Campagnolo wheels comparison?

[Andrewlcox]

I have a question about wheels, their prices and marketing.

I will be building a Legend soon and want to give it some worthy parts and wheels but is there really a $1000 advantage with the Shamals vs. the Ventos?

I see I can buy Campagnolo Vento wheels for nearly $1000 less the Shamals. I've never put much thought into wheels and been satisfied that if they roll I'm happy. I'm not a racer, climber or sprinter and doubt I would know the difference of an expensive wheels vs. a less expensive wheel.

I know there are endless choices of wheels but I want to build a Campy equipped bike this time.

Has anyone had experience with both ends of Campagnolo's wheelsets? What makes one better or worse than the other?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[AngryScientist]

r and doubt I would know the difference of an expensive wheels vs. a less expensive wheel.



Andrew,

I have to disagree completely with you, respectfully of course. the difference between a good light wheel and a crappy, heavy one can change the feel of a bike completely. and i mean completely. i own both a legend and a set of shamals, and that legend with shamals feels totally different than the same bike with khamsins (campy's cheapest wheel). very big difference in feel.

to address your next question: shamals are some of the best, but the next logical step down is the eurus wheel. same as the shamal i believe save for the carbon hub shell and ceramic bearings. i would expect these wheels to perform very, very similarly. the vento is next down the line, and also an excellent wheel.

to be sure: as i mentioned, i own and ride a bunch of campy wheels, from the shamal, down to the lowly khamsin, and they are all well built, durable wheels. you cant go wrong with any campy prebuilts.

next, price: you need to be shopping the UK stores. you say vento is $1k cheaper than shamal, i tell you that you can get shamals from the UK for a little over $1k total!

to summarize: the shamals are great wheels, some of my favorites, but the vento will be excellent too, if you'reon a budget, just get the ventos.

[r_mutt]

personally, i wouldn't buy anything less than the zonda from campy. the zonda is a great wheelset. i have both the zonda and shamal and yes, i can feel the difference.

[Andrewlcox]

Andrew,

I have to disagree completely with you, respectfully of course. the difference between a good light wheel and a crappy, heavy one can change the feel of a bike completely. and i mean completely. i own both a legend and a set of shamals, and that legend with shamals feels totally different than the same bike with khamsins (campy's cheapest wheel). very big difference in feel.

to address your next question: shamals are some of the best, but the next logical step down is the eurus wheel. same as the shamal i believe save for the carbon hub shell and ceramic bearings. i would expect these wheels to perform very, very similarly. the vento is next down the line, and also an excellent wheel.

to be sure: as i mentioned, i own and ride a bunch of campy wheels, from the shamal, down to the lowly khamsin, and they are all well built, durable wheels. you cant go wrong with any campy prebuilts.

next, price: you need to be shopping the UK stores. you say vento is $1k cheaper than shamal, i tell you that you can get shamals from the UK for a little over $1k total!

to summarize: the shamals are great wheels, some of my favorites, but the vento will be excellent too, if you'reon a budget, just get the ventos.

Thanks very much for the respectful reply. I'm glad to get a level headed reply without starting a flame war.

I want this to be the best bike it can be so maybe I'll buy the Shamals and get over the price difference. It will be interesting to step up into a high end bike and wheels since I've always just been on entry level stuff.

Thanks!!!

[AngryScientist]

andrew, you will not be disappointed with shamals. they are a great choice for any bike.

[dana_e]

fantastic price for the weight

[Vientomas]

I have owned a few sets of Campy pre-built wheels but not the Erus or Shamal. Both have aluminum spokes which I have read result in a bit harsher of a ride. I have no real world experience, or opinion, but just something to consider. Those who have ridden both the aluminum spoke and steel spoke offerings can chime in and tell us what their experience has been.

[Joachim]

I have found that the Neutron Ultra (clincher) is one of the best riding wheelsets I have owned. I would rank them just a smidget below my Nemesis tubulars. If it wasn't for the difficult tire installation I would still own the Neutrons.

[chismog]

Imho it is totally diminishing returns and unless you are racing the bike or getting some huge deal, mid level aluminum campy wheels are the way to go. The guy who suggested Zondas is spot on. Sturdy mid-height rim, steel spokes, triplet spoke pattern on the rear, OS aluminum axle with campy's top hub internals and steel bearings. Bomber but pretty light. I would get these or the Fulcrum Racing 3 which is basically the same wheel, slightly different spoking pattern on the back.

