Pathetic Individuals...

[RacerJRP]

...Broke into my girlfriends house yesterday. Kicked in the front door, and took all of the jewelry (most of which I bought her) and electronics. Took it out in one of her pillow cases which was missing.

Cops said they couldn't get any decent prints off anything, but it was definately an amateur familiar with the schedule of the household. We are thinking it was the neighbors who are about as low-life as it gets, but no way to prove it.

:mad:

[AngryScientist]

terrible.

there is a special place in hell for people who take advantage of others.

keep an eye on the local craigslist, if there are any pawn shops by you, keep them posted too.

[MattTuck]

Sorry to hear about that!


Nothing you can do about the stuff that is gone, but for the future...

Protect your valuables with insurance (renter's insurance or home owner's insurance) and get riders for especially valuable things. I'd take pictures and catalog anything with a value over $100.

Also, video surveillance systems are pretty affordable these days.

[Chance]

Sorry to hear this happen to you both.

Also may want to consider an alarm system. My parents finally got one after being broken into twice. They think it may have been the same guys who came back for seconds.

[SpokeValley]

That beyond sucks.

It just seems like people are in a "what can I get" mode, whether it's from Uncle Sam, the neighbors, whatever. Kind of an "occupy" mentality.

One reason I went firearm shopping at my local purveyor yesterday. You would not believe the crowd! The place was packed.

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.

[Vientomas]

That beyond sucks.

It just seems like people are in a "what can I get" mode, whether it's from Uncle Sam, the neighbors, whatever. Kind of an "occupy" mentality.

One reason I went firearm shopping at my local purveyor yesterday. You would not believe the crowd! The place was packed.

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.

What are you preparing for?

[bicycletricycle]

that really sucks. sometimes that kind of frustrating s**t can really drag you down.

vigilante time?

[zap]

One reason I went firearm shopping at my local purveyor yesterday. You would not believe the crowd! The place was packed.

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.

:rolleyes:

[azrider]

dude...had my storage locker (off the side of my back patio) broken into and my MTB, clubs, camping gear were stolen. Nothing sh*tier than that feeling of complete violation. I wasted many hours contemplating what if's, don't waste your time with that.

I bought a fake security camera off the bay for $15 and no break-in's since. NOT SAYING ITS THE REASON.....but might make low lifes think twice.

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mFL0kTMU_y_PwmbwrP__LJw.jpg

[Grumbs]

That beyond sucks.

It just seems like people are in a "what can I get" mode, whether it's from Uncle Sam, the neighbors, whatever. Kind of an "occupy" mentality.

One reason I went firearm shopping at my local purveyor yesterday. You would not believe the crowd! The place was packed.

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.

Dooood! That's nothin'!!! If you want to really be prepared, you better get some freeze-dried food and stuffs, 'cause 'those people' will stop at nothing! You need to take your whole troop and run and hide doooooooooood!:eek::help:

[BCS]

What are you preparing for?
They are out there....

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/

[tiretrax]

My wife drove up the driveway to the garage which is behind our house at the rear of the property. She opened the garage door, drove in, and then decided to back into the driveway and park. She was in the car for 5-10 minutes removing the registration sticker, went into the house to get some windex, and came back out. she saw a man sitting beside the passenger side of the car. She started screaming, and when he lunged at her, she turned and ran into the street, continuing to scream. He went into the garage and rode out on my son's old bicycle. She'll never leave any doors unlocked or the garage door open again, even for a minute.

Last night, I replaced all the burnt out lightbulbs in our outdoor lights and replaced the battery in the gate that is at the head of the driveway. Other measures to follow.

[thwart]

One reason I went firearm shopping at my local purveyor yesterday. You would not believe the crowd! The place was packed.

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.
You can never have too many handguns.

... not exactly the example I'd want my Scouts to follow...

