it is an excellent material given certain goals and because Parlee, like some others, really builds beautiful bikes.

I think Richie captured my feelings about the value of craft just perfectly. I have no illusions, for example, about the DeRosa NeoPrimato, only that it _is_ what is left of the soul of the old company's craft, and RS got that right too. Watching the DeRosa and Pinarello folks glue bikes together was, I dunno, not so inspiring. Nothign like seeing a hunk of metal, as I have seen, turn into a beautiful, handcrafted lug in the hands of Sachs, Goodrich, Kirk, and the masters of steelcraft.

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

I think the material is not as vital as the process of production, design, and execution.


yeah what dbrk said.

[zap]

its not cheap but comparing the amount of what people charge for the frame its peanuts
for the amount they use!
well let say 2$

I'm sure your right. Bike frames and parts only use grams of this stuff vs pounds or kg's.

[cpg]

Like dbrk said earlier, at least DeRosa builds everything in house. Unlike Colnago that's got it's carbon being made by some carbon shop in Italy (probably a good move though) while it's steel and aluminum are being made by Giant. What's that all about? It's not like Ernesto's bikes have EVER been price point bikes where every penny is critical. I can't get too excited about DeRosa's carbon stuff but I applaud them for offering level top tubes along with there sloping models. Colnago has always been a much larger company than DeRosa and I don't fault them for that but the whole outsourcing thing seems to be driven mostly by greed.

Curt

[bluesea]

Like dbrk said earlier, at least DeRosa builds everything in house. Unlike Colnago that's got it's carbon being made by some carbon shop in Italy (probably a good move though) while it's steel and aluminum are being made by Giant. What's that all about? It's not like Ernesto's bikes have EVER been price point bikes where every penny is critical. I can't get too excited about DeRosa's carbon stuff but I applaud them for offering level top tubes along with there sloping models. Colnago has always been a much larger company than DeRosa and I don't fault them for that but the whole outsourcing thing seems to be driven mostly by greed.

Curt

The derosa tubes are Mizuno, not in house. As for Ernesto, he's been a factory production type of guy from day -1. There's a very interesting interview with him somewhere on the web where he talks about it. Good reading. I'd say that as mediocre as my frame may be built, I'd like to think that its geometry has the benefit of the man's considerable experience. Yeah, I guess there can be some mojo found even in a production line Colnago.

[cpg]

Most don't make their own tubes so I don't see the relevance. Agreed, you can find mojo anywhere. Colnago has always made fine bikes. Never alluded otherwise. But Colnago prior to the bike boom was a small company and made really fine refined frames. They cashed in on the bike boom, grew the company in a big way and made the frames good enough. The main point is that they made them. Not someone else. Now they hardly make anything. That's what I was pointing out. Regarding geometry, what makes Colnagos different? I don't see it.

Curt

[bluesea]

Most don't make their own tubes so I don't see the relevance. Agreed, you can find mojo anywhere. Colnago has always made fine bikes. Never alluded otherwise. But Colnago prior to the bike boom was a small company and made really fine refined frames. They cashed in on the bike boom, grew the company in a big way and made the frames good enough. The main point is that they made them. Not someone else. Now they hardly make anything. That's what I was pointing out. Regarding geometry, what makes Colnagos different? I don't see it.

Curt

[shrugs]Yeah, you're right. I thought in-house, meant in-house, that's what I was responding to. Steel was one thing, but I thought carbon might be a little different, like with Cyfac. Maybe they don't do in-house either.

Regarding geometry, what makes Colnagos different? I don't see it.

Ummm, never mind.

[sspielman]

... but the whole outsourcing thing seems to be driven mostly by greed.

Curt

Now there is a quote for the day...
When a company attempts to position itself at a high market level based on its name recognition, and then decides that they no longer can be bothered to actually make their own products any more, I see no reason for them to exist. With outsourcing being all the rage, it is occurring in all fields. I understand that Stickley is moving some (eventually all?) furniture production to Vietnam. It is interesting because the earliest incarnations of the Stickley company were founded in the Arts and Crafts movement whose tenets included the valuing of producing high quality products through indiginous hand labor......