Above this level you go to aluminum spokes, carbon hub shells, ceramic bearings, and various other bling. Doesn't get you much more wheel, just slightly less weight.

Below this level you get heavier parts, steel axles, heavier rims (sometimes with eyelets +1). The cheaper rims might not be welded (-1). They're still good wheels, but overall lower quality, heavier, and thus cheaper.

Stay away from anything with G3 spoke patterns in the front. It's unnecessary and dumb.

These days I would spring for the 2 way fit. You get a tubeless option that way, but not tubeless specific. Nice to have choices.

I've got Eurus, Fulcrum R3, Nucleon tubular, Nucleon clinchers, all with steel spokes. Fulcrum R3s are my faves, Eurus a close second. The modern Zonda is basically the same as the older steel spoked Eurus, I think. Love the hubs at this level- well thought out, light, strong, and serviceable.

Chainlove has been selling the Fulcrum R3s for <$500 lately. Good deal I think.

[AngryScientist]

it's the only pic i have handy, but this thread needs a picture of a legend with shamals!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dl3t3GjxIhI/UAdu-3MXH6I/AAAAAAAAAiY/-VMcj-eMYDQ/s640/IMG_0855.JPG

[Dave]

You need to find a place that sells wheels at better prices. A pair of Shamals shouldn't cost $1000, let alone that much more than a Vento wheelset.

Fulcrum wheels are nice too, with a few different models.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/pp/road-track-bike/wheels-factory-road-triathlon/whfr

Looking at a few US-based websites, it appears that the huge pricing disparity between sellers in the the US and UK hasn't changed much in the last 4 years.

http://www.texascyclesport.com/store/listItems.asp?idCategory=561

[dd74]

Get the Shamals. They are worth it.

[yakstone]

Nice wheels are, well, nice.

You do feel the difference and they are worth the money.

[oldpotatoe]

I have a question about wheels, their prices and marketing.

I will be building a Legend soon and want to give it some worthy parts and wheels but is there really a $1000 advantage with the Shamals vs. the Ventos?

I see I can buy Campagnolo Vento wheels for nearly $1000 less the Shamals. I've never put much thought into wheels and been satisfied that if they roll I'm happy. I'm not a racer, climber or sprinter and doubt I would know the difference of an expensive wheels vs. a less expensive wheel.

I know there are endless choices of wheels but I want to build a Campy equipped bike this time.

Has anyone had experience with both ends of Campagnolo's wheelsets? What makes one better or worse than the other?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Talk to one of us wheelbuilders here and have them design and build a wheelset specifically for you.

Like Record hubs, DT, Velocity, Ambrosio or even Mavic rims, DT or Sapim spokes..

Same hub as the Shamals, ceramic bearings are a waste of $, same weight(or lighter), designed specifically for you, Not using unique to those wheels, parts...and.......................->

Cheaper.

Less than $1000 for a really nice, Record hubset, custom wheelset.

If ya got a Record hub, A23, OC rear, Revolution spokes front, Comps rear...you would pay $755 at my house.

[AngryScientist]

with all due respect to old potatoe and all the wheelbuilders of the world, a 32 spoke wheelset as he's describing is not going to be near the same as the shamal.

i've got plenty of wheels, and plenty of handbuilt wheels too. matter of fact, i have a set almost exactly similar to what OP is describing above, and the ride is not in the same ballpark as the shamals.

[Hank Scorpio]

I have the Fulcrum racing ones, eurus, zonda 2 ways and a set of record hubs to hed belgiums. The handbuilts have the most compliant ride out of all. The three pre builts all ride pretty similar. One thing that I really like about the fulcrums over the others is the lack of G3 spoking. On my rear eurus I have developed a flat spot between the spokes which is very hard to true out. I really only feel it on the rollers now but it is still there unless I decide to swap out to a new rim.

[oldpotatoe]

with all due respect to old potatoe and all the wheelbuilders of the world, a 32 spoke wheelset as he's describing is not going to be near the same as the shamal.

i've got plenty of wheels, and plenty of handbuilt wheels too. matter of fact, i have a set almost exactly similar to what OP is describing above, and the ride is not in the same ballpark as the shamals.

'Not near the same'??

Not trying start some sort of argument but how so?