Then again, I have too many bikes. :rolleyes:

[SamIAm]

My wife drove up the driveway to the garage which is behind our house at the rear of the property. She opened the garage door, drove in, and then decided to back into the driveway and park. She was in the car for 5-10 minutes removing the registration sticker, went into the house to get some windex, and came back out. she saw a man sitting beside the passenger side of the car. She started screaming, and when he lunged at her, she turned and ran into the street, continuing to scream. He went into the garage and rode out on my son's old bicycle. She'll never leave any doors unlocked or the garage door open again, even for a minute.

Last night, I replaced all the burnt out lightbulbs in our outdoor lights and replaced the battery in the gate that is at the head of the driveway. Other measures to follow.

Wow, that is a very scary story. I'm glad your wife is ok. I must say that my wife and I are probably woefully naive to the potential for this kind of possibility. My wife does carry and is trained, but still I wonder if she would be able to pull it off in an emergency.

[JLNK]

After having some individuals who were clearly not from the neighborhood driving around obviously "shopping," and having someone show up at our door on a Saturday nite claiming to represent some company and if he could "only come in for a minute" he could explain the services he was offering - we called the police who could do little, got a sercurity system for the house, and have Smith & Wesson on house duty. Not long after we had the guy come to our house an elderly couple several miles north of us had someone come to their door claiming to be from the Census. They let him in and were assaulted and robbed.

[Louis]

What are you preparing for?

Four more years, apparently.

[firerescuefin]

Bro...that really sucks...If possible, get out of there. I would imagine, especially for your girl, that it would be very hard to come back to the scene of the crime without long term anxiety over the event...and fear of another (maybe with her present the second time)

Anything come of your plans to move out to the Denver area?

[Aaron O]

We were robbed in June...I woke up with two low lives in the house. I felt totally helpless, my leg was broken and there wasn't a thing I could do. The police were extremely Laissez-faire, but I kept pushing and they eventually took and ran prints. One of the dead beats was caught...and they pinned 14 other burglaries on him as well...he's delayed two pre-trials so far, probably hoping I won't show...but there is no amount of PDO I won't spend to nail this turd.

It's such an awful feeling, but having a puppy in the house now (by puppy I mean an 80 lbs LOUD barker) makes me feel a lot more secure. I pity the fool who breaks into a house with Monty...or, as I call him, the Monti-saurus.

[firerescuefin]

We were robbed in June...I woke up with two low lives in the house. I felt totally helpless, my leg was broken and there wasn't a thing I could do. The police were extremely Laissez-faire, but I kept pushing and they eventually took and ran prints. One of the dead beats was caught...and they pinned 14 other burglaries on him as well...he's delayed two pre-trials so far, probably hoping I won't show...but there is no amount of PDO I won't spend to nail this turd.

It's such an awful feeling, but having a puppy in the house now (by puppy I mean an 80 lbs LOUD barker) makes me feel a lot more secure. I pity the fool who breaks into a house with Monty...or, as I call him, the Monti-saurus.

Aaron...we need to get you "gunned up" ;)

[ctcyclistbob]

Sorry to hear about this, it's terrible and I hope you can recover some or all of the items.

I bought a fake security camera off the bay for $15 and no break-in's since. NOT SAYING ITS THE REASON.....but might make low lifes think twice.

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mFL0kTMU_y_PwmbwrP__LJw.jpg

This is a brilliant idea. I'm going to look into this.

[cmg]

if you have a description of what was taken go to the local pawn shops and pretend to be looking for the stuff. It probably hasn't left the neighborhood. and yea it was probably the neighbors.

[thinpin]

If I'm working in the garage I rarely leave the main door to the road open as there are eight nice bikes in there. Recently a friend working with me thought I was a bit paranoid as we live in a quiet neighbourhood.
He stayed over last week for a party and slept in his camper outside the house. Someone tried to do over his van at 3am. That shook him a bit. It pays to be careful.

[BobbyJones]

A good start- especially for apartment dwellers:

http://simplisafe.com/

[Aaron O]

Aaron...we need to get you "gunned up" ;)

Ehhh...I trust the dog more than my aim (or temper). I'm probably going down that road at some point, but I really have felt safe with the puppy.