[Johny]

...but the whole outsourcing thing seems to be driven mostly by greed.

Curt

How about Rivendell's new Bleriot? Are they also made by Giant?

[Too Tall]

SSpielman - I hear yah however think the Colonagos et al are more like Eames vision of "good design for minimal cost through the use of prefabricated standardized parts..." A good quote from the man: "What...works is better than what looks good," Ray said. " The looks good can change, but what works, works."

[CNote]

The insinuation that any business decision Rivendell has ever made might be motivated by greed is comical.

[sspielman]

A little while ago, I figured out who Too Tall was. MANY years ago when I was 15, I was 1 year into being a bike nut. To support my habit, I worked at a drug store. One summer, a giant college student-whose parents had a weekend house in the area-also worked there for the summer. Said college student also was a bike nut as was the store manager (following this?). Obviously, Too Tall was the college student. I do remember goig to do a century ride in South Jersey with these guys.....and Too Tall was taken down by some bad bike handling, but he did a somersault and continued the ride with only minor road rash. I think that I recall that he had a Hetchins. His Hetchins stood out because it was a beautifully understated racing model (as opposed to the highly adorned touring models). I think that is about the limit of my recollection. Isn't this Forum cool?

[LegendRider]

The insinuation that any business decision Rivendell has ever made might be motivated by greed is comical.

I don't think he was insinuating Rivendell is motivated by greed. However, there are cases where outsourcing is a legitimate business decision not aimed at hurting American workers for an executive's personal gain (although there is plenty of that as well). In short, it's incorrect to label all outsourcing as bad.

[Johny]

I don't think he was insinuating Rivendell is motivated by greed. However, there are cases where outsourcing is a legitimate business decision not aimed at hurting American workers for an executive's personal gain (although there is plenty of that as well). In short, it's incorrect to label all outsourcing as bad.

That's wisdom. :)

[Birddog]

but the whole outsourcing thing seems to be driven mostly by greed

Perhaps you're right on this particular issue (bike building), but I think greed is often mistaken for profit. A business has to make profits to exist. I am a one man shop in another craft, and I have to mix simple assembly (well sometimes not so simple, but still it's assembly) with handmade craftsmanship to exist. I look for ways to improve my product and maintain profits. If that means incorporating pre-built components then that's the way I go, as long as there is no significant drop in quality. My customers are MOR with some reaching the lower levels of the "high end". I choose this market, there is more opportunity there, this keeps the bills paid, and my kids in college. I enjoy what I do most of the time, occasionally it's a bit boring, but then another job comes along with different challenges. The rewards come when the job is finished, and not the least of these rewards is some profit. I definitely enjoy the verbal rewards too, but without profit, they are pretty hollow. I can't eat the potitive adjectives and adverbs.

I recently completed a rather large, involved job. During the work, I was getting plenty of positive feedback, but when it was totally finished, the owners just stood there glowing, and said that I had far exceeded all expectations. They went on to say that they hadn't really thought about how much craftsmanship would be involved, they thought of it more like simple assembly (this is probably why they entered into this with some trepidition likely based on "sticker shock" with my pricing). The point is, this was a good business deal for both of us. They felt good about the amount of money they spent given the product they received. I felt good about the job because I was given a sizable chunk of positive affirmation, and a nice profit to boot. As I drove back home for the final time, my thoughts were about some specific ways that I could personally "chum" the economy. New bike bits and thoughts of a return to Le Alpe d'Huez to attempt to go under an hour, were prominent in my musings. Profits make me happy.

Birddog

[e-RICHIE]

the question should be: what is "outsourcing"?

in the frame business, subcontracting goes back to
at least the 60s, if not before. it would take a book
to explain it all - but it has been the industry standard.

is subcontracting different than outsourcing?
should the owner of an epynomous firm be expected
to stand at a bench forever and not dream about
prospering like many of his clients? having people
do work "for" you is a way to grow the business so
that you can profit enough to realize other dreams
along the way.