Do the aluminum spokes make that much difference to you?

[Lionel]

I have many handbuilts but the Shamal are an awesome all around wheelset. You cannot go wrong with them. The G3 pattern in the back makes sense as well. Campy pre-built are hard to beat.

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u459/Lionel_B/Strrong/Strongshamal.jpg

[AngryScientist]

'Not near the same'??

Not trying start some sort of argument but how so?

Do the aluminum spokes make that much difference to you?

It's not just the aluminum spokes, it's the whole package. Shamans just ride fantastically, period. I'm not downgrading your opinion or expertise at all, and I know you're big on handbuilts, I get that, really, I do - but I'll say it again, 32 spoke handbuilts have their place, but not everywhere. The original post was about campy prebuilts, not handbuilts wheels. Same as someone asking what sports car should I buy, and someone piping in that they should buy a jeep.

Shamal = sports car
32 spoke wheels = jeep

[Black Dog]

It's not just the aluminum spokes, it's the whole package. Shamans just ride fantastically, period. I'm not downgrading your opinion or expertise at all, and I know you're big on handbuilts, I get that, really, I do - but I'll say it again, 32 spoke handbuilts have their place, but not everywhere. The original post was about campy prebuilts, not handbuilts wheels. Same as someone asking what sports car should I buy, and someone piping in that they should buy a jeep.

Shamal = sports car
32 spoke wheels = jeep

Wheels do have different ride characteristics but extraordinary claims should be supported with some evidence that goes beyond anecdote; even some simple blind tests. As a scientist you must be very cognizant of observational bias and placebo effects. No offence meant here but your claims do lack a bit of specificity.

[saab2000]

One cannot provide scientific evidence for the feel of a wheel. My Nucleons feel better than other wheels I have used. It's only anecdotal and if someone likes handmade wheels they should use them. But Campagnolo wheels are pretty much beyond reproach. They are super strong and durable wheels and in my experience feel great.

[Mark McM]

One cannot provide scientific evidence for the feel of a wheel.

I disagree. There are many things that science can't measure directly, but there are still methods to gather quantitative data. One such property is pain. We can't measure pain directly, nor can we directly measure how much a particular medicine relieves pain. But we can perform double-blind tests on pain sufferers to test the efficacy of pain medicines.

Likewise, it should be possible to quantify the feel of wheels through some type of double blind tests. I've never heard of such a test being done, and I'm not sure how you'd perform one, but there have been double-blind tests of other bicycle components. One of the most famous was the double-blind testing of frames built with different steel tube sets, published in Bicycle Guide magazine. The results of which steel tube set provided the best ride was, to say the least, inconclusive.

Another test was performed by a group of friends, who each swore that they could feel the difference between butyl and latex inner tubes. But when they were subjected to a double blind test, using the same wheels and tires but with different inner tubes installed randomly for a series of trials by a 3rd party, they had to admit that they couldn't really feel a difference.

(As a suggestion, if a double-blind test was performed with different wheels, I would suggest that the test subjects wear earplugs. Different wheels can have different acoustical properties, and transmit or magnify sounds from road vibration or aerodynamic wind noises differently, which might influence a riders perception of wheel "feel".)

[saab2000]

You may be right in theory. I don't doubt that double blind tests of things like tubesets and inner tubes are cool but it would be difficult with wheels. Less so with tires if you could get manufacturers to make a bunch of label-free tires.

But I'm not worried about it either way. I'm not spending a premium on my Nucleons. I once spent $500 on a set of NIB NOS Nucleons, and that is less than a set of comparable handbuilts would run.

So I have a win/win with mine at least. They feel better to me and they cost me less money. And they've been as reliable as the sunrise since I got my first set about 7 years ago. The only broken spokes I had were on a used set of the clincher Nucleons which had been, unbeknownst to me, rebuilt and poorly rebuilt. They had several non-drive side spokes on the drive side and they were not crossed properly. I never noticed it until I broke a couple of spokes, ruining a couple rides and did a closer examination of the wheels.

So with that odd exception they have been super reliable and economical wheels for me.

[jr59]

It's not just the aluminum spokes, it's the whole package. Shamans just ride fantastically, period. I'm not downgrading your opinion or expertise at all, and I know you're big on handbuilts, I get that, really, I do - but I'll say it again, 32 spoke handbuilts have their place, but not everywhere. The original post was about campy prebuilts, not handbuilts wheels. Same as someone asking what sports car should I buy, and someone piping in that they should buy a jeep.