[tiretrax]

Wow, that is a very scary story. I'm glad your wife is ok. I must say that my wife and I are probably woefully naive to the potential for this kind of possibility. My wife does carry and is trained, but still I wonder if she would be able to pull it off in an emergency.

Thankfully, she's ok, but she's pretty jumpy. I watched her lock the door as soon as the kids were in my car this morning. I have her 9 mm hidden away at her request, but she isn't intersted in having it back.

We live on a somewhat busy street, and there's a very high end town across the street. Their police responded in no more than two minutes. The guy was spotted on the rail to trail not far from our house, but no arrests yet. The 45 cm Felt was probably traded for a rock of crack.

Aaron O - bought any guns yet? That's more frightening than any movie I've ever seen. I'm thinking hard about making a trip to the armory even though no one entered my house.

[mistermo]

Yes, I did buy two new pieces. I'm a Boy Scout leader so I have to set the example: Be Prepared.

As an Eagle Scout, and a former Scout leader, I wholeheartedly disagree with your view of preparedness. It's pathetic and cowardly really. Teach them to face the world as honest men with integrity. Too many of our problems stem from boys who think that carrying a "piece", makes them a man.

[Aaron O]

Thankfully, she's ok, but she's pretty jumpy. I watched her lock the door as soon as the kids were in my car this morning. I have her 9 mm hidden away at her request, but she isn't intersted in having it back.

We live on a somewhat busy street, and there's a very high end town across the street. Their police responded in no more than two minutes. The guy was spotted on the rail to trail not far from our house, but no arrests yet. The 45 cm Felt was probably traded for a rock of crack.

Aaron O - bought any guns yet? That's more frightening than any movie I've ever seen. I'm thinking hard about making a trip to the armory even though no one entered my house.

Nahhh...I thought about it long and hard, but guns have a problem. If you keep it safely, you have to unlock the safe and load it...and that takes time. By then anything can happen. To have the gun be useful, you have to keep it loaded and easily accessible, which seems unsafe and scary to me. The other problem is that I don't think I'd be willing to put in the work to learn to use it well enough. I suppose I could go with a shotgun, but that has another problem - possible collateral damage. What if it hit one of the cats?

A more fundamental issue is that I'm not sure I have the right temperament...I do have a temper and I could see myself doing something stupid if I were provoked and/or afraid. I can think of two past incidents where if I had a gun, I might have used it when I likely shouldn't have. I would have chased those cretins out of the house and taken them down in the street if I could have...and that might work in a movie, but I really don't want to be on trial, and when all was said and done, all they got was some insured stuff.

The dog is ALWAYS loaded, he doesn't need to be aimed and his mere existence discourages people. He's a total sweet heart of a dog, but he's VERY protective. Guns also don't greet you at the door and play with you. We also put up some iron around the windows and rear door. This post is in NO WAY a judgement of gun owners or any sort of political statement, it's just a personal decision based on our needs and an honest look at my weaknesses.

[rwsaunders]

Most home burglaries occur between 10:00 am and 2:00 pm as the average perp really doesn't want to encounter an obstacle to fueling their drug habit. There's a reason that ADT and other security companies do well, as a high percentage of security system purchases occur after a burglary.

Make sure that your homeowner's or renter's insurance policy is up to date, and if you're really concerned, invest in a security system...cell phone back-up included. Beyond that, just assume that it's only a matter of time until someone cases your place and tries to score your stuff. Tools like whitepages.com and google maps and google earth make it relatively easy for bad guys to do some initial homework on you.

I always joke with my wife that the ADT sign is worth more than the security system in keeping the amateurs at bay. The pros are another story.

[Fixed]

Am I missing something ?
The main thing she is okay and safe ,insurrance is there for a reason .
Celebrate that no one was hurt imho
Cheers

[Louis]

The bad guys may not know this, but I don't think I have anything in my house that would be of any interest whatsoever to them: No TV, no stereo, no I-pad, no jewelry to speak of, 15 year old car, Windows 97 PC, NT PC that I bought for $35, Shimano 9-spd bike components (for the ones that know anything about bikes) etc, etc, etc. Maybe they might want the chainsaw, other than that, I can't imagine what would be of interest.