[davep]

I don't think he was insinuating Rivendell is motivated by greed. However, there are cases where outsourcing is a legitimate business decision not aimed at hurting American workers for an executive's personal gain (although there is plenty of that as well). In short, it's incorrect to label all outsourcing as bad.

If not all outsourcing is bad, why is any outsourcing bad? It seems like companies like Rivendell (and many start-ups in many industries) who had outsourcing as part of their business plane from the beginning don't get the grief that companies do who once employed American workers and then layed them off to shift production overseas. But they're are still not employing American workers.

[cpg]

I'm not sure how Rivendell got thrown in the mix with Colnago. They truly are apples and oranges in too many ways to list. With that said, Rivendell is a marketing company. They dream up products and source them to be made. They were NEVER a manufacturer. That's neither good nor bad. It's just a fact. Another fact is that Colnago has always been a manufacturer at least until recently. Who knows maybe they still make something but to suffice they've made some changes in their business model. All I was pointing out was the questionable motive for such changes. I'm not arguing that I think Ernesto should be still at the bench. That probably never occured and Colnago the business has always been a manufacturer with lots of employees and probably some local subcontractors (at least rumours support this). But now that formula seems to have changed. Others will undoubtedly argue the whole global market thing and such and that's got merits. But when buying a luxury item built around history that item's value is diminished by ignoring the path that got it there in the first place. Of course all of this is just my opinion and your mileage may differ.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

But now that formula seems to have changed.


isn't that less a bicycle industry phenomenom
and more one of "life in the 21st century"?

[LegendRider]

If not all outsourcing is bad, why is any outsourcing bad? It seems like companies like Rivendell (and many start-ups in many industries) who had outsourcing as part of their business plane from the beginning don't get the grief that companies do who once employed American workers and then layed them off to shift production overseas. But they're are still not employing American workers.

That's a fair question. It's true that when it is announced that a company is deciding to move jobs overseas it viewed much more negatively than a firm whose business plan originally called for non-American labor.

For me, the issue revolves around management's intent. If outsourcing is necessary to survive and compete, then it's justifiable. However, if management is cutting $35k per year American jobs to boost earnings in order to make their massive incentive compensation bonuses, then it's questionable. I simply think business executives should act with a degree of personal integrity, not to the minimum standards of the law or market.

[shinomaster]

isn't that less a bicycle industry phenomenom
and more one of "life in the 21st century"?



I can't call my cable company without my call going first through India. Should Michael Moore make a film about the bike industry?

[1centaur]

Should Michael Moore make a film about the bike industry?

Yes, first because it would be a blast to watch, and second because it would use up some time he could spend making a film on something else.

[Climb01742]

two thoughts:

1. consumers want products that cost less (who can blame 'em?). one way to lower the cost of a product is to outsource it's production. which begins a damaging cycle. as american consumers want ever cheaper products, more american jobs will be lost to overseas cheap-labor countries. it's like the "walmart cycle". people flock to walmarts for cheap stuff. which puts local retailers out of business. which loses the local jobs of the very people who flock to walmarts. i'm not making any value judgement here. just stating an economic fact of life today. and i don't have a solution.

2. there is a small market for products with soul. soul tends to cost more. soul tends to take longer. soul can be messy. soul tends to be imperfect, un-reproduceable on a large scale. soul also tends to be debatable...one person's "soul" is someone else's arty-farty. i try to infuse the ads i write with soul or truth or humanity or whatever you want to call it. many clients just don't want "soul". they want it faster, cheaper, less challenging...you're asking people to think. perish the thought. bikes are an exception, i think. more people want bikes with soul than most other products. sad to say, soul just isn't in very high demand today.

[manet]

... and becuase there is no safety build in
like mechanicly secure the joint you can only hope that you can rely on the glue...


huh?