Shamal = sports car
32 spoke wheels = jeep

Dis-agree!

[AngryScientist]

Dis-agree!

honest question - do you own a set of shamals?

[thwart]

Shamal = sports car
32 spoke wheels = jeep

Disclaimer: I've never ridden Shamals... but I have ridden several high end Campy wheels. I think that's an unfair analogy to make, unless those Shamals are magic wheels.

Try:

Shamals = sports car
32 spoke wheels = sport coupe

[AngryScientist]

Disclaimer: I've never ridden Shamals... but I have ridden several high end Campy wheels. I think that's an unfair analogy to make, unless those Shamals are magic wheels.

Try:

Shamals = sports car
32 spoke wheels = sport coupe

depends on the build of course.

i was just trying to make a point.

this is a case of ATFQ.

the OP specifically asked about campy pre-built wheel comparisons. then, a guy who owns a bike shop tells him he doesnt want those wheels, he wants wheels that a bike shop can build for him, hence my car analogy.

i like handbuilt wheels too, but that wasnt the question posed here.

[jlwdm]

Some riders can feel differences between wheels better than others. Angry Scientist gave his opinion based on his experiences.

Why do others feel a need to attack him?

Type of spokes? There are more differences in these wheels.

Blind tests? Pretty much impossible to do. The opinion is from a rider who rides his bikes and wheels on a regular basis.

Just disagree?

If you have an opinion on Campy wheels, give it.

Jeff

[tuscanyswe]

My exp with prebuilts campy are ventos who went out of true fairly easy (alltho i did ride them with a flat for about 1km..) I dident like them very much from the start, perhaps cause i knew they were cheap, perhaps cause it was winterriding.

Had some zondas that i thought were pretty nice. Again these too were on a winter bike but they held up nicely and felt solid.

Had some campy record / open pro. Great wheels with no issues but they do feel more comfy than fast sporty imo.

Got Campy hyperons. The sound and ride of record / op but with a more sporty feel and a lighter package. I like em alot!

[lovebird]

I love my Campy Eurus tubulars (silver, from 2006 I think). Great road feel, faster than my other set of handbuilt tubs (36h Nemesis/white industry H3/FMBs), and have been bullet proof under my 210+ lbs.

Don't get me wrong, I love handbuilts too, and have a number of clincher handbuilts of the 32/36 3x variety. But I think it's hard to beat the integrated approach campy takes with their higher end mid-depth wheels like larger side drive flanges and 2:1 spokes on the rear wheel.

[merlinmurph]

FWIW, four years ago, I bought a pair of Neutron Ultras from the UK ($400 difference from here in US). After three seasons (~12k miles), I finally brought in my rear wheel to have it trued because there was a teeny wobble. That's it. Solid as a rock, and they feel nice. My LBS said he sold a pair to guy weighing ~230 lbs and they hold up well.

Just my 2 cents
Enjoy your ride,
Murph

[BCS]

With their latest coupon, Ribble has Zondas for $325. Seems like a deal and I have sworn off clinchers ;)

[Lionel]

Did I mention that Shamal are still available in tubular ?

[saab2000]

Did I mention that Shamal are still available in tubular ?

I've been very tempted to get a set and save a couple hundred grams over my Nucleons.

[Lionel]

I've been very tempted to get a set and save a couple hundred grams over my Nucleons.

Do it ! They are my only clincher wheelset left but when I got them on sale at Ribble they were blowing off the clincher only. Still an excellent wheelset, very solid. As with all my campy wheelset I never touched them at all. I wish they were tubular though.

[dd74]

Then, of course, there are Boras.

[Craig Ryan]

I've do most of my riding on Shamal tubulars. I have also done some time on a set of Fulcrum Zero Racing clinchers, but I moved those over to my wife's bike. If you want an aluminum wheel, those two are hard to beat. Campagnolo makes nice equipment, I see no reason to think twice about purchasing their stuff. The graphics are sometimes a bit loud, but once you're rolling it's all good.

[jlwdm]

I would love to try a set of Shamals, but on my CSI I want a traditional looking silver hub with a silver rim - not a G3.

Jeff

[majl]

Then, of course, there are Boras.
A set of dark label Bora Ultra 2 tubulars are on my wish list. Yummy!