Oh, there are two bottles of beer in the fridge, but given that they are in 750 ml bottles with a cork, there's a decent chance they might not even realize that it's beer.

[rwsaunders]

The bad guys may not know this, but I don't think I have anything in my house that would be of any interest whatsoever to them: No TV, no stereo, no I-pad, no jewelry to speak of, 15 year old car, Windows 97 PC, NT PC that I bought for $35, Shimano 9-spd bike components (for the ones that know anything about bikes) etc, etc, etc. Maybe they might want the chainsaw, other than that, I can't imagine what would be of interest.

Oh, there are two bottles of beer in the fridge, but given that they are in 750 ml bottles with a cork, there's a decent chance they might not even realize that it's beer.

Louis...did you buy the Unabomber's place after he was sent to Supermax? :cool:

[Wilkinson4]

And yet we still vote these fools in! Sorry, couldnt help myself. That sucks, I hate thieving thieves. No honor.

mIKE

[thwart]

Am I missing something ?
I know I have a brain injury but taking a human life for a few material items does not seem to balance in my simple mind . The main thing she is okay and safe ,insurrance is there for a reason .
Celebrate that no one was hurt imho
Cheers

What brain injury?

You got it exactly right.

More guns, and encouraging their use, is not the correct answer to anything.

Unfortunately, I think the NRA propaganda machine has had its intended effects on some others here.

[SamIAm]

Am I missing something ?
I know I have a brain injury but taking a human life for a few material items does not seem to balance in my simple mind . The main thing she is okay and safe ,insurrance is there for a reason .
Celebrate that no one was hurt imho
Cheers

I certainly wouldn't want to take life unnecessarily, but I am not about to assume that its ok to let people break into my house with us inside and hope they are just there to take a few material items.

I would absolutely, to the extent possible, warn a potential intruder to cease and desist. Should they continue to force entry, I would shoot them without hesitation.

[Louis]

Louis...did you buy the Unabomber's place after he was sent to Supermax? :cool:

I think he used Simplex Retrofriction. ;)

[gdw]

Two weeks ago we had an extremely messed up man [CU student, transient, drug crazed local?] try to force his was into our house at 5:00 in the morning. I grabbed the first weapon handy, a knife, while she dialed 911. After seeing how big the guy was I traded in the knife for a revolver and waited for our inept local police to arrive. The guy continued trying to get into the house even though I told him we had called 911 until he spotted the cruiser turning onto our street. The cops were slow responding and didn't take the incident seriously when they finally arrived. The guy they assumed was a hammered student, none live in our area, managed to easily evade them.

I've used and owned firearms since I was a kid. I've always kept them secured in one room and the ammunition in another. After that incident they're more accessable and I will not hesitate to use them as a last resort to protect my household.

[mistermo]

Two weeks ago we had an extremely messed up man [CU student, transient, drug crazed local?] try to force his was into our house at 5:00 in the morning. I grabbed the first weapon handy, a knife, while she dialed 911. After seeing how big the guy was I traded in the knife for a revolver and waited for our inept local police to arrive. The guy continued trying to get into the house even though I told him we had called 911 until he spotted the cruiser turning onto our street. The cops were slow responding and didn't take the incident seriously when they finally arrived. The guy they assumed was a hammered student, none live in our area, managed to easily evade them.

I've used and owned firearms since I was a kid. I've always kept them secured in one room and the ammunition in another. After that incident they're more accessable and I will not hesitate to use them as a last resort to protect my household.

Years ago, I moved to Dallas, into an apartment complex. I drove cross-country and when I realized I wouldn't arrive until 2am, I called the office and let them know. No worries, they said. They'd leave the door of my empty unit unlocked, then meet me in the morning.