U tink a tigged frame has safeT bilt in?

please to splane lucy

[manet]

I'm not sure how Rivendell got thrown in the mix with Colnago. They truly are apples and oranges in too many ways to list. With that said, Rivendell is a marketing company. They dream up products and source them to be made. They were NEVER a manufacturer. That's neither good nor bad. It's just a fact. Another fact is that Colnago has always been a manufacturer at least until recently. Who knows maybe they still make something but to suffice they've made some changes in their business model. All I was pointing out was the questionable motive for such changes. I'm not arguing that I think Ernesto should be still at the bench. That probably never occured and Colnago the business has always been a manufacturer with lots of employees and probably some local subcontractors (at least rumours support this). But now that formula seems to have changed. Others will undoubtedly argue the whole global market thing and such and that's got merits. But when buying a luxury item built around history that item's value is diminished by ignoring the path that got it there in the first place. Of course all of this is just my opinion and your mileage may differ.

Curt

and 2 this i will be a tad pleonastic:

both are ALL about marketing.
1) rivendell markets burlap, feel good, grandma's apple pie is best...
2) colnago markets eyetaleon sexy form + function

it's like the weatherman wishing you "a nice day"

[dbrk]

and 2 this i will be a tad pleonastic:

both are ALL about marketing.
1) rivendell markets burlap, feel good, grandma's apple pie is best...
2) colnago markets eyetaleon sexy form + function


"Marketing dissimulation" may be a pleonasm just as "marketing honesty" is an oxymoron; however, there is something to be said for the relationship between them. Rivendell tells you what is up, even who makes the frames and their goals in marketing at different levels. Given the quality of Taiwanese frames generally (and certainly the builder for Riv and Kogswell, the same for the Bleriot), I would have no reservations buying and riding either Taiwanese made Rivs or Colnagos. The difference is that Rivendell will tell you the real deal and Colnago (and their distributor) either won't tell you the truth or tell you one way or the other. That's enough of a difference for me. I have no problem with the quality of Colnagos because every one I've ever had (too, too, too many...) has ridden just fine, some even great! It's the hype, the line, and it's not at all the same in my mind.

There is simply no comparison between these production bikes and, say, Rivendell customs (all built by Curt Goodrich). Of course, if you think that bikes are purely for function (you know, "the ride, the ride, the ride" as if quality, looks, etc. were only vanity) then I'd strongly recommend nearly the cheapest one you can find because, well, lots and lots of those ride just perfectly but, again, such bikes are nothing like a Goodrich, Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg, etc., nuthin' nuthin' nuthin'. I have seen dozens of frames not only bare of paint but sawn in twos and more. There is no comparison in quality if you know what to look for. That said, these Taiwanese bikes often ride just swell. Is the ride better, THAT much better on a custom? It depends what you think _is_ the ride!

And there is a world of difference between what Rivendell is or will tell you and what Colnago won't, but that too has no effect on the ride of a Colnago.

dbrk

[ada@prorider.or]

huh?

U tink a tigged frame has safeT bilt in?

please to splane lucy

yes it has!
becuase a tig weld you notice it when braking by crack's in the welds
and that it is not only one peice (what expoxy is after curing) a weld consist out all all small parts if you look under a microscoop you can see that

again i am NOT saying what de rosa is doing is bad
it only wonders me that they out source the tube making and only are building the parts together
and there is no safety build in on the parts when they connected
i do not doubt about the design!
probely very good engineering
but put the making the tube else where you as a brand stays resonsible for the bike and becuase they do not see in every day job or the tube are constant made by the specs (this of course requires certification) and seen how they work i doubt they have .
i cannot get the idea out of my head totaly relay only only epoxy glue special the black one they use
there are far more better one's
in areospace for those application they use pink clored epoxy they have far more better spec then the black one
do not get me wrong you can use black epoxy we also use them but not in this kind of constuction its not adviseble
i would also make sure there is a second emerency construction in aerospace they use rivets for a example
those extra constuction called fear rivits
i personaly would use a very simpel thing on the frame to extra secure this

but again it stays personal i think

the same feeling i have with carbon forks
cees

[e-RICHIE]

remember what the coach said.

[davep]

it only wonders me that they out source the tube making and only are building the parts together


I don't see how this makes any difference at all. Serotta, e-Richie, Dave Kirk, Merlin, Moots, etc also do not make their own tubes. Neither do they mine and smelt the ore. The buy the tubes they want, or spec them, from supliers. Then they put the parts together. In their case the "glue" is silver or bronze and not epoxy. But they are responsible, as DeRosa is, for the design, the specifications of the parts, the joining methods, the paint and the quality of construction.