[oldpotatoe]

depends on the build of course.

i was just trying to make a point.

this is a case of ATFQ.

the OP specifically asked about campy pre-built wheel comparisons. then, a guy who owns a bike shop tells him he doesnt want those wheels, he wants wheels that a bike shop can build for him, hence my car analogy.

i like handbuilt wheels too, but that wasnt the question posed here.

I don't mind people taking shots but please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about what the guy should or shouldn't do. In this DISCUSSION group, I discussed other options, and mentioned 'wheelbuilders on this forum', of which most are not in a bike shop.

Please scroll back to my 'discussion' point for reference, if you wish.

Look if ya like those wheels, great and groovy but acknowledge at least that at MSRP, some sort of 'benchmark', they are more expensive and use $10 spokes...and Campagnolo won't be supporting them with rims and spokes in a few years if their past support for their wheels is any guide.

I'm out.

[djg]

I don't mind people taking shots but please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about what the guy should or shouldn't do. In this DISCUSSION group, I discussed other options, and mentioned 'wheelbuilders on this forum', of which most are not in a bike shop.

Please scroll back to my 'discussion' point for reference, if you wish.

Look if ya like those wheels, great and groovy but acknowledge at least that at MSRP, some sort of 'benchmark', they are more expensive and use $10 spokes...and Campagnolo won't be supporting them with rims and spokes in a few years if their past support for their wheels is any guide.

As to what the OP should do . . . well, his call, but I think that something like a shamal tubular with good quality (need not be the fmb silks folks are talking about -- I mean, something like a Vittoria or a Conti Comp) will feel notably different, and better, than the same bike built with Ventos and any tire out there. I also think it's not crazy for the OP to listen to old tater's pitch about possible alternatives that might still fit the image of a Campy build.

I'm out.

I don't think it's crazy at all to mention alternatives, especially as you pitched a record hub to somebody interested in a campy build.

IMO, Campy makes great wheels. I've got a set of Neucleon tubulars (predecessors to the Neutrons, as you know, but some don't) as well as a relatively new set of Eurus tubulars, and some cheapie clinchers for commuting. Different, but both great IMO -- very smooth, stable, dependable wheels. Not ultralights, but definitely respectable, race-able weight.

IMO, it's a great integrated package that they deliver, and there's nothing wrong with paying some premium for that. OTOH, there's no magic there, and the price march on factory wheels has been something to watch over the last 10 years, and it's not just about Campy. My nucleon's were used -- couple hundred bucks or so -- my Eurus bought NOS (right here I think) at a deal price. But as pre-built wheels from Campy, Mavic, and everybody start climbing past MSRP of 1K, 1200 bucks, 1400 . . . well, heck, go ahead and say "what the heck" if that's where a guy is at, or find a deal, but it seems normal to me that one might start to consider non-factory alternatives using primo factory bits. Might be nice if Campag offered a 28 hole record hub for various builds, but I reckon they know the inferno in which their buttered bread first gets toasted.

[Dave]

FWIW, I owned two LOOK 585 bikes with Record drivetrains. One had Fulcrum Zeros and the other had handbuilt wheels with DT RR 415 rims, 28H, 2X, powertap hubs (from Excel Sports).

I never noticed any huge difference in ride or handling. I was quite impressed with the handbuilt wheels - the first I'd owned for quite a few years.

I've owned a lot of top-line Mavic and Campy prebuilts, starting with the very first Campy Shamals. The only problem I've ever had was a rim width variation on a front Eurus that caused braking problems.

[Andrewlcox]

I just watched an episode of How It's Made and they built Campagnolo and Fulcrum wheels. They assembled the Fulcrums in the end but I think they started the process with Campagnolo.

Is there any relation to Fulcrums and Campy wheels? It seems strange the episode covered both manufactures under what appeared to be one roof.

[jlwdm]

Campy owns Fulcrum.

Jeff

[Andrewlcox]

Nevermind, I found this. http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/corporate/index.jsp

No wonder they were under the same roof on the show.

Thanks Jeff

[wc1934]

I just watched an episode of How It's Made and they built Campagnolo and Fulcrum wheels. They assembled the Fulcrums in the end but I think they started the process with Campagnolo.

Is there any relation to Fulcrums and Campy wheels? It seems strange the episode covered both manufactures under what appeared to be one roof.