As expected, I arrived at 2am, but was dismayed to find out that the unit they'd assigned me to was still locked, contrary to their promise. I decided to climb two stories up the wall to the back patio door. Locked. I tried to force my way in. No luck. I tried the window looking on to the patio, unlocked. I forced the window open and was halfway in when I saw a guy in his underwear, who started yelling. I was as startled as he. Since I was two stories up, I didn't have an easy way to retreat. We both calmed down and, after our adrenaline subsided, we had a good laugh.

Turns out the apartment complex had given me the wrong unit number. I'd forced my way into the unit they'd given me, which wasn't mine. This is an example of where I could have easily been killed by an overzealous Texas gun owner who was intent on "defending his property from an intruder".

I've been held up at gunpoint. I lived. So did the perpetrator. I prefer that over almost any other outcome imaginable with a gun.

[firerescuefin]

That's a very nice story....and very nice of you to put your and your families well being behind that of a house thief. You enter my house as a thief, I will protect my family (i.e. Wife, Kids, Self), because unlike you, I do not know the intentions of the intruder. Seeing that home invasions sometimes end in rape, murder, etc. people entering my house by breaking in won't receive the benefit of the doubt.

Your clouding of the issue and making out people protecting their lives, families, and property from thieves and worse forcing entry into their houses as somehow short sighted or your intellectual/moral inferior is pathetic.

[etu]

We recently had an attempted break-in during the day. Fortunately our neighbors were home and scared him off.

We ended up getting an alarm system and a Doberman. Unfortunately my wife turned out to be allergic to the dog.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon9.gif

Kept the alarm system, but the pup had to go. Still think a big dog is a better than an alarm system. It's was a lot of work taking care of him, but I learned rewards of dog ownership are many. I even didn't mind having to walk him at 6AM in the morning. Oh well...

[Louis]

The whole "my home is my castle" doctrine is complicated. I think it comes down to how comfortable you are using deadly force on someone who may or may not be a serious threat to you, perceived or in reality.

Recently laws have been evolving, giving folks much more leeway in using deadly force, regardless of how much threat they themselves were under. IMO that's the tricky part, and there are lots of ramifications. There are a number of cases out there of someone being killed in someone's house or property with the "invader" having no weapon other than his (always a guy) bare hands.

We'll see where it all ends up.

[thwart]

That's a very nice story....and very nice of you to put your and your families well being behind that of a house thief.

Your clouding of the issue and making out people protecting their lives, families, and property from thieves and worse forcing entry into their houses as somehow short sighted or your intellectual/moral inferior is pathetic.

Hey, I must have a browser problem. Stupid thing somehow deleted the post that justified that reply...

[Vientomas]

The whole "my home is my castle" doctrine is complicated. I think it comes down to how comfortable you are using deadly force on someone who may or may not be a serious threat to you, perceived or in reality.

Recently laws have been evolving, giving folks much more leeway in using deadly force, regardless of how much threat they themselves were under. IMO that's the tricky part, and there are lots of ramifications. There are a number of cases out there of someone being killed in someone's house or property with the "invader" having no weapon other than his (always a guy) bare hands.

We'll see where it all ends up.

Agreed. Using deadly force is complicated and is usually effectuated in a stressful environment.

[tiretrax]

I only consider the gun because the guy lunged at my wife. I don't care about the property - it can usually be replaced. I've been burglarized twice - once in Austin, once in D.C. I don't want to talk some crackhead down from the ceiling when he's breaking in through the back door.

As far as the breaking into the apartment story, I would have slept in the car. Was the complex in The Villages? Bimbos love to work for Lincoln Properties.

[gdw]

Mistermo
Your incident was a simple mistake involving two rational people. Ours involved a large aggressive man most likely under the influence of some substance. There's more to the story but the bottom line is he kept trying to force his way in after being told that we had called the police and only stopped when he spotted a patrol car.

[firerescuefin]

Hey, I must have a browser problem. Stupid thing somehow deleted the post that justified that reply...

You should have that checked out.

[Aaron O]

Deleted - nonproductive post.