[e-RICHIE]

i'm busted.
you got me.

[bluesea]

The difference is that Rivendell will tell you the real deal and Colnago (and their distributor) either won't tell you the truth or tell you one way or the other. That's enough of a difference for me. dbrk

Not that it matters too much, but Colnago did make an announcement about moving their lower level bike manufacture (good word) to Taiwan.

cees,
In terms of carbon construction and ultimate safety, I don't think there are many informed riders who do not realize the "chance" for catastrophic failure with that material. Have you checked out the home-built high performance aviation scene? You could have a field day over there...

[ada@prorider.or]

Not that it matters too much, but Colnago did make an announcement about moving their lower level bike manufacture (good word) to Taiwan.

cees,
In terms of carbon construction and ultimate safety, I don't think there are many informed riders who do not realize the "chance" for catastrophic failure with that material. Have you checked out the home-built high performance aviation scene? You could have a field day over there...

well i understand that but i am a cyclist and see some
problems around me and accidents just want to be people are aware of this and re think twice

[bluesea]

well i understand that but i am a cyclist and see some
problems around me and accidents just want to be people are aware of this and re think twice

Good point about the accidents. It would be great if everyone chimed in with their experiencing/witnessing catastrophic failures with steel and carbon frames, where there were no crashes involved and where the bike had not been previously involved in a crash. Its 5am. Gotta go ride.

[ada@prorider.or]

I don't see how this makes any difference at all. Serotta, e-Richie, Dave Kirk, Merlin, Moots, etc also do not make their own tubes. Neither do they mine and smelt the ore. The buy the tubes they want, or spec them, from supliers. Then they put the parts together. In their case the "glue" is silver or bronze and not epoxy. But they are responsible, as DeRosa is, for the design, the specifications of the parts, the joining methods, the paint and the quality of construction.


well again metal tubes are totaly not to compare with carbon tubes
this becuase tubes general made out of differant layers
and metal tube out of isotropic material
(A special class of orthotropic materials are those that have the same properties in one plane (e.g. the x-y plane) and different properties in the direction normal to this plane (e.g. the z-axis). Such materials are called transverse isotropic, and they are described by 5 independen)

and the carbon is orthotropic or anisotropic

wich has to be treated totaly differant
that;s why the design and making is very important becuaseof the direction of the fibers is extremly important!!!

[coylifut]

Good point about the accidents. It would be great if everyone chimed in with their experiencing/witnessing catastrophic failures with steel and carbon frames, where there were no crashes involved and where the bike had not been previously involved in a crash. Its 5am. Gotta go ride.

I've only seen catastrophicfailures of bars, stems and seat posts. I can't confirm whether or not they were involved in prior accidents. all of em were very ugly though.

[bluesea]

I've only seen catastrophicfailures of bars, stems and seat posts. I can't confirm whether or not they were involved in prior accidents. all of em were very ugly though.

Was the seatpost a stock gruppo item, or a weight weenie type?

Oh well, off to work where I spend my hours ruthlessly exacting my will upon a potentially ornery cellulose-based fiberous material of varying species.

[shinomaster]

A smart local racer (races for the bike gallery on Treks) told me he hasn't seen their OCLV frames explode in races (crashes) the way giants or calfees or cheaper frames do. Why are treks so much better built?

[manet]

... called fear rivits...


also referred to by some, as stress risers.

carbon toothpick pinning better.

[columbusslx]

A smart local racer (races for the bike gallery on Treks) told me he hasn't seen their OCLV frames explode in races (crashes) the way giants or calfees or cheaper frames do. Why are treks so much better built?

Maybe not better built, but certainly no worse, Trek, until recently, has stayed out of the Weight Weenie business. A well built carbon frame weighing 1300 grams or so (typical trek) is like a 4.25lb steel frame. It won't die in a wreck like a UltraFoco steel/Airplane AL/800g carbon bike.