I read somewhere that Campy developed the Fulcrum line so that it could accommodate a Shimano cassette, as they did not want the Campy name associated with any Shimano parts.

[thwart]

Can you blame them?

... duck... ;)

[jlwdm]

I read somewhere that Campy developed the Fulcrum line so that it could accommodate a Shimano cassette, as they did not want the Campy name associated with any Shimano parts.

Close. So they could more easily sell to Shimano users.

Jeff

[oldpotatoe]

I read somewhere that Campy developed the Fulcrum line so that it could accommodate a Shimano cassette, as they did not want the Campy name associated with any Shimano parts.

Not exactly. Campagnolo had a "HG" freehub body since the late 90s for their aluminum axled hubs.

[Andrewlcox]

Thanks for the discussion on the topic of Campagnolo wheels. I just received my Campagnolo Shamals yesterday and install my Vittora Open Corsas. They should make the Legend really pop. I'm saving up for a groupset and will post pictures when it's all built up in the Spring.

Thanks again,
Andy

[changes2008]

Late to this party, but... Comparison of pain to the feel of a wheel/tire/tube would be apples and oranges. That is, unless you are wanting to observe a particular person's threshold of pain or their "feeling" of how said wheel performs (feels).

Wheels can be directly tested scientifically on how they should preform in a given condition, how aero, etc. Pain on the other hand when dished out is all based on what kind of tolerance a person has or how much pain an individual could take. Science can directly measure how much pain you administer to a person (10V of electricity) and directly test 10 different people and their pain threshold, but that is something that is different for each individual.

Just like how a wheel feels to an individual is something of a personal matter. You cannot quantify a person's feeling because it varies wildly from person to person. Just like pain, the "feel" of something can be directly influenced by another person's input.

Now, if I completely misinterpreted what you're trying to say, please let me know.


I disagree. There are many things that science can't measure directly, but there are still methods to gather quantitative data. One such property is pain. We can't measure pain directly, nor can we directly measure how much a particular medicine relieves pain. But we can perform double-blind tests on pain sufferers to test the efficacy of pain medicines.

Likewise, it should be possible to quantify the feel of wheels through some type of double blind tests. I've never heard of such a test being done, and I'm not sure how you'd perform one, but there have been double-blind tests of other bicycle components. One of the most famous was the double-blind testing of frames built with different steel tube sets, published in Bicycle Guide magazine. The results of which steel tube set provided the best ride was, to say the least, inconclusive.

Another test was performed by a group of friends, who each swore that they could feel the difference between butyl and latex inner tubes. But when they were subjected to a double blind test, using the same wheels and tires but with different inner tubes installed randomly for a series of trials by a 3rd party, they had to admit that they couldn't really feel a difference.

(As a suggestion, if a double-blind test was performed with different wheels, I would suggest that the test subjects wear earplugs. Different wheels can have different acoustical properties, and transmit or magnify sounds from road vibration or aerodynamic wind noises differently, which might influence a riders perception of wheel "feel".)

[oldpotatoe]

Late to this party, but... Comparison of pain to the feel of a wheel/tire/tube would be apples and oranges. That is, unless you are wanting to observe a particular person's threshold of pain or their "feeling" of how said wheel performs (feels).

Wheels can be directly tested scientifically on how they should preform in a given condition, how aero, etc. Pain on the other hand when dished out is all based on what kind of tolerance a person has or how much pain an individual could take. Science can directly measure how much pain you administer to a person (10V of electricity) and directly test 10 different people and their pain threshold, but that is something that is different for each individual.

Just like how a wheel feels to an individual is something of a personal matter. You cannot quantify a person's feeling because it varies wildly from person to person. Just like pain, the "feel" of something can be directly influenced by another person's input. If every before you gets shocked with 1 Volt but comes out crying there is a good chance it would hurt more. There are psychological studies done on this very thing.

Now, if I completely misinterpreted what you're trying to say, please let me know.

that was painful.....

Just kidding..subjective-ness...I agree.

[changes2008]

If every before you gets shocked with 1 Volt but comes out crying there is a good chance it would hurt more. There are psychological studies done on this very thing.

Ugh. :mad:

[changes2008]

Crap, double post. Sorry.

[esldude]

Andrewlcox,

I bet you will love your new wheels. My first set of Campy wheels became my favorites in about one ride. Hey, what else is there that matters?