[gasman]

Using deadly force is like plunking down a $100 bill on the table in front of you. You're betting. If you win you keep the $100 bill. If you lose, you're going to lose a LOT more than the $100. You will be at the minimum cuffed and detained if not brought into the station. You open yourself to criminal charges and civil suits. You better be dang sure what you are doing, why you are doing it and when to use deadly force. Your life or a loved one's life needs to be clearly threatened and you better know your local laws.
Yes, I own a handgun and have been to multi-day defensive and tactical handgun classes. I have a concealed carry permit. I know how to shoot really well but will probably never use a gun except in a very narrow set of circumstances. I have carried outside the home exactly once.
Someone robbing my house is not one of those circumstances where I will shoot unless they are threatening me. 99% of thieves are going to run away if you appear and no matter where you live shooting someone in the back will get you jail time.

[Louis]

Agreed. Using deadly force is complicated and is usually effectuated in a stressful environment.

Others will probably disagree, but personally I think that if folks truly were interested in protecting themselves with reasonable and proportionate force there would be a lot more weapons out there that fired baton rounds.

[thwart]

You should have that checked out.

Thanks, I will.

'course, suppose it could be a server problem... ;)

[parris]

There are a few things that come to mind. The "average" crook who's "just" looking for property is generally looking for an empty house or unlocked car. Then there are those who are under the influence of any number of substances who's inhibitions have been lowered to where they aren't thinking to check if people are home or not, then there are the ones who don't care if people are home and they're intent on robbery and or worse.

The first group is is generally not going to be encountered by the people they're ripping off. The other groups are potentially VERY dangerous and it's just not a simple matter of saying weather or not they're in the house to steal or do worse. But to say that someone is wrong to protect their family members when there's an intruder in the house is myopic and judgmental without knowing the circumstances that are involved.

There are bad people out there who have no care at all about anyone other than themselves.

[RacerJRP]

Bro...that really sucks...If possible, get out of there. I would imagine, especially for your girl, that it would be very hard to come back to the scene of the crime without long term anxiety over the event...and fear of another (maybe with her present the second time)

Anything come of your plans to move out to the Denver area?


We are still very much planning to move out to the Denver area. Can't wait actually! We both graduate in May, so hopefully not too long after that we can get ourselves together..

Plan to be there for a week or so at the end June to get things done in prep for the move.

[mistermo]

Mistermo
Your incident was a simple mistake involving two rational people. Ours involved a large aggressive man most likely under the influence of some substance. There's more to the story but the bottom line is he kept trying to force his way in after being told that we had called the police and only stopped when he spotted a patrol car.

I understand your point and hope you understand mine. I doubt anyone is purely rational at 2am when someone is trying to forcibly enter, first the front door, then the patio door, then the bedroom window as I mistakenly did. And "simple" mistakes happen all the time.

It appears that if I'd accidentally picked the houses of a few posting here, I'd be injured or dead. That's my point and one that shouldn't be casually dismissed.

It sounds like your security system did it's job. I'm glad the guy never made it in.

[William]

To the OP, very sorry to hear that. I've been there as well and it really sucks.

On the thread drift...
One of the problems that always come up in a discussion like this is that some folks think if you have a firearm you'll go off spraying rounds at the drop of a hat at the first sign of danger. In most circumstances that is about as far from the truth as one can get. Most rational human beings don't want to shoot another person. That hesitation also leads to situations where the perp gets the drop on the gun owner....hence the often used saying "If you're going to carry, be prepared to use it if needed." Imo, anyone opting to own a firearm should train regularly and study to understand the implications of use. It's a responsibility that most responsible gun owners undertake. I've trained for many years and I know how to control or escalate my reactions to take things to the level that is needed to control or end a situation. That being said, no amount of training is going to make it 100% effective. All you can do is train to the best of your ability to improve your chances of reacting appropriately and coming out of a dangerous situation on top & alive.

I think it's obvious that a number of people here have had their home burglarized or have been confronted at their homes by possibly dangerous people....my self included. Again, the majority of us are not looking to hurt or put someone down. The problem is that you have no idea what the intentions are of someone who is willing to break into your home. If they are willing to do it while the owners are home that is even more dangerous. They know on some level that they could be confronted and it is a risk they are willing to take. What if it's someone who has done time and they don't want to go back. You realize what's going on and are confronted, you've seen them, can describe what they look like...now what? They run out the door? Great, but what if they don't? The problem is, you just don't know. Is that a risk you're willing to take with yourself and your loved ones? For me it's not. When they make the decision to break into your home they are saying they have no considerations for your rights and are willing to do or take whatever they wish. My feeling is that if one chooses to disregard my and my families rights and safety by breaking in, their rights were left outside. I like LEO's and I've worked with them over the years, but the problem is they won't get there until after the fact. If you hear something and call before a confrontation thats one thing, but if you are confronted before you can do that then what?

I don't want a confrontation, but if forced to I will. As I always say: I would rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. Or the variation I use when people ask why I train so much: I would rather know it and not need it, than need it and not know it.






William

PS: I'm reminded of the following saying:

Learn the ways to preserve, rather than destroy.

* Avoid rather than check;
* Check rather than hurt;
* Hurt rather than maim;
* Maim rather than kill,
* Kill rather than be killed

For all life is precious nor can any be replaced.


It boils down to control that comes through training. Take it only as far as required to end a confrontation. It also means...Be prepared.

.

[rugbysecondrow]

Years ago, I moved to Dallas, into an apartment complex. I drove cross-country and when I realized I wouldn't arrive until 2am, I called the office and let them know. No worries, they said. They'd leave the door of my empty unit unlocked, then meet me in the morning.

As expected, I arrived at 2am, but was dismayed to find out that the unit they'd assigned me to was still locked, contrary to their promise. I decided to climb two stories up the wall to the back patio door. Locked. I tried to force my way in. No luck. I tried the window looking on to the patio, unlocked. I forced the window open and was halfway in when I saw a guy in his underwear, who started yelling. I was as startled as he. Since I was two stories up, I didn't have an easy way to retreat. We both calmed down and, after our adrenaline subsided, we had a good laugh.

Turns out the apartment complex had given me the wrong unit number. I'd forced my way into the unit they'd given me, which wasn't mine. This is an example of where I could have easily been killed by an overzealous Texas gun owner who was intent on "defending his property from an intruder".

I've been held up at gunpoint. I lived. So did the perpetrator. I prefer that over almost any other outcome imaginable with a gun.

A lady friend had an intruder in her home in a similarly innocent story. She lives in row home in Capital Hill (they all look the same) and a drunk guy who was visiting a friend walked into the wrong home on accident. Nobody was shot, but there was some hilarity that took place (her naken boyfriend attacking the guy). I can only imagine the drunk guys face, thinking he is entering his friends house only to see this naked guy attack him.

[rugbysecondrow]

The whole "my home is my castle" doctrine is complicated. I think it comes down to how comfortable you are using deadly force on someone who may or may not be a serious threat to you, perceived or in reality.

Recently laws have been evolving, giving folks much more leeway in using deadly force, regardless of how much threat they themselves were under. IMO that's the tricky part, and there are lots of ramifications. There are a number of cases out there of someone being killed in someone's house or property with the "invader" having no weapon other than his (always a guy) bare hands.

We'll see where it all ends up.

It is not "home is my castle" so much as "home, this is where my wife, kids and I sleep and ought to be safe". Violate that and there are consequences. Those consequences could vary depending on the situation, but there ought to be consquences.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have read where people have used motion activated cameras to capture criminals, similar to the cameras used by hunters to sight deer in the woods.

[aaronv]

When the thread turns the corner to firearms and self defense the community becomes corrosive.
I am sure there are any number of places online to discuss these issues with the benefit of not throwing a wrench into the usual barely civil discussions about tire size and frame material. :)

[skijoring]

When the thread turns the corner to firearms and self defense the community becomes corrosive.
I am sure there are any number of places online to discuss these issues with the benefit of not throwing a wrench into the usual barely civil discussions about tire size and frame material. :)

Campy vs. Shimano

Chainlubes

wheelsouttaboxes vs handbuilts

helmets

[William]

Campy vs. Shimano

Chainlubes

wheelsouttaboxes vs handbuilts

helmets

You forgot...

mirrors
&
Sun glasses over or under helmet straps.




;);):)
William

[Aaron O]

So how does wearing or not wearing a helmet effect your gun selection, and would having a gun necessitate the taking of a lane?

[SamIAm]

would having a gun necessitate the taking of a lane?

No, but it would facilitate the taking of the lane as well as help to quickly resolve any conflict arising out of such a maneuver:)

[mistermo]

William,

Again I get your point and hope you get mine. So let's put some things in perspective.

One of the problems that always come up in a discussion like this is that some folks think if you have a firearm you'll go off spraying rounds at the drop of a hat at the first sign of danger.

That is not my assertion and not one based in reality. I've never known a gun owner, ANY gun owner, even military, to "spray rounds at the drop of a hat at the first sign of danger". I've never met a sensible person who holds that view. So let's get back to the center.

Most rational human beings don't want to shoot another person.

Agreed. And I hope you will agree with me that, as humans, we behave irrationally. I could talk about data that shows that handgun ownership is irrational, but I won't go there.

But I hope you'll WILL agree with me that our human neurological system is designed to become increasingly IRRATIONAL as the level of fear and stress increases. (see amygdala and limbic system).

That being said, no amount of training is going to make it 100% effective. All you can do is train to the best of your ability to improve your chances of reacting appropriately and coming out of a dangerous situation on top & alive.

Again, I agree. And the more one prepares/trains, the more one can hope that rational thought has a chance against the irrational thoughts that the limbic system is producing.

Why isn't compulsory training embraced by gunowners and the NRA?

The problem is that you have no idea what the intentions are of someone who is willing to break into your home. [edited.... what if, what if...] The problem is, you just don't know.

When they make the decision to break into your home they are saying they have no considerations for your rights and are willing to do or take whatever they wish. My feeling is that if one chooses to disregard my and my families rights and safety by breaking in, their rights were left outside.

Again, agreed, but only partially. You assume that anyone who breaks into your home, means you harm. As some stories here illustrate, an assumption like this is frequently wrong, and this incorrect assumption, fueled by fear and irrational thought, may cost an innocent person their life.

Another story: When I was younger, I had a girlfriend who "invited" me over late one night, leaving the backdoor unlocked. Unbeknownst to her (and me), her father had armed the alarm (on a delay). I was in the middle of the house when the alarm began screaming, then came face to face with a father who was decidedly irrational. I meant no "harm" to anyone, though fathers may disagree. When facing her dad at that moment, I'm glad that I didn't have to rely on his rational thought to prevent him from using a gun on me.

[mistermo]

When the thread turns the corner to firearms and self defense the community becomes corrosive.
I am sure there are any number of places online to discuss these issues with the benefit of not throwing a wrench into the usual barely civil discussions about tire size and frame material. :)

Agreed. I'm done.

[William]

I think we agree on a lot of points.

Again, agreed, but only partially. You assume that anyone who breaks into your home, means you harm. As some stories here illustrate, an assumption like this is frequently wrong, and this incorrect assumption may cost an innocent person their life.


No, I don't assume that they are harmless. I also don't assume they mean to do grievous harm either. The text you quoted (below) just pointed out the fact that there is no way for you to know what their intentions are. My point was I will attempt to react with the appropriate amount of force needed to end the confrontation. That includes starting with attempts at verbal deescalation and working from there dependent on the perps reactions.

Originally Posted by William View Post
The problem is that you have no idea what the intentions are of someone who is willing to break into your home. [edited.... what if, what if...] The problem is, you just don't know.


I guess we will have to agree to partially agree.:)





William

[thegunner]

unrelated to guns... you've finally given me that last kick in the butt to actually go renew my renter's insurance. hopefully you're covered as well.